the futur of our JAR-FCL!

[superpilot68]

(sorry for my bad english)
I would like to give my point of view about this JAR-FCL.
JAR FCL has been set by flight schools (and governments in 1997) when most guys did their training in the USA or Canada.
Since schools "lost" some of their customers, our EU governement gave full power to these Schools resulting in a high cost training and we end with a minimum experience. How many of you are broke with 250 h and no one chance to be hired by an airline??(most ask 500h on type and I dont see things to evoluate before 2-3years).
See? in the US, training is 4 times less expensive, for the same cost in europe, a student will end with 4 times more hours(1500-2000h) and even can buy himself his type rating.
Soon our immigration will provide work permits to US citizen to fly our planes and the line of European citizen in front of the unemployment desk will be long.
Who to blame? our schools who run high cost training, our european governemnt who charge us taxes for anything , insurance companies who ask thousand hours of jet time before employment?I let you to debate but it sounds we falled in a catch 22.

:mad:

[BEagle]

Bonjour, Ronch'...........




.

[Gin Slinger]

BEagle, as a fellow WODC resident (I assume), I feel you're being slightly disingenuous.

I've only experienced JAR-FCL, and it seams very restrictive. Example, 700 hrs required before any single pilot IFR...

Diesel must be the way forward, Jet A1 can only be the way GA can prosper in Europe.

I might write some more eloquent prose when my pissedness subsides.

We really need an FAA - cheap fuel, no piss taking fees, and cheap Instrument Ratings, then GA may well prosper in the UK!

[BEagle]

Perhaps - but it sounded just like a Ronchonner rant of time gone by....

WODC - yup! And it isn't an American radio station!!

[superpilot68]

hello Beagle,
I sound like ronchy, but I can tell you there is in this world a bunch of folks who think like ronchoner, means no CAA taxes no landing fees...you see what I mean?
I have not yet met one guy who told me he is satisfied with the system we have in europe and I really think ronchy was right since the begining.
In the long term someone will have to pay for this mess we/they have created in the aviation education.
So if you have any smart comments to make about your/our futur, post it here!

:(

[timzsta]

The whole JAA thing is a beaurocratic nightmare (as is trying to spell it). It has got out of control with the JAA and will only get worse with EASA.

Went to a CAA GA safety presentation back in November, where one of the CAA Doctors spoke about medical requirements under JAA. He said that there has not been one instance yet where the UK has said a medical standard under JAA needs to be tightened. Every case put forward by the CAA has been for less restrictive requirements. The argument put forward has been those standards used by the FAA - which has more licensed pilots on its books then the rest of the world put together. And whats more its accident rate is the same or if not better than that in the UK.

Furthermore the is no charge made by the FAA for the issue of a PPL, it was £143 last year to get mine issued, for a scrappy brown wallet and some bits of paper printed with a bubblejet. I believe from a friend its about £80 to have the words "night rating" added to your PPL. Please correct if I am wrong. Also there are no landing fees in the US, fuel is a quarter the price (because its not taxed in anyway like it is hear).

EASA is only going to make it worse. Read in Flight International letters section today that JAA FCL is going to abolish modular courses for fATPL, only expensive integrated courses will be allowed, because the JAA things that pilots who come from a modular course are unsafe.

But alass, nothing will done. To many people up top with fingers in places.

[superpilot68]

good coments timtsa,
I do not know where u get these informations about abolition of modular training, but i dont see myself and other pilots with thousand hours of flight time to integrate a full intergrated course.
As long wanabe pilots are willing to pay a fortune for their training, why these people working for the government would make things easier for us?

[Mintflavour]

Abolish the Modular ATPL....
Alot of instructors instruct for a hobbie, they got to their current position by part time courses in there own time, If the modular route was abolished I feel that there could be great shortage of pilots (when the market picks up and modular was abolished). Plus I feel that modular student can potentially be the most determined 'pilots to be' as we are likley to be holding a seperate career at the same time. I wish these top nobs would put their thinking caps on before coming out with these bizare remarks.

mint

[Send Clowns]

Superpilot

Your English is perfectly understandable!

I would like to point out though that you have completely the wrong idea of the European schools, although I can only talk for the UK. I work for a school in Southern England.

The schools were not consulted on JAA implementation, and that fact caused massive problems in 2000 when the groundschool was found to be completely unworkable. The implementation of JARs was a massive expense to the schools, and also reduced their business as people did not want to start the new course at first, and those that did were delayed in training as all failed the exams.

This and the extra complication of the course forced schools to raise prices as courses had to be extended and reduced student numbers on intake and the numbers passing who went on to fly, and therefore hit profits in the schools such that the one I was working for at the time was very vulnerable after September 11th and went out of business.

The schools do not really control prices of courses. Profits are very low and instrutors really rather poorly-paid compared to their expertise - most of my coleagues do it because we love the work. Compared to other industries I have worked in rate for groundschool lectures are rediculously low - as little as £6 per hour, which is comparable to charges in subsidised government colleges for adult education! Most costs come from regulations, fees and taxes. Here in the UK we even pay VAT (sales tax) on courses :*

The schools are not at fault here, they were not given the choice. Blame the politicians and bureaucrats!

[RVR800]

JAA-FCL

1. More Cost
2. More Time
3. More Difficult
4. Less chance of a job

None-Bureacratic.....

[superpilot68]

apparently the safety standard is higher in europe than in the states, higher standard means more expensive flights, more expensive means we have to save money to fly.Less money means less flights, less flights mean more dangerous...see the catch 22?

today I rent an aircraft in the states after 1 hour check out, as I was previously in europe without touching a plane for 1 year due to JAA restrictions, gosh it was hard to fly.even my 200h CFI can fly better than me (I have 10 times more). Why? cuz we have a higher standard in europe.Lot of groundschool, no fly...

Higher standards do not mean safer!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

RVR800, you said:

JAA-FCL

1. More Cost
2. More Time
3. More Difficult
4. Less chance of a job

1. Not true for the Inegrated vs CAP509 courses. BAe at Prestwick were asking £55,000 for a CAP509 in 1991 and in 2001 they were still asking £55,000 for an Integrated course albeit now in Jerez. The medical has gone up out of all proportion to inflation but the rest is kind of in line. As part of the JAR flight training syllabus aims was that of replacing expensive airtime with cheaper Sim time where appropriate. This in fact occurred with the inclusion of considerable FNPT2 time counting towards license issue.

2. Again a CAP509 course was quoted as a year and often a tad more - like the Integrated. The Modular route can see you go from nothing to CPL issues in well under 6 months. Under the old Self Improver scheme the building of 700hrs would take 6 months alone.

3. The flying tests on the Integrated course are now far more fluid than the somewhat uneven hurdles one faced under CAP509 flight testing. Certainly the groundschools now compared to pre-JAR have all taken advantage in multimedia technology. I shudder when I compared my 1999 PPSC notes with the CD ROM offerings of the major groundschools. Chalk and cheese. The exam pass rates are now at historic levels and during their introduction the pass marks were lowered and tricky questions were discarded on favourable terms.

4. Barring the economic climate for airlines over which JAR has no control one could argue there are now more chances of a job. You can now fly German aircraft, French, Spanish, Italian etc. etc. Assuming of course you have all the necessary linguistic skills there are now many more potential jobs to apply for.


There is a slight tendency for people to look back on the pre-JAR training system with rose colored specs. They believe training was cheaper and the exams easier.

They weren't.

WWW

[redbar1]

Hi,

Well spoken, WWW.

Why are a number of pilots using the equation "Many Hrs=Safe pilot"? It is an assumption, yes, and it is relatively easy to measure. But I think we have to agree that many hrs doesn't guarantee a safe pilot.

Put a monkey in front of a computer keyboard for 1000 hrs - do you get a superb computer expert or a very bored and complacent monkey??

It is important to remember that the Quality of flight experience is also part of the equation.

Another matter: to be taken fully seriously, one should stop mixing taxes, fees and training costs and blaming JAR-FCL for everything, almost including tomorrows x-wind! Please.

[African Drunk]

WWW

On your point four don't you mean UK JAR holders can work for UK and Irsh operators and every other european JAR licence holder can work here (particually cheap eastern europeans for BA).