View Full Version : ANZ Pilots Scope Clause

17th Feb 2003, 05:21
Can anyone confirm that the Air New Zealand pilots have negotiated a scope clause that will give them exclusive rights to fly any jet aircraft over 70 seats within the Air New Zealand group?

Who killed Kenny?
17th Feb 2003, 05:47
Yep its true alright. ALPA (ie the negotiation team) have negotiated a contract which adversely affects other ALPA groups which at face value contradicts ALPA Rule 3(a) The objects of the union shall be: ".....to discourage the pursuit of individual gain or interest where such would be at the expense of other members collectively or individually...."
How this can get into an Air NZ contract, when this directly affects ALPA pilots of Eagle, Air Nelson and Mt Cook totally eludes me. Turboprop manufacturers are downsizing world-wide (and canning R&D) and RJ's with their much improved and very efficient turbofans seem to becoming a very real possibility for regional carriers in the future.

17th Feb 2003, 18:17
I guess this is bound to happen with Air NZ guys at ALPA doing the negotiating.
Considering Air NZ has on order or operates jets with no less than 105seats A319, then this might of been acceptable, but in the future I think there will be pressure to change.
Not sure whether they are scared or worried or both?

Sharfted Groundhog
17th Feb 2003, 22:08
From what I understand, that contract clause excludes the current four aircraft that Freedom has......

(and is the reason that Freedom pilots are now able to hop across to ANZ as a trade-off)

18th Feb 2003, 06:58
Shafted Groundhog,

A scope clause will always favour the mother airlines crews , which it's designed to do.Unfortunately, the losers tend to be crews from the smaller airlines .However, If the pilots joining the
AirNZ seniority list retain their current date of joining and have equal bidding rights across the fleets that would be a good scope clause.......;)

19th Feb 2003, 17:28
Do Freedom still require you to have a 737 rating before employment and does anyone have their contact details?

19th Feb 2003, 17:58
Yes you need to either have or get a 737 rating when you get a job.
tis the link to the HR guy you can email or send your cv to.

Sharfted Groundhog
19th Feb 2003, 21:44
Properganda; don't get me wrong; I definately don't think it's a bad clause as far as Freedom pilots go - and from what I understand, neither do the majority of their pilots (especially the FO's who now have automatic rights to ANZ before any external applicant!)

Weewillywonker; I'd go straight to either Michael Young or Rob Shorter - I hear they are desparate for pilots - and yes you still need a type rating, but I understand that you now have to go through the ANZ interview process which is a bit longwinded and alot harder than the old chat you used to have with Freedom before this clause was implemented..... worth a crack though.

I hear they have lost seven pilots (or will lose 7 pilots) across to ANZ within the next month or two. I'd say it's panic stations in Newmarket at the moment!

21st Feb 2003, 06:52
Well that's all fine and dandy if you're a Freedom pilot but where does it leave the likes of, say, an Air Nelson pilot if that airline ditches the Saabs and re-equips with regional jets?

Barbers Pole
22nd Feb 2003, 21:06

Air Nelson getting RG's, never gonna happen!! If they get rid of the saabs then air Nelson will be assimilated into eagle & Mt cook, watch this space in the next yr or two!

Why would AirNZ swap the ATR72 for RG's which would only carry a few more punters and use over twice the gas, higher running costs, leases, etc. Mt Chook is making a ton of $$ with the 72. The bean counters arn't going to change the formula.


23rd Feb 2003, 01:06
Air Nelson is making money with the 340a and I am sure SAAB will be doing all that they can to make sure they stay in SAAB's .
My 5 cents is that they will upgrade to the 340B as I'm sure as you say barbers the bean counters will be looking at the cost of 340b vs anything else would be stacked easily in the favour of the 340b's a few spare sitting around in the states, would be easy to get a fleet of 15 nearly identical.
Saw a dash floating around there the other day, nice plane but I hear it burns a heap of gas, definitely don't think that will be happening.

23rd Feb 2003, 07:34
Mr Pole and Mr Lad
While what you say may be correct, I think the issue of this thread is going over your heads, namely that of one group of ALPA pilots trying to feather their own nests at the expense of other pilots in ALPA.
There are obviously some ANZ pilots who don't share your sentiments, otherwise why do they want the scope clause?

Sharfted Groundhog
23rd Feb 2003, 19:10
Kangaroota; I dont understand what your actually trying to get across. ANZ will never put RJ's into Air Nelson, and as other posts have said, you have a greater chance of being combined with Eagle and Mt Cook in a bigger regional combined push against competition.....

The only airlines this 'out' clause affects is Freedom and ANZ. What you should be concerned about are those collegues of yours in the regional airlines who have already been given 'yes' letters but now have to sit behind all those transferring pilots between SJ and ANZ (both ways). Where do they stand now?

Yes, ALPA are feathering one set of pilots nests, but get real if you think this is the first time this has happened. Sorry, but welcome to the real world. The ANZ pilots wanted the clause included for their own benieft, not anyone elses.... it gives them options. They don't care about those of us who still have more than a decade to go before we get to sit around all day...... as we probably wouldn't either if we were their age and unprepared for retirement as many of them are.

24th Feb 2003, 05:25
Sharfted G,

I wouldn't say that they are unprepared for their retirement, more that they want all that they can get, and I suppose they are entitled to chase after it it. However it maybe at the expense of everyone else and they have Alpa lawyers(who only represent the top hundred or so Air NZ pilots anyway) batting for them. Will the majority get shafted by Alpa? Does the Pope wear a silly hat? Does a bear....

If you've ever tried getting Alpa to get off it's backside and do anything for you you'll know what I mean.

Sharfted Groundhog
24th Feb 2003, 18:56
Albotross: Totally agree about the ALPA laywers only looking after the ANZ pilots - but for once, the ramifications of their actions are actually helping a few other pilots as well, so why shouldn't they take advantage of it?

Having tried (unsuccessfully) to get ALPA's help in the past, I can't say I'm surprised at their actions or the fact that it shafts a rather large section of their paying members. I'm sure there are alot of other pilots out there who have also had nasty experiences with ALPA and from what I hear, they are voting with their feet......

I guess the handywork has been done now and all we can do is make the best of it and get on with it.....

Who killed Kenny?
24th Feb 2003, 19:44
Sharfted Groundhog, with all due respect mate I think you've missed the point. This scope clause does affect more that just Freedom and Airnz. Cast your mind back to a well published collapse of a major domestic jet operator in recent times. Who kept the 146's going whilst there was a temporary shortfall of seats, Mt Cook (although I reckon that it would have best for all involved if the 146 was chucked into kids playgrounds and concreted to the spot!)
If the scope clause had been in place then the 146 couldn't have continued and pilots and hosties wouldn't have had work.
Look at my original thread. ATR has stopped research and development, and maybe not in the next couple of years, but the time will come when production will cease. The Dash 8 400 is a big fast thirsty dog and I believe it's on the way out before it even really got started. What else is there? The SAAB is getting older whichever model who want to pick (production ended in '97)
Barbers Pole, yep you're right the ATR does make heaps of money...at the moment. Remember the ATR is an Airbus (ie eurotrash!!) The time will come when the costs of ongoing maintenance vs fleet modernisation will lead to its demise. I have heard from an inside and reliable source (I sound like a reporter!) that the business case for modern RJ'S on the NZ tourist network does in fact stack up and the running cost of an ATR sized RJ is not significantly higher than the ATR that it may replace.

25th Feb 2003, 00:43
Who killed,

You wouldn't have triple 7s rolling off the Boeing line if Scarebus hadn't hoisted the big twin idea upon the world 30 odd years ago, not that they have necessarily done the best job of it. To the endless Boeing drivel of "it's so good we're never going to change it" we'd still be flying good for their day but ancient planes like the 707, 727 and 737-200..... As it is now it's just cr*phole backwater African airlines and Air NZ finally phasing out the latter :p

28th Feb 2003, 08:01
So if it's never going to happen - to quote Mr Pole and Mr Lad - why do Air New Zealand pilots want the clause?

28th Feb 2003, 18:58
Air Nelson re-equip with RJ's? Has anyone looked at the runway length of the places they currently fly? I wanna be there with my video camera the day they take off in there bright new shiny CAT D, no leading edge devices, CRJ200 or the like from Nelson or Napier. Interesting sight that will be..... I think the likes of SAAB's or other turbo props are a more likely sight.

28th Feb 2003, 23:32
they want it because they don't want competition for their jobs, thing is if any operators get rj's about 70-90 seats I could just see them wanting to come and work on mt ck or air nelson pay scales to do so.
Heard a rumor the other day that when it was first drafted was for 105 or greater but somehow that change when it was ratified to 70 seats. Will be interesting to see if it gets changed.

4th Mar 2003, 08:21
With the exception of Mr Kenneth, you Link guys and girls don't really seem to be connected to the real issue here, namely that of Air New Zealand pilots putting you in your place.

"We're the only pilots clever enough and good enough to fly jets. You snivelling little wannabes just stick to your inferior tin pot turbo cans and let us get on with the real flying."

"And by the way, your ALPA subscription is late."

Am I correct in assuming that the above is a quotation of some persons efforts at CRM.

5th Mar 2003, 08:15
Give me strength.

The "quotation" is an interpretation of the cynical atttitude displayed by ANZ pilots toward the Link pilots.

6th Mar 2003, 08:45
By that line of thinking by the Air NZ pilots I guess they wouldn't have a problem with MT COOK atr guys having first crack at the A320's as they are of the airbus philosophy, near as the same as atr, and they only have boeing experience.
I sure NZALPA will ratifiy this in the next negotiation of the MT COOK contract!!

Sharfted Groundhog
7th Mar 2003, 00:02
Kangaroota; grow up, mate! If the ANZ pilots have screwed the link guys and ALPA let it happen, then get on with life or get a new career!

Last time I heard, ALPA was made up of more than just ANZ pilots and were voted into union positions of responsibility, so either vote them out, leave the union, or get the hell out! I mean, for goodness sake; it's too late crying about it all now - why didn't you put your hand up to be counted when the system was being put into place?!?! And yes, I do agree with what you have said about ALPA in that they are not fantastic in smaller operations. Snivelling about it won't change anything though......

I don't agree that it's fair, but IF you ever get into ANZ (that is, if you want to and they'll take you), then no doubt your'll be very happy for the clause if things do go down that track.

I think your worrying about something that may not ever happen and even if it does, it means that ANZ will need more pilots, doesen't it? Who'll fly these new aircraft even when they do arrive? More jobs in the parent company has got to be good. Last time I checked, their contract was a hell of a lot better than any of the link operators and certainly better than Freedoms!

Management certainly won't give a toss if you get an ulcer over this! Lifes too short. Get over it and enjoy whatever it is your doing.....

15th Mar 2003, 03:35
More jobs in the parent company has got to be good

For who?

Certainly not a senior captain in Air Nelson.

On what basis do you make the assumption that ANZ pilots are the only ones in NZ capable of flying jets?