Esir Busted Or Not?

[2B1ASK1]

Big brother is watching you!
Who is watching big brother?

As yet I have not had the honour of recieving one of these yet dred the day. Whats this all about? police watching you from their fat happy desk, waiting for the moment you breach controlled air space and pounce on you like a savage tiger. who are they trying to protect the 18,000 Private pilot's out there or the 6,000 ATPL and 6,000 CPL pilots or maybe their jobs my blood boils at the thought. :mad:

Picture this your up to your armpit in alligators attempting to navigate an area you probably dont even want to be in, and some idiot at a desk that has been watching you approaching a controlled/restricted or danger area for the last 10 mins that you are now in controlled airspace and has the stupidity to ask you if you are aware of this. if you were aware of it you wouldnt bl***y be there and if he had the slightest ounce of decency he would have told you well before that alledged breach.

Notice the word alledged, as far as I am aware are we not inocent untill proved guilty?

Know your rights if you get one of these suckers be very carefull what you say, unless we are now under a dictatorship or maybe we are and I am just being stupid, we have the right to remain silent. Use that right admit to nothing if you do it can be used against you at a later date.

They will claim that it is in the interest of safety well if it realy was in the interest of safety would they have not warned you before the alledged breach.:confused:

If you do use your born right to remain silent you are not lying in any way, anyone I have talked to that has recieved one of these was not aware of any breach or had any intention to breach any regulations where is the lie in saying you did not breach any reguations. Does the governing body have to be correct? are they? there word against your you are there they are sat in a nice airconditioned room some miles away. has it not been proven in the past that radars lie or can be slightly out? sure has.

Who are the people that control this farse and abuse our given rights, rights that may I add have been fought for with the blood of our fathers and grandfathers.

Im sorry if this sounds like I am bitter perhaps I am, a ledgend in aviation passed away this week 40,000 hours 40,000 hours of flying experience R.I.P LES the so called secret police were always on his back perhaps it was jealousy sad but probably true.

He never gave up the battle no matter how hard they tried so please if he means anything to some of you out there stand up for your rights.:ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

Not quite sure where you're coming from 2B1ASK1 :confused: but as aircrew, you can get pinged for anything from taking a wrong turn on a taxiway, to altitude busts, to deviating from an ATC instruction in the interest of safety.

Let me quote the latter example: SMC is pretty busy. We get cleared all the way to parking. Another A/C requests and commences pushback (this A/C's path would create a conflict with us, and ATC have not advised him of our presence).
Remember, frequency is very congested. We decide to stop short to avoid the conflict and allow the pushback to proceed, but are unable to get a word in to advise ATC of what was happening. (Remember, we are still cleared all the way to parking). We finally get a word in and safely proceed to parking once the other A/C completed pushback.

We thought nothing of it...Just doing our job. Imagine the surprise a couple of days later when summonsed to the Ivory Tower.....

BUT we got pinged......For avoiding a potential collision on the taxiway!:mad:

We thought we did the right thing avoiding a conflict. You could easily blame an individual or individuals for what happened. That's not the point.

Fortunately our account of the events was verified and I heard no more about it. Managed to avoid the Double-Ended Spear on that occasion ;)

Talk to any airline manager and you'll find a plethora of ESIRs on his or her desk. It's all to do with ar$e-covering. ATC do it, we all do it.

Just because you get an ESIR doesn't mean the Evil One is out to get you. They just want to know the facts. I don't know anyone in my organisation that has had action taken against them as a result of an ESIR.

Take a chill pill.

[2B1ASK1]

Huge Jarse

I take you point however call me sceptical but our airspace has been changing over the last few years and is becoming more and more restrictive. Yes in general most ESIR's have no follow up action unless serious but they are being used statistically to make these changes. I would not know how long it take to generated one of these from start to finish but im sure those man hours could have been used better to avoid the breach in the first place.

Most of the ones I deal with GA pilots and in most cases the controllers have plenty of time to give a friendly warning. If its their jobs they are worried this is a good way to make it worse. Aviation is suffering bad at the lower end imposing more restrictions only makes it worse sadly:( .

This is not us and them we need each other to make the skies a safe and happy place. Whats happening to the world are the days fading where communication is becoming a last resort, very sad days perhaps thing are changing half the world is at war after all maybe fighting is a better option than communicating.

KEEP :D AND DONT GIVE UP

[Jenny Talia]

Mate...Relax...

I can't say that I follow your logic.

On one hand you talk about something resembling an uprising of the GA underground allegiance (or some such thing) to quash the CASA infidels, yet on the other hand you talk about how not enough action is taken to prevent the occurence.....

Well, the ball is in your court....any ideas?? The powers that be have had a shot at incident reporting via ESIR, CAIR, 225s' and the rest, but your scientifically validated data has obviously proved this to be a waste of time.

As the good Jarse mentioned, incident reporting is not an excercise in persecution, nor is it 'dobbing'. I've had an ESIR placed against me, and I'm still here! In my case, neither the controller nor myself realised the incident had taken place until it was over, and this is often the case. Do I think the controller would have pulled me up before the occurrence happened had they seen it coming???? Without a doubt!

Other times I've heard a series of radio calls trying to warn some brave GA warrior about impending airspace infringement, often accompanied by all manner of assistance such as suggested headings, and current position updates. Occasionally the driver ignores all the warnings and ploughs into the airspace sans clearance, so what do you expect ATC to do??? Ignore it??? No...

Once any of these reports are lodged they are used to:

Alert the company and crew of the breach, so that the cause can be determined, and allow proper remedial training if it is required. The training is usually left to the company to pursue in-house, as this is usually the most successful, and least intrusive means.

Collate statistics to help identify the most common/hazardous incidents, and instigate the most effective safety policies to address the issue.

If action needs to be taken because someone has broken the law, well so be it, but this hardly ever happens in the real world. If you drove through a red light at an intersection do you think you shouldn't get a ticket??

These things are used as a safety tool, not for persecution as you might think. If you can't cop a little constructive criticism from someone who wants to help fix a few imperfections (which is all they ever usually offer), then perhaps you shouldn't be endangering the genral public by flying in the airspace above them.

[Time Bomb Ted]

2B1ASK1.

I have to respectfully, but loudly disagree with nearly everything to wrote. I too miss the passing of such an asset to aviation as Les, however that does not mean that you should push the barrow of keeping your mouth shut when it comes to VCA's. With around 1200 VCA's occuring in Australia every year, and a very large proportion of them happening in the Sydney Basin, we all really need to have a good look at what the heck we are doing wrong.

A VCA is as dangerous as running a red light with your eyes closed. If you don't believe me, ask any ATC person who has had to witness some very very close calls. The 767 Vs C172 over Sydney comes to mind. I would like you to supply the details of anyone who you have found that has been prosecuted over a VCA in the last say, 20 years. Go on, name one. Bet you can't. It just doesn't happen to those who make honest mistakes.

As an ex CFI, I have had my fair share of pilots who have penetrated CTA without clearances and if any of them want to clam up about what happened, then they knew where the door was and knew me well enough not to come back. I wanted to find out how it happened and try to put steps in place to avoid it happening again. Simple Safety Management. I owe it to Aviation in Australia. Don't you?

If you are unhappy in the way the CASA Flying Operations Inspector is asking you the questions (to find out what happened), then ask to speak to his/her Manager. Keep going up the food chain if they are getting narky with you. Persist in giving the truth so that any trend can be picked up and dealt with.

Openly telling everybody to keep quiet is not only irresponsible, but harmful to safety. If you have made a mistake, own up in the tradition of Aussies, wear the kick in the pants, do a lap of the CTR with an instructor and learn from the experience. Don't whinge about being persecuted by big brother. Wake up to yourself.

[compressor stall]

It's a bit odd that say ATC make a mistake (and is proven as such) but they ping the pilot with an ESIR... and its the first s/he knows about the event.

[Hugh Jarse]

It's all ar$e-covering, Stallie.

As pilots, hopefully we remember the event and are able to give an honest account when the paperwork arrives :}

Also, we don't know what's happening at the console on the other end of the radio. Big Brother might be looking over the ATCO's shoulder, removing the discretion that he or she might normally use?

[compressor stall]

Furry muff 'Jarse,

You did hit the nail on the head re recollection.

Getting pulled into the CPs office and asked for a recount of a flight 7 days prior in which nothing seemed untoward and as such those brain cells were now occupied by the memory of the long tanned slender legs of a Swedish Backpacker.

:}

[I Fly]

It seems to me that the way ESIRs are used at present, they are in self destruct mode. And that is a shame. We DO need something like that for REAL safety issues. 2 recent ESIRs. 1 Aircraft is cleared to land on one runway, another aircraft gets cleared for take-off on same runway, landing aircraft gets told to change to the other parallel runway. The pilot does not like what is developing and goes around. S/he gets pinged for not following instructions. 2 I told an overseas pilot to report “unfamiliar with (location)” according to the AIP. He does so at Moorabbin, Archerfield, Hamilton Island, Parafield and Camden. He only gets pinged at Camden. Why? Was it less ‘dangerous’ at the other locations? Is there an Industrial issue in the Sydney basin? Some ESIRs arrive up to 6 weeks after the event. If they (ASA & CASA) attach so little importance to it, why issue it in the first place. The person (the prosecutor) knows they are going to issue the ESOR and prepare their paperwork while their memory is fresh. The Pilot (the defence) gets to hear about it some weeks later. The recollection is not that clear anymore. Remember the accident investigation school in England that staged an incident. All the would be accident investigators saw something different. The Pilot is not getting justice and we, the other airspace users, are not getting the best out of the system. It is interesting to note that, when a controller gets pinged, it is dealt with in house, in private, with a union Rep. present and the controller gets immediate counselling. Why can’t the same curtesy be applied to pilots. The wording of the ESIR also needs to change. They are written as a statement of fact. Another pilot got pinged for CTA violation at Katoomba when his DME clearly showed he was outside. Was the DME wrong? Maybe. Was the Radar wrong? Maybe. It is not a fact until established as such. It is creating a them and us situation similar to what we had 20 – 30 years ago. I thought that over more recent years we had discovered to be more civilised with one another actually gets more result.

[2B1ASK1]

Thankyou I FLY finaly a bit of common sense shines through. My whole point of bringing the subject up was that the current system is wrong on many levels. I agree that we need these but in its current form it serves only to cause a divide or as you nicely stated an us or them situation. I deal with more of these than I want to they are offensive in word, you are treated like a school child thats done something wrong in the play ground. You are exactly correct a large percentage of these things come to the opps desk up to six weeks sfter the event. **** I cant hardly remember six days ago let alone six weeks.

This is an alledged offence after all and yes it may surprise some people but they are not always correct. They can have a very detremental effect on students, confidence levels drop because they have be told they have been naughty with no clear understanding in some cases as to why. some students can be so distraught by it that they give up when if fact it may have not been correct.

GA pilots are the largest percentage of pilots out there without them most of you big boys would not have a job, after all where else are you going to build up your hours at someone elses cost. Ive had 23 good years in the industry not perhaps as long as some but the fact remains GA is dying these ESIR's in their current form are fuel for the fire. I noticed AOPA have also raised an article this month on the subject have a read its interesting.:D