Military Vs. Civilian

[lancelevin]

All,

I seemed to misinterpret my own commitment and did not quite phrase the question properly. I was just trying to establish what exactly life as an RAF pilot might be like, just in case I face the decision of choosing between Military and Civilian. Thanks for the advice, but please dont think I am some confused 18yo, hopefully I will soon be one of those graduates (with real dedication), and I have done alot of research, since I was 5. However there is only so much information about military life available to us civilian types.

Many thanks,

Lance

[mutleyfour]

Ummm...try LOW LEVEL!

[escapee]

If you cannot work that out for yourself maybe you shouldn't turn up for the interview!:rolleyes:

[rivetjoint]

Dropping things that go bang?

[Tonkenna]

Well me old, you are going to have to come up with something soon, because I can garuntee that those doing the interviews will see through any lack of commitement. There are always more applications than there are places and if you cannot prove to them that you want this more than anything you will not get in.

Think about how you will feel if you are unsuccessful. If you will not be totaly gutted then I suggest its not for you.

There is a huge difference between the two types of flying, and if you don't know that now, with two weeks to go, you have a lot of preperation to do for the interview. I doubt you will find the answer here, you just have to think closely about what you want out of life.

Tonks

[Pagwana]

Tonkenna - "There are always more applications than there are places"

If this is the case why is it that there is a shortage of pilots in the RAF. Is it that enough people are selected for training but not enough are good enough and or don't complete the training? Or is it to do with the RAF's trouble with retaining qualified pilots?
Any views would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Tonkenna]

I suppose there are several reasons:

Lots of people apply, but not all get in.
Of those not all pass to get their wings.
Even after getting their wings not all get onto the front line.
Once there, lots leave and the training system can't always cope with the demand to fill slots.

It usually goes in waves, for a few years not enough, then too many.

I guess its the same for many big buisinesses.

Tonks :hmm:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

if with a "couple of weeks" to go you are still asking that question then you may just appear a little transparent at the interview.

good luck

[Waddock Hunt]

With respect (though not too much) the reason you want to join the RAF as a pilot is that it is something you have wanted to do since you were about 8 years old. If it isn't tehn it may not be for you! As someone involved in the training of aircrew I can tell you that we are fairly sick if entrants (be they Graduates or DE's) who can't really be bothered if they pass or not. It should mean everything to you. If you are successful in ALL your training you may well be told to spend 6 months away from home at a time. To live in fairly sh**ty conditions, and may well be shot-at, gassed, bombed or crash your ac for a 'principle' that you may not believe in. If there is any doubt as to whether to go Civvy or Military then there is no doublt - don;t join. If you can't be that fussed - we don't want you!

Sorry to sound brutal there are a few facts of life there that may be worth knowing!!!

[Samuel]

Beautifully put Mr Hunt!

Oh how right you are!

[simon_says]

What a load of prehistoric ****. Commercial flying isn't that different to what the Air Force do on a day to day basis. Your'e not always at war. In fact, with the amount of time off you get it's probabaly easier than flying all sorts of hours commercially. As far as I can see the only real difference is the attitude that comes across, i.e if we dont like you you fail regardless of ability!!
About time the RAF joined the 21st century and started to understand the new generation of young people.:mad:

[Training Risky]

I hope that was a joke post from Simon. Either that or I must presume that you have never set foot on an RAF station and Daddy paid for your ATPL.

"Commercial flying isn't that different to what the Air Force do on a day to day basis" .....

.... I hope you are not refering to the FJ or RW fleet! And even if you just mean the ME fleet then you are still WAY off the mark. The high standard of professionalism of the air transport boys and others in operational theatres is not something I would expect your average shag student at Oxford to be able to cope with. If we are talking about what is expected of a junior officer compared with a random ATPL holder.... then your advice to lancelevin is ****.

"with the amount of time off you get it's probabaly easier than flying all sorts of hours commercially" .....

..... Been anywhere near an ops room recently? Or tried to get leave?

"As far as I can see the only real difference is the attitude that comes across, i.e if we dont like you you fail regardless of ability"....

.... And do you base this opinion on the down to earth advice given by the pro's on this thread? Or were you knocked back by HM Forces for aircrew......?
:eek:

"About time the RAF joined the 21st century and started to understand the new generation of young people.".....

..... You must have had a bad night or something.... we are willing to help anyone to the max who is committed to joining up....and not afraid to re-brief those who display maybe just a little hesitance in committing themselves to a very demanding job.

[roundel]

Lance Levin,

Don't even bother.

I was chopped by HM almost 15yrs ago and am still gutted. It was something I had really,really wanted and even then didn't get through despite all my determination. If you're not sure now how will you feel when you go for a chopride? Ars*d or not? I think we all know the answer.

Ps I now fly freight for a living,earn 70k and dont have a mortgage but know where I'd much rather be. If you want to find me on a day off,I'm spending my (not very hard earned) cash on something that has a slightly higher workload than a bus. Apologies in advance to anyone offended by that but you really can't compare mil to civvy flying. Unless you just want to hours build.

Nuff Said.

[simon_says]

Well that hit the spot TR I guess!! My ATPL was so long ago now that I can't remember who paid for it, certainly not Daddy.
So on a day to day basis what are those Pumas doing flying through the heliroutes or the Chinook landing at Thruxton to visit a car dealer display of Porches? Over to you matey!! Hours to waste I suppose?


;)

[escapee]

Simon Says, do you live in a bubble, do you watch the news. Aside of what is happening in the world at this moment, I have flown in an aircraft in Bosnia, Iraq on ONW and OSW and my Sqn was involved in Afganistan. Even though I personally don't fly over the shooting area if we can help it, (large a/c, HVA and no need but too close for comfort sometimes) there are many that do. They get shot at a lot more than people realise, a low intensity conflict has been going on in N/S Iraq since the end of the Gulf war. When did you last get shot at? Your comments are those of some one with no idea of the reality of the subject they are talking about. Why don't you offer practical advice about being a commercial pilot an area where you should at least have some knowledge.

[simon_says]

Lance, you should be able to form an opinion and make a decision now of what to do. For what it's worth I don't think your initial post deserved such a hostile set of replies so I thought I would stir it up a bit!!;)
Enjoy your flying wherever you do it.

[stellair]

Roundel & S.S :)

Escapee.... I think you should remember the original post. Do you want a f***ing prize for being shot at? Why not moan some more....job satisfaction? You signed the papers! Suck on it.... You have all painted a fairly negative image of a fine institution for the guy. Seems to me £110,000 tax free with a blow job at the yoke is the way to go. Iv'e seen lots of ex RAF guys in the R.H seat, most good blokes but some of the attitudes here leave alot to be desired (be warned though most airlines fly more than ten hours a month as they CAN afford to buy fuel!) Oh and NO I'm not an OASC reject before the S**t flies in, far from it!

[mutleyfour]

This thread really has deterioated into "Handbags at Dawn"!

[Waddock Hunt]

..Without trying to swing my rather tasty Loius Vuiton too far back......

Does anyone know the number of people who have tried to enter Civi Flying world, failed and then decided to go into the military instead???????.. Just curious!?!!?!?!? :p

[propulike]

Stellair Simonthingy

I don't think you'll find anyone on this forum complaining about being shot at (neither will you find anyone who likes it!!). You do find lots who get pi$$ed off when some civvie-luvvie claims his job is just as demanding!

The image that's being painted of the RAF for any new recruit is that you're not going to get 110k a year and a blow-job from a trolleydolley, so your commitment needs to be faultless. Mentioning the unpleasant but true parts of the job are necessary to make a fully informed decision - you won't get piccies of helicopters flying at LL with small arms fire being pointed at them on any of the glossies you can pick up at the careers office!

Stay flying more than 10hours a month in your job that has nothing in common with ours except you have to go up diddly up to start.

[escapee]

Stellair.. my comments were not a gripe just stating that there is a difference between mil and civ flying. It was a response to Simon Says comment on there being little difference between commercial and military flying. Oh and I do more than 10 hrs per month.;)
Lance has edited his post somewhat from the original which might explain why some of the replies seem a bit harsh.

[roundel]

Lancelevin &Stellair,

Hopefully I haven't missed the point but.......

The point I was trying to make is that civvy flying is for the most part really boring. Much of it is pre-organised and regulated to such an extent that it is mind numbing and this is an extremely important thing to remember when choosing a career. You really can't compare it to military flying as they are completely different,both in hardware and role. I would defy anyone to say that a 757 could ever be as demanding as 400kts & 100ft but you have to look at the bigger picture. The RAF guys who are not FJ certainly don't fly in the same way as we do nor is their job anywhere as routine as say a medium sized airline. Kabul isn't quite the same as Krakow and I remember shi***ng myself on a one-off into Sarajevo in 1993 when the military guys were doing it day in and day out.

At the end of the day its not just about money either, although of course it helps (and you probably would get more flying in civvy street but of nowhere near the same quality), the real reason most people join the services is exactly that, it's a service and all it entails.

However if all you've ever wanted to do is fly, then do it. I know who I'd rather be working for,wasn't good enough and thats it,but at least I'm still in the air most days.

Good Luck,whatever you choose.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Well who pi$$ed stellair off? "110k and a blow job at the yoke" is a very mature and contrived point of view isn't it? If its about providing sound advice to the topic starter then that really is worth sh!t. Who is whinging about being shot at? It is a valid veiwpoint and one that needs to be considered if you want to fly military hardware. And who mentioned being an OASC reject..... I am only jealous cos I can't get a blowjob at the stick.

[caspertheghost]

Looks like another good ol' slagging match on pprune!

Lance, I can't claim to be an authority on the civvy world, but I've got to admit I love military flying. 500kts at low level with your mates on your wing, pretty unbeatable. Obviously there are drawbacks, going away from home lots, ops, getting shot at, firemen, but if it's fun flying and an enjoyable lifestyle you're after I don't think you can beat the military.
Friends of mine who went civvy at the same time I started my training are generally on about the same pay,but will soon be earning much more than me. They don't work as hard or get messed around as much, but each one of them would rather be doing what I do (or so they claim!)
It's your call obviously, there are plusses and minuses to each path. It really is up to you. What I would suggest if you have the time is to try and get in touch with a mil sqn somewhere and see if you can get a look around and speak with the pilots. Plenty of people do it and you'll probably get a better answer from them than you will from us on this board!!
All the best, Casper.

[Tonkenna]

simon_says "As far as I can see the only real difference is the attitude that comes across, i.e if we dont like you you fail regardless of ability!! "

Well mate, I think you will find that that is true of any company. BA will not take on the best pilot in the world if they don't think he'll fit in so why should the RAF.

I see that the original post has been changed somewhat, and puts lance in a rather different light. I whish you luck.

The rest of the stuff is great fun though ;)

Tonks :p

PS, Lance, I think you will find that Casper has it about right, though if I am ever at low level doing 500kts in my ac I am about to die!!!!:=

[stellair]

Roundel + the rest

I rarely post in this forum and maybe my comments were sharp but despite the original post changed I see no need for a string of sarcastic, helpless and negative feedback (Dirty Sanchez take note!)

My post, unhelpful as it was, is aimed at those who respond with the "we don't want you" attitude, NO NEED. Military Vs Civil flying as you rightly say can't be compared which is why the guy needs to be offered real facts about both options. (If the thread starter e-mail's me I will be happy to talk through the workings of a modern airline)

I'm of the belief that this country produces the worlds finest pilots at all ends of the scale and we should encourage others to follow in our footsteps. I don't know the chap who started this thread but he was asking professionals advice on possible career moves, I hope he wasn't put off! The publicity regarding RAF guys leaving for airlines which crops up from time to time I feel justifies such a question when deciding which path to follow.

In the day to day job, if you like, flying military hardware (FJ esp I imagine) I appreciate the operation is very demanding but despite the "boredom factor"(thats were the blow job comes in :) of flying a 757 spare a thought for those who know what its like trying to battle against hydraulic, electrical,engine failures or all at once but knowing your responsible for 350 innocent lives plus my crew. It's far from boring then, trust me. I think you mil types do a fantastic job and take nothing away from you if that's your thing, hope this makes my position clear, prob see half of you when I'm grounded in the sand any how, take care out there! :p


tailwinds................................................... ......

[eagerbeaver]

lance, not a good place to ask an opinion really, the minority shouts louder... The RAF aint what it used to be, but it will offer you the best 12 years(at least of your young life) you have to want it, really really want it just to be able to commit to 12 years at such a young age.
I am 23 and waiting for my date to attend OASC, i only really fely ready to join now, i kow i left it late but it feels really good now.

coincidentally daddy paid for my ATPL, so yah boo sucks to anyone who has a problem with that.

good luck lance i will tell u all about whats req'd etc when hopefully i have signed up

[Chris Kebab]

eagerbeaver,

That is a joke,

Right?

[eagerbeaver]

chris kebab,

why would i be joking ? i dont wanna antagonise just know how lance feels is all, give a bit of support.

[Lucifer]

I hope that few of the replies on this forum are typical of those that I know in both the civilian and military worlds, and if you are looking for something of use, stellair and casper are perhaps you best bets.

To presuppose that any military pilot would find it hard to fit into a civilian crew, or that any civilian pilot would be unable to perform the tasks required of a military pilot are quite frankly both uninformed and unhelpful stereotypes that show more of your immaturity than anything else. There are some very good military pilots who do not fit well in a multi-crew environment, though they are in a minority, and equally civilian pilots who could not cut it in the RAF, however blanket views are utter trite. Both are challenging. One is thrilling, the other is never undemanding. Some elements are very similar while others are worlds apart.

The facts are that the training required in both has many common elements, however it is in the use of many common, basic skills that variances arise following further training. Indeed both are the same in being the application of skills you have been taught. Your ability is not judged upon the equipment you fly, and never has been, and to compare an Oxford/Jerez grad to one fresh from Valley is to compare two different products.

The lifestyles are significantly different in many ways, however no commercial pilots are getting laid in the flightdeck. Frankly how both groups behave on the ground among fellow crew and in nightclubs is little different. In mil life, you can choose to live, sleep and breathe flying if you so wish, living in the mess and socialising with flying mates 24/7, rather than a more limited exposure with airlines. You’ve got to ask yourself which lifestyle you want as a whole. We cannot tell you.

Of course others of you want the general public to think our community as a whole is a load of arrogant pricks, then continue. Claiming an individual is not committed enough as he is investigating reality is encouraging ignorance of the worst kind, even if it was left a little late. Of course if you want to waste our maegre budgets on people who later discover it isn’t for them, fine.

eagerbeaver - lance's slant on it wasn't antagonistic to those who do not have the means. Grow up. No one will begrudge you for it so long as you don't rub it in their face.

[stellair]

Eagerbeaver,

I'd worry more about your medical mate! they do still check for a brain ...... right?? :p

Devil Boy,

The BJ was a joke :( ,

[Flap62]

All of these posts are wasted because the initial premise is wrong.
To call civvie airline ops "flying" is a complete misnomer. No matter how you look at it it's systems management. If you think you're the boy because you take the autopilot out at 5000ft on the approach or (can man live at such speeds!) fly a visual approach with the flight directors off - then wake up and smell the coffee. In civvie ops you make one decision that might be operationally significant every 10 mins (and that's being generous!), in a FJ cockpit at the front of an 8-ship you make 20 a minute.
Flying is much more than the simple process of being airborne.

p.s. eagerbeaver - I'd make sure you keep your IR current - I've got a strange feeling you might need it!! I assume that the reason there are so many errors in your post is because your computer does not spell check in idiotese.

[stellair]

AHH yet another...."so you think your the boy" for turning your terrain following radar on then? or hangin off someones wingtip :p Fly a twin piston on single crew IFR, no AP with wx down to minimas and repeat your statement....... BOY :D

[brit bus driver]

Ladies, ladies..........

As mentioned, this really is turning into "virtual handbags"!! Let's not lose sight of the fact that we are all bloody lucky to be aviators. Hands up those who'd rather do battle with the M25 on a daily basis, trying to flog stuff to people who just aren't interested? Come on, there must be one.........

:cool:

On a side note. Spare a thought for the civvie operators now faced with the increased security, and its attendant implications, around UK hubs. At least us mil types expect to get shot at.....

[Biggus]

Flap62

No comment to make on the Airman Aircrew pay review thread? I seem to remember you had lots of comments to make about the worth of Airman Aircrew a few months ago.

And no, I am not Airman Aircrew myself.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Biggus you old stirrer you.........i remeber duelling with Pi@@flaps only a few months back..............good banter as I recall:p

BBD

..........."On a side note. Spare a thought for the civvie operators now faced with the increased security, and its "flight" attendant "blow job" implications, around UK hubs. At least us mil types expect to get shot at " for a f@@k sight less than 100K"....."

excuse my slight alterations to your post:D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Flap62]

Stellair,

Really not going to get involved in a "how high can you pee" contest.

With 1500+hrs single seat fast jet day/night and now RHS long haul 4 engine I really don't think I have to.

Please tell us some more stories of your bravery and skill in a Seneca in the NDB hold though - I'm sure there's a movie in it !

[EESDL]

Oh no! Flying a twin, single handedly.............NDB hold, night, gutsy move.......guess if it all gets a bit tough you could ask for a RAS and head home, put out a mayday perhaps...fuel priority, get the SAR boys(prob mil types) to ferry you home, the Distress cell (mil) to direct you.....try any of these options out in the sand and you'll end up going DOWN, Boy!!
Regards
A pilot, not a systems monitor.

[stellair]

:D

Perhaps I'll put some sweeycorn on the hook next time,,,,,,,,F**K this reel's gettin hot :D

........................Tailwinds

[Wrong Sisters]

Before this thread loses the plot completely my advice to the original poster is join the Military first and get the best training in the world, experience fun but hard graft flying that is extremely hard to match in the civil world; then go civil if you want a bit more predictability. The grass is never always greener and neither form of flying is the "best" as they are both different but how would you know if you didn't try? Go for it and get the best of both worlds!

PS Top tip (if you do go into the Military first) splash out fo a Class One and tuck it under the bed because if you have a problem later in life you CANNOT get an initial Class One that's restricted.

Bloody Hell that last post was far to sensible and boring ... now where were we......

The single pilot, twin piston (manual) Initial IR is probably the hardest IR in aviation. Look at how many fast jet pilots don't get a first time pass.

Flying a Tornado at 300 feet IMC at 480 kts requires far bigger testicles than I posess.

I'd rather the FMS/AP flies a Geneva SID/London Hold/ILS on mimimums than me cos I know it can do it better and I have the extra capacity to whinge about the new job.

So in the end I've tried both and I've enjoyed both. Neither is the "best" and we whinge like mad no matter which we do. Is that because we want the best for each world that we fly in or are pilots just a bunch of whingers? I like to believe it's the former but some posts on PPRuNe lead me to believe it could be sadly the latter. Prove me wrong please chaps?

[Rotate]

;) Before I add my tuppence to this fine ongoing discussion, I would like to request that it doesn't create a backlash of abuse from certain quarters!

Lance, from my perspective, came onto this, a Mil flying forum, to ask for advice about the differences and similarities between Mil and Civ flying!

Now I am sure there are a few of us who can, and some who already have, given our best advice RE: the Mil side of things...

BUT NO MATTER HOW HARD I TRIED I JUST COULDN'T GET ON ONE OF THOSE CIV FORUMS TO THROW MY WEIGHT AROUND REGARDING A JOB THAT I JUST DON'T DO!! :eek:

PS: I thought the conversation was getting a bit stale, bait cast!

[Mobius Trip]

I found my Fin IRET more diff than my twin piston initial IRT. Still wake up in a sweat remembering trying to fly the thing into Leeuwarden on those comedy standby instruments in the back, with the wings in some silly sweep wobbling around in mech mode. I understand that things have got a bit more sensible in the last few years though - i.e. they tell you at least one of the places you'll be going before you get airborne.

My IRTs are very civilised now though, well, only 'slightly unpleasant'.

Mobius T

[Ioan]

Im hoping to try for the RAF later this year, and I was wondering what kind of flying experience is considered the best before joining.
From what I've heard from the airline people, they seem to be divided between gliding and PPL. Gliding means good stick / rudder coordination, whereas PPL requires more money, and therefore demonstrates a greater commitment.
Any thoughts? I went with the gliding initially because I could solo at 16, but I've continued with it because I enjoy it so much. If PPLs are preferred, I could do that this year.

Anyone?

[stellair]

IOAN

Try a Flying scholarship (free 20hrs, also counts towards ppl) if they still do them? then get a uni bursary/sponsorship while flying for a UAS. worked for me :D Too many hours at you local flying club may go against you as bad habbits are quickly developed and hard to break!

[Flap62]

Ioan,

Any flying's good only because it shows commitment. The individual is much more important. Be under no illusions: if 2 people pitch up, one with 200 hrs Cessna, the other with no flying experience - they will go for the one with the better potential.

[EESDL]

That be the one with no flying experience then:-)

[Biggus]

No, no, no - it will be the one whose father is an Air Marshal!!!!

[DummyRun]

If Mr Schumaker (?) was offered better money to drive a black cab in town as opposed to a Ferrari F1 would he take it ?,

Taxi, taxi for Mr DR, leaving now Sir!,

[witchdoctor]

Don't join the RAF if you're heart's not in it. I wanted to fly FJ ever since I first saw an aeroplane (a 747 so don't ask why FJ) and did the UAS thing at Uni and was weel on the way.

Then domestic situation changed unexpectedly and mil career went out of window. Never considered civvy flying as I always saw it as a post-mil flying occupation so spent 10 years trying to convince myself I wanted to do a crap 9-5 kind of job.

Ended up back wanting to fly (also unexpected) and too old for mil, so went for an ATPL (wish daddy had paid) and now without even the crap 9-5 job. Cue violins.

If all you want to do is fly, go civvy but don't expect a job. If you really wanted mil, you wouldn't have to ask. I never did.

[Prof Denzil Dexter]

My 5,000,000 lira worth..

Civvie Flying

Spend £1000's on getting an ATPL. Or get rich parents to fund 509 course. Spend years looking for a job. Or do a 509 course at Oxford and fastrack into an airline with only 350hrs TT (Jeez!!!)

Once you get a job, turn up for work, get PC generated WX, Take off, autopilot in, drink coffee, read the Telegraph, get to fly with miserable captain, get the WX, Autoland, taxi to stand, go to hotel, get pissed with crew, wake up with headache, do it all again..........get paid lots, wear a shiny uniform. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Military Flying

Lots of fun, flying big FO jets, drop iron on people, get to wear shiny white gloves, fly below 500ft legally, play golf a lot, wear a gro-bag all day (not at BZN)

You can always leave after a few years and go down the civvie route afterwards..........

[luke77]

Military for about 12 years - fun flying and mates

Then Civvie - Better bank balance + lifestyle

I did and I would do it the same way again

Good luck