Anyone flown the Wessex?

[Vfrpilotpb]

I always had the impression that the Wessex was a big cumbersome grunt shifter, I have today witnessed one of these big things doing all manner of movements including some very impressive turns, I salute the pilot for his ability and in giving his former peers at his old college a superb indication of what you can get up too whilst being paid for it, if you are a Ppruner and you see this, you even had SMH watching with awe. Well done that man!

Many regards :)

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Vfrpilotpb

I believe the first attempt by Sikorsky at entering the attack helicopter competition was with a stripped down S-61. I think it was called the Blackhawk.

[John Eacott]

VFR,

Old and tired it may be (me, as well as the Wx), but I always recall the Wessie as a balanced and agile beast. The Wessex V doing an AS12 (or was it AS11, memories going...) attack, which involved a hefty pull up, nose over going almost negative G, then a rapid break after launch, was a testimony to the agility of the airframe, and the grunt from 2 Gnomes. It was almost true Cat A up to MAUW, the junglies would often ferry back on one, following a SE failure.

Who is currently operating them in UK, any non-mil. after Bristow sold them off?

[EESDL]

Got some pics of me inverted over Eire in Walter, taken by a fellow shag who had been dropped off to take the pics....there's trust for you!

[John Eacott]

EESDL,

Scan & post?

[Vfrpilotpb]

John E,. . This pilot did what you have explained plus an aweful lot more, turns that were so tight it seemed that the Wx was stationary almost on its side, with some very excited faces and legs peering down at us from the open door and waving like mad, all with a big serene rotor chugging round.. .Anybody remember the weight of this heli. I have watched the Navy Sharks with their Gazelles, this pilot was every bit as interesting, all just above tree tops!!

[Vfrpilotpb]

I hope this is not too boring, but I have now discovered who the pilot is, and where he flew from, he may not be a Ppruners after all, but I will write to him and offer my thanks for a magnificent display, of some pretty heavy metal at angles normally reserved for Gazelles and other such " Sporty" stuff. .Thank you, for all your interest.. .Peter B

[John Eacott]

Gawd, that sounds like a beefer :rolleyes:

Thanks for the refresher on the HAS1 & 3 ;) , the HU5 and Mk60 were certainly better endowed, with 240rrpm, transient 205 to 258 (extremes, 210 SE to 243 power on). Torque limits were 3520psi/20 secs, 3200 continuous. CRPM was 25,300 max continuous, 26,750 max contingency. Max gross IIRC 13,600lbs. I don't miss watching those gauges whiz round one little bit, and the memories of chuffing around in the HAS1 & 3 under the ambers just makes me go cold ;)

No sonar and radar to haul around, though, made for a bit more capability.

Remember the HAS3 that towed the water skier on the rescue hoist, across Chesil Beach? Opened a few grockles eyes when they lifted him out of the water at the very last moment as the water met the sand. :cool:

Maybe a few other Wessex stories, like Leading Edge climbing up the outside one dark and gloomy night in the hover, and knocking on the pilot's window? Or the fun of the back seat crew tying the non flying pilot's bootlaces together, behind the cyclic, and watching when he tried to take control? Dry winching at Culdee, with Mike Lehan paying out 50 yards of cable, then reefing in the power so the poor stude (me...) was looking at the co pilot every time I swung under the Wessex :eek:

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>

[EESDL]

No scanner I'm afraid, stuck out in the desert at the moment, some bloke wearing a bedsheet and a long beard.....will try and get with the technology thing as soon as i work out how to use the microwave!!!

[jayteeto]

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> Fabulous old lady she may be, but it's still like driving a double decker bus from the top deck <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[jellycopter]

Jayteeto, you're only used to poling plastic french stuff. What do you know about flying ol' Walter???

[Arkroyal]

jayteet

As the only protagonist I know who's driven both double deckers (admittedly not from the top deck!) and the fine old Wessex, the bus loses out every time.

John E's memory is good for those figures, and I seem to remember a rotor span of 56ft and a height of 14ft 6in just like a Routemaster. The HU5 had an overload to 14000lbs with a running take off and when it went out of service wuth the RN a basic of pushing 10000lbs, hence a very limited usefulness.

The missiles were SS11 (A Tank) and AS12 (A Ship). Both wire guided, so no heroics as the aimer had to steer the sight with one hand and the missile with the other. The bunting and lobbing was done with the 2" RPs. Not strictly necessary but fun anyway.

Lu Z, it's a twin turbine S58 remember, not the S61 which became the Sea King. Got a good video of one of them doing a little more than the 30deg limit of bank too.

[John Eacott]

Ark,

Thanks for the reminder on missiles, completely forgot the 2"RP's. Story of which, was the firepower demo one day off Ark, when a steely Phantom driver hoiked off 4 pods in ripple, whilst pulling a climbing turn away from the goofers. Set for airburst, it all looked very pretty, except the one that went ballistic and chased the Phantom, going off terribly close to the intake <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

My first job in Oz was driving a Mk60 north out of Derby, in the far north west, about 300+nm. Northbound in the morning, southbound in the afternoon, I was often asked in the Boab Hotel if I was a truck driver, since my right arm was 4 shades darker than the left <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Sitting up there in splendid isolation, wondering if all the passengers were behaving downstairs <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Vfrpilotpb]

Seems like this particular breed of heli has earned a lot of respect from you folk who have been involved with her(or is she a "Bus"). .My regards. .PeterB

[Heliport]

Unless I missed it, you haven't told us the name of the pilot who impressed you.

We can't use names when slagging people off, but should be OK in this context?

[Cyclic Hotline]

[quote]Sitting up there in splendid isolation, wondering if all the passengers were behaving downstairs <hr></blockquote>

I always thought the design was inspired by the old fashioned Stagecoach. :)

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Arkroyal or anyone interested in providing a response.

In my comment about the stripped down S-61 in Sikorsky’ bid on the Army’s’ attack helicopter program I was confused. The confusion came from the designations used for license built Sikorsky helicopters. Can you (anyone) please provide your names for these helicopters built by Westland so as to eliminate confusion from this side of the pond?

S-51. .S-55. .S-58. .S-61

Incidentally, I was a techrep on the S-58 series along with the S-56 and S-55 and I still am confused by the Indian tribe names used by the US Army for these helicopters.

One small point. When I type in Westland my spell checker notes an error and provides “wetland and wasteland” as an alternative. Care to comment?

[Wunper]

Lu

S-51 Westland built 130 + under the name Dragonfly. .S-55 Westland called the Whirlwind nearly 400 built in 12 variants including the Gnome turbine. . .S-58 Westland produced 300+ Wessex in 10 variants the nostalgic subject of this thread.. .The SH-3D was produced in large numbers as the Sea king for numerous countries. The S-61 has never been produced by Westland

A point to note, none of the above aircraft have been produced as “off the shelf “ designs all have had considerable re-design and development work to make them better suited to UK military and civil operation.

Wunper . . <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Cyclic Hotline]

Oops, went for breakfast and wunper beat me to it. I'll leave it on for the links? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Westland produced a variety of Sikorsky models under licence.

<a href="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/west_dragon-r.html" target="_blank">Dragonfly and Widgeon</a> - (S-51). .<a href="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/west_whirlwind-r.html" target="_blank">Whirlwind</a> - S-55 (Piston and Turbine versions). .<a href="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/west_wessex-r.html" target="_blank">Wessex</a> - S58. .<a href="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/west_king-r.html" target="_blank">Sea-King/Commando</a> - S61A/B (SH-3). .(The <a href="http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/west_westminster-r.html" target="_blank">Westland Westminster</a> which was never production manufactured, utilized the H-37 rotor system).

Westland incorporated British engines into these designs (some, licence manufactured US engines) and generally a variety of modifications that in some cases made the aircraft quite significantly different than the machines they were derived from.

Westland came up with some very good modifications to the original aircraft, some of which were incorporated back into the Sikorsky products. Of these, the commercial Wessex 60 was a tremendous aircraft, as others have explained here. Operating side by side with the S58T's, there was really no comparison between the two!

Can't say I miss any of the British part-numbers and hardware though! :) <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Cyclic Hotline ]</p>

[John Eacott]

VFR,

"Cab", for some reason, is the nonclemature in the RN for an aircraft. I imagine, however, that a Crab would have no problems driving a bus :)

Cyclic,

The offshore oil runs, with about 6-8 pax "downstairs", was fraught with assumed trust, since we had no cabin crew. I got a severe b*llocking from Mayne-Bristow management for refusing to accept a passenger who was so drunk that he couldn't walk from the F28 night flight, to the Wessex. I know who would have been held liable if he'd got up for a leak and fallen out the door somewhere over the Timor, though :rolleyes:

Speechless 2,

Talking of showing off to Wren joyriders, was it Leading Edge who asked to be advised when the test flight passed 6000 ft, and later was advised to remove and wash the aft flotation bag?? ;)

[Lu Zuckerman]

When I read about tying the Co-Pilots shoe strings around the cyclic I should have known that the Wessex was not the Sea King or as I had indicated the S-61 which I believe is the Sikorsky model number for the SH3-D from which it was derived. In case the readership is unaware Sikorsky tried gas turbines in the Navy version of the S-58 (HSS-1). It used two GE T-58s however it was never placed in production. That was around 1955-56. I do not know when Westlands’ incorporated the RR gas turbines relative to the Sikorsky design. Agusta built the S-61 in three versions. The original design, which was used on offshore btransfers, the SH3-D and a shortened version of the S-61. This model was not well received and had limited or no production. An outfit in Washington State developed a model similar to the shortened version of the S-61 and it was called the “Shortsky.” This was accomplished by removing one or two sections of the fuselage and putting the fuselage together again. I believe this version is used in logging operations because of the increase in AUW.

[Adge Cutler]

Got a mate in the local Mountain Rescue team, and he mourns the loss of the Wessex from SAR duties, said it was lovely to warm yourself up in the exhausts while loading the casualty.

[Lu Zuckerman]

Speaking of standing in the engine exhaust to keep warm here is a story you might find amusing.

While on my training program at Sikorsky I was assigned to work in the mod hanger where we were updating US Navy HSS-1s. All of the engines (Wright R-1820s) were pickled and pull off covers had been installed on the exhaust. One of the technicians had a part time job selling pistachios from his various vending machines. He started to bring the pistachios into work selling them in small bags to the technicians. Pretty soon the shells were covering the work floor. The Forman told the pistachio man that he didn’t mind him selling the nuts but if the shells were not disposed of in a proper manner he would no longer be able to sell the nuts on company property.

He passed the word to his customers and soon there were no shells to be seen. It was a month or so before the first aircraft completed the mod program and it was towed out to the flight line. The cover was removed from the exhaust and the engine was started. Because of the heavy preservative oil in the cylinders the pilot used a lot of priming fuel. When the engine caught it spewed a lot of hot preservative oil along with hundreds of pistachio shells. The fireguard that was not positioned properly got sprayed with hot preservative oil and he was covered in pistachio shells.

The Forman had all of the helos inspected and every exhaust stack was full of pistachio shells. Needless to say the man was restricted from selling any more on company property.

[John Eacott]

Just to bore the pants off you, here are some piccies of the HAS1, HAS3 and HU5. Mk60 pics are tucked away, out of sight...

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8137-2/Ark+Wessex+I+on+bucket+course_002.JPG

Grainy shot of Ark Royal SAR flight Wessex 1 during a helicopter gymkhana, c 1974

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8140-2/Hampshire+WIII+on+high+line+tx_002.JPG

"Humphrey", HMS Hampshire's Wessex HAS3 during the same gymkhana, high line transfer

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8143-2/Resource+Wessex+V+on+gymkhana_002.JPG

RFA Resource ship's flight, same day.

All good fun (IIRC, Resource won.....)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Heliport,

I am awaiting confirmation of the Pilots name, and then I will post it, but the Heli involved is on the books of 72 Sqdn. :)

[Ed Winchester]

In which case, vfrpilotpb, he/she would probably not appreciate having his/her name posted on an internet bulletin board. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hi Ed,

That is why I am waiting for the said person to contact me, but whatever He(hadn't thought about a She, sorry girls) was magnificent in the execution of the movement of that big copter, and She/He would be welcome to attend my local bar any day at my expense! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[EESDL]

It was no fun falling from the steps whilst trying to get in with weapons, body armour and all. Still vividly remember falling back with a corroded grab handle in my hand and the ground getting bigger.. .The exhausts were fine until RR sent some dodgy stator packs and you were treated to a fireworks display inches from your face!!. .Hasn't a Grand Canyon outfit refitted one with 5 blades, reduced RPM etc 'Whisper Flight' or something similar?

[Lu Zuckerman]

I do not know if the original Wessex design had an American R-1820 or a British built recip. engine. But most importantly I do not know if the throttle rigging was the same as the H-34 or if the Westland version had a hydromechanical clutch. In any case I offer the following. This story deals with turning a brand new helicopter into a training aid in less than 15 seconds.

A brand new H-34 had just been ferried from Sikorsky in Bridgeport, Connecticut to Ft. Eustis, Virginia. When it arrived it had about 16 hours on the airframe and engine. For whatever reason it got through factory inspection with the throttle linkage mis-rigged. A new pilot was being checked out in the starting procedures and he was twisting the throttle while turning the engine over. With the mis-rigging of the throttle linkage the throttle-canceling switch was held closed allowing voltage to the starting solenoid. When the engine started to turn over and started to fire on all cylinders the throttle was more than half-open. The engine oversped to over 2800 RPM.

The forces were so great in the hydromechanical clutch the energy generated by the fly weights caused the blocker plate to fail and the engine went into a solid engagement at the speed indicated above. Within a split second the transmission not only failed it was torn away from the fuselage attach points and the blades just folded up. The rotorhead failed, as did the dampers. The tail rotor drive line failed and the tail rotor almost sheared away from its’ drive shaft. The engine was also severely damaged. Needless to say, the clutch and the cooling fan were also destroyed.

In complete disgust the CO of the airfield told his mechanics to tow the aircraft over to the training facility.

[John Eacott]

Speechless,

Ahhhh. Avpin, the no smoking lamp is definitely ON. ISTR a Wessex HAS1 out of heavy maintenance at CU workshop, first start on the hardstand. Did you know an Avpin starter can still travel the full length of a hangar floor even after being ripped out of the side the Wessex, and then penetrating a closed hangar door <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Did the early HAS3 have Avpin? The one's I drove had the compressed air start, with two (?) bottles in the nose door, just for'd of the intake. ISTR they were supposed to be good for a couple of starts, often a bit of a crewroom debate whether they'd do the deed and give you an airstart should you need one. Optimistic bunch, in full auto from jump height (150') as if you'd be going for a relight......

Lu, the Wessex never had a recip. It was a turbine model from the start, based on the S58 airframe.

[Wunper]

"Avpin will travel"

I believe they used to say

Wunper :)

[aspinwing]

Speechless Two, EESDL e-mail please !

Interested in finding out how far apart the Wessex seed has spread. Flew with ML in 815.

David

[Lu Zuckerman]

Re: Avpin

I don’t know the makeup of the Avpin starter charge but from what I understand it is very unstable. On these threads, many moons ago, there was a post by an individual that said when they transitioned in a Wessex from one point to another where the engines would have to be restarted it was his responsibility to sit in the open doorway in order to dispose of the Avpin charges in case something went wrong.

[aspinwing]

Lu

I think that you will find that we aer talking about two different parts of the system. The AVPIN starter was ignited by a cartridge - think large shotgun shell but blank; it might have been a blank 50 cal. - that started the whole thing spinning, then the AVPIN started burning.

The starter turned at about 50K as I recall and had blades about the size of one's thumb nail. The starter was known to shed its blades so it wasn't a good idea to stand on the starboard side of the engine bay while the starter was running.

[Wunper]

Lu Avpin

The nasty stuff is Isopropyl Nitrate which being a monofuel supports its own combustion once ignited so fire extinguishers etc are a waste of time, best insurance either to avoid the stuff altogether or to have a good pair of running shoes!

. .Wunper <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Bearintheair]

Ahhh, the Queen of the Skies !!!. .Talk to any ex Wessex driver and you'll see how much they were loved. I enjoyed every one of my 1500 hrs in the Wessex V as a jungly/SAR/HDS pilot.. .In how many other cabs could you encourage a jammed starter with a chock, liven up a lazy ignitor box by stamping on the cockpit floor and bring the SAS on line by getting the crewman to whack the box on the front wall of the cabin which was painted red and labelled 'DANGER DO NOT TOUCH' !. .Whatever you wanted the Wessex would do it. . .My claim to fame is that my mark 5 was the last frontline Wessex in RN service and it finished its service in the same ship that carried it when it was fresh from the factory and the ship was on its first deployment. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Bearintheair]

Further to the above and going back to the original post about agility, when I was loadlifting at sea, if the ships were tied together for a RAS at the same time that we were vertreping we could shift a load every 30 secs and keep it up for an hour. The only trouble was that not even Ark Royal could shift the loads as fast as we could deliver them !!!

[whoateallthepies]

The RAF still fly the Wessex of course, continuing their policy of using cutting edge technology. They are being retired from the UK and there will be a final flypast at Odiham in March. There will be a reunion of ex- Wessex drivers (like myself) and maybe a couple of light ales being drunk later.. .I understand that they will still be flying them in Cyprus for a bit longer.

[Lu Zuckerman]

Way back when, President Eisenhower gave an S-58 to the Russian government to be used as an executive transport. Many people in the military establishment warned against it as it would give the Russians state of the art design technology that could eventually be used against the United States military. I don’t know if they ever used it for the intended purpose but if you look at the Russian helicopters I doubt if you will find anything that is obviously of American design influence or even remotely resembles the Sikorsky design.

[baranfin]

I don't know anything about mechanical aspects of the 2 aircraft but the Mi-4 looks like a S-58 with clamshell doors if you ask me. . .Who was first I wonder?

[Gainesy]

...er, well, Sikorsky was Russian.

[baranfin]

Ha ha, good point.

[Nick Lappos]

Gasp! I have to agree with Lu on the low probability of Russians taking American technology. Don't let physical similarity of the Mi-4 and the S-58 lead you astray. I have studied the latest generation of Russian machines, and I know the chief designers of Mil and Kamov fairly well. IMHO, they seem to have done quite nicely on their own, thank you very much! :)

[Arkroyal]

Lu,

One of your questions remains unanswered. The Wessex never had a radial engine, If I remember correctly an S58 was delivered to Yeovil, whereupon Wastelands immediately fitted the Napier Gazelle, used in the HAS 1 and 3.

For the HC 2 (RAF) and HU5 (RN) they fitted a pair of Bristol Siddely(?) later RR Gnomes which by then had proved a good engine in the Whirlwind (S55)

The Gnome was a license built T58 (also used in the Lotus Indy turbine car 56?)

To complete the series, the HCC4 applies to the Queen's flight pair.

Oh, and BearintheAir, yes I could (unless of course you refer to the ship!)

Tough old bird too. Downbirded in the Falklands, I had to leave my Wessex in an exposed position for two days whilst a storm raged. turned through 180deg by the wind, and received no damage at all.

As for the old 'boot laces tied behind the cyclic' gag, there was another good wheeze if you were a bored copilot. Whilst the pilot carressed the cyclic lightly betwixt thumb and forefinger, you could cup both hands over the top of your stick, and whilst holding it in position, motor the pitch trim fully forward. Sit back, release stick. It flies forward out of the pilot's hand and produces a couple of seconds of negative G and much swearing fromm the now wide awake right-seater!

I'd told some bloke about this , and was most dis-chuffed when he demonstrated his humour on me. We were at about 25ft at the time.

[Lu Zuckerman]

Here is another story from the archives. The US Navy version of the S-58 had an Automatic Stabilization System that included among other capabilities Barometric hold and Hydrodynamic hold, which was used during SONAR operations. The Barometric hold was installed in the upper right corner of the battery compartment. The unit was tied into a static port. The Navy constantly complained that rain water would collect in the lines and render the unit incapable of performing its’ function. Sikorsky in their wise ways disconnected the unit from the static port and the sensor line was connected inside of the helicopter. One day an HSS-1 was moving at about 30-40 knots and was preparing to stop and lower the SONAR ball. The Co pilot opened his sliding window, which made a dramatic change in the atmospheric pressure inside of the helicopter, and the sensor commanded the control system to lower the helicopter. The wheels were in the water before the pilot could disengage the Bar Alt sensor and raise the collective. Sikorsky eventually found a new location for the static port but before they did the Navy was told not to use the Bar Alt.

As an added note, the ASE was a very slightly modified autopilot used in the USAF F-86.

When the SONAR ball was lowered and the helicopter was in a hover an individual could move the sonar ball in any direction and the helicopter would follow. See the first photo on page two of this thread. If this were a HSS-1 and someone moved the ball in relation to the helicopter the helicopter would move in that direction. I do not know if the Wessex had this same capability.

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Speechless Two

The system you described was the same as that used in the HSS-1 however the equipment manufacturer might have been different. If memory serves me correctly the SONAR system used in the HSS-1 was made by Texas Instruments. I was not inferring that the SONAR operator wiggled the line to the ball. I meant that if the ball were dropped a person on the ground could move the helicopter by moving the line in relation to the drift forks. This could also be done on the Wessex because of the systems design. I believe they had a similar ground control capability on the Sky Crane for positioning over a load.

I don’t know if you are familiar with the rigging of the helicopter but on the HSS-1 the ASE was placed on a fixture that reflected the hover position of the helicopter. 3-degrees tail down and (I hope this is right as it has been many years since I did this) 7-degrees left wheel down. In this position and with the helicopter level the error signal from the ASE was nulled out so that in a hover there would be no error signal. The SONAR system would reflect the hover position in the hover due to the displacement of the drift forks and the SONAR operator would null that signal out so the helicopter could remain stationary. Then, if the drift forks were displaced due to water movement below the helicopter, the drift forks would sense this movement and send an error signal to the ASE. The ASE would then generate a signal to the Aux.servo and move the helicopter with the water flow below it keeping the SONAR ball under the helicopter. All of this from the mind of an aging old fart (71 years old). The last time I saw one of these helicopters was in 1956.

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]</p>

[Arkroyal]

Ahhh, Pingers, don't you love 'em!

The Wessex 5 also had Autopilot Mk 19, which could barely fly S & L. Anyone know what Mks 1 to 18 were like!!!!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Vfrpilotpb]

To all who have made an input to this thread, Thank You, it seems that you all have some very fond memorys of this big bird, it also seems that it was a pretty safe and stable sort of thing! :) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Vfrpilotpb]

Final word,. .I heard from the Aunt of the actual pilot who so amazed me with his skill and obvious ability in his handling of the Wsx, he has indeed received my letter, and has said that he is thrilled that some one should track him down and then write to thank him for the impromtu display, isn't it nice to hear that! :) . .Thank you all.. .Peter B <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[[email protected]]

Ark, another top wheeze when putting a LHS pilot into a UP during IF training was to have the door open and put your finger over the end of the pitot. When you gave him control he would keep pushing the nose down to try and gain speed until you removed your finger and gave him an instant 100 kts IAS and a completely different UP to recover from.. .Lu, if you want to see an S58 twin pack flying the go to New York, they were still doing airport transfers and sightseeing trips in one a few years ago.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: [email protected]

There are many S-58 Ts flying in the USA in fact there is a company in California that is licensed by Sikorsky to convert S-58s and H-34s to the S-58 T configuration and to act as a support center for that model. There is however one S-58 T that I hope is not flying and I hope it never got certified and therein lies a tale. When I was working in Los Angeles I heard that there was a company that was converting an H-34 to the S-58 T configuration. I went to see them and offered my services as I had been a tech rep on the S-58, H-34 and HSS-1. I discovered that the aircraft was purchased from the Israeli military and just about every moving part on it had been infested with sand to include the rotorhead and the swashplate as well as every lubricated surface in the airframe. I disconnected the upper swashplate from the pitch links and the pitch links from the pitch horns. I rotated the four blade cuffs and each one was severely effected by sand ingestion and as a result were extremely rough in their movement. We tried to purge the grease on one cuff but it didn’t do any good as the bearings were already effected. I rotated the upper portion of the swashplate and found the same problem and as before the purging had no effect. I told them it would be best to send the entire dynamic system and the power train back to Sikorsky for overhaul and they indicated that they did not want to incur the expense. I also discovered that they were trying to convert the airframe directly from an H-34 to an S-58 T. The certification procedure dictated that the airframe had to be certificated as an S-58 and after that was granted it could be converted to an S-58 T. They had already modified the airframe to accept the combining gearbox and were ready to install that and the engines within a week or so.

I told them that if they didn’t do it correctly I would not be involved in the program. While I was in the hanger I spoke to several company pilots who told me another story about how this company operates. They had recovered two S-55 wrecks and attached the good parts together to make one aircraft. They did not use factory jigs to maintain alignment and as a result the helicopter never flew right. After the first test flight they shipped the S-55 to Central America without getting US certification and they planned to do the same with the S-58 T.

I told this story on Just Helicopters and someone posted that the S-58 was rotting next to a company hanger in Alaska

[Bertie Thruster]

Why did the RAF wessex have a hooter?

[EESDL]

To scare the **** out of the pax!!. .They would get their own back by messing with the tail rotor cables:-(

[ShyTorque]

The hooter was certainly not required for overtaking..... :)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Not quite the last word,. .. .I have today received from the very pilot who so enthralled me, a very nice two pager, explaining why he was off the beaten track, and why he decided to put on the impromptu display, he went to great lengths to explain how he flew the machine on that day and that he handed my letter to his crew who all felt very happy to see that someone somewhere was drooling over the antics of their Wsx, the letter finished by stating that after an eight formation flypast in London, then various other RAF bases these birds will finish up at good old Shawbury on their very last flight later in March o2, the Heli I saw on that spectacular day was 40 years old, and the only Wsx left flying after March, will be in Cyprus and these have been given a 1 year extention.. . I can say without doubt, this is one of the nicest letters I have ever received from a young man, who it seems is a very proud member of the Royal Air Force! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Heliport]

Vfr. .You have a good knack for starting interesting threads.. .Thanks. .. .Heliport. .Moderator

[Vfrpilotpb]

Heliport,. .. .That is very kind, of you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> but most of the flyers who answer these posts are the skilled ones, who folk like me do listen to, and look up to as well!. .My Regards. .Peter B. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 08:50: Message edited by: Vfrpilotpb ]</small>

[A109]

I have a couple of thousand hours on Wessex V's and used to do a display in a WxV for the Royal Navy Schools Presentation Team years ago so can vouch for their manoeuverability! I now have about four and a half thousand hours on A109s and love the two machines equally.

['AEROWASP' HELICOPTERS]

The old Wally Wessex.....the only aircraft ever made that could sustain a bird strike FROM THE REAR!. .Speechless Two.....Mike Lehan has finally retired and has left the Naval Aviation Museum and moved to Melbourne.. .. .Take care and enjoy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Lu Zuckerman]

On a sad note there was one time that the S-58 was not so agile. During the establishment of the height velocity curve the test pilot put the helicopter in a hover about 20 feet above ground and dropped the collective and before he could recover the helicopter hit the ground hard and stove in the landing gear. The helicopter rolled over and I believe when the blades hit the ground a stub end of one of the blades entered the cockpit killing the pilot.

[Heliport]

RAF Press Release - Last Wessex in Squadron service retires

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/images/wesret1_t.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/images/wesret5_t.jpg
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/images/wesret8_t.jpg


Nearly 40 years after entering RAF service the last of the Westland Wessex, the longest serving rotary winged aircraft in RAF history, have been retired from 84 Squadron. One of the airframes retiring was XR588, one of the prototypes of the Wessex HC Mk2, a testament to the types durability and ruggedness.
A total of 60 Wessex helicopters in several versions were ordered by the RAF, and in a service life spanning the evacuation of Aden, through operations in Cyprus, Hong Kong and Northern Ireland, to the Falklands War through to the present day, the aircraft was to be flown in a number of roles the original designers could hardly have thought possible.

Originally intended as a troop carrier, the Wessex was first ordered by the Royal Navy and Royal Marines to equip their helicopter landing ships and airborne assault Squadrons. The Wessex provided a far greater lifting capability than the earlier Whirlwind, as well as greater range and speed, and it was with these characteristics in mind that the Royal Air Force ordered the Wessex to fill the support helicopter and air sea rescue roles, replacing the Whirlwind in both of these capacities. The new type proved a great success, giving field commanders greater flexibility of operation given its improved ability to deliver larger loads to front line areas and to provide reliable support. Improved versions were ordered with greater engine power and improved rotors, but the basic Wessex airframe changed very little over the years. The wide wheelbase made the aircraft very stable on rough or sloping terrain and proved very rugged, which when combined with the unusual low nose-mounted engine position, gave the Wessex a very low centre of gravity for a helicopter.

Aside from its intended roles as a support and air sea rescue aircraft, the Wessex in RAF service found itself used for border and shipping patrol in such areas as Hong Kong, where it also was used as an aerial policing platform. Three specially equipped versions were also ordered to provide VIP transport capability to the Queen's Flight, and throughout its service career the Wessex was also used in the aircrew training role at RAF Shawbury. During the Falklands war, the Wessex came into its own as the major helicopter type available to transport troops and supplies over the inhospitable winter terrain. One Royal Navy Wessex, now in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton, was partly responsible for the destruction of the submarine Santa Fe off South Georgia, a target it attacked with its door mounted GPMG, surely a unique engagement in helicopter operations.
In Cyprus, now the home of the last operational RAF Wessex Squadron, 84, the aircraft has been used its two original roles of troop transport and Search and Rescue, but has also provided an important service to the Cyprus communities as an aerial firefighter. In 2002 serious brush fires in the hills surrounding several small villages threatened the lives and homes of the villagers, but the fires were brought under control by 84 Squadron Wessex's operating alongside civilian firefighters from hastily prepared forward operating locations. Underslung 'fire buckets' were used to douse the fires with both water and fire-retarding chemicals. Even in the twilight of its career, the venerable helicopter was still finding new roles.

The Officer Commanding the last Wessex Squadron, Squadron Leader Nicky Smith, was unstinting in her praise of the type. "People from other units have sometimes called it a museum piece!" she said, "and its true, it is not the most modern of aircraft, but I have developed a bit of a soft spot for it, and so have mixed feelings about the retirement." She continued, "I first flew the Wessex in training at RAF Shawbury, and went on to do a tour on a Sea King Squadron and a ground tour before I took over 84 as Commanding Officer. Of course, the Wessex has nothing like the lift capacity of the Sea King, nor any of its modern systems, but it is a tough airframe, you can really throw it about, particularly in the trooper role. In dusty conditions, like we often encounter in Cyprus, you can land the aircraft quickly and firmly without having to come to the hover as you do with other types, which reduces the loss of visibility due to the dust being blown up, and also minimises exposing the engines to damage from particle ingestion."

In the SAR role, the winch is positioned just behind the aircraft commander who is afforded an excellent view from the high cockpit, all of which makes it very easy to hover and manoeuvre accurately over small boats, so it is only fair to say the aircraft has some excellent features which explains its long service life. However, it is a simple aircraft, a function of the period that produced it, and one of the side effects of that is that the Wessex is not maintenance friendly in design. Some parts and systems on the aircraft are very difficult to get at, and it is a combination of the cost and time of maintenance and age of spares that have finally outlived the usefullness of the type."

"Although it is sad to see the Wessex go, this is also an exciting time for 84 Squadron as we will be introducing the latest version of the Bell 412 Griffin, the HAR2, specially equipped for the Search and Rescue role."

Replacing the 84 Squadron Wessex in the Search and Rescue role in Cyprus for an interim period are the Sea Kings of 203 Squadron, which is also the Sea King OCU. Squadron Leader Bob King, the OC of detachment, explained. "203 will be detached from our usual base of St Mawgan in Cornwall until late April, when the Griffin HAR2 introduction into service is complete." he said. As they took over the SAR stand-by responsibility from 84 Squadron, one of the 203 Squadron pilots had particular reason to celebrate. Squadron Leader Dane Crosby logged his 10,000th RAF flying hour during a training sortie from RAF Akrotiri. Dane has flown a wide variety of types in the service, from the Jet Provost to the Hercules, and said; "What I particularly enjoy about helicopters is it is hands on flying, no autopilots or computers, and flying an aircraft like this is still great fun! 10,000 hours is a lot of flying, but it also represents many more thousand hours of engineering and maintenance, not to mention the thousands of hours put in by the other aircrew members. 203 and Search and Rescue in particular is a team effort, so this is as much and achievement for the Squadron as anything."


Comments, stories from anyone with personal experience of the Wessex would be interesting.

[spekesoftly]

Can't help with any 'Wessex' stories, but I do remember 84 Sqn 'B' Flight, based at Nicosia, when they flew Whirlwinds in support of the UN. Time marches on!!

[lanciaspezzata]

Time does indeed march on.

I remember 84 squadron in Khormaksar, Aden, in 1967 but they were flying the Beverley then. The venerable Wessex was the workhorse of 78 squadron in that last year of, among other things, taxi-cabbing Mad Mitch and his "Arabian Knights" around the peninsula.

That was one tough aircraft which rarely, if ever, let you down.

Tommy Hooper was boss-cocky then and a better man you'd be hard-pushed to find. His jockeys were, almost without exception, the best guys in the RAF for the job. A whole lot of people owe a whole lot to these men. They were good!

Sad to see the end of such a memorable machine.

[Nigel Osborn]

I had the pleasure of being on the tail end of the IFTU for the Wessex Mk5 in Culdrose in 1964 or so. That squadron became 848 and went to the Far East on Albion in 1965 to replace Bulwark which had 845 Squadron on board with the Wessex Mk1. I still think it is best of the 7 twins I've flown, especially when you think how long ago it was built. I did 1035 hours in it without too many dramas, even when instructing in 707 Squadron!
Very sad to think it is finally passing away.:mad:

[Thomas coupling]

Hey, Heliport, how come this has got a blue peter five star rating with only 2 responses so far????

Anyone can give a rating, and you don't need to post a response to do so.
Heliport

[[email protected]]

Once or twice I have strapped myself into a Wessex - 2 years in Northern Ireland (72 Sqn), 3 years in Cyprus (84 Sqn), a year instructing at Sartu with a visit to 28 Sqn in Hong Kong, and another year instructing at Shawbury on it. Operationally you were almost always short of power and, when in hot and high conditions, ran out of tail rotor authority but the old girl always recovered and could be made to do some wacky things. Even if it did all go Pete Tong, that fabulous undercarriage would save you - even if you hit hard enough to trigger the 4G crash switches that shut the HP cocks!!!
There are so many apochryphal stories of Walter Wessex that the server would overload and I am sure that many PPruners have learned their trade in it.
It was a good SH heli and a brilliant winching platform for SAR, with a bit more power and top end it would have been excellent instead of just blo*dy good. It is the only helicopter built by Wastelands that hasn't been a crock of sh*t (even the Merlin is cracking already).
The Lynx Mk7 was the skidded GTI version as far as pilots helicopters go but the good old Wessex was truly Queen of the Skies>

[Lu Zuckerman]

With the great success the Brits had with the Wessex I can not understand why the US Navy never went with the HSS-1T which was a US Navy HSS (S-58) that was powered by two T-58s.

I believe this helicopter was flying prior to the Wessex.

:cool:

[Bertie Thruster]

The Wessex has no manual throttle to use if the automatic engine control system fails. Any other twins out there like that?

[John Eacott]

LZ asked if the S58T preceded the Wessex: the S58T prototype first flew on 26th August 1970.

The first Wessex was originally an imported S58 (piston powered) which was converted to an 1100shp Napier Gazelle NGa.11 gas turbine, first flown 17th May 1957. The Wessex HAS1 first flew 20th June 1958, and the first twin Wessex was the RAF's HC2, flown on 5th October 1962, with two Gnome engines.

As with most other Wessex drivers, I had some interesting times, in both single and twin engine versions. Claim to fame was having "truckie's suntan". Right arm would be four shades deeper tan than the left, flying with the door/window open all the time :cool:

[SASless]

Hey Eacott...how many white shirts did you own that had a pink left sleeve from the rotor brake leaking hydraulic fluid all down your left side?

.....and the pulled muscles from mashing a spongy brake after the tail wheel lock pin had snapped.....and always the weak brake was on the side the tail was swinging towards and never the other way around!

[John Eacott]

White shirts? :yuk: We weren't allowed white shirts, the black hand gang got upset that we may be "elitist", so company uniform was khaki. Good move, a) didn't show the Pilbara red dust much, and b) looked like the WA Police uniform, with associated benefits :D

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: John Eacott

LZ asked if the S58T preceded the Wessex: the S58T prototype first flew on 26th August 1970.

The helicopter I was referencing was a converted USN HSS-1 and was a one-off. I do not know if the modification (switching the Avco Lycoming 1820 for two T-58s) was Funded by Sikorsky or by the US Navy. It was flying in the 1955-56 time frame

:cool:

[SASless]

The S-58T is my all time favorite helicopter of the slew I have flown.....absolutely loved the old girls .....just wish Sikorsky could have looked forward enough and reallly devoted some research and capital into modernizing the thing. Good blades, modern engines....a drip pan under the rotor brake actuator....elevator to the cockpit....Sperry three-or four axis autopilot.....what a dream it would have been instead of clattering around in a Brand X whop-whop....martini shaking....sheet metal rattling heap of fecal matter.

[Up & Away]

I too had the pleasure of flying wessex V (and later wessex III).

Will always remember night flying with 'sparks' commimng out of the exhausts clearly 'upsetting'.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

LZ wrote:
The helicopter I was referencing was a converted USN HSS-1 and was a one-off. I do not know if the modification (switching the Avco Lycoming 1820 for two T-58s) was Funded by Sikorsky or by the US Navy. It was flying in the 1955-56 time frame.

Lu is quite right. In 1956, Westland purchased the rights to build the S-58/HSS-1. Almost immediately, they began a redesign of the aircraft to accept the Napier Gazelle turbine engine. First flight was May 1957. Sikorsky certainly must have known about the mod.

(Interestingly, in France Sud-Aviation also assembled-then-license-built S-58's for their armed forces. In 1962, they had their first flight of an S-58 equipped with two Turbomeca Bastan IV engines.)

Coincidentally in 1956 (as Lu mentioned) one HSS was re-engined to accept two G.E. T-58's. First flight was 30Jan 1957 and it was designated HSS-1F. But further development of that particular model was not undertaken. Why?

Well, sometime in 1957, the U.S. Navy issued a weapons requirement to combine the "hunter" and "killer" anti-submarine roles. Contract order was placed in December of that year. Drawing on their experience with the HSS-1, Sikorsky enlargened the cabin and rotor, installed the twin T-58's, and called the new model "HSS-2."

Who funded what is probably murky. Sikorsky was probably flush with all kinds of R&D money at the time.

Development of the S-58 languished (at least in the U.S.) for awhile, until 1970 when it became available with the Pratt and Whitney PT-6 twin-pac. Sikorsky must have been as surprised as anyone at the continued popularity and use of the aircraft.

All I can say about the S-58T is...flew it, loved it. Like SASless, it's probably my favourite aircraft of all time.

[DeltaFree]

I guess it has to be said the Wessex is/was a bit special, OK a bit underpowered but an excellent tool. You certainly had to learn how to get the best out of it. Lets face it thats what gives things character. A perfect helo would be no fun, great for doing a job but no fun. The Wessex was definitely fun. Like flying a house looking out the bathroom window, etc.
I could go on all day with my and mate's stories but all I can say it sad to see it finally go!:(

[EESDL]

Took a Lynx mate up for a flight in Walter. Not only was he amazed how versatile/agile it was but the look on his face as you drive the tailwheel into the muck was priceless!!

Queen of the Sky

[[email protected]]

EESDL - but then I took a Wessex mate up in a Lynx and the look on his face as I rolled under and pulled through at 2000' was almost as good as the squeal on the intercom!

[Lu Zuckerman]

A brand new H-34 was delivered to Fort Eustis, Virginia with only 16 hours on the clock. The first flight was to be commanded by a brand new Captain who recently transitioned from fixed wing to rotary. An instructor pilot accompanied him. For whatever reason he was twisting the throttle to help prime the engine. The helicopter was protected from starting by what is known as a throttle canceller. This unit was made up of several levers and push-pull rods as well as a micro switch. If the micro switch was open the starter could not be engaged. On this helicopter the throttle canceller was misrigged at the factory and when the pilot was twisting the throttle and pressing the starter switch the engine caught and with the throttle wide open everything went to hell in an instant.

The helicopter was equipped with a hydromechanical clutch that provided a fluid coupling to bring the rotor up to speed. The forces on the internal mechanism of the clutch failed and the rotor went into direct drive from the engine. So many of the dynamic elements were structurally damaged as well as the transmission support, the tail rotor drive as well as the intermediate and tail rotor gear boxes. The rotor blades were severely twisted and the fuselage suffered damage. The engine was shot and the landing gear was deformed.

With only 16 hours on the clock the helicopter was a write-off and it was turned over to the tech school as a training aid.


:eek:

[EESDL]

Crab
Typical !! Larry the Lynx pilot, fannying about up at 2000ft....do you need oxygen up there?
:-)

[whoateallthepies]

Those Lynx/Gazelle/Scout chaps were useful at 2000' illuminating our landing sites with their nightsun on wet nights in N.I.
Set yourself up on a DECCA approach - 500' call for the light and watch a field being lit up 1K away!

GPS would have been nice in those days.

[[email protected]]

Decca - now that brings back memories, I know someone who thought it would be a good idea to offset his decca approach one lane to the left to compensate for the crosswind!!!!!
As for nightsun I did the self drive variety where the crewman was the only one on goggles and had to try and position the light (switched off) pointing at the desired field during your pre recced IP to target run. When he was sure he had the field identified you called "illuminate, illuminate" and the beam was supposed to appear right on target so you could fly your approach into the field. A great idea but I was trying to get into a field 500m E of Middletown with a stonking easterly wind blowing - as we whistled downwind towards the border, the crewman was obviously having difficulty identifying the field but eventually he thought he'd got it so I called for the light. I was expecting to see the beam lancing into the 2 o'clock but it actually appeared in the 4 to half four!! Not fancying a bolloc*ing from the boss for a border incursion I employed the well known split-a*sed turn into wind to discover it was snowing and the crewman had completely lost the field. We went home and said the wx was too bad - I think the troops we were supposed to insert were rather pleased!

[Big Green Arrow]

AHHHHH the Wessex..a lovely old bird. It taught me how to get the best out of a heavy /underpowered machine..which is paying dividends now flying the UH-1D. It was quite forgiving, but didn't like being downwind, as I found out with 'Windy' in Castlederg..and yep the inerta switches do go off at 4G...bounced right back up into the air ..still flyable! Got chinooked back to V813 and then 'queenmaried' to Benson...still have the piccies and the sore back to prove it. EESDL even showed me some spiral death-dives in one. Hey EESDL..are you doing that to your studes in your Tincano?

[MBJ]

Lovely aircraft to fly...but provided some amusing moments with ground resonance on board ship - broken legs off the float canisters etc. I believe the "computers" got a bit tetchy towards the end as well.

Still, when Sikorsky built the Blackhawk they took the best bit - the tail wheel, which must have saved a lot of enthusiastic young pilots from gouging holes in the ground with their airframes. (Puma, Lynx, NH90, EH101 etc etc)

[EESDL]

Big Green Arrow
The spiral dives I see now are ones where I'm trying to fly S&L - although the Nav kit is not much better!!!
Auf Weidersein

[Nigel Osborn]

I'm not aware of anyone doing deliberate loops in a Wessex Mk1 at flying displays, just some very fancy wing overs. However I do know someone did a loop by mistake in a Wessex Mk5 during its IFTU off the coast near Torquay. The engineers were asked to carry out some very discrete checks but no harm apparently occured.:D

[EESDL]

It's been done more recently than the 60s, like early nineties but you're not getting any more info out of me! Not untill the 30 year rule has lapsed.
The story goes that it started off with a few extravagant wing-overs then the Crewman and Co were dropped off in a field then the story runs cold.

[CareBear]

Don't know about looping it but it can certainly be barrel rolled. The powers that be dont like it however and it has not been done "legally" as far as I am aware.

You would have to be very careful to maintain speed and G over the top or the fully articulated head would try very hard to clap hands when upside down !!!

[seafuryfan]

I always felt that if it all went pear shaped that I would be looked after in the cabin - built like a brick ****house.

There's a lot of affection for the old girl from those that flew in her in NI.

[spinningwings]

Ha! anybody hear the one about the Air force that decided to replace their SAR Wessexs' with Bell 412 ........hilarous .....:{ :confused:

[Secret Squire]

I had the pleasure of a trip across most of Cyprus (ESBA ==> WSBA) in one last July whilst playing pongos, brilliant fun all that low level stuff, very memorable! Only wish I could afford one myself! :rolleyes:

Secret

[lowlevelhell]

Just wanting to find out from ex Wessex pilots what they think of them. What problems they had and what type of work that they were doing with them??

[spinwing]

.... This has been done before ....

:zzz:

and if you are involved with those Ex-Mil Wessex in NZ be careful???

[rotorboater]

If you want to buy one try this link, only at 55K at the moment but I can't see you flying it on a ppl!

http://www.henrybutcher.com/en/equipmentdetails.asp?sOfferID=839261

[[email protected]]

Lowlevelhell - they were good workhorses but underpowered - the engines were good but the weak link was the coupling gearbox and the angled driveshaft up to the MRGB - the max Tq was limited by those components not the engines. The RR gnomes were good engines but the Military ones don't have a manual throttle option if the electric fuel computer freezes or runs away so any computer malfunction results in a frozen power or an engine shutdown.
It is not very good at altitude and soon runs out of TR authority at moderate DA.
It's still the queen of the skies and that undercarriage gives a comfy landing even when you cock it up.
If the ones you are flying are ex 72 Sqn (NI) you can bet they have seen a hard life.

[nutcracker43]

Flew both the Wessex and S58T...Wessex the more powerful of the two...both lovely to fly but the Wessex, to my mind, is still the queen.

NC43

[ShyTorque]

The Queen? A bit like Danny La Rue, then?

(In my day they were known as "Walter" the Wessex).

Larry the Lynx
Percy the Puma
Gary Gazelle
but I'll refrain from saying what we called the Chinook.

[nutcracker43]

Shy Torque

Clearly you are a child of the 90s. I stopped flying the Wessex in '84 and never heard it referred to as Walter.

Lovely aeroplane, though!

NC43

[ShyTorque]

Shy Torque
Clearly you are a child of the 90s. I stopped flying the Wessex in '84 and never heard it referred to as Walter.
Lovely aeroplane, though!
NC43

Oh Thank you, thankyou! :D

I wish, I wish....I last flew it in 1978!

But the kiddies in NI were using those names in the early 90s :ok:

[lowlevelhell]

Interesting

The ones we have out here are ex Cyprus has anyone got any history on them? We have the full deck of cards.

[spinwing]

Lowlevel ...

You need to get in contact with Brian Taylor ... :bored:

[SASless]

Called the Chinook? Dear boy your envy shows through. There are helicopters and slingloads, better said, there are Chinooks and slingloads.

The Wessex was a very nice slingload as was the S58T.

[Helipolarbear]

SASLESS.....I coudn't of said it better!!! LOL:}

[[email protected]]

Low levelhell - the ones in Cyprus in the 80s were mainly Navy Mk5's rejigged to RAF Mk 2 Spec and had a horrid traffic light rad alt system and a drop tank on the port side for another 2-300 lbs of fuel. If you have got the ones that were taken out of Cyprus a couple of years ago, they will probably be RAF Mk2s through and through and possibly ex NI. There was so much robbing and plundering of remaining airframes in the last few years to get the required spares that you may have got a complete mishmash of airframes, engines and spares.
Have you got the military tail numbers? I know that makes me sound like a spotter but a journey through the log book might shed some history on them

[Nigel Osborn]

Unlike the RAF who only had the twin engined Mk2, the RN had the single engined Mk1 for commando/troop carrying as well as anti sub, then later the Mk3 for AS only. The Mk5 did its IFTU at Culdrose in 1963/4 & went to sea in Albion with 848 Squadron, which was the first overseas operational squadron, to Malaysia via Aden & Mombasa.
I had the pleasure of being involved at the tail end of the IFTU period which was great fun & a huge learning curve. The Mk5 behaved very well considering it was a new machine & all the pilots were off singles. I last flew one in 1967 & never heard any nick names for them.

[ShyTorque]

Called the Chinook? Dear boy your envy shows through. There are helicopters and slingloads, better said, there are Chinooks and slingloads.
The Wessex was a very nice slingload as was the S58T.

That's fine if you just want to fly slingloads!
No envy at all, I did fly it a little but lost I too many friends who were killed flying them. I had friends in two unexplained crashes; including one that nosed in vertically from 1000 feet.

Just give me my favourite aircraft, the "Super Wessex", namely a Blackhawk any day (or night). The best helicopter the RAF never had. ;)

[SASless]

Shy,

A UK operator of the Wessex lost two in Nigeria in similar circumstances....catastrophic failures and quick fall to the swamp. All helicopters are subject to those kinds of tragic events.

[ShyTorque]

Shy,
All helicopters are subject to those kinds of tragic events.

Of course, but it's the unexplained nature of the accidents that concerned me most. Now I'm in a position where I'll never have to fly them so it's no longer an issue.

[[email protected]]

Shy - that reminds why 2 of the names they were called were 'The Boeing Vertol 52 seat body bag' and 'The twin rotor death machine'.
I presume one of the crashes you refer to was the airtest in the Falklands - memorial still there and recently refurbished.

[Vfrpilotpb]

I am amazed that so many of you Rotorheaders have had what seems to be a life time of flying experience with the Wsx, from my original post I have re-read all the input and am amazed at how so many of you are able to give so much info on this pathfinder type of helicopter, it is good to read.

many thanks:ok:


PeterR-B
Vfr

[ShyTorque]

Shy - that reminds why 2 of the names they were called were 'The Boeing Vertol 52 seat body bag' and 'The twin rotor death machine'.
I presume one of the crashes you refer to was the airtest in the Falklands - memorial still there and recently refurbished.

Crab, that's correct, Steve Newman and crew. Glad to hear they are still remembering.

[MBJ]

In my comment about the stripped down S-61 in Sikorsky’ bid on the Army’s’ attack helicopter program I was confused. The confusion came from the designations used for license built Sikorsky helicopters. Can you (anyone) please provide your names for these helicopters built by Westland so as to eliminate confusion from this side of the pond?

S-51. .S-55. .S-58. .S-61

One small point. When I type in Westland my spell checker notes an error and provides “wetland and wasteland” as an alternative. Care to comment?[/QUOTE]

Lu, love the quote about Westland. They had a subsidiary that made up-and-over aluminium garage doors and truly should have stuck to that!

S-51 = Dragonfly
S-55 = Whirlwind Mks 3-10?
S58 = Wessex Mks 1-5
S61 = Sea King

The only really useful thing Westland did was put a turbine into the S-55 (Whirlwind 9 and 10) and twin turbines into the Wessex 5. The installation of a single turbine in the Wessex was obviously just a character-building programme for anti-submarine pilots. The survivors became strong silent embittered men!

[soggyboxers]

MBJ,
You've also forgotten the other S55 derivative, the Whirlwind 7. A lovely machine on which to learn to fly
I also flew the S58T and the Wessex, but despite the power of the Wessex, found the S58T nicer to fly because the bifilars made it smoother and it was nice having manual throttle control if required. I also remember the games that ensued when the original nose doors were changed (I think it was as a result of icing on the original Exercise Arctic Express in Northern Norway). Being a Westland product you couldn't just take one off one aircraft and fit it to another; they all had to be individually fitted. I had a friend who worked as a draughtsman for Westland and always remember him only half-jokingly telling me that at Westland everything was manufactured to tolerances of one thousandth of an inch - then filed down so it fitted ;) I was inclined to believe him when my Westland up-and-over 'Garador' collapsed when I was opening my garage and dented the bonnet of my almost-new Renault 4!
Towards the end of its days in Nigeria the Wessex suffered from shortages of spare parts with long lead times needed for anything ordered. Soon after the loss of a tail rotor (which luckily was brilliantly handled by Richard Sutton and resulted in only very minor injuries) we had some aircraft in Warri flying with no starboard cockpit window because the runners were worn and Bristow were worried about the possibility of a window coming off in flight and damaging the tail rotor. This led to one getting pretty wet when flying during the rainy season and many of our funny blue copy maps getting all soggy and falling apart if not securely sealed inside a plastic cover. I don'tv really remember us having any particular nickname for the Wessex when it was new, but like many others I referred to it latterly as the Queen of the Skies. Haven't flown one now for 28 years, but it would be nice to see how it feels again, with that lovely polished wooden handle on the collective.

[MBJ]

Soggyboxers,
No, I remember the Whirly7 quite well. In my day we did 40 odd hours during training, 10 or 15 of which was IF. Remember how the groundcrew would hit the cartridge starter with a chock some mornings to get it to work? Aaaah, Westlands!:)

[Snarlie]

The real Queen of the Skies will always be the Wessex 3. The autopilot and flight control system were the equal of anything flying today in terms of accuracy and reliability, even in those days of selsyns and resistors. I spent 1000 hours at 200 feet and below much of it at night relying on the autopilot without a hitch. Only the engine let us down once and that was near Gibraltar, so the water was warm.
As for the Whirly 7 referred to by MBJ, I remember solo wet winching in Mounts Bay as a Midshipman with all of 75 hours on helis where the winchman would go down on the wire wearing a long lead by which to con the pilot to the survivor. Such faith in a sprog pilot would surely merit an award these days. Names like Kentspear, Mooney, Quinlan amongst many others served course after course of embryo pilots.

[Nigel Osborn]

In 1962 the RN used the Hiller 12 for basic 50 hours training in 705 Squadron. This was followed by about 40 hours in the Whirlwind Mk 3 & Mk7 to get your wings. This was followed by operational training in 747 on the Mk7 for the jungly pilots & in 706 on the Wessex Mk1 for the pingers.
The Mk3 Whirlwind had a Wright Cyclone radial engine with an electric starter & in autos you had to shut the engine down for an EOL; very exciting for a new student!! I don't recall if it ever became an operational machine as in 1956 I flew in a genuine S55.
The Mk7 had an Alvis Leonides radial engine fitted with an exciting cartridge starter & a fuel prime system. It was used both for pinging & troop carrying in Malaysia & other locations. The main weakness was not so much the engine but the clutch had a dreadful tendency to let go, especially if used harshly. As mentioned students did wet winching in these & one unfortunate crewman was ditched 3 times in 6 weeks in Falmouth harbour, all clutch failures I think. Being somewhat twitched, he put in for a transfer & even more unfortunately was killed at Predanack when a student stuffed up a practise auto & somersaulted the machine.
Having said that both the 3 & 7 were fun to fly. I never flew the Mk3 Wessex, only the Mk1 & Mk5 being a jungly.
Boy, that all seems soooo long ago!!

[JerryG]

A couple more Wessex memories for the scrapbook:-

Wessex 1 on 771 - Always fun to park it on the spot with the exhaust facing the squadron buildings. When done with precision you could usually take out the CO's office window when the starter turbine blades shed on the next start.

Wessex 1 on Ark SAR - Much better than pinging.....the Stovies not only spoke to you but bought you beers as well !

Wessex 3 on 737 - Horrible horrible aircraft (but this memory may possibly be coloured by being thrown out of Portland when Wings thought I was knobbing his girlfriend).

Wessex V on 771 - Queen of the skies. So many people around the coast of Cornwall owe their lives to that beautiful aircraft and the amazing antics of the guys down the back of the bus. Two or more hours over the '79 Fastnet Race and the Chief got us back to shore within 100 yards of where we'd left.....all on dead reckoning!

......Leaning out of the door when the windscreen iced up

......Peeing quietly and carefully down the crafted metal tube. At least it would have been quiet if only someone had put the rubber bag back on the bottom of the pipe. Our German aircrewman was anything but quiet by the time I'd emptied my bladder all over his neck.

But my absolute favourite Wessex story comes from the "Green Parrot" at Portland (which I never flew). Tasked with flying Admirals and their white suited ADCs to and from various vessels this job could be a pain. A certain Lieutenant from Yorkshire found his oil temp rising on the trip back one day. He duly put out a Pan call and warned the crewman who was sitting down the back with an Admiral and his ADC, both wearing ear defenders and reading their ironed copy of the The Times.

Secondary indication of falling oil pressure.....pilot warns crewman of imminent ditching.......puts out a Mayday.....briefs that he'll hover for a moment whilst crewman puts passengers in the water with a dinghy. Wessex comes to hover.....crewman unstraps surprised Admiral and throws him roughly out of the door. ADC (with earduffs, therefore no comms, therefore unaware of impending doom) takes offence at losing his Admiral and starts a fight. Crewman wins....(what a surprise).....and hurls ADC into the oggin....closely followed by dinghy inflated with lanyard.

Pilot hovers clear and prepares to ditch when......astonishingly......temp begins to go down and pressure begins to rise. He tentatively tries forward flight which seems to further improve the situation. He climbs to autorotative height and nurses his stricken machine successfully back to land. Great applause for pilot.....Admiral and ADC eventually recovered by another cab.

It was quite a while later when somebody noticed that this had been the last scheduled flight for that pilot on that squadron and that he was due to leave the Navy the following week. What a stylish departure!

Cheers to the Wessex.
JerryG

[John Eacott]

Nigel,

Farnborough 1968: too late to be you?

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/845%20Farnborough%20small.jpg

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi John

Yes, too late for me. I left the RN,707 Sqd Culdrose in April 1967; just the other day surely???
I had the pleasure of performing at Farnborough with 848 & the Wessex 5 in 1964. 848 on Albion replaced 845, who had the Wessex 1, on Bulwark in 1964 in Singapore & on their return got the Wessex 5. I remember Bryan but was never in any of his squadrons.
How do you keep finding all these old memorabilia????

[John Eacott]

How do you keep finding all these old memorabilia????

SWMBO told me to clean out the office at home :rolleyes:

[soggyboxers]

I remember that Farnborough well, though I'm struck by how young Brian (the Screaming Skull) Sarginson looks there, when we young pilots thougfht of him as really ancient then. He was the CO of 705 Squadron when I went through, so it was a bit of a shock to find the man of whom I'd been in awe as a stude being my first operational CO. At that Farnborough (I think) the Basingstoke Canal burst its banks and we had to go and move the helicopters to higher ground. We were also given a lot of trials motorbikes - much more fun than the 'Dead Sparrers' MGBs and quite a few were badly damaged as we young hooligans wearing Denison Smocks and flying helmets zoomed around the Church Crookham area. I seem to remember that we went over to where the Dead Sparrers had their aircraft parked, stuck lots of Fly Navy stickers all over them and revved up our trials bikes on the soggy grass, covering their flashy cars with mud. I'm trying to remember if that was also the year where, sadly the Breguet Atlantique crashed when flying on one engine and turning in towards the 'dead' engine.
That was also the year we embarked in HMS Bulwark and set off for the first Exercise Arctic Express operating near the Bardufos area in Northern Norway. The Wessex nose doors were modified soon after that as they didn't take kindly to operating in a damp, cold climate and suffered from engine icing, so we had to remember numerous limits of so many Ng for so long, then so many for so long when descending in cloud. It was also around that time we were doing quite a lot of close night formation flying trials with Beta lights fitted in the blade caps and down the top of the tail cone, so they could only be seen from above. ll nav lights were extinguished and just the red cockpit instrument lights left on radiating light in the visible spectrum. It was quite exciting, to say the least, trying to get a formation together as we used to take off from the Rusty 'B' 4 at a time and tried to link up for a 16 aircraft close night assault formation. I thik it was decided that it took so long, it was just as easy to fly the aircraft in 2 at a time in a loose, 'tactical' formation. Ah, long ago, happy days. :ok:
Well done John; lovely to see that old photo again. Sadly, after many years of living away from home, house moves, divorce and all the usual pilot disasters, most of my photos from those days are long gone. One day I must get around to scanning and digitising my few remaining ones. If you have any more, keep them coming.

[SHortshaft]

I once saw wreckage in the scrub behind the beach in Tai Long Wan, New Territories, Hong Kong, which was alleged to be the remains of a RAF Whirlwind that had been dropped by a RN Wessex.

The story went that the Whirlwind had malfunctioned and a Wessex from a passing RN vessel was called into return the Whirlwind, under slung, to Kai Tak. Unfortunately the two helicopters parted company during the flight.

Does anyone remember such an event? Did it really take place? Probably during the late 60s.

[Nigel Osborn]

Not in my time, chief. But what RN pilot wouldn't want to drop a RAF helicopter?
With a 4000 lb limit, I would be surprised if the Whirlwind was stripped down to that weight.:ok:

[Plank Cap]

Anyone remember the infamous Stan Sollitt? He flew the Wessex (60) amongst many other types for Bristow, and had a few exciting moments in them by all accounts. Last came across him in 1988 at Cranfield, where he was the boss of Trent Helicopters training, having left Bristows a short while previously. Anyone know if he is still with us?

[nutcracker43]

Plank Cap

No idea but his son was flying with Bristows up in Sumburgh the last time I heard. Stan was my instructor at Tern Hill, on and off, and it was he who taught me to do 'confined areas'. Haven't seen him since those days even though we worked together at Bristows.

NC43

[TipCap]

Yes I knew Stan Sollitt well and also Tony (son).

I had the pleasure of flying the Mk V and also the Wessex 60. If my memory serves me well my last flight I did was on 3rd February 1977 flying G-ATCB

[soggyboxers]

Stan's last job with Bristow was the Principal of the Bristow Training School at Redhill, but he continued flying for several years after he retired from that. He is still very much 'with us'.
Tony is presently flying Super Pumas for Bristow in Nigeria and was in PH very recently with the SNEPCO machine which moved down there from Snake Island.

[dedhead]

Gentlemen,regarding the enquiries about my father,Stan Sollitt.He is still going
strong.In fact,a few weeks ago I had a few beers with him in York on my way
back here to Nigeria.
And yes,I will be found lurking by the bar of the Star King hotel in PH again
next week.

[bast0n]

Hey Yak - you still out there? I think I flew the WX5 occasionally.........

[heli1]

Ok you Wessex fans ...here is a challenge for you.
Has anyone got their helmets and Mae Wests from the Falklands era or can give a steer on where I might find four off?
They are needed for a film about the Falkands so there might be some money in it for you!!

[wessex19]

YouTube - RAN FAA Wessex 31B Helicopter four formation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3z0oEG4mhI)

best wessex footage on the net out of albatross in 1987

[IFlyS76C]

I flew the Wessex 60 for Bristows many years ago, Lovely old machine. Only twin u could fly single engine!

[Simonta]

A Walter lands and instantly starts padding heavily. Takes off again, lands and starts padding. Ground crew go out to take a look and diagnose a collapsed oleo. They changed the oleo in the hover. From memory, took about 2 hours and we changed pilots a couple of times during the job.

Loady and pilot swap jackets on a pongo insert. Arrive at the cab, and in ear short of pongo the loady (who's really the pilot) says to the pilot (who's really the loady), "Mind if I fly this one sir? I've been practising a lot". Pilot (loady) says "Not sure, remember what happened last time you had a go? Oh, alright then. But don't tell anyone". So, they all strap in, start up and lift off - at which point the loady(pilot) gives the controls a good stir. It was everything they could do to stop the pongos unstrapping and jumping off!

Pilot would take up a tin of fruit salad emptied into a sick bag. At some good point in the cruise, he'd start making puking noises over the intercomm and pretend to vomit into the bag. Then pass the bag between his legs to the loady and ask him to throw it out of the door. Before dropping it, the loady would open the bag, peer in, take a sniff then dip in a finger and taste it. Pongos down the back are now reaching for their own bags.

Me climbing up from the cabin into the cockpit by lifting the pilots seat and sliding up - a common way in. Somehow, I managed to snag the srpring loaded flap guard over the emergency cable cutter and press the button! Bigish bang and there's a cable hook and a couple of metres of cable lying on the pan. I worked late that night!

Walter gets back and is put to bed for the A/F during which a fairly neat set of holes is found right on the curve at the base of the tail. Maybe caught the fence on the way out? Nope, they're holes not tears. Local with an air rifle or .22? Nope, the holes go in from both sides! Complete mystery. About a week later, a VHS tape arrives in the squadron mail with some footage from CCTV at Bessbrook. As Walter lifts off, a dog runs across the pan, jumps up and sinks it's gnashers into the tail! Hangs on for a few seconds before letting go and letting Walter get away. Rumour had it that poor doggy tried the same thing on a Gazelle a little later and stuck his snout into the tail rotor with weekend spoiling results.

Hope this stirs a few memories for people out there - and for any ex-72s, hello!!!!

[Nigel Osborn]

The first tale happened to a Wessex 1 of 845 Squadron in Borneo about 1964 or 65. They made a heavy landing in a clearing for reasons I don't remember, took off immediately & flew back to their base at Nanga Gaat. Unfortunately all the Wessex were airborne a distance away & no spare oleo was available, only wheels. They stayed in a hover for quite a while, changed pilots & refueled in a low hover. When the first Wessex came back, the engineers jacked it up to remove the oleo & replaced the broken one still in a low hover. No problem for the good old Wessex!:ok:

[[email protected]]

Simonta - if memory serves, the dog incident happened at Dungannon in 1984 and yes it did try to eat a Gazelle fenestron with unfortunate consequences.

Walter was very good at ploughing as well, either with the TR (J** Ch***ler memorial trench at Aughnacloy) or with the nose door (Slack-Dick memorial trench near Middletown) and trimming trees (VDB, Cookstown).

Happy memories of 72:ok:

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Sat here with nowt to do so have just re-read most of this thread, Seven years ago it was started, where the hell does time go!!

Vfr

Peter R-B

[Trojan1981]

My Father's youtube video (he didn't shoot it), might be of interest.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=o3z0oEG4mhI:ok:

o3z0oEG4mhI

[ShyTorque]

As Walter lifts off, a dog runs across the pan, jumps up and sinks it's gnashers into the tail! Hangs on for a few seconds before letting go and letting Walter get away. Rumour had it that poor doggy tried the same thing on a Gazelle a little later and stuck his snout into the tail rotor with weekend spoiling results.

That was put down in the report as an IRAte dog.

[Biggles225]

Ive heard the 'fruit salad' one before, told by an old (over 30) BOAC Capt at Kuching in the 60s, re training new hosties, except they used chicken soup. FO calls hostie, says 'Capt is not feeling well can you get him a bag?' Capt trades that for the bag with the chicken soup, as he hands it across FO grabs it says 'Don't waste it it's warm!' and drinks it. In general, collapse of new hostie. :eek:

But it was probably apochryphal even then!

[bast0n]

Fruit salad?

What is needed is an oyster out of its shell- and you can do this anywhere - pop the oyster into your handkerchief, sneeze very loudly and obviously into said handkerchief - pre briefed friend leans across and eats oyster! Used to use it to clear train compartments when they had them, and it really does work. You have to like oysters though!

Try it and post how you get on.:)

[HueyLoach]

I would rather post it under MILITARY AIRCREW - LAST FLIGHT OF THE WESSEX but the thread is closed. :confused:

Former RAF HC2 Wessex XR505 still flying and doing maritime medevac as last week.

MfSgy_c_Az4

YouTube - MEDEVAC A-081.AVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSgy_c_Az4)

[Flag Track]

Any one know why these Cabs were acquired, when the type was at the end of it's life, EA & DA-wise? I wonder where the spares are coming from?


That being asked, Long live the Mighty Wx!

[Fareastdriver]

There are stacks of S58s and S58Ts sculling around the world. Airframe bits are not a problem; the only worry would be the Gnome attachments.

[Oldlae]

I was told some time ago that all the ex-MOD Wx and spares are sent to Uruguay.

[heli1]

Not quite true Oldlae.....thre are a number of Wessex 2s here in the UK owned by a geezer who wanted to get a CofA or Permit to Fly for them...so far refused.Spares too but combining gearboxes are the problem.
when last heard Uruguay still had three aircraft but only one flying.

[Savoia]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k2KhcoGYQjo/UZSUx2gMbCI/AAAAAAAANmo/xrC075FL6xs/w473-h413-no/Charlie+caption.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PLwipNmJlUY/UZSVl5oHaVI/AAAAAAAANnM/H3Wb4mQHdBg/w800-h533-no/Navy+Wessex.jpg

Regarding the correlation between the rescuer and rescuee .. what one has to remember is .. this is the Navy! :E

[aviationfan123]

It appears they are flying?
Welcome to The Wessex Club - Home of the Wessex Enthusiast (http://www.thewessexclub.com)

[racingrigger]

All the talk seems to be about Mk 1,2,3 & 5s. How about the HCC 4!!!

[Herod]

Apart from a fancy interior, and I believe having major components half-lifed, it's basically a Mk 2

[racingrigger]

Nearly right - it's basically a Mk 5 eg bigger windows etc

[Herod]

I stand corrected, but then again, the 5 wasn't a whole lot different from the 2. The tail being easier to fold perhaps?

[[email protected]]

We had Mk5 s that had been converted to Mk2 spec in Cyprus in the 80s - very little difference apart from the external 'drop' fuel tank on the port side.

We also went through the process of half-lifing many components so we could use them for a Royal visit there.

[extpwron]

Back in the late 70’s/early 80’s, Gutersloh based 18 Sqn had to half-life two Mk 2s (one plus a spare) for a visit by Princess Margaret. Engineering nightmare and I believe they also had to fit ashtrays!

[heli1]

BothHCC MK.4s survive of course...one in the RAF Museum and the other in the Helicopter Museum alongside the surviving Whirlwind HCC MK 12.
However the MK.4 at Weston suffers from recurring under surface " worm" corrosion along the panel joins at the tail section ,presumably from dissimilar metals ? It's been treated and resprayed but has come back.

[racingrigger]

Corrosion was always a problem, particularly in the early days when nearly all the skinning was of magnesium alloy. This made the helicopter that bit lighter, but was a Westland con in that the maintenance costs far outwade the benefit of weight saving. As the years went by much of the skinning was replaced (often by MARTSU) with L72 Alclad, but once again if a magnesium skin butted/overlapped an alclad one there would be trouble ahead, as you suggested dissimilar metal problems. In the early days as part of a 25 hour servicing and before the advent of WD40, we used to have to wipe the external skin with OM-15 hydraulic oil for corrosion protection - this made for an interesting surface finish in sandy places like Khormaksar!

[peterperfect]

I saw a load of ex-Shawbury Wx 2 and some ex-US military Sikorsky S58s parked up behind a hangar at Punta del Este Air Station, Uruguay a couple of years ago if anyone needs photos. One Wx2 looked complete and the rumour was that it was flyable, the rest were in various states of decay and robbing.

[[email protected]]

Peter, are you sure it was Punta del Este? I saw 6 Wessex in various states of decline between hangars at Montevideo in 2011. The FAU had taken the wet fit floor out of one of them and bodged it into their 365 for winching work.

[peterperfect]

defo at the old USN seaplane base at Punta del Este, in 2013. There were also two ex-RN Astazou Jetstreams with Culdrose markings although their engines had been robbed, and a good number of ex-USN Grumman Trackers. Looks like they ran out of money and spares to keep them flying. XR-505 looked all there though and was protected from any weather. Also a signed squadron print in the crewroom of a nearby building relating to the Wx II delivery. I've got some other photos of two decimated airframes but I don't seek to make an old aviator weep.

[[email protected]]

The ones I saw in Montevideo weren't in much better condition so the Uruguayans must have bought more than I thought.

I was a sad sight seeing so many worn out Wessex gently rotting - The main problem they had with them was fuel computers - I don't think they knew how to set them up or maintain them properly. One of the older Sqn pilots who had flown them was gobsmacked when I told him I had 3000 hrs on Wessex and had only had one real computer freeze in that time - they used to get them every sortie!

I flew with 5 Sqn FUA on a visit there in their UH-1, 212 and 365. We also went to their fixed wing base further North where they had a twin engine fighter bomber with Astazous in them - that explains where the engine from the Jetstreams went.

Thanks for the pix!

[Lee Howard]

https://haynes.com/en-gb/westland-wessex-manual

Haynes Wessex Manual due out early next month, with thanks to several PPRuNers for their help in its preparation. :-)

[[email protected]]

It looks excellent Lee, well done:ok:

[John Eacott]

https://haynes.com/en-gb/westland-wessex-manual

Haynes Wessex Manual due out early next month, with thanks to several PPRuNers for their help in its preparation. :-)

That looks an interesting manual Lee; another one for the library :ok:

May I politely suggest that the cover image and page 111 skeleton image, excellent as they are, shows a drawing of a 'dipping sonar' quite unlike the Type 195 sonar fitted to the HAS3 which is the subject Wessex. If not too late, that really could do with being corrected?

Sea King image, but the 195 is the same as the Wx3

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1854-1/700S+Sea+King+dipping.jpg

[FD2]

Sounds good enough to me apart from John's sonar point (and there are bound to be a few other minor problems) - so I think I'll order a copy. Sneaking a peek inside the book on Amazon it looks very comprehensive - thank you Lee - come up and take a bow!

[29Alpha]

When they used to be in Northern Ireland, i seen many an impressive turn of agility used to evade the scum on countless occasions, she was indeed a good tree topper

[Fareastdriver]

Sometimes they used to top the trees quite well.

[Lee Howard]

Chaps

Thanks for the comments about the book. I had wanted to post a separate thread with thanks to all who helped from this forum, but I appear to be on moderation...

Regarding the cover shot, this wasn't my choice. The image was an archive one which had originally been drawn for FLIGHT many years ago. Unfortunately, and despite much trawling through many archives, I failed to find a suitable cutaway of a Mk.1 or one of the Gnome-powered variants which I would have much preferred. I suspected it would get criticised for being a Mk.3.

I did, however, choose the cover colours to try and cover both RN and RAF variants!

Lee

[Senior Pilot]

Chaps

Thanks for the comments about the book. I had wanted to post a separate thread with thanks to all who helped from this forum, but I appear to be on moderation...
Lee

And so you will remain for as long as you keep complaining about a forum and a moderating team who have allowed you to use them to research and promote your books.

Quite why you feel 'hard done by' because you

1. chose to flaunt the forum rules (posting Private Messages online and receiving a short restriction of posting on one thread, not as you maintain a ban on PPRuNe generally)
2. repeatedly complain online about moderation (prohibited under the T&Cs that you agreed to)
3. advertise your books in contravention of the same T&Cs
4. encouraged members to share reminiscences privately through PMs and emails instead of posting online for ALL to read and enjoy, which is the raison d'être of PPRuNe,

is a sign of your singular and selfish outlook. Not all can afford to purchase your book in order to read dits that you have garnered here for free.

And note that there is nothing preventing you from posting a seperate thread to thank members and PPRuNe for their assistance, and to share the stories that you received via PM and emails here for all to enjoy :ok:

[[email protected]]

From the emails I've received from other PPRuNe members about how you've treated me, it seems you've done this to others, too, and got something of a poor reputation for doing so. I can only assume that that you get some form of kick out of exerting this 'power' over people. All very sad.

And one last note: you said that 'not everyone can afford to buy' my books? On military wages/pensions? You seem to think that we authors sleep on piles of banknotes earned by stealing the sweat of poorly-paid aircrew memories? If so, you really don't have a clue.


And then you wonder why you got moderated.....................

[hico-p]

Just got a copy today ... what a splendid job Lee Howard has done - not a surprise I suppose considering his other publications, but still a joy to have such a treasure trove of memories of the dear old Wessie.

Lee has asked me to pass on his thanks to all those who gave their time and have helped and contributed to the book as he has been unable to do so publicly.

[EMS R22]

Anyone tried Mitch Jones from NZ? He’s done a lot in the Wessex.....

[John Eacott]

jayteet

As the only protagonist I know who's driven both double deckers (admittedly not from the top deck!) and the fine old Wessex, the bus loses out every time.

John E's memory is good for those figures, and I seem to remember a rotor span of 56ft and a height of 14ft 6in just like a Routemaster. The HU5 had an overload to 14000lbs with a running take off and when it went out of service wuth the RN a basic of pushing 10000lbs, hence a very limited usefulness.

The missiles were SS11 (A Tank) and AS12 (A Ship). Both wire guided, so no heroics as the aimer had to steer the sight with one hand and the missile with the other. The bunting and lobbing was done with the 2" RPs. Not strictly necessary but fun anyway.

Lu Z, it's a twin turbine S58 remember, not the S61 which became the Sea King. Got a good video of one of them doing a little more than the 30deg limit of bank too.


http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5350-1/Wessex+weapons+platform.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5836-2/WessexV018_jpg_original.jpeg

Having just had a visit from HRH Thr Prince of Wales to the C'wealth Games here on the Gold Coast, I was reminded of this photo when he visited RNAS Culdrose for the Air Show (1972?). Didn't do much but the WxV with dayglo panels over the camouflage finish was quite unusual for the time.

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/4620-2/PoW+Wessex+V+2.jpg

[Nigel Osborn]

A was the first Wessex 5 we got in the IFTU & then it went into 848 Squadron. For unknown reasons it was 10 knots slower than the others & carried 100 lbs less. For that reason it was given to our CO, Lt Cdr Geoff Andrews to fly, so he couldn't go faster than us in formation! Some 2 years later in Singapore a civilian salesman selling a vibration gadget, forgotten its name, picked up the fault which Westlands couldn't, our engineers fixed what the gadget said & low & behold A gained 10 knots & 100 lb payload! The basic weight was well below 10000 lbs, don't remember the figure, the max weight was 13500 lbs, no overload allowed. It could easily pick up a 4000 lb Lamdrover & have plenty of fuel.
In Borneo the Wessex was often overloaded because of the confrontation problems & flown faster than vne. 2 rotor blades lost pockets which Westlands said was constant over weight flying! I'm sure we didn't! A great helicopter loved by the squadron! Don't know how to add photos! :ok:

[Nigel Osborn]

The SS11 was not fired by the flying pilot but a trained SS11 pilot in the left seat, not easy to be accurate as we didn't get much practice. The left window was removed in the back so the crewman could pull the string on the machine gun to cock it & when jammed.

[TipCap]

As a SS11 aimer, I remember being trained at Culdrose chasing a white dot on a wall of a building.

Memory a bit vague now as that was 52 years ago - scary or what!!!

Never got to fire one for real but remembering having great fun at Castlemartin ranges with Jerry Knapp letting loose 2" rockets and the gpmg

TC

[Fareastdriver]

In the 1970s we flew a couple of our Pumas to Compiegne to visit a French Army Puma squadron. They also had an Allouette squadron equipped with the SS11.

They had a simulator outside the hanger which gave you all the experience in real time of firing one. The dot on the screen would react as per the real thing and you had the local scenery behind.

They, and we, used to track the buses going in and out of the nunnery about two kilometres away.

[jimmyoc]

Hi chaps, can anyone settle an argument on the location of this Wessex Helicopter during the Falklands war, Mount Kent and Mount Challenger have been suggested, the helicopter seems to be getting loaded and no one is overly anxious, any help on the location would really be appreciated.
Bye for now Jimmyhttps://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1412x855/103_63af9cad3c1e7aaf89badf55ba63f10892e3eb1a.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/749x610/kent_22546911bce41d31cf31314e151e5d67ec13f225.jpg

[Dave B]

Can anyone confirm the story, that in the early sixties, in Borneo, during the confrontation, an armed RN Wessex, fought off an attack by an Indonesian P51 Mustang, and chased it back over the border.
Or have I been dreaming ?.
It was a story I heard at the time.

[Nigel Osborn]

You have been dreaming! We didn't have the means to attack a P51 plus it was a fair bit faster than our 90 kt cruise, so chasing a P51 was not an option! On 2 occasions near the border, I had a P51 fly up my right hand side to formate! I think he may have had his flaps down! After a cheery wave he flashed off over the border. I certainly never heard your story either before my time or during.

[Georg1na]

Oh Nigel you are dreaming again...................P51s in Borneo when you were there...........................too much Tiger I feel!

[Nigel Osborn]

Georg1na.
The Indonesians had some P51 & Mitchel bombers. Being petrol engined & not turbine engined, the RAF & RAAF fighters only had heat seeking missiles designed to shoot down jet engined aircraft & not petrol engined. Consequently the fighters were often requipped with machine guns. A few pilots told me the Indon aircraft used to fly next to them knowing they couldn't be shot down. I may be old with fading memory but I think I can still remember a P51 without the help of some Tiger!

[Fareastdriver]

designed to shoot down jet engined aircraft & not petrol engined

Have you seen the flame that comes out of a supercharged piston engine at night. Ask the German night fighter pilots; they could pick up a Lancaster at ten kilometres.

You could walk along the door of a hanger holding a lit cigarette and watch a missile's seeker following you from the other end.

[SASless]

I suppose some wag will tell us that is why the Russians use the Bear Bomber still....being prop driven and all.

No hot air coming out of those Turbines I suppose.

[Dave B]

Georg1na
Some third world countries still had piston engine fighters up to the sixties and beyond. Indonesia had P51s, as did Guatemala which was threatening Belize until a detachment of RAF Harriers shut them down.(not a fair contest).
I once did a ferry flight with a French pilot, who had flown Thunderbolts in Algeria, he said after flying jets they were frightened stiff of the things.
The last two RAF Bristol Beaufighters were only taken out of service at Seleter in 1960. (and being perfectly serviceable were broken up for scrap).

[Georg1na]

on 2 occasions near the border, I had a P51 fly up my right hand side to formate!

Not denying their existence Dave B, just that Yak is imagining things I feel......................!!

[TLDNMCL]

I never flew it but I did fly in it; a daily SAR patrol at Manston followed by a general handling session. Did the side door leg dangling bit during this; grass/sky/grass/sky/turn on a sixpence and then stop mid-air. Until the I had no idea that the big lump was so agile. A great experience.

[SASless]

How long did the USN and USAF use the Sky Raider?

Some Sky Raider Pilots did down Mig 17's.


https://theaviationist.com/2015/01/14/the-most-unusual-mig-killer-the-skyraider-air-to-air-victories-on-north-vietnamese-mig-17s/

[ShyTorque]

Georg1na
Some third world countries still had piston engine fighters up to the sixties and beyond. Indonesia had P51s, as did Guatemala which was threatening Belize until a detachment of RAF Harriers shut them down.(not a fair contest).
I once did a ferry flight with a French pilot, who had flown Thunderbolts in Algeria, he said after flying jets they were frightened stiff of the things.
The last two RAF Bristol Beaufighters were only taken out of service at Seleter in 1960. (and being perfectly serviceable were broken up for scrap).

Honduras still had "Gull winged" Corsairs in the early 1980s! Our groundcrew in Belize recovered one that landed wheels up on Airport Camp runway - the badly bent propellor was given to the detachment as a trophy (and a big trophy it was) and used as an unofficial "gate guardian" by the Williamson Hangar. The aircraft was later fixed up with a new prop and not much else and later flew out again, iirc.