Your thoughts please

[slackbladder28]

Any advice would be welcomed here.

This is me:
450 hours tt
120 Multi (inc 80hours turbine)
Fatlp
Dash 8 type rated in 1998

OK. Now since things got more than a bit cocked up on my initial line training, I have found it nigh on impossible to get an interview let alone a job. When things have started to look like I might get a chance again, something has normally come along and messed things up.

I have been unable to do much in the way of hours building or building qualifications due to no funds and massive debts. A not too uncommon situation! However I have just come into some money. Not a huge amount, but enough to pay for my FI(R), or I could make up the rest with a loan to get a King air Type rating, or I could sit on it make 4% a year and have enough to pay for a few extra hours in something when things have picked up and I might find some sort of flying work, or I could pay off some more debt.

Any thoughts?

[Bucking Bronco]

What do you mean by...

"Now since things got more than a bit cocked up on my initial line training, I have found it nigh on impossible to get an interview let alone a job."

Was it external factors or internal factors?

[Sheep Guts]

Gday Slackbladder28,

I would say you still have a chance with some operators. What do you want? Obviously a Turbine Job in the RHS Dash-8 or similair? Have you been offered any small stuff? ie. Islander or Air Taxi positions , this will build up your total time and give you more experience, just a thought.
Where did you do your rating DASH-8 ,was it on your own, self sponsored. or were you with a company? Im asking as Im interested in a DASH rating at the mo.Outside the USA especially. Was it a P2 or P1 rating?

Have you limited yourself to Europe only? There are some Dash8 jobs going in Japan at the moment look at Climb to 350.

You may not have the total time for the positions but atleast youy have the rating, thats half the battle

Regards
Sheep

the worlds your oyster Slack

[slackbladder28]

Bronco – Mixture of both really. Due to lack of availability of Training Captains and aircraft for line training I had a 2 1/2 month gap between finishing the sim and starting line training. I found it difficult stepping onto the flight deck of a dash with my low hours, a lack of continuity in the training and the fact that when things started to go wrong, due to lack of familiarity and experience I wound myself up like you would not believe. I blamed myself for what I thought was my obviously appalling flying ability and the fact that I must be crap otherwise I would be sailing through this. After all I had walked the ARB and not had any problems during my Sim course.

After this had happened, I really did question my ability to sit in the RHS of anything, let alone an airliner with people relying on me to be competent at my job. To sort out the now overwhelming doubt in my ability as a pilot, I had myself assessed by doing the equivalent of the City Flyer sim assessment. I passed this without any problems so I am sure that I have the ability. I just need the break.

With hind site I now believe that unfortunately the airline did not have the resources or a training program set up to really get the best out of 509’ers. I also could have spent that 2 1/2 months sitting in the cockpit of aircraft that were undergoing maintenance, running through drills and scans. That would have least taken some of the pressure of me.

Sheep Guts - Providing it is legal, and I can pay my debts and mortgage, I would be quite happy to fly an Aztec around Europe. Frankly I just want to do something I enjoy for a living. Siting in front of a computer all day making 100 cold calls is starting to get me down. I had an FO’s position with a small regional UK airline and did the type rating at flight safety France. At the time I was bonded for 10 grand. I presume the course would have cost around this much. If you have any more info on Japan I would be very interested. If you would like any more information, drop me a line.

[Pilot Pete]

Come on Slack, tell us the whole story if you want people to comment. Did you fail the course whilst employed by the airline and were you then 'released'?

If so, then obviously this is a big factor personally as well as in the industry (if it's known about by other potential employers, which seems to be what you are implying in your original post).

Just about everyone I know has had disruption during their initial training, me included. There is no point looking for sympathy, this is the real world of commercial aviation. Things are rarely perfect. What it comes down to when you do have a lack of experience is attitude. You must be determined not to fail and to be quite honest it's too late now to say how you 'could have' spent time keeping up to date with the SOP's and drills. I find it hard to believe that you were just 'chopped' during line training when you sailed through the ARB and sim (your claim). Why did you fail?

Now is the time to show your determination as you will not succeed without it. Only you can decide what is best for you, be it flying instruction or a type rating. But what you have to do is ask yourself what point is buying a type rating with the market as it is when any potential employer is going to put you through their training and you are going to (potentially) be facing the same difficulties as last time. Maybe building the confidence back up 'at a lower level' is what you need.

Sorry if this all sounds pretty blunt, but reality checks are something that Wannabes sometimes need. There is a plentiful supply of organisations 'encouraging' you whilst taking your cash.

Think hard and question yourself before looking for some external excuse.

Good luck.

PP

[slackbladder28]

Pete,

I don’t mind blunt, If that is the way it is then rather the facts than having sunshine blown up ones arse.

I failed my final line check and was released from the Airline. As for why, by the time I got to my final line check my confidence was non existent. I tried to push on, not admitting to myself or the airline I was really struggling and I didn’t ask for any help when I should have done. What I hadn’t realised at the time was that I was still suffering from Post Traumatic Stress after a car accident in which I had been driving and a little girl had been killed. I didn’t tell the Airline at the time because I thought I was over it. I was wrong. I spent a couple of years get my head put back together once I had realised I was still in trouble.

I am not looking to blame anyone or anything. It doesn’t matter now what caused the trouble. It was 4 years ago. All that matters is that I failed a line course and that makes me a poor prospect for employment. Especially in these times where competition between airlines is fierce, profit margins are tight, any cost risk has to be examined and in a market place where there is a surplus of commercial pilots available. I understand that. I also understand the honesty is the best policy. I have been up front over my training every time I have spoken to, visited or written to any recruiter. Hell the hours are in my logbook the rating is on my license. It is going to be a bit obvious.

I have already proved I can pass a type rating what I need to prove that this was a one off, a glitch and that I have the ability to fly the line. So what do I do? If I do go for a King Air type rating I need to be able to use it. Will being an AFI help to put any worries a recruiter would have to rest? How about the AQP that CTC offer?

I dunno what the right course of action to take is hence asking for opinions. As for dedication I am still here after 4 years of PFO’s knowing that until I could get some cash together I was in with very little chance of improving my situation and gaining employment. This is the first proper chance I have had to be able to do something, the first time I have had the money.

I am confident that I can do it. Until I get back into the RHS on line training I will not know for sure. At least I know now what I need to do and a bit more about the training system in an airline. It is not like a flying college! I gained some very good experience. I just have to find the way to turn the black mark into a very light smudge so I can use what I have learnt on my next line course.

Although sympathy is nice, I would rather some good advice. It is more use.

Cheers and thanks guys

[redsnail]

ok, been there, got the t-shirt and wrote the book. It sucks big time.
Now, you have to really look hard at yourself to make sure you have gotten over it. Prepare answers to the possible questions you might be asked about the "failure" in an interview. Don't hide it, the industry is too small. The future operators will want to be sure that you have learned from it and have taken steps to correct it or fill in the experience gaps.
So, now it is time to walk before you run. If you can, find a type that is a bit easier to fly and get some time up on it. Easier said than done I know.
Have you revalidated your IR? If not, do so, it will help your confidence.
Target operators that are likely to take you on rather than just blanket mailing.
Be prepared to travel to meet these operators.

[slackbladder28]

Redsnail,

I kept my IR upto date until My last renewal being at the beginning of September 2001. I thought I would save the money this year until I thought there was at least a chance of an interview and then look at getting the renewal done.

I believe I have dealt with my past and am ready to get on with my future with these lessons learnt. I would obviously love the opportunity to get back into the RHS of a Dash or something similar, but as I have said I do not see this happening in today's aviation climate until I have found a way to reassure or prove to potential employers that I am less of a training risk than anybody else they may look at with similar hours.

So, what should I do retraining wise with this cash?

At the moment I am thinking the best Idea is to go and move into a pub until I have spent the lot. :D

[CAP509castaway]

Just noticed this posting and thought you may be interested in the following . I was recently chatting to another Ppruner in a similar position to yourself.He was an Oxford BA sponsored cadet who was chopped at the end of his line training on the Airbus A320. He found that no airline was able to offer him employment because he had low hours -around 300 total time due to the problems of obtaining insurance.
So, I would offer the same advice to you as I did to him. Firstly you need to increase your total time and do so in aproductive manner and try to do this part time by instructing.I was in aposition where I couldn't get aflying job and once you have some instrucing hours under your belt you will start to become more employable. Being in a flying club also allows you to network and find out who is recruiting before the job is advertised.
Have you got yuor MCC this another thing to consider and you can use the King Air 200 sim to renew your IR which I did and found it reasonably staight forward after the MCC course.

Good Luck:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Pilot Pete]

slack,

sorry for not replying for some time, been a bit busy recently. I go along with Redsnail on this one. Tell the truth, but don't offer the info up front, just answer if directly asked, either on application or in interview. Tell them exactly what happened (from the point of view of your emotional state) and tell them exactly how you were feeling. Then tell them how you have dealt with this problem and conquered it and how you have learnt from the experience.

This is the key to problems in your life when it comes to the interview. We (including the interviewers) have all had our ups and downs in life. The important thing from their point of view is how you dealt with it when you realised the problem and then just as importantly how you have learnt from it and how you will (in your particular case) prevent the same thing from happening again (I mean failing a type rating that they are going to be paying for.)

As long as you are honest and have a good reason for your failure and show them where you have dealt with the problem and learnt from it I don't see them holding it against you. The only problem is that you are now (perhaps unfairly) starting from slightly further behind the start line than other candidates if this information is asked for on the application form. As I have said, don't offer it unless asked, but certainly don't hide it if challenged.

Good luck.

PP