virgin f/o's [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Pnooze

15th Feb 2003, 14:06

I am a year 5 F/O the A340. My take home after tax, pension etc is 2480 pounds. This figure can vary by about 200 quid depending on your pension contributions and day off payments etc. We have an on going dispute with the co. at the moment over pay which will be resolved one way or the other in the coming months. Good routes, nice girls and about 14 days off per month. Long time to command though. I am about 2 years away, and new joiners should work on about 10-12 years at least. Hope this helps.

springbok449

15th Feb 2003, 14:37

Thanks for that info. you're right nice girls...
Is the take home similar on the 747-400 fleet pnooze?
regards,
Bokkie.

987654

15th Feb 2003, 15:30

Anybody out there having recently been invited for an interview with VS. What was your level of experience (total, Airbus 3xx?)

I have a total of 3800
A330 1000
A320 1600
MD11 1000

Could that be sufficient to hope for an invitation to an interview?
I Know it is running slow for the moment due to the Irak conflict. Just interested if there might be a chance afterwards having my CV already on file.

Dan Winterland

15th Feb 2003, 16:48

Pay is the same regardless of fleet. As a year 1 F/O, expect to net £2200 a month after pension deductions. Allowances are paid in local currency, about 120 USD for the first night, a bit less for subsequent nights.

Pnooze

15th Feb 2003, 17:23

Yep the pay on the -400 is the same. The allowances vary considerably at each destination average about 400 pounds per month of which about 300 quid gets spent down route in my case. This obviously varies on how much beer you drink etc.

Dan Winterland

15th Feb 2003, 22:06

Just 300? Airbus lightweight! ;)

scroggs

17th Feb 2003, 23:05

£2280's the most I've ever taken home before day-off payments (yr 5), though I do pay the max 15% pension (thus don't have to give it to the ex!). I seem to have done a bit better than Pnooze on allowances, averaging just over £500 monthly over the last year or so. Just as well - I have to take most of mine home! Roll on the pay restructuring - if Gulf War 2 doesn't screw it all up.

Flying Clog

18th Feb 2003, 10:56

No wonder nobody wants to work for Virgin anymore with pay that low... bloody hell! I only earn slightly less than that on an Embraer 145 as first officer.

Smokie

18th Feb 2003, 11:05

Some colleagues of mine have just joined and inform me that there is a 20% rise in the pipeline. I do hope its not just another rumour, as its sounds a good deal at last .

B767300ER

19th Feb 2003, 04:22

Any chance VS would hire a yank?

I've got 7500 total, 5500 jet, 3000 wide-body
and I've flown 727/737/757/767,L-1011,DC-10,A-320 and MD-80.

Don't have a JAR lisence or EU passport.

Alloy

19th Feb 2003, 09:45

No Way.

B767-300ER There is no reason why a EU airline should employ any yank.

terry thomas

19th Feb 2003, 09:48

767/300er, you'll require both of those mate. However unless you're unemployed at the moment I'd think carefully. Like Scroggs I've been there 6 years, now possibly another 2/3 before a crack at a command course, maybe even longer as the current pay offer is an attempt to get us to become a 850 hr outfit.
the current management plan is to not increase the pilot establishment beyond what is strictly necessary.
Now, look at those pay numbers too. To live in the south east of england where we're based approx £1000 or more will be required a month to enter the property market. That plus a NEED to put in the max into our laughable pension scheme doesn't leave you much in the land of expensive petrol and the new £3 pound pint.
As for the girls, ah those were the days, but not sadly as much these days.
I gues that there are plenty of other outfits that would take a guy with your exp. and pay you better. However I'll gladly get a round in lagos if you come.
good luck

Goforfun

21st Feb 2003, 07:32

I usually take home £2800-2900- as a first officer on the old Go contract........

i didn't realise Virgin where badly paid? I was hoping to apply! Do you enjoy your jobs with Virgin? And how secure do you think VS will be through another war?

Thanks

skid

21st Feb 2003, 22:44

Thanks for all the replies folks. Can I just get one clarification. It seems that the average take home in the bank is about 2300 gbp, can you just confirm that the duty pay which is paid in usd is on top of that. ie your total in the pocket each month, so long as its not spent on beer, is about 2600gbp ish. cheers,

oh by the way, if it does all go belly up in the middle east, does anyone know if the company has contingency plans for any contraction in the business? I realise that this is a big concern to us all, but I work in a different segment of the market at the moment so my take on the situation may be different.

987654, my experience level similar to yours.

Macman

21st Feb 2003, 23:19

B767-300ER,

No problem - as long as we all get jobs at Southwest in return!
Oh I forgot the Atlantic is a one way street isn't it?

B767300ER

22nd Feb 2003, 22:21

Southwest? You'd be better off at RyanAir or EZJet. Same type of operation with probably the same pay compensation---B-737s only, up and down 6x per day, short overnights and only $2500 USD to start monthly!

As far as American air carriers hiring foreign nationals, I can positively confirm it is true. There are many Irish, German, Fillipino, Indian, Canadian, French and others working for American and United.

Having flown VS and thoroughly enjoying the flights, I would gladly work for them if they'd hire Yanks. You must understand, since 9-11, there are over 8000+ furloughed/laid-off pilots from large US carriers looking for a minute number of jobs. I'm now one of them. :(

GreenArc

22nd Feb 2003, 23:08

Macman,

You need to get over it. There are large numbers of Brits at both AA and UA. Far greater as a percentage, I would reckon, than Yanks at Virgin. I can't even count the number of European nationals I've worked with (or been married to) in the last 20 years. One way street my arse!

GreenArc

B767300ER

23rd Feb 2003, 17:15

GreenArc, you're absolutely right, it is'nt a one-way street.

I suppose you're one of those chaps paying more than one alimony, eh?

Cheers!http://www.starmanauctions.com/twa.gif

Ricky Butcher

23rd Feb 2003, 18:37

There certainly are plenty of Brits and Europeans working in the USA, and they'll have got there by one of three ways:

1) Getting their Green Card sponsored by an employer because their skills are in short supply and staffed cannot be sourced in the USA - doesn't happen for pilots.

2) Getting their Green Card granted by the US Government from the annual quota for oppressed countries or those with special ties to the USA (eg Poland, Italy, Ireland) - doesn't apply to Brits.

3) Having acquired American citizenship by birth or through marriage to an American (in which case they would have to renounce their previous citizenship), or by being granted 'resident alien' status through marriage.

So there you are, all you gotta do is marry an American and the chance to work for UA/AA will be yours. Yanks, you're more than welcome to come over here and try for a job, you just gotta marry a citizen of the EU, acquire European citizenship and convert your licence to a JAA one. Couldn't be simpler!

scroggs

23rd Feb 2003, 20:26

Skid, I refer you to my earlier post. For what it's worth, the starting pay fo an FO at VS is around £39k pa. Down-route allowances, as has already been stated, add a further £300 to £500 monthly. Sector pay is worth no more than £100 monthly. There are other payments, such as pay for working on days off (fairly rare), delay pay, and a few other extras.

A new pay structure is under discussion; the company's latest pay offer has been decisively rejected. The likely result of these negotiations will be a reasonably enhanced basic pay, with some element of extra pay per flying hour. Most of the non-subsistence payments will probably disappear. What the net result of this will be in terms of percentage is not yet certain - and any deal may be scuppered, or at least delayed, by the forthcoming war.

B767300ER, as long as you have the right to live and work in UK and obtain a JAA ATPL, you would be welcome at Virgin. There are one or two Yanks here. 987654's experience is right in the ballpark also.

As for security of employment through another war, who knows? The company certainly has contingency plans, but I doubt anyone really knows what the effects of Desert Storm 2 will be to us, or how long they'll last.

Pnooze

24th Feb 2003, 12:56

Skid
With reference to yr post regarding pay on top of salary, let me try to clarify. Perhaps i was a little flippant with my beer comment.!! The allowances vary very little on a monthly basis but vary a huge amount depending on destinations which should be taken into account if you plan on counting towards the family budget. For example a 2 night LA is 223 USD. All monies are paid in cash when you check in at the hotel, not in salary. This in theory needs to last you for 2 breakfasts, 2 lunchs and 2dinners, which at local diners/restaurants will set you back about 120 USD., unless you take yr own food or live on Big-Macs. A couple of hours in the bar for 2 nights @ 6-8 dollars for beer/wine, and there is another 50 bucks up the wall! You get 1 full day off, and any activities other sitting by the pool in Summer will cost of course. Throw in 10-20 dollars in taxis from eateries and a 10 dollar phonecard to phone home and there is none left. However if you are a single guy it could be argued that for the 4 days you are away you are not spending yr salary in the bank.
Other destinations are even worse especially South Africa at about 70 pounds for 2 nights. The only place i bring back any cash from is Tokyo, usually 80-100STG you will get about 3-4 a year.
Hope this is of some help. Rgds :rolleyes: :mad:

Michael707767

24th Feb 2003, 13:34

"B767-300ER There is no reason why a EU airline should employ any yank"

Thats fair. I also happen to think there is no reason for a US airline to hire someone from Europe.

skid

24th Feb 2003, 20:48

Scroggs/pnooze, thanks for the clarification. Reason being, my current employer has a very different pay structure. hope I might share a big mac with you all soon,cheers all.:D

SpannerInTheWerks

27th Feb 2003, 10:41

This is all very interesting.

As a SFO at easyJet I currently take home between £2,500 and £2,800 per month.

I have never had any complaints about the money at EZY, it's just the lifestyle - but that's another story.

Regards

Std Speed

27th Feb 2003, 11:02

Under the new pay deal (which starts tommorow :D ) as a 3rd year BA FO (Dep) I will take home around £3,200 - £3,400 a month.

Gatwick is going to be working quite hard though.

scroggs

27th Feb 2003, 14:31

Jeez, my salary before deductions was only £3800!

batty

28th Feb 2003, 08:14

Probably just dreaming but are Virgin ever interested in pilots with a total time of 2000hrs, 1800 of which are B737?:)

Out of interest my take home is usualy about £2800-£3100 (net) of which £1200 is basic and the rest is variable sector pay.

scroggs

28th Feb 2003, 14:15

batty, the normal requirement is for 3000 hours, 2500 at a push. There have been people taken with less than 2000, but only when pilots were few and far between!

If you do come, be prepared for a big pay cut!

skid

1st Mar 2003, 19:45

Just for the info of those about to or thinking of applying. Making this move is all about the lifestyle and only lifestyle. All of the candidates at my interview were there for that reason alone. All were willing to take paycuts of up to 20K to come to Virgin. All were from charter/lowcost/regional airlines doing short haul multi sector days and had found that they had no life to speak of at home. The company is very up front that the pay/conditions are only industry average. But, if you are interested in doing and can cope with longhaul then the lifestyle is good. (Those of you in Virgin tempted to shoot me down please allow for the fact that I don't actually do the job yet, so can only form a view from what I've seen and heard.)

The Big Easy

2nd Mar 2003, 00:27

Skid

I also went for the interview and the pay quoted wasn't just low, it was very low for long-haul heavy drivers ! As for lifestyle.. F/O'S average 80hrs a month due shortage........ What lifestyle ?

TBE. :*

gonadz

2nd Mar 2003, 09:03

Speaking from the left hand seat: The pay IS poor, the lifestyle was good but now is not AND if the company get their way it will get very much worse.

As for the right hand seat, this company does not deserve the quality of folk it has in this seat and will have to dramatically improve its pay offer if it wants to hold onto some of these.

Do not come to Virgin for the quality of life, you will likely be dissapointed. Pay is well below the industry norm for long haul. Time to command for new joiners is probably in excess of 10 years now. Only come if you are desperate to fly a big plane on long haul routes.

Best advice: Before applying have a good talk with someone already doing the job.

terry thomas

2nd Mar 2003, 10:10

Completely correct, two of my good friends have just left for warmer climes and unless the pay offer and attitude changes I will be following them. There is is a major probelm at virgin now which is ongoing between the pilots and management, somewhere along the line it will change however the jury is very muchout on how it resolves itself.
Lifestyle? Remember this is a long haul operator that runs primarily east-west, therefore days off are often spent recovering from jet lag. With new jaa regs the company will be able to squeeze even more out of us and pay us even less given their latest plans.
Oh and of course first and foremost remember than in the last round of redundancies and lay offs the low cost sector actually got bigger!! we will suffer during and after any war
My advice, keep your 20% get rid of your income tax and go to emirates, lower command time better money and more sun.

Macman

2nd Mar 2003, 22:55

GreenArc

I don't need to get over anything mate - I've been at Easyjet 2 years now and I couldn't care less what's happening in the USA. You lot will never understand our sense of humour will you?

Cheers.

Pnooze

4th Mar 2003, 10:05

Some interesting posts.
It is true that the lifestyle is not what it used to be, and might be about to get worse, but personally i prefer long haul to short haul. I have done both charter and scheduled short stuff, and find it much more tiring. However 2 good friends of mine did 2 years here and left to go back to S/haul. Horses 4 courses.
My roster this month is about 80 hrs with 12 days off. That means 12 nights in your own bed and 19 days on the road. Not everybodys cup of tea.

skid

4th Mar 2003, 11:48

blimey, it sounds like out of the frying pan and into the fire!! Thanks for all the comments and advice. I've got hold of a complete 340 fleet roster (deidentifed) and having scanned thru this the average days off at home, is about 14. I would guess that its about the same for the 7-400. The bu***ration factor is the amount of standbys you all seem to be getting which have to be done 1.5 hours from report point. How do the guys who live a long way from base deal with this? Also do you have to 1.5 from base for an 'available'?
Looking at the posts about my current firm, the choice may be taken away by Mr. Hussain and inept our management anyway!! Its just might turn out to be leaving one sinking ship to join another, what a gamble, my dad was right when he said I should be an accountant!!!!:(

Pnooze

4th Mar 2003, 14:55

Skid
Standby duty is an interesting point. The maximum is 35 a year. In order to stay within this a typical block is 3 followed by 2 av days which are in theory unlimited. This is because a lot of trips are 5 days. An av is 8.30am-10.30am contactable and 12 hours notice. If this did not happen then a 5 day trip would incur 2 day off payments. I get called on average every other block, but rarely at short notice. About once or twice a year on average. About half the crew live outside the 2 hr range many from as far as the south of France. The options include bed and breakfast, staying with friends, or driving to a motorway service station 2 hrs from base with a mobile for 8 hrs!!. Many do. Most stay at home and chance it with the back up of car won"t start etc. I am one of those that ring crewing the night before a sby block rather than a phone call at 6am, the theory being that most crew go sick the day before rather than short notice, which could really drop someone in it. Hope this helps

scroggs

5th Mar 2003, 09:26

It's also likely that standby will become a monthly block, no more than once a year, in the fairly near future. That will ease things for those who live far away (we have pilots in France, Spain, even South Africa!), though for those of us who live on the border of the two-hour limit (not one and a half hours) it might be a bit of a pain if you get called out a lot.

Your interpretation of the roster is about right. The fatigue problems come when you have a Far East trip followed inmediately by a USA one; the jet lag is not for the faint-hearted! That said, like Pnooze, I infinitely prefer the long-haul lifestyle to short-haul, and things would have to get a lot worse before I'd be persauded to leave (there are family factors in my case, too).

skid

5th Mar 2003, 11:07

Interesting, HR people definately said that sby was 1.5hrs from base, but they also said that getting to base was considered to be on the Bus which takes you in from the carpark. Thanks for the AV comments, I should have read your ops gen closer for that answer. The block sby sounds like a good idea, so long as you still got your min days off as well, otherwise its a month away from home. Just out of interest, it was also mentioned that 8 day trips may be starting soon , any ideas what thats about, I thought that it mignt be the legendary tieup to Australia. Also, is there any advantage/disadvantage to a LHR or LGW base. I realise that you are all considered London based, but apparently we are able to select if we want our cars parked in LHR or LGW. Another query is about the request system, if say, you've got an important weekend coming up which you don't want to use a block of leave for (min 5 days from Ops Gen) are you able to request that weekend off and presumable your trips around it? If so, and assuming you are on the line which gets 1st choice that month, what do you find are the chances of the request being granted. If you guys are getting bored with all these questions, I quite understand, but I bet a lot of other people out there are interested in the answers you're giving.

ps gonadz, I specifically asked about the effects on work patterns that the adoption of JAA sub part Q by the UK would make on VS. I was told that it was not likly to as you have BALPA negoitated FTL scheme on top of the company interpretation of the rules. I cannot see any of you guys voting to change the existing scheme if it would detract from your lifestyle. I suspect that any imposition of the rules at any company in the UK may just be the the final straw which would unify the UK pilot population to strike action.

Pnooze

6th Mar 2003, 08:34

Hi Skid
I will try and awnser yr questions one at a time and hope it helps.

1. The sby is 2 hours from the telephone call to being in the office. However crewing are fairly flexible with flt deck, and treat us as responsible adults. I fly out of LHR but live 20 mins from LGW, and get the co. shuttle bus which runs every hour or so. If you just miss a bus 2 hrs is impossible but crewing are understanding and know that you are doing yr best. As long as you make departure time then no worries.

2. Yep monthly sby is on the way soon, and is generally welcomed. It will probably be about 4-5 blocks of sby about 3-5 days long with 2-3 days off in between, but this is just supposition at the moment. I would not be surprised if half of the month gets filled in with trips before the 1st of the month

3. In the 5 years i have been here Australia has been on the cards, which would be a 8-10 day trip, however nothing doing yet. A conversation with a director several weeks ago hinted at the possibility next year providing that 5th freedom rights are av from HKG. Watch this space.

4. All flt deck are London based, although the A340 only flies from LHR, but the B747 flies fairly evenly from both. Where you choose to have your carpark pass is up to you. In practice if you are on the Boeing and park at LHR but are flying from LGW then you have to get the co. shuttle bus. However the guys often swap trips to avoid this.

5. Trip and day off requests are handled on a rotating seniority basis. On the A340 there are 3 groups of F/Os. Each group spends 4 months as top group, 4 in the middle and 4 at the bottom per year. Within each group is date of joining seniority. When in top group you pretty much get wot you want. At the bottom of the req form is a comments section where you can explain that it is yr wifes birthday, kids sports day, etc. and rostering will do their best. On the A340 we are lucky to have a very good rostering lady who always does her best to heip you meet family commitments. I do not know the -400 roster people so can"t comment. Sometimes it is better to ask for an unpopular trip getting back on a Friday to get the Weekend off rather than asking for the actual days off. It depends where you are in the system, seniority wise. You will soon get the hang of the system.

Hope this all helps. Post again if you have any other Q's :p

scroggs

7th Mar 2003, 02:24

I would guess that ops' reference to 8-day trips is probably to do with the LGW-TOB/GRA schedule which strts in May (I think). This will be on the 747-200, so you won't be doing that! Australia has been on and off for years. I'm not holding my breath. A340 now has one schedule out of LGW (PHC), but all pilots (744 and 340) are based at LHR. It's up to you which airport you park at; I have passes for both.

skid

8th Mar 2003, 16:10

thanks for all your help. Just have to wait for the yea or nay letter now, then sit down and make the decision. Once again, judging from the hits this thread has had, its been very useful to many. cheers.

P1 Forever

15th Mar 2003, 14:50

Have any of you Virgin chaps had Sir Branson sitting in the jump seat while you fly?

scroggs

15th Mar 2003, 22:38

Yes, but not since the rules changed.

Flyer Flier

16th Mar 2003, 14:54

I would agree with all my colleagues' posts above. However, I would also like to re emphasise the lifestyle choice and say that I personally thoroughly enjoy the long haul life. I gave up my jet command took a pay cut to come here. Sure, things could be better and with all the hard work work our company council are doing, I hope that T&C's will improve. However, the approach to your own happiness is often in your own mind and a very personal choice. I would recommend anyone to try and understand what makes themselves tick and then match their lifestyle to that.
Sure, I could be earning more cash at a low cost carrier, but I doubt whether I might have over the last few weeks: walked up Table Mountain, taken my wife shopping in the markets in Dehli, or hired a convertible and driven up the Pacific Coast HighWay. That may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is certainly mine and one of the reasons that I still look forward to going to work. My colleagues (both flight and cabin crew) are invariably nice people and extremely professional, I very much enjoy their company when out and about downroute. Again on a completely personal front, I have done enough multi sector days and night Dalamans in my past to find the long haul flying enjoyable.
Sure, someone else can reply with tales of how they are fatigued, away from their kids and fed up, but they are not me and more importantly..not you.
I hope you get the offer which will provide you with the chance to make up your own mind based on your knowledge of your own circumstances and personality.
Hopefully will be able to buy you a beer sometime with the proviso against: laid off again/ no payrise/Virgin go bust (delete as applicable).

;) ;)

B767300ER

16th Mar 2003, 19:57

FlyerFlier: When you drove up the PCH, did you drive on the RIGHT side of the road???:D

I envy you, because I think VS is a great company. I would enjoy the flying you do with the crews you have. Too bad I don't have a JAA.

Guess I'll apply to these guys:
https://reservations.hootersair.com/images/header.jpg

Goforfun

16th Mar 2003, 20:02

Scroggs,

Would you say Virgin is in a better position now than 9/11? Or still on dodgy ground for new entrants?

Ignition Override

17th Mar 2003, 04:42

767300ER: Sorry to read about your layoff notice, and have no info on VS. As for other licenses, a buddy here was one of only about two US pilots who flew for Cathay years ago (when it was a very good job) and said that the foreign license system over there (similar to British/JAR?) stressed practical but also lots of very useless academic aviation knowledge, which does not improve one's piloting skills, from what he had noticed... C. said that he was trained in Australia.

By the way, I've talked to at least eight pilots with one of our regional partners based here, who are from Scanadinavia, South Africa, Israel or the Netherlands. Have no idea how they were "sponsored". My company has some British, a South African, a Hungarian ( I flew with R.), the Dutch lady who flew the Saab, plus others who I've never met.

A pilot I talked to today applied about two years ago to Cathay and of the three applicants, for a possible base in ANC or Canada, said that the company hired the one young pilot with very limited experience (less than 1,500 hours or so). The other two guys had at least 8,000 hours of transport jet flying. Maybe certain foreign airlines seem to prefer the very naiive young pilots over those who have many years of experience, prefering the ability to be indoctrinated over a well-rounded aviation background. Sometimes the IOE can be 80-100 hours or more, and for the first job as a turboprop FO! The younger, the more gullible, I suppose. There is also a top US airline which years ago preferred many of their pilots to be both married and have no previous exposure to civilian aviation, but the company's name "escapes me" at the moment. They needed no detailed scope language, or so they believed.

I wish you and the others much luck out there.

Shanwick Shanwick

17th Mar 2003, 20:32

The only way to survive "Financially" at Virgin is to move offshore. My take home, including down-route allowances is approximately £3800 per month after National Insurance and 6% to the pension. Standby's are a pain in the arse but otherwise life is good once you learn how to manipulate the roster.

scroggs

18th Mar 2003, 09:57

GoForFun

Are you talking about the company's financial position, or about time to command?

As far as I understand it the company is pretty sound financially, and it has plans for considerable expansion over the medium term. VS took a loss of c£95m in the aftermath of 9/11, but its cash reserves were still more than adequate. A very extensive cost-reduction exercise has seen the company trading in the black over the last year, though I expect this quarter to be negative. No airline over the Atlantic has had it easy over the last 2 years, and United's ability to charge very low fares while in Chapter 11 has distorted the market somewhat, but we are holding our own!

The expansion I referred to above may take a slight delay thanks to GW2 but, as this week's stock market movements have shown, business and consumer confidence is likely to return quickly once some certainty returns to the Western economies. My bet is that the US and UK will do very well out of the post-Iraq situation, and that recovery will be strong. In that circumstance, the airline may well be able to expand strongly over the next 5 or 10 years. Time to command is unlikely to return to the < 2years that was once common, but should settle at about 7-8 years which is still good compared to most mature long-haul outfits. (Yes, I know you'll get command faster at EK!).

As Flyer Flier states, it's a lifestyle choice. I think the overall package is likely to be considerably improved quite soon, as well.