Who should pay?

[Bucking Bronco]

Asking all Wannabes...

Who should pay for your application?
Who should pay for your assesment?
Who should pay for your licence?
Who should pay for your type rating?

The answer to the above questions is employers, it is not you.

Which other industry has companies that charge £50 to respond to a job advert? Or charge £160 to interview you? Or insist on you paying for a specific qualification to allow you to do a job for them?

It is because there are so many desperate wannabes out there who are willing to do almost anything to get that "dream job" that employers are able to take the p!ss out of you.

The question you have to ask yourself is, having mortgaged yourself up to the hilt and etched a subsistance living for a few years hour building will it be "worth it" when you get that dream job?

Q:- To assess whether it is "worth it" you must ask yourself why you want to fly commercially?

If the answer is purely for pecuniary reasons then may I suggest that you consider the fact that this no longer is a fantastically paid job, and that paying off your debts (lets say £70k) and buying a house (very expensive these days) as well as living will stretch your modest salary.

If the answer is for the love of flying then please may I put it to you that following the magenta line is not exactly the most thrilling of flying jobs and that if you genuinely love flying then do something a little more hands on like aerial photography, instructing, crop dusting or something in a similar vein.

If your answer is a combination of the above ie money and flying then the career at the moment still, just about, provides this but only without the millstone of financially hardship incurred getting you into the right hand seat of that shiny jet.

So the answer is surely to allow all airlines to pay the costs of your journey into the right hand seat. For this to happen we'd have to accept that there will be rigourous selection and a period of bonding to that company. If you don't make the grade then perhaps you should reconsider your choice of career. How many people are out there with plenty of hours and years experience who remain "unemployable" in the views of the airlines - there is a reason for this - they're possibly just not good enough.

The future would be a hell of a lot brighter if the process of getting into the career involved the airlines paying all the costs and the process being a true meritocracy/example of darwwinsim. ie Only the fittest and most able get the ticket - regardless of race/sex/class. It should not be down to those people with rich parents or those people fool hardy enough to get way over their heads in debt and think that they'll only get there through perservence.

We are professionals and should be treated as such, lets stop prostituting ourselves in search of the dream lest it become a nightmare!


Yours Truly

BB

[BoeingMEL]

BB seems to make a persuasive argument for the airlines meeting all costs. Having recently retired after 31 years flying I would say this: 1: Nothing you can say or do will ever influence the industry's recruitment/training criteria. 2: There are 2 types of newly qualified professional pilot.... those who will invest in their airline recruitment/training and those who will not (this 2nd group also known as the terminally unemployed!) 3: It can be quite hot in the kitchen... if you can't stand the heat.... 4: If you've waited until this stage to decide that you don't agree with certain airlines' recruitment/training policies, your early research and decision-making is now looking extremely shabby! Good luck to all Wannabees... make your decision..stick to the task and enjoy! If you want a job whinging work in a call-centre! PS The worst first-officers I ever flew with were the terminal whingers!! BM

[Sir Donald]

Bucking Bronco,

I agree with what you are saying, i raised the same point when the so called ''Type Rating Sponsorship'' was offered by EZY, and guess what? I was shot down from the likes who maybe happen to have access to ££££ arguing that at the end you will be flying a new shiny jet, forgetting the bigger picture working for less than your average folk. Latter we might join the firefighters in their endeavour for better pay.

''5 years on a reduced salary?????''
Hello, anybody home??????

[JohnnyPharm]

Everyone keeps going on about "shiny new jets"!!!!! If you have seen FR's 737-200's they are most definately not shiny!!!!!

[sss]

Latter we might join the firefighters in their endeavour for better pay


i think it should be intresting watching the army take over the flying, go for it :D

[millerscourt]

Bucking Bronco. You are absolutely right in whar you say,but tell any young person this has become a c**p job,they will just say we are bitter old men!!

I sometimes wonder whether these Wannabees ever look at other threads like Pilots Hours to increase or Morale etc etc where quite clearly lots of us who have been in the business for sometime do not quite see how shiny ones jet is makes any difference whatsoever.

[johnnypick]

I know the ryanair £50 application fee has come under alot flak over the last few months, but I can see why they've done it. Everyone I have spoken to since I started flying has said, as soon as you get your licence, send out CV's to every airline you can think of, it dosn't matter that you don't have the hours/type rating/experience, just send em'. Ryanair are just saving themselves from opening thousands of CV's that are not what they are looking for. People will now not send in a CV unless they have the minimum requirements. If I did have the experience and they were looking, I'd consider 50 quid a worth while punt!
excuse me while I put on my bullet proof vest, extra protection in the back!!

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Johnnypick,

I very much doubt the fire brigade charges 50 quid to each person that applies to them for a job (as they too are inundated with large numbers of applicants for a small number of positions) let alone charge them for an interview afterwards.

The whole process stinks to me as does the paltry salary that Ryannair pays initially. I am reliably informed that Ryannair have been cold calling Easyjet guys asking tham if they want to jump ship. Maybe these guys should negotiate a 50 pound fee before accepting the phone call !

Market forces dictate I'm afraid and I hope it comes back to haunt them at a later date. Nothing against the employees but the man who runs it is a charleton who would sell his mother C.O.D.

[High Wing Drifter]

I sometimes wonder whether these Wannabees ever look at other threads like Pilots Hours to increase or Morale etc etc
You think that what is written on PPRUNE should put off wannabes? Believe me, the world is no prettier in other careers! Employers cutting costs and employees being disadvantaged is par for the course the world over.

[Pagwana]

What sort of salary do the different main British airliners pay newly recruited pilots who are on their first pilots job?

[A and C]

This is all about market forces Ryanair see hundreds of wannabe pilots sending them CV,s for a few jobs so they see a chance to pay for there recruting and make a few bob out of it , its all a case of supply and demand.

If all pilots stopped applying to ryanair then thay would have to drop the charges ........so guys the ball is in your court on this one !.

Another thread worth reading is about the T5 builders who are being paid £55,000 , another case of supply and demand.

[millerscourt]

High Wing Drifter I hear what you say and agree but those other people's job you refer to did not have to cough up £70000++ to get them in the first place,and even when spending this money the actual chances of gaining employment are remote judging by the number of unemployed new pilots bleating on Pprune about the situation,but still more carry on going ahead totally blinkered from reality.

As WWW said they should pay more attention to the supply of Pilots in the EU rather than assume there will ever be a Pilot shortage which I have been hearing about for the past 35 years and it only ever came close to that once.

[High Wing Drifter]

High Wing Drifter I hear what you say and agree but those other people's job you refer to did not have to cough up £70000++ to get them in the first place,and even when spending this money the actual chances of gaining employment are remote judging by the number of unemployed new pilots bleating on Pprune about the situation,but still more carry on going ahead totally blinkered from reality.
Yup, point taken, I agree. Given the crazy outlay one would expect more help. However, PPRUNE is considerably more negative than the people I talk to in the flesh. There are alot of bitter people on here but my guess is that the numbers of regular posters is a tiny % of those who are able to provide first hand accounts of the trials and tribualations of being a pilot. This is a pure gut feeling I have not the data to back this statement up! Neither is this meant to be a slur upon the fine folks who have something to say here. It is just an impression that I seem to have developed...somehow.

[Bucking Bronco]

BoeingMEL

"1: Nothing you can say or do will ever influence the industry's recruitment/training criteria. 2: There are 2 types of newly qualified professional pilot.... those who will invest in their airline recruitment/training and those who will not (this 2nd group also known as the terminally unemployed!)"

You are correct in saying that there's nothing I alone can say or do but by starting this post and reopening old arguements I am hoping that it will possibly get wannabes to start thinking and acting on a united front. Thats the power of democracy and the internet as a communication tool that reaches many wannabes. As for your point (2) I did not invest any of my own money in my training as I was sponsored by "The World's Favourite"; at my time of application Midland were also recruiting cadets but required you to stump up close to £20k - I didn't apply.

Nowadays you have sponsorship schemes whereby they state that if you fail the course you are required to pay back the full cost of training - what a kick to the teeth, "your dream is over and you owe us £60k". If you pass however then you have the prospects of a really low wage and repaying the loan for years to come, all this while trying to grasp the bottom rung of a housing ladder going/gone into orbit.

As for me being a whinger, well yes but this is on behalf of the wannabes not myself. I am lucky enough to be in a position in which I have my licence and a job in the right hand seat of an intercontinental aluminium beast, it matters not a jot to me if people are all paying for their own training and type rating. However where I see injustices and wrong I feel compelled to comment. I have seen everything on these threads from people giving MO'L £50 notes to people saying that they will work for free for 6 months. If this downward spiral continues then we end up in a world where the pilot pays for all his application/training costs, gets paid a pittance for his career and is told that he should be ecstatic where he is. Not to mention that all the pilots will be either from wealthy backgrounds or just crazy enough to get debted up to ridiculous levels, either way it will mean that not necessarily the people with "the right stuff" get into the hot seat. They will be elsewhere earning a decent wage whilst the chimps fly for their peanuts.

On the other hand we can appreciate that at the moment the overall supply/demand curve favours the employers, but shift the supply lines for individual operators (as A and C advocates) ie whilst MO'L charges £50 veto applications; in a similar way to IFALPA putting a ban on Cathay recruitment. If nobody applies to fly his expanding fleet then he'll drop the charge - trust me. Everytime you give him money/pay for your own type rating then thats even more money he can take off his fares - you can't make a profit on flying someone to Malmo for £20! Not unless your employees are subsidising it!

Since you, Mr BoeingMEL, have been in the industry for 31 years and just retired I suspect that yuo have done quite nicely out of it - you have enjoyed the Golden Age. There are countless reports out there that have stated that we Pilots have/are falling behind the standard of living that other professionals enjoy. Please don't try to blow out the attempts of people in the industry now of advancing our levels back to their rightful place.




Sir Donald

I agreed with your post but was too busy at the time to add my voice - sorry. I also fumed with anger when I heard that Brits had taken on a bunch of lads who'd paid for their own type ratings ahead of people in a holding pool. It seeems that more money you are willing to spend on the company's behalf the more attractive you are - surely not a meritocratic approach. At the end of the day it should be the best man/woman in the seat.



Millerscourt

Yep hear what you're saying. Aviation has changed alot in even the 6 years I've been in - whatever happened to that brown milk on the way to the hotel? Unfortunately I feel that too many wannabes are willing to sell themselves far too short to get the job, once in they will realise that the money and lifestyle isn't quite what they expected. I see the Europeans are trying to increase our hours up to 14 per duty period.



Johnnypick

Having applied to many graduate jobs when leaving University there was not one that required you to send £50 with your application form - I'm talking Banks, Management Consultants, FMCG Conglomerates etc. If we wish to be regarded as professionals we should behave as such and not descend into the pits of whichever applicant pays the most or is willing to work for the least gets the job.


High Wing Drifter

Yep, things are getting bad in other careers but do you have to outlay so much beforehand? Thats the crux of the thread.


Pagwana

About £20k I believe.




To summarise

I would like a world where the airlines pay for all the costs - remember they can offset this against tax unlike for individuals (thanks to the Labour Government). Where the airlines recruit the best person for the job and reward them appropriately.

All it takes is communication and solidarity amongst wannabes to get the ball rolling.




All the best

BB

[Sir Donald]

Dear SSS, Please Read the thread - Who should pay?

I like your satirical approach.
While you are too busy quoting and unquoting my opinion, guess what? The train drivers are also preparing to strike. Do they have to pay for their own'' train ratings''??? with a starting salary of about £ 25k - (Oh, not a reduced salary for 5 years and no bond?) Maybe you can muster up an army of ignorant daydreamers and prehaps come to the rescue, as i beleive the'' army are not qualified do drive trains''either.

[sss]

im glad you took my reply as toungue in cheek like it was meant.

i do actually agree with BB, i think (unless someone convinces me otherwise) that applicants are being had over by a large part of the industry.

what train drivers do have though is a reduced training salary when they first start til they become fully 'type rated' on that loco. but i think that is only reasonable that you get the full salary when your fully qualified.

as for the army driving trains, well actually they do there is a railway squadron.

[Cricketer]

What about the soldiers - they can't strike can they and they get paid crap to die for us - now that is fair! At least they don't pay for their application form!!

[johnnypick]

Bucking Bronco

All I was saying (and I knew it would'nt be popular) was, if he wants to keep overheads down, employing people to open and reply to CV's that have no chance of being accepted, is not the way to do it. The fact you sent a load CV's to companies for a post graduate position, and did'nt have to pay £50 is great, but their minimum requirements I'm sure, was a Degree. If you did'nt have a degree, you wouldn't send the CV. Ryanair, before the £50 charge, must have been snowed in with application from people with 250 hours a CPL and no IR, even though their minimums are way higher than that. getting rid of all those extra CV's means 2 less people in the personnel Dept. which means he can afford to employ 1 extra Pilot. People will now make sure they have all the experience that Ryanair require, before sending a CV.
I went to the US embassy last week for a Visa, but before you go, you have to call them. £1.30 a min, now I'm sure the embassy is not short of a few bob, but now people are gonna make damn sure that they're phoning for a valid reason, and get to the point quickly. And not phone up every 10 seconds because they cant understand a simple form.
If you don't like the £50 charge don't pay it, simple.

[simon brown]

I think the industry as a whole takes advantage of peoples passion for flight and they know damned well there will be a queue a mile long of people whom are willing to make huge sacrifices both financially and physically beating a path to their door.

If the aviation industry is to expand, its time the path for future pilots was made easier not more difficult .

:mad:

[Bucking Bronco]

Johnny Pick

I see where your coming from but would have to disagree. The Graduate recruiters get thousands of applications too, in their literature they will state minimum grades etc but this does not stop them from being inundated by applications with people that have micky mouse degrees from crap uni's.

Each application form has on average, I guess, about 2-3 minutes worth of attention.

What Ryanair et al should do is state their minima in plain black and white and any applicants without this minima can be weeded out in under 15seconds. Are Ryanair so inundated that they can't read say 100 forms a day (anyone got the actual figures)? Lets say thats 300 minutes/5 hours per day is manageable for one person.

I think that the real reason is that companies out there are taking the p1ss out of people, seeing that they can make a quick buck they take the oppurtunity.

As I have stated the companies should pay for everything and just bond their trainees accordingly, anyone that doesn't make the grade doesn't become a wannabe pilot and thus distort the supply curve. It is precisely because there are so many wannabes that the companies can take advantage - but how many are truly of the right calibre?

I realise that what I'm saying will upset a few people but think about it for a second. From first hand experience I have seen people fail countless tech and nav exams; and fly aircraft in an unbelievable manner. I can safely say that I wouldn't be happy for any of my family to be in the same aircraft as 1/3 of my classmates at Air Training College; guys whose money bought them a right to fly.

:(

[Sir Donald]

SSS, My appologies, no need for that i, know!
Just plainly frustrated right now and you will know why.
Please read my post in the BA recruitment(internal )thread in Terms and endearment forum.
Best of luck if you are out there hunting!
The Don.

[BoeingMEL]

Late..and hopefully good-humoured reply to BB about my "having done nicely" and "Golden Years". Mmmmmm now let's see... 6 times made redundant because of recessions, take-overs and bankruptcies.... 12000 incident/accident free hours.. self sponsorship (including 2 hefty secured loans) for Citation, Shorts 360, BAe125 and 737 type ratings. BUT...while I kept in work most of the time, the whingers and ne'er do wells waited for the industry to pick up! Not sure how "Golden Years" might be defined but, historically, those who have gone the extra mile have always made themselves potentially employable...even more so during recessions. As for meritocracy.... all candidates have the same licences and most have near identical training. Your true merits never become clearly apparent to your new employer until AFTER you have completed training and flown the line. Good luck to all Wannabees...... now re-arrange these words to form a well-known saying: spite, nose, face, don't, off, cut, your, to! Happy Landings. BM