Those with a frozen ATPL [Archive]

Shanks

23rd Jan 2002, 15:55

Spang,

Thanks for posting, 4 out of 50 employed from, reputedly, the best course available; now that's a scary statisitc. I'm guessing that at least a couple of those had friends in a position to present their CV's to the right people as well.

I'm considering taking the same route as you, but I'm very worried about having to lay out 10 years worth of savings AND taking on a loan.

We get to read motivational postings from those who've made it (I'm certainly not knocking them, they keep me hoping!), but not many from those who've just achieved a frozen ATPL and are struggling to find that first job. I always assumed that was simply because those that found a job stopped reading the wannabes forum. Please keep us informed of your progress, and any news you hear about the other 50.

Good Luck, I hope something turns up for you in the very near future, and that we'll be reading a motivational story from yourself.

spang

23rd Jan 2002, 19:10

Thank for your response. I dont want to be seen as a gruppy old maggot. I'm not, I'm hopeful as anyone else. . .That me, the other 400 UK fATPLers(re-BAPLA Conference)plus the X number of Europeans and commonwealth hopefuls.

I could have bought a bigger house, or a new porsche, ferrari, etc. And a still have job a decent income in a good company.

. .All I have is a little blue plastic book that nobody wants and an empty bank account.

For those who are puzzled call OATS yourselves and ask for list of those who have found jobs in the last 12 months.

This is not just since september.

I tried finding out what happened to all the old students. . .Nothing its a void,

Yes the odd lucky one got through from approx '96-'99. Now NOBODY and AIR LINGUS are about to dump another 80 Pilots. Thats got to knock out RYAN AIR.( The only low hours recruiter left).

Surely if your going to spend £75K it worth doing some research. I did in 1998-99, I was told it was rosey by everyone, friends and airlines.

Look whats happened now!!!

(£75K..... you will its the odd extra hour or two, accom, food ,supplies. You'd be amazed how it mounts up. and nobody finishes on time. I was 2nd out of 12.)

. .If I had any idea it was this tough I wouldn't have done it.

WHEN THE MONIES IN THE BANK, YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOUR EGOS FLUSHED WITH THE IDEA OF BEING A PILOT.. .JUST DO THE COURSE AND YOUR THERE! Hmmmmm.....

AND WHEN ITS SPENT YOUR TREATED LIKE A TWO BIT SALESMAN BY MOST COMPANIES,ITS SOUL DISTROYING.

But still they'll be folk with dads money lining up to blow it.

But if its yours, as mine WAS, think very long and hard, because you'll sacrafice everything for it!

and finally PLEASE, PLEASE,PLEASE DONT BORROW THE MONEY.. .I know guys whose parents borrowed against their homes.... and their whole families are now in jepardy.. .I'm serious, its true.

You have been warned.

mattince

23rd Jan 2002, 21:11

Oh my GOD!! You're really getting scared now mate - I'm in the process of filling out my application form to go to OAT at the end of April. I got my Class 1 last week so am just waiting for the certificate now.

OAT have drastically cut down their courses. What was one new course evry 4 weeks is now one course every 3 months it seems! The last entry was in the first week on Jan and the next is the end on April and the next one after that planned for July/August!

So I'm aiming to go in April and shall work my ass off to do the best I can. I must admit that mummy & daddy came into some money and are funding most of it but I am having to pay it back and have saving of my own of approx £8K.

It is a gamble to go at the moment but I figur ehtat I shall be graduating in summer 2003 and hopefully things will be better for the job market by then. I guess with uncertainty, I shall try and work harder and try to be a cut above the rest even in my small class of 18.

If it all goes pear shape then I will at least know that I am in a better position than before and not working in some crummy office in Manchester! I have always wanted to be a pilot and will have achieved my life ambition! I also know that I will be at the best school at Oxford so will hoepfully have peace-of-mind on the course. Won;t an OAT education stand me out from the crowd?

If it's really unlikely I will get a job in Europe then I could go work for BWIA in Trinidad, West Indies. I was born there, some of my family are there, my uncle is the chief pilot and I could get a great type rating on their MD-80s and Tri-Stars!!

What do you think? What else can I do but gamble on the outcome of a job at the end of it? If it matters at all, how old are you? How did you do on the OAT course?

Am I really risking it all?

Cheers mate.

MAX

23rd Jan 2002, 22:22

If thats the case why go to OATS at all? To fly for BWIA surely you will need the Trinidad and Tobago licenses to fly the type no matter what contacts you have. The market here doesnt look like improving for the 200hr cadet. Go to the sun, fly, get 'that' job and with the fortune you will save buy a house in Trinidad. No one will hand it to you on a plate over here believe me.

Good Luck.

MAX <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

13579

23rd Jan 2002, 22:32

I've got a note from,Easyjet this week. Everyone outside flying says to me why don't you get a job with Easyjet or Ryanair, they're looking for people. The truth is, that these companies and all the others are inundated with CV's and applications, probably in the hundreds, with many pilots being type rated and experienced. I've 1500hrs+, Impeccable CV, and the only route I'm finding to these interviews, is by networking. A CV or application just isn't enough right now. So I'm sure there are and will be jobs, but realise that however good you think you are, competition is fierce at the moment, and getting noticed takes a bit more than 400hrs and a bit of fancy flying, which by the way will not be half as fancy as someone with 1000hrs+. So good luck, but be realistic. As they say down the job centre, getting a job is a full time job in itself, and at this moment in time, I think thats very true.

spang

23rd Jan 2002, 23:29

Just quickly I'm in my early thirties. Not the best age to be setting out on a new career I know, but its my life ambition too. Thats my only hinderance if it is one. I know many airline personnel coming from a related industry. I did very well on the course. They like to get you through in as shorter time as possible and I did. 20's 30's 40's. Same story were all up ....creek. All of my BA friends got their jobs but the later courses didnt. I think LIngus and BMI dropped all their cadets, this was well after my time, so I could be inaccurate.

the guys who've pulled off jobs crept in before september. Not the best of the best, good alright, just managed to be on the top of the application skip and made good of interview.

You maybe right about it being better in 2003, who knows.

Theres just so many god dam experienced pilots out there now, let alone the steam of newly qualified like me.

All I can say is you and others have a window into my world and of my fellow student and I'll post the straight facts as I receive them.

Remember, you havent spent it yet. And you're doing your research the choice is still yours.

MagCheck

7th Feb 2002, 04:05

I must congratulate Spang. Finally a person such as my self who have been thru OATS and spent a mere fortune - in excess of 75K and nothing more than a plastic book to show for it.

To all those who are considering starting an ATPL course, I would reiterate Spangs comment. Do research!! Ask the awkward questions, like how many of your students have got jobs recently, because I'll tell you it's hardly any.

And like Spang said it's not down to how good you are either. I know of people who have recently got jobs with with an Irish carrier who I would go as far as to say where OK pilots - failed the odd flight exam & ground school, but most definatly not the good or great students. Yet the ones who never failed a flight exam or ground school and have gleaming reports are still strugguling even after sending out 50, 100, 150 etc CV's.

The OATS name is far from as good as it used to be. For example look at the Ryan Air application, they no longer ask where you got your FATPL from!

One point/question I would make here (and any one considering to off load a vast some of money should be asking is - whats the first time pass rate for IRT's? At Oxford it's rather low. As things currently stand OATS statistics are bring down the National average!!

The last comment I would like to make is this. Even though I had some good times at OATS, if I had to do it all again and I know what I know now, then no I would not do it at Oxford.

Each to your own. You pay your money and you wait and see.

Loony_Pilot

7th Feb 2002, 07:16

Well here's my story..

I did my course at OATS.. finished in Jan 2000. My course overran considerably.. mainly due to the fact I kept being bumped so the sponsored students could go first and that my twin instructor wasnt part of the old boys club at OATS. . .I spent the best part of £75-80k once you take into account accomodation, food, extra hours, other living expenses etc. I was and still am fortunate to have very supportive parents and

OATS were ****** all help after my course, they had my cash, I had my little blue book from the nice people at Gatwick and that was that.

OATS do "promise" you that you'll easily get a job after graduation.. I know of a some people that got jobs, plenty that didnt.

All I would advocate is that you do your research very thoroughly.. the tiny benefit you may get from going to OATS is outweighed by the huge extra cost...

If I had my time again I WOULD have done things differently.

In my personal experience most Flight Training companies/organisations treat their customers badly, I have been the victim of a few, but also fortunate to find a few that treat their customers well and dont try to trick you in any way.

LP

jasonjdr

7th Feb 2002, 14:43

Spang, Mag check, Looney...... and me!

Dito all the comments made by the afore mentioned above. I went to OATS all guns blazing and full of belief. I also sat in front of the TV at OATS on 11/09 and slowly realised that I would be going back to my old job, baring some minor miracle.

I, like many, paid for the course myself. Graduated in Oct 2001 and am lucky enough to have my old employers take me back. I'm 31 and not getting any younger. I sit here and worry about losing my currency, re-sitting my IR, and waiting for the endless pools of experience which is currently available to run out so that the airlines will finally consider someone like me.

Depressing, I know, but for all of you considering a jump into the 'wild blue yonder'. Go for it! I did have a fantastic time. Work your bollocks off and make sure that you get a first time IR pass and over 85% av. in your ground exams. It may help you to get a foot in the door. (and lets face it everything helps!). There is no quick or easy way, no magic formula to get your licence (read some of the comments on this site and you can plainly see that). Its a combination of many; right place, right time, right person, right grades, know the right person........etc.

Just for the stats. Out of my course 9 were BA and all were put on hold indefinatley (this was the same for the course before). Another 9 were self-abusers, and needless to say job less. The last person I heared of getting a job from OATS and self-abused was from a course graduating somewhere back in Jan 2001 and was hired within a month.

I do believe those starting now will be in a better position than me and my colleagues. the market will have picked up, and there MIGHT be prospects straight out of OATS! I do remember when I first started the airlines kept coming around OATS looking for new pilots........oh, if only.

seatrumpeter

7th Feb 2002, 22:02

Wow,. .I feel like topping myself having read this thread. Before I do, I have a few comments

I have FAA and now, IAA licenses (just finished the IAA ones). I have 1,200 hours and I can't find work in the US. I work as a flight instructor, but I'm tired of that and ready to move on if I can. Having just got the Irish Licenses, I'll send out resumes to anyone who'll take them and see what happens. It at least gives me a sliver of hope.

There are days when I'm fed up and think I'll never get there. There are other days when I'm out flying on a sunny day and I realize that choosing to fly was the best thing I ever did and I'm certain that I will find that job I want, that I will beat out the thousands of other candidates looking for the same job. I find some baby step to take to help me keep moving forward and keep the dream alive.

I've been broke for five years because I chose to fly. The dream seemed closer until 9/11 - another on a long series of set backs.

But at the end of the day, whether I make it or not, I'll have tried. I am a pilot now, damn it, and I always will be. Best of all, I'm on the inside of the fence, I get to roll down the runway, even if it is in a 152, and launch into the magnificant sky. I'm the envy of those on the outside of the airport perimeter fence.

I think of the alternative - never having persued my dream, and it's unbearable.

So stop complaining about things that are out of your control and do something about it. Find a way to keep flying, keep adding hours, keep your skills current. Keep sending resumes. Keep meeting people, keep trying, keep the dream alive. If you really want it, you will get it; that more than anything, I believe.

Biz

7th Feb 2002, 22:45

Ok, this is not meant in any derogatory sense to you guys who have put yourself through the heartache, but what I find absolutely mind boggling having read these stories, there still appears to be people out there willing to stake £70k on an ATPL from a particular "institution." Surely there is enough evidence in these stories alone to suggest maybe you swallow your pride and get your ATPL for half the cost by doing the back-to-back modular route?!. .You still end up with your little blue book at the end of it, within the same time frame, but without making you destitute while you repay £75K!

Just a thought, but this time last year I had arranged to go to Jerez January 2002. I re-hought my plans and decided to pocket £30K, and hopefully obtain a license with the other £30K.. .That boils down to the fact that I'll be able to afford a lot more beers than you guys who still feel the need to shell out £75K! :)

icebox

7th Feb 2002, 23:01

Hi People

One quick question. What and where is Jerez?

I thank you

Ice.

And before any of you say it I know that's 2 questions.

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

calypso

8th Feb 2002, 01:46

Bae Systems has a school in Jerez, Southern Spain. Top equipment and very well organized but expensive...

hope this answers

cal

peake

8th Feb 2002, 03:52

<a href="http://www.buzzaway.com/where_we_fly/jerez.html" target="_blank">http://www.buzzaway.com/where_we_fly/jerez.html</a>

they've got a little map :)

Barney Stubble

8th Feb 2002, 17:48

Well said Seatrumpeter!

To those guys who recently (2000/01) graduated OATS, I remember when you guys were bright eyed bushy tailed chaps who managed to cobble together a small fortune for a CAP 509 cse with a shiny rhs in a jet at the end of it.

At the time I thought it all sounded a bit unrealistic and now I guess we know it was, even without our mate Ossama bin-Liner.

However, determination nearly always pays off, so hang in there. Consider, as I did, the flight instructor route to that 1000 hrs where airlines actually consider your cv. Crap pay but good fun, capacity/skill building, keeps you current and shows prospective employers that you really are determined. An instructor rating is £5k, peanuts compared to £75k, and there are still jobs around.

Worth a thought? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Keaty

8th Feb 2002, 18:14

Bae is alot cheaper than OATS. Your Flying, groundschool, first attempt at exams/flight tests, accomadation, food (some free beer on very special occasions!) AND your graduation meal (which I am looking forward to the most!) is all included. Add money for the weekends (which are a hell of alot cheaper than in England, drinks are half the price and three times the measurements!), parties, toiletries and the occasional hair cut. And another 10% on top of that as your Contingency/final reserve/Alternate what ever you want to call it and you will be sorted! . . If I remember correctly then there has been around 4 courses joined since september (about 12 per course I´d say) and another course turning up next week. . . I am very pleased so far, we had some BA cadets from Oxford and Michigan to do their LOFT course, if I remember correctly, and they loved it here.. . There are still Airtours (sorry, My Travel!), BA, Aer Lingus, Bruk air and Air Malta cadets here, but I don´t beleive they have got their jobs at the end of the course. I have heard of quite a few people getting jobs since 11/09 but not enough to be comfortable with. Hope this was of some use to someone! wingman

BillyFish2

8th Feb 2002, 18:35

Well wingman, you certainly brightened up my Friday. Not all doom and gloom. Good to hear.. .Great to hear cadets still there - know of any more on the way? I know, I know, unlikely but you never know.

Just in case you are missing north European weather, it pissing down outside with winds blowing up a storm and it's not very warm either.

Barney,. .What does that £5K get instructor wise? If I had say an integrated couse under my belt, would that instructor course be for teaching PPL or more?

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]

Keaty

8th Feb 2002, 18:49

Glad to hear the weather is doing good things in the UK, it didn´t look too hopeful on the met charts this morning I have to say! Well, must dash to the pool, Ciao!

BillyFish2

8th Feb 2002, 18:54

You lucky, lucky, b*stard,..... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

moleslayer

8th Feb 2002, 19:13

<a href="http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Sounds/lucky.wav" target="_blank">Here,here,matey !!</a>

Grandad Flyer

9th Feb 2002, 13:12

I cannot believe that all you guys spent that much money without doing a lot of research first. If I was spending that kind of money I would want far more info from the school on career paths of past students, pass rates, average time to get licences, etc. I would want hard facts from all the schools.. .Also, I cannot believe you only listened to the salesman! Its a bit like going into a Skoda garage and asking them what car to buy. They tell you that the Skoda is the best car you will find. So you hand over your cash. I think not. But that is just what you have all done at Oxford. . .Before I ever set foot in an aircraft I did so much research. I sussed out early on that Oxford was not all it says it is. I searched out airline pilots and asked them about the industry and how hard/easy it is to get a job. I asked them about reputations of schools. I found out what you need to stay current.. .Nowhere in Oxford's contract does it say they will find you a job. Even the most basic research will throw up the fact that aviation usually runs on a 7 year cycle, and having just had a very good period for new pilots, it was bound to turn down again. What happens here usually happens in America a year or so earlier. Anyone reading the paper could see what was happening. . .Who said that getting high marks in your written exams or being one of the best on your course will help in getting a job? . .Who said that having an OATS CPL/IR would make you a cut above the others? . .Certainly not the industry or anyone doing recruiting.. .OATS are very good salespeople, obviously. There are some very gullible people out there.. .I looked at all the schools, the different courses and routes available and chose my own route (modular).. .I planned a way of keeping current and building hours at very low cost, both before and after my CPL. I planned what I was going to do after getting my licence, in order to have enough money to live on (no rich parents unfortunately).. .I started trying to make contacts and keep up with what was happening in the industry.. .It was very obvious to me that 1000 hours and a frozen ATPL were the minimum paper requirements, and the rest was down to getting an interview and performing well at it. . .If everyone has the same qualifications and experience then it is the person they are looking for.. .Anyone, rather than billowing in your own misery, think laterally and try and figure out what to do next. We are at the low end of the 7 year cycle which means there is only one way to go. This summer will see airlines starting to recruit again, and it won't take long before all the redundant pilots will have got jobs again. . .However, the recruiters are looking for licence, hours, and currency as well as motivation and determination.. .So make 100% sure you are current. Forget the fact that you have gone to OATS, it is totally irrelevant. Even if you were the best student. According to OATS. So what? No-one is interested.. .And start doing your research into airlines. Find out everything about them, what experience levels they have recruited at before, what their fleet is, what their future plans are, have they ordered more aircraft, etc.etc.. .Then you will have the research and knowledge behind you to get yourself an interview.. .Also make sure your CV is as good as it can be.. .Good luck.

The Boy Lard

9th Feb 2002, 20:49

Dear most,

Having re-read this post several times (And with a few exceptions) I am staggered to see that some people seem to think that just because you have been to OATS that the aviation world should give you a job at the drop of a hat!

Generally you get your job on merit, hard work, networking and luck, the school you went to doesnt owe you anything, all they are there for is to get you through your exams.Finito. Its not like buying a car where you get after sales service, theyve done their job, you should be grateful.

Maybe you feel hard done to, sadly the worlds like that, get used to it.

And before you flame me out of hand I'm at OATS right now and once I've finished I dont expect any favours.

Now I've lit the blue touch paper I'll stand well clear.........

TBL

peake

10th Feb 2002, 00:48

GrandadFlyer, thanks for a balanced post (neither excessively motivational nor merchant of doom <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

I've been doing a couple of months reading on the subject of gaining a fATPL. IMHO it would seem to be a good time to be starting the modular route - while no one has a crystal ball - it would seem that (given the 7yrs cycle you mention) 2.5yrs down the line will be a good time to come onto the job market? One other question: You outsearched out pilots? Where? Does one just sidle up to them in the "Wright Arms" and whisper (in an Arabian accent of course) "psst, I want to be a pilot" <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Loony_Pilot

10th Feb 2002, 05:24

Just want to agree totally with Grandad Flyer..

If I had my time again.. i would certainly do things a lot differently..

Loony

Jonty

10th Feb 2002, 18:23

Those of you planning to go to into flying training in the near future read Grandad Flyers post, then print it off and read it again, once you have got totaly sick of reading it, read it some more!!!!

I went to OATS in Oct 98, did an upgrade, shiny new CPL/IR, large dept, no job. luckly I had bugeted for an instructors rating as well. Got my first job through the ATP scheam in May 2000 for 18 months I had to keep current and renew my IR, I had bugeted for that as well.

If you think that a CPL/IR is the end of the story, you are wrong, very wrong. I todays market you have to keep that current and pay for the renewals. There are cheaper options out there, which may take longer to do, but in this market that is not a problem.

JT8

10th Feb 2002, 19:05

Loony Pilot,

Care to expand on how you would have done it differently?? If you were starting your training in say 6 months, would you go down the modular route instead? . .I'm making the tough modular/integrated decision at the moment so any help would be great.

cheers,. .JT8

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: JT8 ]

scroggs

10th Feb 2002, 21:33

These stories, and many others, bear out what WWW, IFR and myself have been saying for 5 months or so now. Right after 9/11 we all said, very loaudly, that you should not sign up for an integrated course at least until there were signs of the beginnings of a recovery in the hiring market. For those already committed, we commiserated and advised that all you could do once you graduated would be to return to your old job (if possible) and try and keep yourself current until things improved. We also suggested that the modular route would perhaps be the more sensible option, as you could tailor your eventual graduation to the inevitable upturn when it came. We estimated (in Sept/Oct last year) that that recovery would take between 18 months and 3 years.. .I have seen nothing that would make me change any of the above, and I have to wonder at the wisdom of those who are still signing up for integrated courses to start in the near future!. .As for the jobs market, I can't emphasise too strongly that the situation of the last couple of years, where 200hr fATPL-qualified candidates could reasonably hope to get jobs in a jet cockpit, was an aberration in aviation history, and is unlikely to be repeated any time soon. There is a large number of experienced, type-rated pilots to be absorbed and a new generation of air-taxi, FI, and night-freight experienced pilots being created right now. The airlines, when they do return to recruiting, will look to these experienced pilots first - and those that go out and get that kind of experience somehow, instead of waiting for that elusive jet job, will reap the reward in the future.. .For the next few years, the prospect of the newly-qualified fATPL getting a jet job is very small. The industry wants, and expects, you to go and get more experience on smaller aircraft - as was always the case in the past. This has great benefits both for the aspiring airline pilot and their future employers, so actually I can't say I'm disappointed that this will be the case.. .In the meantime, be very careful how and where you spend your money!

Grandad Flyer

10th Feb 2002, 22:10

high peak,. .to answer your question, there are many places airline pilots lurk! . .For anyone who has never met an airline pilot, I suggest you start looking. Of course, there are people on pprune who are happy to answer questions, indeed I have had a number of people e-mail me and I also speak to students on the phone sometimes.. .But the best thing is to start hanging around at your local flying club or gliding club. You will generally bump into airline pilots there. Not so long ago aspiring young pilots would spend most of their spare time hanging around clubs, gleaning what info they could and helping out around the place. Sometimes people would get paid employment there too. . .People get to know your face and sometimes you may be lucky enough to get some free flying time, or at the very least a passenger seat up front in a light single going off somewhere. Offer to help out, offer to be an extra set of eyes, or do the radio. Once you get known around the place you'll start to find out so much more. I think more recently people see it as beneath them. They don't leave their egos at the door, but carry them around with their shiny new flight cases and expensive headsets. You can usually spot those who have been involved in aviation a while - they are the ones with a tatty bag for a flightcase, a cheap but good headset, and not dressed in a shirt and chinos!!!!. .Ask around. If you find an airline pilot ask if it would be possible for you to have a short chat with him/her about life as an airline pilot. Make a definite arrangement if you can, rather than just asking them loads of questions there and then. That way you can prepare, think of questions that you can't get answered elsewhere. Ask the person about their job, the lifestyle it gives, how they got started, how their company is structured, what they look for in new recruits, the name of the Chief Pilot, whatever. But also treat it more formally, in that you should go well prepared and well dressed. That person may remember you, might see you around the club, and who knows, in the future, once you've got your licence, perhaps you may be able to get a jumpseat or get that person to take your CV in for you.. .There are ways of networking.. .Personally I am happy to help anyone who has already put the effort in. I do sometimes get people mailing me asking for the most basic of info, which is freely available here and on other websites. I tend not to respond. However, someone who is obviously keen, has done their research and has good questions, I am always happy to correspond with them.. .There are ways to start networking, just start thinking about it. Airline pilots were student pilots once and most remember vividly how difficult it is in the beginning.

Barney Stubble

11th Feb 2002, 15:43

BillyFish2,

A JAR FI(R) rating will allow you to teach PPL and CPL straight off the bat. The course is 30 hrs flying plus test, plus loads of groundschool.

Coming from an integrated course you would have a better than most chance of getting an instructing job at one of the professional pilot FTO's ie. Oxford, Cabair, BAE where pay is slightly better, and it is CPL work. However, nothing wrong with PPL training, very similar to CPL anyway!

To teach instrument ratings (IR or IMC) you need to be unrestricted, and complete an upgrade course and test. Night ratings and aerobatics just require an upgrade course.

Good luck with your future flying

Barney

BillyFish2

11th Feb 2002, 16:25

Thanks Barney,

I think the way things are now and for the next 2 years or so, instructing is probably the best option really. Plus like Scroggs said earlier, someone with a year or two doing something like instructing (heading towards around 1000 hours) is going to be a much better pilot than anyone straight out of 200 hour ab-initio.

Teaching is a great learning experience. Years ago when I was funding the last couple of years of my eng. degree by teaching electronics, I went from knowing just enough to get my exams to being able to write the exam papers (and probably a text book too!) because I had to get up there and explain it and really actually know my stuff.

Of course I'd be well up for air-taxi or freight too. Who wouldn't?

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]

Megaton

11th Feb 2002, 17:19

Barney,

You don't need to be unrestricted to instruct IMC: <a href="http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4W369.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/aic/4W369.PDF</a>

Basically:

[quote] For an IMC instructors rating you need 50 hours IFR, IMC rating and complete a course with an FIC instructor, 5 hours flying and 35 hours ground,realistically it will usually take more than 5 hours cos of all the course teaching, e.g. G.H.full and ltd. panel, NDB hold, ILS, RADAR APPROACH, VOR tracking, HOLDING procedures, you also need to pass the flight test. <hr></blockquote>

rolling circle

11th Feb 2002, 18:56

[quote] A JAR FI(R) rating will allow you to teach PPL and CPL straight off the bat. <hr></blockquote>

JAR-FCL 1.330(b) reads

the issue of a CPL(A) provided that the FI(A) has completed at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes including at least 200 hours of flight instruction

Not exactly 'straight off the bat'

BillyFish2

11th Feb 2002, 19:10

rolling circle,

OK think I understand: I'll have 300 hours following 200 hour ab-initio (and 100 hours PPL few years ago), so if I got the FI qualification, I'd need at least 200 hours of PPL instruction minimum before CPL instruction?

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: BillyFish2 ]

in a spin

12th Feb 2002, 00:36

I agree with the back to back modular route. I looked at OATS and got mucked around by a certain female marketing person there. Fortunately she put me off so much I went modular, and finished off at SFT. Saved me a chunk of money, and I still completed in 14 months. Fortunate to get a job one month later (April 2000). I think it is a very brave person who puts their money up now just for OATS on their CV!!

Arkwright

12th Feb 2002, 01:07

Hate to add another dampener on things boys, but I've got an ISSUED ATPL, with all the boxes ticked, over 3000 hours, with almost 1000 on light piston twins..........and my CV's mostly are not even acknowleged, let alone get a sniff of a job!. .DON'T SIGN UP TO ANYTHING AT PRESENT!!

chocksaway

12th Feb 2002, 02:32

Firstly I want to say that I do not intend to cause anyone offence by my views here, but I need to add my comments and thoughts.

I have been researching getting a frozen ATPL for nearly two years and have been studying in detail the threads on PPRUNE for over a month. This thread has been for me the most informative thread on the site - and I would like to thank Grandad Flyer & Scroggs for their comments.

I think that all the clues a wannabe needs about aviation and its future are right here on this thread. It seems ( especially from recent postings ) that there are a large number of self funded students that have simply not studied the aviation industry before embarking on training and are also wanting jobs straight away with the airlines ( How many of them applied for jobs such as charter flying, Flight instruction etc to build hours ). There are threads in PPRUNES archives that are over 12-18 months old that are already painting a dire picture for learning to fly, i.e. redundances, global economic slow down etc etc. Now I will be funding my own training ( partly my own savings and an unsecured loan ) and I am not a clever person but even I checked things out way before 11/9 and decided to hang on.

Now for my positive and optimistic views! There are other threads that suggest that flight trainging schools are only now starting to cut back on courses - I would firstly like to suggest that there were companies cutting back in Apr/may 2001 ( I know especially in US, AUS and NZ as I spoke to them ) and secondly is that not a good thing, not just for us wannabes but also the pilots that are currently out of work.

Something else I have noticed from another thread is that there are only approx 11500 UK commercial pilots? I can't believe thats the case - but if that is true then how many aircraft are there in the UK? I'm thinking about all the planes that can be making money ( i.e. banner towing, Cargo planes, Surveying, Biz Jets/Props, 747s etc etc ) if that is the case, then who is flying them ?There simply has to be more pilots - where can the true figures be found ?

Lastly, I would like to know if I have been miss informed on this ( or any of my veiws ), but I was told that a percentage ( possibly a much as 20% ) of the pilot reduncies from big airlines have been taken as early retirement? Now if thats wrong than fair enough my mistake, but hanging on to that thought - Summer time, things pick up and the laid off pilots re-employeed ( Fantastic ). End of summer and vacancies start to appear - who is going to fill them as a comment in this thread said that flight schools were cutting back so where are all the pilots going to come from ?

I remain optimistic about the future for flying and the best of luck to anyone who has made the leap. People who have given up their current careers in the last few months to train have given me the hope to pursue my dream. Like I said I didn't want to offend anyone - these are just my own views from talking to flight schools, pilots, press and PPRUNE.

P.S. One more thing I have found is that there are a huge number of people who want to take your money - do your research first. I have found only one flying school that I trust and they will get my business simply because of their honesty.

Kempus

12th Feb 2002, 03:17

You know when i first posted this note i was trying to find out why people are not applying for the jobs that flash at the top of the screen. I've sat back and watched it every day with some dam interesting points getting thrown back and forth. I know what i want to do now!

Can i also just add a little something?

I work for worlds oldest travel agent and yes i was laid off post 11/09. Got a little phone call in december cos things were starting to get busy and my god, it is dam hectic at work at the moment. Just to give you a little hope, everything is target orientated. I achieved target 184%! Others as much as 215%! Now you cant say things arent picking up! one thing and this i think is the most important thing,

demand for seats on flights is far greater than the amount of seats available due to the amount of routes axed. BA for example have put all seats on a request basis due to the high volume of demand. Personally, i think alot of airlines have shot themselves in the foot with the lay offs! My company has, and is trying its dam hardest to get 160 old and new employees back in the door. Things are looking up and i WILL be staring flying training within the next 2 years and it will be the "Worlds Favourite Airline" who's calling me!

Good luck guys!

Kempus

Wee Weasley Welshman

12th Feb 2002, 07:23

As a lazy illustration I can off the top of my head name 17 people with Frzn ATPLs with whom I have flown who are looking for jobs. 17. Who have flown with me...

Since Sept 2001 between CABAIR, BAE, OATS, BFC, Mutiflight, Ravenair, Tayflight, PAT and Exeter there have been 430 CPL/IR courses graduated. I doubt a single one of them has got a job. (figure derived from chats with staff and recent students).

For those on other threads vainly trying to garner the CAA data for how many people are hitting the market with low hours I will give (nudge nudge) you a hint. MCC certificate issues.

I echo the reiteration made by Scroggs. DO NOT clamour to join the hundreds upon hundreds of unemployed 200hr pilots currently in the UK worried sick about staying current. Yes the jobs will come back. Yes that may happen within six months (Sept 11th is not going to be as bad as the Gulf War and associated UK recession period in my humble opinion). Yes it is worth becoming a professional pilot. No it probably is not worth spending big money or changing your life in a big way for another couple of years.

My comiserations to all those who had already spent that money and made those changes prior to Sept 11. To Rob, Russell,Mike, Graham, Paul, Ollie, Dermot, Nigel, Brian, Peter, Paul, Alex, Diane, Callaghan, Dowdy, Sunni and Benni my comiserations...

And for those considering instructing at large FTO's, when I joined BAE in Jerez I had a little over 1,000 instructing hours under my belt and was quite lucky to get the job to be honest. Acouple of years down the line as we are and with the collapse of big schools such as SFT and cutbacks at most others I would be lucky indeed to repeat that success...

Good luck, as Scroggs intoned - a couple of years flying differnet things for a couple of thousand hours before you hit your first airline does you good.

Cheers,

WWW

BillyFish2

12th Feb 2002, 14:43

Chocks Away,

Not sure I disagree with any of your comments, opinions or observations. Personally I'd fly a hang glider if they were log able hours which would help me towards that turbo or jet job. Unclear though about when you plan to take the leap? Or are you in wait + see mode? I know Scroggs + WWW are strongly advising this mode, but afraid I personally can wait no longer - 20+ years with same dream/ambition, a man could get restless!

As I've mentioned I'm planning to finish end of 2003. I know it's a gamble (even after much research followed by holding back about 6 months from original plan) but hey what isn't?

Suggs

12th Feb 2002, 15:45

OATS ain't to bad. I graduated on time. I finished Feb 2000, including the MCC. 5 out of 8 of us have jobs. All but one on jets and he will be soon.

Stick with it Boys it WILL turn around.

chocksaway

12th Feb 2002, 17:34

BillyFish,

I have wanted to fly from childhood, but teachers etc told me I wasn't clever enough. I took the easy route and went through college and did IT courses and am now 25 and a senior IT engineer. I work under a flight path and see airliners everyday. I'm ready to burst as I am sure are so many other wannabes.

Although I said I was waiting, I am definatly doing the modular route. This summer I am looking to get my PPL, then will look at sitting the distance ATPL school using Bristol. This way I can stay employed and slowly start to work towards my goal. I think that if in your heart you know you want something then with hard work and patience it will come.

The best things come to those that wait ?

Good luck with your training and keep us informed.

Desk-pilot

12th Feb 2002, 18:28

Without doubt this is one of the very best threads I have ever seen on PPRUNE. My sympathies to all those who have FATPL and still no job.

I currently work for 'the world's favourite airline' but in IT. All my life I have wanted to be a pilot but first the Gulf War (On a holding list for BA final selection until outside age criteria for sponsorship) and now Sept 11th have scuppered my plans.

I was all set to start at SFT last November but held fire after Sept events. I wanted to answer the question 'why people are still signing up for ATPL courses?' It's simply because you get one life and spending the next 20-30 years dreading every day in an office is no way to spend it.

Tomorrow it seems there will be a big announcement of redundancies in BA and once again I and others are at a career crossroads. Bleak as the airline industry is at present even I have toyed with throwing any severance money I might get at an ATPL.

Would doing so really be that crazy or is it better to spend 25 years being bored at work?

Desk-pilot

jasonjdr

12th Feb 2002, 19:44

I posted a message on this thread a couple of days ago to add my experiences to those who had also obtained their FATPL through an integrated course. I have since read only a daily basis, and with much interest, the experiences and thought processes of others. This thread truly extols the virtues of PPrune. Any Wannabes who have read through this have just obtained a wealth of knowledge.

Before starting my course I tried to do as much research as possible, and decided that OATS would be the best way forward for me at that time. By reading this thread so many options are covered, and anyone looking to start the work towards an FATPL can be better informed.

As for "Would doing so really be that crazy or is it better to spend 25 years being bored at work?". Hell no! Start the ball rolling. Even if its on a part time basis to go and get your PPL, etc its going to be worth it. The more experience you get now the more benefit it will be to you when you go for your CPL / IR. Also, more hours to put on your CV at the end of the day. It must be clear from this thread that you don't need to take a big jump, and give up your job straight away. Get some books together and start studying earlier. It will save you money in ground courses. OATS sell their manuals (they are very good, and cover far more than you need to know for the exams) by themselves through Jepps.

Doggerman

13th Feb 2002, 00:34

Guys,

Just read this tread and thought I would add my tuppence worth. I am in the very fortunate position to have been sponsored by BA and joined the airline in early 2001, so in terms of timing, I was very lucky.

I trained at OATS but did the Jet Orientation Course in Jerez. I was only there for a month, but in my humble opinion, Jerez is a superb setup. In terms of facilities, aircraft, instruction, lifestyle and most importantly cost, I believe it is far superior to Oxford.

Contrary to many comments on this site, us BA guys do feel for our self sponsored colleagues. Stick in there guys, I truly believe things will begin to pick up within the next 6 months.

Ta tres much...

The Dog

scroggs

13th Feb 2002, 01:00

Guys and girls,. .I admire your optimism! A small suggestion: let's see what BA's announcements tomorrow will bring. I suspect that there will be far-reaching consequences for all those hoping to join the UK industry. Let's hope that the news isn't too bad.. .As for the suggestion that things are on the up - yes they are, but a lot of capacity has been taken out of the UK industry (and there will be more tomorrow, I'm sure), and it will take some time for the backlog to clear. It's far easier to reinstate staff in the booking offices and call centres than it is in flying....

Chirpy Pilot

13th Feb 2002, 01:05

I can still recall, when I started at Oxford, as a self sponsored student, how a charming sponsored BA lady told us all that their class are Gonnabees, and we are all wannabees! . .Well who cares, fortunately ended up working for BA. . .For all those seeking first time employment, don't give up, don't stop and go out of your way, and be different, to get that first job.. .we have all been there pulling our hair out but I feel it will not be long before things have come full circle, employment for Pilots will start again anf there will be a shortage of pilots within the next couple of years.

Shanks

13th Feb 2002, 12:50

From the BBC:

"British Airways Cuts 5,800 More Jobs.

The total of 13,000 job cuts will include 400 pilots, 3,400 cabin crew, 800 customer services staff at Heathrow, 550 customer services staff at Gatwick, 1,500 engineers, 2,600 world sales staff and 800 cargo employees.

There will also be 2,950 others, mainly among head office and support staff.

About 6,600 of the jobs will be cut from Heathrow, 3,000 from Gatwick, 1,200 from regional bases in the UK, and 2,200 will go overseas."

ARGGGHHHHH, time to sit tight and be thankful I've got a job.

My sympathies to all those affected, even Shorty's Gonnabe, possibly hasbeen lady.

WWW, Scroggs, any idea how long this will set things back by, or is that a bloody stupid question?!!! And to think you guys were being branded as doomsayers a couple of months ago.

<img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Polar_stereographic

13th Feb 2002, 13:00

Yes, This may well damp down my long held optimism.

Lets wait for the dust to settle and see what the true fall out is at the end of the day, before rushing in with too many view.

PS

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]

BillyFish2

13th Feb 2002, 13:46

I agree Polar,

Before we all collectively top ourselves there are little questions to be answered like: how many pilots, how many early pilot retirements, how much of the domestic network is in fact to be re-deployed or just plain taken over (as opposed to shut down) by subsidiaries like Brymon & CityFlyer. These hard facts will not emerge for weeks I suspect. Everything else will of course be just good old speculation. Sure don't we all thrive on that anyway?

Polar_stereographic

13th Feb 2002, 13:49

BF2

Spot on.

PS

Shanks

13th Feb 2002, 14:58

You are right, reactions to this news may be based on speculation, however the figures quoted above are NOT speculation.

Yes some of the FOUR HUNDRED pilot's jobs may be shed through early retirement, however we were hoping all those retirements might ease the strain on the CURRENT unemployment situation.

BA are also planning to cut 10 unannounced routes, I hope you're right and that someone with lower overheads will step in and try and make these routes profitable.

I'm trying not to be too pessimistic, and this development has only set my plans back a while, not cancelled them; however the quote from Bill Morris pretty much sums it up:

"We expected mild surgery, what we got is savage butchery."

scroggs

13th Feb 2002, 15:25

Shanks. .thank you for posting those figures. If you look at them carefully, you'll see that they're nowhere near as bad as we'd feared. Today's announcement was a further 5800 job cuts; your figures are for the entire 13,000 cut since September 11th (and not due to have fully taken effect until 2004). The 400 pilot job losses were part of the original 7200, and have already largely been achieved.. .Look carefully at the others, and you will discover that today's extra job losses are in support (admin and engineering) rather than operations. While I feel sorry for those affected, this is a long-overdue adjustment in one of the world's most over-manned companies, and will positively affect the company's bottom line - if it's done well! And the timescale suggested leaves plenty of scope for these job cuts to be achieved by natural wastage and early retirement.. .The 10 routes to be cut have yet to be announced, and the 50 aircraft 'to be withdrawn' is only relative to Summer 2001 - most have already gone. The short-haul fleet changes will upset many of those comfortable with their current bases, but the vast majority will still have a job!. .As for the implications for Wannabes, I suspect that the resumption of CEP recruiting is no further away than it was yesterday. What it was then, I have no idea really! But I have said before now that I believed that BA would look this spring for expressions of interest in courses to start next year. They can't reasonably start looking for new people in the current circumstances, but I still believe that they will want to resume training in 2003 to avoid being dependent on the experienced aircrew pool which may or may not be there when they need more people - the main reason for their recruiting policy before 9/11.. .Let's now hope that BA has done enough to stop the rot. I, for one, am not convinced - I think that restructuring in short-haul will have to go further. But I hope that they've given themselves a bit of breathing space to think that through.. .As a footnote, Virgin today announced the resumption of a small number of routes, so it ain't all bad news!

Quidditch Captain

13th Feb 2002, 15:39

Scroggs. .Do you have any more info on the Virgin announcement? - not seen it so far and no joy from my VAA contacts.

Thanks

Wee Weasley Welshman

13th Feb 2002, 16:09

The big question is whether or not the aircraft and 400 pilots in todays statement are new or largely the same as were announced last year. I think they are actually the old numbers and BALPA was confident that the 400 figure would be achieved by the end of this year anyway without the need for redundancy. Fewer aircraft but higher utilisation might mean a fairly minimal impact for flightdeck requirement anyway.

It is tempting to grab at the straw that is early retirement. Indeed many pilots have bailed out early in the last 6 months. There is also the natural retirement that will occur over the next year.

However I do not think it will be particularly significant. Those that were tempted by pension crytalisation and early retirement have probably all gone. Many of those of course are the ones one would expect to retire 'naturally' in the coming year or two. I therefore think the retirement bulge is somewhat deflated for the next year already.

In addition one has to remember that a 55 (or indeed 52, 53, 54) year old BA retired Skipper does not necessarily toddle off to the South of France to perfect his Golf handicap. A large proportion stay in aviation as contract pilots or indeed as full time flightcrew in smaller airlines. Often with 30 years quality flying under their belt and perhaps TRE/TRI quals they can bring a LOT to smaller outfits. And good luck to them, if they still love the jobb enough to stay on then why not. Not forgetting the significant number who want to increase the yacht from 30ft to 42ft, or, perhaps more likely, have 3 ex-wives to fund :)

For Joe Wannabe therefore the BA retirees just slow down recruitment in other potential employers.

If BA actually do issue pilots with P45's a Rubicon will have been crossed. Its never happened before and many said it could never happen. Lots of people have gone to BA for this very reason citing a job for life and great pension even at the expense of immediate pay and seniority.

What is certain is that the whole industry is in turmoil. Only an hour ago an ex-student called me to say they had just been offered a 737 charter job with only 500hrs. Virgin are seemingly calling in pilots from days off because they are short and you can't get a discounted holiday on the high street for love nor money. The Low Costs continue to recruit strongly.

I am sure there is a team of aviation industry analysts at JP Morgan who know whats going on but I'm baffled if I do!

Todays announcement though can only meen one thing. To some unknown extent things just got even worse for low time newly graduated job seekers. This BA contraction is going to at best stagnate the entire UK hiring market as ex-BA experienced crews become available. If only they had issued a statement about selling Waterside, buying new aircraft and making an iron rule that they would never have more staff per aircraft than Lufthansa.

My sincere condolonces to any Speedbird who looses their position - they really are not all the total Nigels that many enjoy portraying them as. As for Feng Shui consultants at Waterside - lets see 'em swinging from the lamposts.

WWW

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

Evo7

13th Feb 2002, 16:18

WWW

The analyists at JPMorgan are paid a lot to sound like they know what is happening - they may even convince some people. I've got a friend with just that job, albeit with a different investment bank, and if she is honest (or drunk) then she'll admit that nobody really knows.... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Pandora

13th Feb 2002, 16:50

Currently half way through a 5 year retirement bulge which is seeing approx 200 pilots a year going. Some ARE taking the money and running, others as WWW said are going to the low costs on cushy deals. I know one 55year old 737 capt who retired from BA one day and next day went to easy with a fat golden hello and a part time training captain deal.

Also don't forget that after retirement bulges happen you get years of seniority stagnation.

So sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but those of us with our foot in the door need those retirees to go just so we can keep our jobs.

Pandora

13th Feb 2002, 17:04

Chirpy pilot,

well done on the BA job, i think you were on my course at Oxford.

About the 'gonnabe/wannabe' lady - if it's who I'm thinking of she has feet that can fit in her mouth, and she puts them there quite often. She once told me that all salespeople are leeches on the face of their customers. Well you can probably guess what my last pre-BA job was...

Once again - well done :)

scroggs

13th Feb 2002, 17:36

Qudditch. .According to the Times, Virgin announced earlier today that it would be 'introducing extra services to China, Nigeria and the Caribbean, and resuming two services - to Las Vegas and New York - that were suspended after the attacks.'. .I'll see what I can find about the detail from my own sources, but I believe that these are incremental capacity increases and restorations, not new schedules.. .As for BA's numbers, the aircraft and aircrew reductions are definately relative to Summer 2001 (ie before 9/11), and have largely already been achieved or identified. Today's cuts are almost exclusively support staff, and are to take effect by March 2004 - not exactly the day after tomorrow!!. .The stock market's true reaction to this will await further detail of the short-haul restructuring; the markets appear to be holding fire at the moment. That's not a bad sign - if there'd been a perception that the actions were insufficient or wrong, the punishment to the share price would have been immediate and merciless.. .Overall, I think this is good for the future of BA - and therefore good for all of you. Just that the pain will go on a bit longer than we'd hoped.

Virgin Schedule Amendments. .As I suspected, they're incremental. Here's a summary:. .Las Vegas: extra flight Tuesdays from 30 Jul - 27 August.. .Newark: extra Tuesday flight (VS17) from 4 Jun, and Wednesday (also VS17) from 24 Jul to September.. .Shanghai: extra Tuesday flight from 2 July to September.. .Lagos: extra Tuesday flight from 19 March.. .Antigus: extra extension from Barbados on Fridays.. .Cape Town: withdrawn for southern winter from April to October.

Nothing earth-shattering, but a useful increase.

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]