Operational technicality of joyrides

[FlyCumbria]

One thing I'm not too familiar with is the rules and regs for helicopter joyride type operations. I'm a fixed-wing chap really, but there's this guy near me here in the depths of Cumbria who has a small helicopter (Enstrom, I think) and is telling people about the big helicopter he's going to be getting to carry lots of people about in, apparently joyride ops. From what he says, it seems like a Mi-2, but I'm skeptical of that because even I know that you ain't gonna get one of those on an AOC... ;-( So let's assume he's getting something more normal like a JetRanger which I guess every aviator is pretty much aware of. It's very pretty around here, but it is reputedly the wettest valley in England - bit of scene setting...

He's got this site which is approx 150x50 feet with a hangar at one end (recent p.permission as an agricultural store!) and it seems like he intends doing joyride type ops from here. Access to this site is up a track to the side of this 150x50 field, ie the same field he lands in, and cars would have to go the full length of this field to get to a further one to park. Hazard to aviation for a start.

So. Anyone care to comment on any/all of these...?

- what are regs on size of site for these sorts of ops? From my thoughts of glidepath, I assume you heli guys need an approach/takeoff path and that seems limited because of trees on at least two sides of the site

- military fixed wing traffic. Admittedly they don't use our valley much compared with some of the others around here, but that seems like an accident waiting to happen.

- what about land use? I read on another thread here about "curtilage" around a residence, but there's no house here, only the "hangar". Is a different sort of land use needed for commercial ops?

- would CAA have to "OK" a site before used for joyrides? I see from another thread that they do turn up unexpectedly in some circumstances, so are there any avenues for "tipping them off"?? ;-)

- there are houses within 150m of the hangar, so what about the extra noise generated by joyride ops (my knowledge of these from fairs is that they make a lot of noise because they don't have the luxury of spare seconds/minutes to ascend and descend ). These houses are not far away from being overflown at very low level (ie way below 500ft).

- weather is an obvious factor being a wet valley, so what minima would you heli guys fly to for joyrides?

The really sad thing is that because this guy employs quite a few people locally, no-one wants to stand up to him. The parish councillors are just shoulder-shrugging because they think they may get some big quarry lorries "accidentally" knocking their front walls down etc and it's possible money has changed hands.

Get me right, I'm all for aviation, but also for doing things right and safely, neither endangering local residents or the passengers.

[Helo]

I think the British Helicopter Advisory Board website probably has the answers to your questions .....

http://www.bhab.org/

It might take a bit of reading through it all, but check out the "guidelines" section which I think covers what you want.

Maybe Flying Lawyer or someone else can give you their thoughts.

Helo

[Flying Lawyer]

I'm always happy to help when I can, and easily could here, but I'm not the man for 'FlyCumbria'.
When I act professionally, I'm professionally bound to put personal opinions aside and accept a Brief whether or not I'm sympathetic to the client's cause. I agree with the rule, abide by it, and do my best for the client regardless of my own views.
When asked for advice informally/socially, I have a completely free choice whether to help. I'm an aviator and I'm happy to help aviators, but not Nimbies.

Helo invited me to give my thoughts, so I will:

This man is a Nimby looking for ammunition to use against the proposed helicopter operation. Fine, but he can do so without my help.

The local authority doesn't appear to have a problem with the idea, but he's not happy about that, so out come the conspiracy theories: "The really sad thing is that because this guy employs quite a few people locally, no-one wants to stand up to him. The parish councillors are just shoulder-shrugging because they think they may get some big quarry lorries "accidentally" knocking their front walls down etc and it's possible money has changed hands. :rolleyes:

The CAA is perfectly capable of assessing the safety aspects. If the proposed operation wouldn't be safe, then the CAA won't allow it. But, he doesn't seem to be content to just leave it to the CAA.
And, if it goes ahead, he sounds like just the type who'll be watching, trying to spot reasons to report pilots to the CAA, complain to the local council etc etc.

As for: "Get me right, I'm all for aviation, but .......... etc." That's what Nimbies always say. 'I'm all for aviation, but ........ ( Not In My Back Yard.)

Edit
Oh alright, I'll help a bit .........

FlyCumbria
I suspect what you're really concerned about is noise, not safety. If I'm wrong about your motive, I apologise. (Most nimbies I've encountered claim they're concerned about safety.)
If you're genuinely concerned about "doing things right and safely, neither endangering local residents or the passengers" then I can put your mind at rest.
The CAA is extremely safety conscious - you wouldn't believe how safety conscious. The CAA is probably the most safety conscious aviation authority on the planet. Some would say they're obsessive about it to such an extent they see 'safety issues' where none exist.
My advice to you, no charge, is: Relax, let them get on with it.

Now I wonder why I get the feeling you won't be following that advice. :)

FL

[jellycopter]

Well said FL!

I got problems from my NIMBY neighbour about helicopter noise. He didn't approach me directly like a man, even though I'd previously seen him to explain what I was planning to do. Instead he went through the 'avenue ;-)' of the local planning department who sent me an ill-informed snot-a-gram. To their credit however, when they were appraised of a few facts, with some helpful advise from the BHAB web-site and quoting the 28-day rule, they wrote back and basically said 'no problems, crack on'.

I'll reserve my comments on my thoughts of the tone of FlyCumbrias post!

J

[SASless]

Good on ya...Flying Lawyer! Been done in by Nimby's in the past....and it was an EMS operation mind you....didn't like the noise....wonder if it was the moans from the pain or the whine of the tail rotor that bothered them?

[TOT]

FlycCumbria

Considering you are another aviator it sounds to me as if there is more to this post than meets the eye. You have rounded up just about every reason "why not" against this guy from safety to fraud. You say you are a "fixed- wing chap really", however you also seem to be a Enstrom expert, A Mil expert and an AOC expert . You are content to issue this post on "hear say" so I am told.
You say the weather would not be good enough in this "wet valley" , but it sounds good enough for you!!
If I were you I would get a lawyer and prepare to be sued for slander and simultaneously go and check your aeroplane -- there might already be a "quarry lorry" on top of it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :}

[overpitched]

Must be the same all over the world. Seems that one of the most consistent complainers about noise from the Brisbane airport is actually deaf!!! Something about property values I believe

[Helinut]

FL, as usual, hits the nail on the head!

A little statistic which may be useful for such occasions is that (in the UK) helicopter flying is the only significant form of transport that has NEVER caused injury or death to anyone not involved in it.

(Unless someone knows any diifferent, that is).

If you then add into the balance all the people whose lives have been saved by the use of helicopters, helicopters have a unique contribution to the safety and wellbeing of those not involved with them.:)

[Heliport]

FlyCumbria

As a Moderator of this forum I try to hold the balance and, for that reason, never reveal my own opinion in a 'controversial' discussion. Having kept to the rule for such a long time, I've decided I've earned myself the luxury of making an exception just this once.

PPRuNe provides Rotorheads as "A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them."
Well, one of the things which 'affects' us, pilots/operators, professionals/private, helicopter/fixed-wing, is trouble-makers like you: Nimbies. You and your sort are often the bane of our flying lives.
To me, one paragraph of your post sums up perfectly just the sort of person you are, and how you'll behave if you don't get your own way: "Would CAA have to "OK" a site before used for joyrides? I see from another thread that they do turn up unexpectedly in some circumstances, so are there any avenues for "tipping them off"??
That says it all!
Why on earth you thought pilots/operators who contribute to this forum would possibly want to help someone determined to cause trouble for another pilot/operator, "tipping the CAA off" as you put it, is simply beyond my comprehension.

Helicopter pilots appreciate noise can be intrusive, and we do all we can to minimise inconvenience/disturbance to others. We "fly neighborly" as our American colleagues say. The trouble is some people are impossible to please and the tone of your post, particularly your comments about the local councillors, suggests to me you'll be one of them.
As many who've had the misfortune of being troubled by Nimbies can confirm from bitter experience, when Nimbies don't get their own way by legitimate and honest means, they frequently resort to telling lies to the CAA to try to achieve their objectives.
You strike me as that just sort of person. No-one with any integrity would have abused the anonymity this forum provides to make the allegations you've made about the local councillors or the helicopter owner.

Note:
I'm not going to remove your malicious allegations, unless asked to do so by either the councillors or your neighbour. Firstly, I'm confident people will see straight through you. Secondly, if he sees it, your neighbour will be know he's got at least one trouble-maker in the area. Fore-warned or fore-armed.

Heliport
Moderator

[BlenderPilot]

I think "MYOB" would be in order right now?

[The Nr Fairy]

Helinut :

Sorry to disappoint, but there was a 206 in Scotland some years ago which rolled, killing a passenger. Trying to find the AAIB report for you.

[LordGrumpy]

Mind Your Own Business

[Heliport]

Nr F
Helinut said "not involved in it."
Surely passengers are?

(I assume he was referring to FlyC's concern about helicopters flying over houses in the village below 500')

[zalt]

If 'involved' means crew and passengers, apart from road travel the number of fatalities to 3rd parties is relatively insignificant in most modes of transport.

'Relatively' is the key factor in that helicopter transport is relatively insignificant in any of hours/passengers/trips/distance travelled in comparison with the other modes. So Helinut's claim is statiscically weak.

Incidentally would Helinut count HLOs as 'involved'? They are in the global sense but they are very definately 3rd parties to the aircraft and occupants. There have been a few gruesome fatalities on decks...

Having said that I totally agree that helicopters, through SAR, air ambulance and other missions have made 'a unique contribution to the safety and wellbeing of those not involved with them' and that is a message we should sing from the rooftops at every opportunity.

If FlyCumbria is a NIMBY more worried about house prices than safety, then I suspect that most of the replies (apart from Helo's and Helinut's) will have reinforced a determination to fight this Cumbrian operation.

[Vfrpilotpb]

The problem in this world is that some folk or chaps or god damn it even other aviators sometimes get the head stuck firmly up their own orifice, sadly this stinks and it is very sad that a guy comes onto this site to ask Ppruners and Rotorheads to help hang a man for as yet doing nothing, now then if he gets up and running and use's the new Emstrom eight seater to take people low over chummies house then he may have a beef, but until then dear friend just worry about uncle Tony and all his cronies, for ultimately he and his ilk will do more harm to your very secure little world than some budding Freddie Laker!:mad:

[The Nr Fairy]

Heliport / Helinut :

You're right - my misreading and misunderstanding. Apologies for that.

[Heliport]

No problem Nr F.
It was a Saturday evening post, obviously an enjoyable evening. :D

zalt
You could well be right. Anyone sufficiently petty and unpleasant to resort to trying to cause trouble for his neighbour with the CAA because he doesn't like the local council's decision is unlikely to be deterred by what more balanced people say about such underhanded conduct.

I note you're in "Europe". Perhaps you don't know the extent of the problems nimbies cause in the UK.

[Hoverman]

FlyCumbria

Can I ask you something please?

Is your house in the Cumbrian valley your main home, or a weekend/holiday home?

[md 600 driver]

well what a to do

someone posts one time [first post ever] sounds like a nimby
and the whole rotorheads jump up to bite him

has any thought it might even be a wind up ?
who is fly cumbria ?
can we legaly hang him ?
how about
hung from the engine bay of a chinnook
drawn by 4 robbies
quartered by a huey tailrotor
and burnt at the stake by a allison 250 or c47

end. steve

[zalt]

MD600 Driver - Yup I smell a wind-up too! A really sneaky NIMBY would have wanted advice on how to set up an op in Cumbria, in the hope we would have provided helpful warnings on all the problems rather than alienate the potential respondees!

[MaxNg]

Jesus guys!!!!!!!!

Ok you can all stop kicking the poor B**tard now I think he got the message.

FL and all

You might not like the intent of the question and having suffered at the hands of a "NIMBY" I too felt somewhat defensive when I read the post, but like it or not NIMBY's have a role in aviation safety.

We have all read on this forum the battles of concience that fellow aviators have had when faced with knowing that some one or some operator is blatently flouting the reg's, we have all heared of new operations starting up in the local areas who may not have all the right kit in place and yet how many of you will put your hand on your'e heart and say that you have confronted them or quieried it with the regulators,

Not many I bet?

FL
I am sure that in your'e numerous dealings with the CAA that you have developed a healthy respect for them, and whilst they do have a very safety concious regime they have in my experiance on several occasions been weak and toothless on many well known and very dodgy operators, had it not been for the constant and agresive complaints to the CAA from outside sources then these operators would still be in operation and that my learned friend is "NIMBY's" have had a positive contribution to aviation safety.

My grandad (GRHS) had a few words of wisdom and one of those was "be careful that you do not bite the hand that feeds you!"

He also said ( my grandad that is)
"man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day"

Just another point of view

Helmet on









:= := :=

[Heliport]

md600 driver / zalt
"has any thought it might even be a wind up ?"
Yes, but I rejected the idea.

"who is fly cumbria ?"
Don't forget many nimbies are actually aviators themselves. "I'm a fixed-wing chap really"They enjoy their own flying, but it's n.i.m.b.y. to anyone else.
"this guy .............. has a small helicopter (Enstrom, I think)"
How many people not involved in helicopters in some way know one make from another?
"From what he says, it seems like a Mi-2"
Really? I wonder what 'he' said that made it seem like a Mi-2?
How many fixed-wing pilots have even heard of an Mi-2, far less be able to say ' that seems like an Mi-2' from a description?
"even I know that you ain't gonna get one of those on an AOC..."
And how many private pilots know what an AOC is, far less have any idea whether it would be permitted on an AOC?

I am also informed by a regular contributor to Rotorheads that the proposal/application FlyCumbria describes is genuine.
And before zalt or anyone suggests these are just idle comments - when I make idle comments I make it clear they are. These are not.

"who is fly cumbria ?"
Someone involved with helicopters, I repeat in some way, who doesn't want the peace of country cottage disturbed by the sound of helicopters.

[Hoverman]

flungdung
I think you've missed the point. Everyone's got a right to object to any application that affects them. No problem with him or anyone else objecting because of the noise disturbance. That's all fair enough.
But that's not the "reality" here.
FlyCumbria's thinks more neighbours should have objected, but they didn't. He thinks the parish council should have objected, but they didn't.
The 'reality' is that FlyCumbria won't accept that and now wants to try underhanded ways.
Read again where FlyCumbria says he knows the CAA do turn up unexpectedly at pleasure flying sites and wants to know "are there any avenues for "tipping them off"??


PS
I wonder if FlyCumbria will answer the straight question I asked him.

[vorticey]

no piont in repeating the other posts but id like to know what nimbies is slang for? (i understand what it means)

not in my bluddy yard??

[zhishengji751]

From FL's first post:

( Not In My Back Yard.)

(edit: formatting fixed)

[Bellthorpe]

flungdung asks "Do any of you actually live near a helicopter joy flight operation?"

I don't, but the helipad on my property is available for the use of two schools to use as a confined area approach on their navigation exercises.

I'm in a peaceful, quiet rural area; but apart from the lowing of cattle or the pouring of beer I can think of no better sound than that of a helicopter on approach!

[MightyGem]

It's over a week since his original posting. Either his computer's had a terminal crash, he's forgotten the prune web address or he's retired hurt.:D Or he's just too embarrassed to reply.

[nomdeplume]

I agree. Curious chap.
I sent FlyCumbria a private message saying I'd had some experience dealing by open and legitimate means with an application by a helicopter owner in our village, that it had been settled satisfactorily, offering to give him the benefit of our experience and inviting him to email me. FlyCumbria didn't even have the courtesy to reply. Looks like FL read him accurately.