Oh god, what am I thinking...

[Springo]

Oh boy - where do I start... Well at the beginning of course!
Like most of you guys and gals on this board I have been looking at the route to a job as a pilot and I am considering the ATPL modular course but there are so many questions I need answered and as good as the WWW is, it is very general in its answers so I would like to try and get something more specific to apply to my situation.

First, a little bit about myself. I'm 26, have a job in IT which pays almost 30,000 pounds per annum and I hate it. I have a mortgage and a long term girlfriend who I know would support me (emotionally, not financially) if I decided to train. I have no flying experience (apart from being a skydiver for the past 3 years) however I have had an interest in aviation since about age 10 (stay with me, I am going to ask questions soon - I promise).

What I would like to know is:
(i) How many of you are in a similair situation to me in terms of lifestyle (job and mortgage) and how do you finance your flying. I can probably get the money for a UK based PPL course within the next couple of months but what about after that. How many hrs/week or hrs/month should I be flying if I want to eventually do the ATPL. If I grit my teeth then I can probably find 400 - 500 pound per month to spend on training (Is this enough?).
(ii) Is it feasable to hold down my present job working 5 days a week, 7.5 hrs per day and still be able to do the ATPL? What timescale do u think I am looking at.
(iii) I have a voucher from one of the major airlines which entitles me to a free return flight on any of their routes. Would it be practical for me to study in a place where training would be cheaper (e.g. South Africa) or would that be a total non-starter (I know there might be a possibility of a couple of extra hours training back in the UK to get used to the differences).
(iv) Am I supposed to have butterflies in my stomach and pangs of anxiety when I think of the massive change and trauma I want to put myself through to achieve this (Only joking - I know the answer to this one!!).
(v) Goals - Am I a freak because I don't want to be a Captain on a major passenger airliner. I would rather do small charter aircraft or cargo flying.
(vi) Prospects - I know the market has its ups and downs (hey, I work in IT) but there must be an average wage for pilots. What is the lowest you could start on - sorry, I know this is a fairly hard question to answer but I'm sure it's at the back of every wannabe's mind.

I know I have more questions but these are a place to start. Many thanks to anyone who gives a sensible reply - I know it can be a pain when people who are new to the scene ask questions that you have probably heard a hundred times before.

Thanks again,

Springo

[FlyingForFun]

Hi Springo,

To answer your questions one at a time:

i) I am. I work in IT, earning a little bit more than you. I'm 27, have a mortgage, but no girlfriend to worry about :) As for what's the best way to train at the moment, you'll get lots of different advice from different people, and what suits me might not suit you, but I figured that, the way the market is at the moment, I'm better off training part time, keeping a job in IT. It will take several years to get your ATPL this way (depending how much time and money you can dedicate to flying), by which time, hopefully, the market will have picked up again - but who knows for sure. 400-500 pounds a month sounds a little low, but not much - ideally, you want to fly a minimum of once a week. Most flights will be an hour or so, and will cost around 100 pounds depending on the school, but later in the PPL course you'll start doing cross country flying and will need to fly for longer. If I were you, I'd save a couple of thousand pounds and then start - the IT market is still fairly bouyant compared to other markets, and you will hopefully get your next pay-rise before you run out of money :)

(The way I'm funding myself doesn't apply to you - I was fortunate enough to get a fairly large redundancy cheque from my company, which left me the time and money to do some hour-building, and may even have enough left over to pay for much of the exams/CPL/IR.)

ii) I did my PPL this way (intending it to be purely for fun) and had no problems. I haven't started the exams yet, but I gather it is possible as long as you are dedicated, although it's much harder than doing them full time.

iii) There are plenty of cheaper places to learn to fly, but it's only practical if you're going to train full time, which it sounds like you can't afford to do. But by all means keep the voucher until you have a few thousand pounds to spare, then head off for a two-week flying holiday <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

iv) Yes!

v) No! As I said, I didn't start flying to get an ATPL, I started for fun. I've flown a few different aircraft, and in my limited experience, the smaller the aircraft, the more fun to fly. Since I'm quitting a well-paid career I don't enjoy for a much lower paid career, there's no point doing it unless I enjoy it! I'm thinking of biz jets - not only are they (probably - don't know until I try it) more fun to fly, but the routes will be more varied too. But I'm a long way off having to make the decision yet, and you're even further

vi) I highly recommend Clive Hughes book, "The Guide to Getting a Commerical Pilot License", available from Transair amongst others. (I know Clive occassionally posts here, so he may even comment himself.) The book is very concise and definitely not bed-time reading! But after about 4 readings, it starts to make sense, and describes everything you need to know to get your CPL or ATPL, including all the available options. There's also a little section which answers question vi)

It sounds like we're in a very similar situation, so feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] if you want to chat about anything!

FFF
-----------

[Shanks]

Springo,

Another IT career casualty here. Not sure what sort of experience you have, or how much demand there is for it, but if you can, I'd suggest contracting for 6 months to a year. Going rates vary from £30 - £60 per hour, doing so could really lower that flying debt. You'd have to be prepared to work away from home, there never seems to be a job just down the road.

I packed in a secure job paying approx. the same as you're on now, been contracting for 7 months with another 5 to go and HOPEFULLY won't have to borrow more than £15K for an integrated course. I too have a long time girlfriend and no matter how committed the relationship is, living apart for long periods puts a real strain on things. Think carefully and weigh up your priorities.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Shanks

[Whirlybird]

Springo and others,

The BWPA (British Women Pilots Association) has published a booklet on becoming a commercial pilot; I can't remember exactly what it's called. I haven't read it, but people rate it very highly (and it's not just for women!). I imagine you can get details on their website - don't remember the address for that either, but it's something obvious.

[G SXTY]

Blimey, am I the only one who doesn’t work in IT? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

(i) I’m in a pretty similar situation; 30, married, 2 year old mortgage & (thankfully) no kids. Obviously the more money you can find, the quicker you can train, but at the moment I’m limited to around £250 per month, so your £400 – 500 is realistic. In any case, bearing in mind the state of the job market at the moment, its probably not a bad idea to slow your training down. Also remember that your budget will have to cover a lot more than just flying hours – initial class 1 medical at £400, books at £20 a throw, exams, etc etc.

(ii) Yes, as long as you can handle the commitment. For most people with a mortgage, this is the only way they can fund the ATPL. It will certainly take longer, and an understanding employer who will let you take leave at short notice or for extended periods will certainly help. The PPL & hours building while working full time is no sweat, but the ATPL written exams can take a year or more if you’re only studying part time. This doesn’t work for everyone however, and many people enrol on a full-time ground-school course to get them out of the way.

(iii) It might, but then again it might not. There are few places as expensive as the UK for training, but there is a school of though that says if you want to fly here commercially, it makes sense to train here as well. Stories abound of newly qualified PPLs returning from the US who have real trouble with UK wx and RT, who then need additional training. When the total costs are compared, there often isn’t that much of a difference. All you can do is check out all the options and see which one is best for you. Whatever you do, don’t part with loads of cash upfront – if the school demands advance payment, find another one. And always pay by credit card.

(iv) You’d be worryingly laid back if you didn’t. A career change is always a bit of a leap in the dark. When it involves blowing £50k + without any guarantee of employment, its normal to be a little nervous. Keep in touch on Pprune, and you’ll get loads of support from people who’ve either done it already or are in the same boat as you.

(v) No. Its a big industry, and if everyone wanted to be a Concorde captain, there would be a lot of disappointed people out there. Much like any other line of work, given time you can find your niche.

(vi) Unsurprisingly, it depends. Before September 11th, a lucky few were starting on jets at £30k+. More realistic was around £20k on a TP. However, when times are bad, you’ll get people cutting each other’s throats for £10 per flying hour as an instructor. Pick a figure anywhere in between.

Hope that fills in a few blanks, but feel free to e-mail me if there’s anything else.

[flyingwelshman]

Details about the booklet thus mentined are at:

<a href="http://www.bwpa.com/" target="_blank">http://www.bwpa.com/</a>

FW

[G SXTY]

I forgot to mention - vote G SXTY! :) :)

[Golden Monkey]

Springo, you are clearly not alone in your current situation given the responses to your initial post!

Point i : I’m in an almost identical situation. 26 years of age, IT going-nowhere graduate job with a large corporate in Bournemouth, circa 30k a year with a mortgage. It is mind numbing in its tedium. Fairly recently single, which is a situation I intend to maintain until I’ve sorted myself out in terms of my current premature midlife career crisis. I have been interested in flying since a childhood spent island hopping in F27s, Islanders and so forth in and around PNG and the Solomons, my first “hands on flying” being in a Chipmunk with the ATC. I’m a Brit, but due to a gap year currently hold a Canadian PPL with a night rating and about 200 hours.

Point iii : I am currently looking at Canada or New Zealand as viable options for working (contracting) overseas for a couple of years whilst getting cost effective commercial training, perhaps with a longer term view to stay. IT is a wonderful ticket into many countries at present, even in the current climate, so in your position you have geographical options. With my current debt load, taking on another 40k or so in a “big hit” is not an option, I’m going to have to train gradually and can only see it progressing in conjunction with paid work. I’m not that concerned about where I fly, I love travel, and the UK seems an overly expensive and complex place to begin a career compared to some. If I move, I can sell my house, which will certainly help somewhat in terms of funds. I aim to be in a position to pursue commercial work by 30, by which time I hope the world will be a better place for pilots seeking jobs.

Points v and vi : You are certainly not alone in thinking that perhaps not everyone wants to fly for a big airline. Ideally I’d like to stick to props and fly regional. But I presume (although I’m sure someone will correct me here) there are always financial pressures to advance to bigger aircraft and larger airlines.

Feel free to mail if you’ve any queries about anything in the above!

Thanks and good luck, SSS

[mintfavour]

Wow so many people in the same situation

Im 26 about to have a morgage. ouch..
Got PPL IMC Night and currntly building hours

Unfortunately Im on a lot less money.
21K Im a project engineer. Got a degree and all that. I think I took the wrong career path to try earn quick bucks to enable me to get my real goal. Any chance of getting into IT to earn better money? IT people your views please.

Currently looking for a better job to help pay morgage and continue to fly. going to be tough

good luck and enjoy.

[Springo]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. It's nice to know there are lots of other people in the same boat.
Over the coming week or so I'm trying to put a plan together which will allow me to go the whole way to ATPL in the next 3-4 yrs.
After reading all your comments and browsing other sites I've found this isn't something you can do without a solid plan so I've decided to start looking for another job both internally and externally. It's going to be difficult because of the shortage of jobs in IT but I think that if I bite the bullet and go to work in London I should be able to put away a decent amount of money. Once I have £15,000 - £20,000 stashed away then I'm going to start training. If I fail the medical then at least I'll have £15,000 - £20,000 to throw at the mortgage.
Stay safe everyone (although I'm sure I'll be lurking these boards for a long time to come).

[MAX]

If you want it bad enough you'll do what you gotta do. Just make sure you are 100% about this new career. This will be easy if you have a genuine love of flying and are not just looking to meet hosties. :) Also be prepared for plenty of heartbreak along the way and a new girlfriend at the end. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

MAX <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[LRRP]

It looks like everyone involved with aviation has had to deal with the stress of finding a way to do it, So No the butterflies are not unusual.

After doing a couple of lessons when I was a kid in 1973 then a couple in 1983 etc... I realised that short of getting the forces to pay for your training it is very difficult to get the time, the weather and the money all at once.

I got into the I.T. world then started my own business ( so now I have my own I.T. department) and passed my PPL last year after being taught by instructors who went the full commitment and get into debt route but still could not get a commercial job.

If you read this board you will probably get the feeling that there are more people looking for jobs than doing them. (O.K. all the employed pilots could be so busy happily flying they do not get time to logon here ).

I do not have a job as a pilot but I do now have 150+ hrs PPL, my own aircraft and time to fly it.
Plus I get to fly where I want when I want.
I am not saying you should not give up the I.T. job and go for it but just pointing out that there is an alternative that does also have some rewards.

[LRRP]

Oh by the way Springo, What I.T. skills do you have?
I have an I.T. department on the 34th floor of Tower42 that is often looking for more staff.

[G - HIGH]

Wow. Yep, just like I thought - I'm just another number. I too work in the I.T industry, I'm 25 next month, I have a girlfriend, a 20K job that I hate, and would love to work somewhere else, I've got a PPL and soon to have an IMC, thankfully no morgage, (yet!) - Seems like there's some many of us out there!
I too am looking into doing my ATPL part/full time in the future. Need some more money though. If anyone knows of any jobs going in the I.T area that require V.B/SQL etc.. I would love to hear from anyone!!!! (yes yes yes I know this isnt the right place to ask, but hey, who knows..)
I've been flying for nearly two years now. If anyone needs any answers regarding PPL or IMC feel free to mail me.

Best of luck to you all

[Shanks]

G_High (and other ITers),

Go to <a href="http://www.jobserve.co.uk" target="_blank">www.jobserve.co.uk</a> select IT, select contract or permanent (contracting isn't secure but it pays the bucks), input your skills and away you go.

Had a quick look search for VB and SQL and there seems quite a lot about, e.g 2-3 years experince pays up to £430 a day!

Good Luck people.

[Vicious Squirrel]

Hi there,

Another one here. I'm a 24yr old graduate working in research and not earning a whole lot (14K basic, ouch)! No morgatge (good), no girlfriend (bad?), got a degree and all that and have been researching flying schools, rules and regulations, different training paths and flying jobs, foreign licences etc etc etc for the longest time! Can't afford any flying other than gliders (though I have some pilot friends who are VERY understanding), but have got enough hours to know that I want nothing more than this.

So, I've found a school I like, and as I can't finance it my folks have bravely agreed to guarantor for me so I can borrow the money for a CPL/IR/Multi and CFI/CFII licences. The catch (if indeed it is one) is that I would never dare do this in the UK. I'm a Yank (apparently, though I've never lived there) so I'm going to train in the USA for the FAA licences with the view to working there, at least until I have a worthwhile number of hours to convert or the JAA gets it's sh*t together on foreign licencing issues (so I guess I'll be in the US for some time yet).

If it all goes belly up (which it won't......I hope) I should be able to fall back on my degree for a decent wage, something that's not possible in the UK so it seems.

I'd love to fly in the UK, but it's just too expensive.

It's a terrifying step, 'cause it's a huge risk. But if you know that it's all you want to do and there's no other way then you just have to go for it, just so long as you know what you're getting into. This advice comes sraight from my family and I realise that few people have that sort of support. The loan is a morgatge looking for a house!.... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Best of luck,

VS

[Pilot Pete]

Springo

I am ex-IT now 757. This is how I did it.

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010430" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010430</a>

Good luck

PP

[LAVDUMPER]

Pilot Pete,

Good to see you back on the forum - I really enjoyed your story, etc. - very inspirational...

How are things going at your company for you (hopefully no layoffs imminent)? Do you still enjoy flying charter, or do you think you might eventually fly for a scheduled carrier (i.e., Easyjet or BA)?

Do you still enjoy the 757? Do you have any favorite charter destinations yet (i.e., Malaga or Gran Canaria)?


Cheers (and I hope you continue to add to your story on this forum so that we can see how things are going...)

[Pilot Pete]

Lav

It's been quite a while, mainly down to yet another chapter in my career unfolding since Sep 11th.

Not wishing to hijack this thread I'll keep it fairly simple. Yes, redundancy threat, notice probably at the end of Jan. Still love the flying, charter is great, probably too old for BA anyway (to get any descent seniority that is), favourite destination is anywhere out of the UK as it means I'm flying, still building the route knowledge which is slow due to 3 flights a month in winter.

I'll update the story at an appropriate time.

PP

[Springo]

Thanks for keeping the replies coming. Still haven't figured out the master plan to get money in the bank, although the only answer to something like that is to save like ******* and live like a hermit for a while.
I have sent my CV off to various agencies looking for a new job. I have said that I'm willing to work anywhere but the further away from home I go the more I want. One guy at an agency asked me what kind of job I was looking for. I replied "Look mate, I'll be honest with you, I'm being mercenary. I want money"
Obviously I won't be coming out with that at interview.

Pilot Pete - I'd already read your story and found it excellent reading.

Oh well, off to newmonday.com to send out more CV's.

Springo

[G SXTY]

Fascinating thread - my two penneth.

For those of us towards the start of their modular training who haven’t yet jacked in the day job and committed thousands to an IR, September 11th has probably helped clarify the situation, if nothing else. Until then, I was trying to balance paying the bills with the need (as I saw it) to qualify as quickly as possible, and try and find a job while the sun was still shining. For a few weeks last summer, I even considered resigning from work, re-mortgaging everything down to my underpants, and writing a huge cheque for an integrated course. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Fortunately, caution is my middle name and I didn’t do it (I like being able to sleep at night, knowing the bills are covered). Six months on, I feel extremely lucky not to have over-extended myself. So what next?

As Scroggs (and any commercial pilot worth his stripes) have already pointed out, the industry works on roughly ten year cycles of steady growth, followed by a nosedive. Seemingly random events trigger the collapse (the Gulf war, Bin Laden), but the warning signs are building for some time (e.g. overcapacity). The crucial thing to remember – particularly for those in their early 20s who think they’ve missed the boat <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> – is the long term trend, which is on and ever upwards. Aircraft are becoming ever more efficient, pushing seat costs down, while disposable income (again, long term) is ever increasing. The inevitable result is increased demand for air travel (and we haven’t even mentioned the extra stimulus of low-cost carriers).

Eurocontrol predict aircraft movements will double between 2000 & 2010. Think about that for a second, and consider whether it really matters if it takes you six months longer to qualify than you planned. The caveat – as is continually pointed out in these pages – is that keeping an IR current is very expensive, so in so far as you can, don’t commit to this until you are confident of the employment situation (or you can finance keeping it current yourself).

So, bearing in mind the long term, my PPL / IMC & night will take another year or so. My ATPL writtens (and a little hours building) will take another year, and all the while I will stay with the day job, paying the bills and sleeping at night. Then, assuming the market is healthier than today (God help us if it isn’t) I’ll allow another year for the CPL/IR, which will give me a shiny licence around January 2005.

Allowing up to 2 years to find that first job (and possibly instructing for a while), I’m aiming to be in a right hand seat by my 35th birthday. That would also put me right in the middle of a 10 year cycle, and – hopefully – some way up the seniority ladder before the next collapse.

Now I can’t tell anyone what’s right for them (and an awful lot can happen in 5 years) but the plan makes sense to me, today. Just don’t ask me to predict tomorrow’s lottery numbers. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Springo]

Hey G SXTY

A well written post which makes sense.

To the moderator: sorry about the language in my last post- didn't know what the rules where. I post a lot on skydiving sites and pretty much anything goes on those in terms of language.

regards

Springo

[Rowley]

G-SXTY

Cool post,Makes more than sense to me mate, Its gospel!!!!!!


Im the same as you G-SXTY except i plan on instructing before even looking atthe airlines. I have even budgeted for it.
The best advice i could give is to take a career break. Although im aware not all employers offer this!

Rob

[Murray_NN]

Guys and Gals,

I know this is not the right place to ask, but can someone help me out how to start in IT?

It pays well and thats what I need to get my ATPL quicker.

you can mail me at [email protected]

I would appreciate to hear from you.

Thanks!

[Springo]

Well, as I started this post hopefully I can decide to go OT on it too.
A quick run down on my IT career to date.
Finished Uni and got a job in the South East paying £12,500pa (yes, you read that right).
Over 2 years my pay rose to £17,500 and I had lots more experience and had passed some Microsoft exams.
Got another job on £23,000 and passed more exams and am presently on £27,500 (have earned a lot more due to on-call and overtime however that has all stopped now due to cut backs).
So IT isn't all mega-bucks.

As for what to do to get into IT. Take any job you can, even if it is picking up the phone and logging technical calls (thats how I started) because if you don't know anything about computers then that is a good place to start. Also try:
<a href="http://www.jobserve.com" target="_blank">www.jobserve.com</a>
<a href="http://www.newmonday.com" target="_blank">www.newmonday.com</a>

I'm looking for another job at the moment but the market is only just picking up so it may take time.

One question: as I'm totally new to all of this and don't have any flying time what does the abbreviation Wx stand for (I'm managing to cope with most other abbreviations on here)?

[G SXTY]

WX = Weather.

(And in the if you're flying in the UK, you'd better get used to it). <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Springo]

I thought it was weather but couldn't figure why it had the x in there.