Ad in Flight International 21-27 Jan "JAA Pilots Available"

[Cumulus Granitus]

I saw an ad in Flight a week or so ago, it was advertising 6 graduates out of BAE Systems, Jerez available for their 1st "Commercial" job.

Just wondering, has any of those guys/girls heard anything? Have you all got jobs? I'm thinking of going to Jerez myself.

Hope it works out & good luck

CG

[Tonker Towns]

Considering the time of year and their low inexperience, after they complete an FI course i should imagine they will be ideally qualified and suited to the new season of instructing that is nearly upon us.A grrrrrrrreat first commercial job.

[Dubliner No.1]

Unless these people are holding out for big money, they should apply to the likes of ryanair. They announced today another 22 Aircraft with an option on another 88. Despite what they say have it on good authority, and also know 2 people who got in with the bare minimums of hours and licences. What they say on there websites is not always the case.
On a suspicious note maybe its good advertising for BAe systems? Plenty will see the ad, and if they all got jobs it would look good for them?

[Le-Slat Disagree]

Well, I guess from one horse's mouth - no jokes please!

The response has been interesting. I think that due to the overwhelming number of responses we got, the email server must have broken down!

Hear are the details for those who missed it:

---------------------------------------------------

Six JAA frozen ATPL Pilots
Recently graduated from
BAE Systems Flight Training (Europe)
seeking first commercial placement
Immediate availability
Willing to relocate
CVs and references available
Contact: [email protected]

---------------------------------------------------

Also, we've setup the web site: www.jaapilots.com

So, please feel free to take a look, and drop us an email if you can help. I'm sure the e-mail’s working!!!!

But, the impression I'm getting at the moment, if we had a 737 type rating on the licence, our arms would have been ripped off by now. However, after spending quite a bit on the integrated course its self, I really can't afford a type rating at the moment.

Even the smaller operators are say "come back when you have more experience" which is fine, I can understand that. But where do we get the experience. Ok, some people will say get an instructors rating - another £4-5k and for what? Tootling around in a C152 or PA28 if we're lucky, in the local area, hardly flying and not landing.

We've been trained to fly commercially, I'd be perfectly happy flying for an Air Taxi or something that is classed as Constructive Flying. I know we're bottom of the pile; there are experienced people out there - but not that many. I'm not asking for straight onto the A320 or B757 (although that would be nice!!!), but we are the future pilots and I believe we are a bunch of very good pilots too.

(no intentional plugs for BAE either)

Anyway, that's my penny's worth.

Take it easy fellas, something will happen soon! (who said war?)

Ta Ta

Le-Slat

[Tonker Towns]

Unbeleivable arrogance and ignorance from the previous poster.

I don't "tootal" around doing "unconstructive" instructing and nor do any other flying instructors who fly i might add fly "commercially"

It mearly highlights the total lack of respect for instructing that comes from people who feel they are above it,and who have no idea of the extra skills that are attained by it.

For years the old sytsem demanded new commercial pilots cut their teeth with banner towing and instructing and it worked.

To EXPECT a right hand seat in a $50 million dollar jet job just after qualifying just goes to prove why so many spend year after year with low hours and no job.Would you expect a graduate Doctor to start with brain surgery or in A&E?

Flabagasted

[Artificial Horizon]

Well this is certainly a novel way of trying to pick up the first job and I suppose some credit is due for doing something original. The previous post does highlight big problems with the modern way of training though, people are still been sucked in with the schools line of 'once you are finished with us you are airline pilots who will be flying the big jets'. O.K. some people do get lucky and end up flying jets straight out of flight school, however they are very few and far between.

My main question is 'Where do instructors get such a bad rap?'. I gained my first 1000 hours as an instructor and can honestly say that it improves your experience and flying skills hugely. Time 'tootling' about in the local area is invaluable. Besides at the end of the day if you are in this career because you love the flying you will be willing to do any work that allows you to fly without having to pay for it. If this sort of work doesn't interest you because you want to wear the ray bans and fly the passenger jets then maybe you will have a shock in store when you realise the realities of being a modern day pilot. The money is not great, the hours are pretty crap and you have to outlay for your own training. The reward comes fromt he fact that you love flying and are willing to accept all the bad to get the good.

[clear prop!!!]

Le-Slat..

If your rather novel approach to job finding works (9 out of 10 for the effort by the way), I strongly suggest that you change your arroggant ill-informed attitude towards those who instruct for a living. You will without doubt find many of those on interview panels, either were instructors or have a higher regard for what’s involved in teaching know -it -alls like yourself to fly.

Whilst ‘tootling’ around the local airspace of Jerez, who do you think taught you everything you know about flying…..INSTRUCTORS!!…Guys ‘not exactly flying or landing’ as you put it..guys who spent 5k on an instructors course and went on from there.

You have a lot to learn my friend. More than a couple of hundred hours instruction can teach you about flying, and, perhaps some respect for the abilities and motivation of those who have got you this far would be a lesson worth learning.

Good luck.

[Le-Slat Disagree]

Hi all.

First of all, I'd like to apologise to some people who I may have offended. This was not my intention - nor to say "Hay look at me I've done an integrated course"

My comments were certainly not to undermine the job of an instructor. After all, I would not be where I am today without the high quality training I have received throughout my flying career so far. I will also be relying on future "expertise" in the future.

However, I was perhaps trying to ask "is instructing the only way forward"? I appreciate, there are no silver plates out there, but we've got to try and be noticed.

In answer to some questions, yes, I have researched potential jobs & career ladders through out my entire life in my quest to become a commercial pilot. Along with exposure working in the industry before I started the course.

But, as everyone knows, if September 11th hadn't happened - we may well be in a totally different situation, but I'm not going to stir that nest up either!

However, I do value all your comments. Keep up the hard work, and I may be instructing myself soon.....

Apologies again!

:O

Le-Slat

[G-SPOTs Lost]

My comments were certainly not to undermine the job of an instructor. After all, I would not be where I am today without the high quality training I have received throughout my flying career so far. I will also be relying on future "expertise" in the future

What Career???? :confused:

[Mister Geezer]

An FI course makes you a better pilot in terms of flying accuracy and knowledge. You could do a lot worse than getting an FI(R) on your licence! It may not be the sort of flying that you want to do but what's the big rush to get into the right seat? At least with an FI rating you are keeping current and more importantly having fun!!! ;)

[Tinstaafl]

Le-Slat

You might be "...perfectly happy flying for an Air Taxi or something that..." but you have buckley's of finding an operator who feels the same.

Bit wet-behind-the-ears to be making such decisions on behalf of operators.

You have the bare minimum qualification that grants entry into this occupation. A 'licence to learn', not 'licenced due to knowing everything' - which is how you came across.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Jeezus ... so this is what 18 months in Spain does to you ... I really hope any employers who follow up the advert, also find this thread on pprune so they can see what kind of pilot they're really getting :mad:

Where do they get these attitudes from? I know enough instructors at Jerez to know that they're not the ones filling students' heads with this bollocks. People who train modular have all smelled the coffee by the time they've got their CPLs, and in general they're extremely grateful for any flying they can get until they've got some meaningful experience under their belts.

As for
We've been trained to fly commercially, I'd be perfectly happy flying for an Air Taxi or something that is classed as Constructive Flying
words fail me. Golly gee could it be that instructors also hold COMMERCIAL licences? It's bad enough when you fly the old trial lessons and people ask "so do you want to be a commercial pilot one day then?" :mad:

But to see that coming out the mouths of freshly minted 509 students, that really makes my blood boil ... these guys obviously read pprune, and flight international, you would think that they would have maybe made the connection that flying jobs are as rare as rocking horse sh!t at the moment, and maybe even be grateful for an FI job if it was given them, let alone 'an air taxi or something' else equally degrading :rolleyes:

Good luck with your search anyway mate, I think you'd be best suited to a freight operator though, after all you will need a big cargo door to fit your head through :rolleyes:

[Mister Geezer]

While I agree with the points that have been made in the last few posts I think a few people have maybe overstepped the mark in making their point! I think our friend(s) from Jerez will get the point that is being made and Le-Slat did try and re-phrase his thoughts in his second post! Remember for the same money for an FI rating you could have a stab at the CTC scheme - have you applied there yet? The bank manager might be knocking at your door but any investment for CTC or an FI rating is really a 'means to an end' so to speak. There are a few options open to those with low hours but examine every option very carefully. With the punch up in Iraq looking very likely then getting a foothold into any type of aviation might be a wise move!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well speaking as an ex-Jerez instructor who left just before these boys arrival I think its time to call off the hounds.

Boys - let this be a lesson to you. Never ever belittle any flying job no matter what your experience now or in the future. Even if you appear to do so by means of an idle turn of phrase which people interpret through their own particular filter.

Me, I was ecstatic when someone let me try to be a volunteer instuctor in the Air Cadets. I was over the moon at getting a PPL instructing job straight after getting a CPL. I was swept away when BAe offered me my first salaried flying job. In all I spent a good few years instructing and enjoyed it all - I didn't let the dream of fancy flightdecks detract from the here and now. Thats an important part of a good strategy imho.

Of all the courses I have taken I can honestly say that the hardest was the FI rating course and test. For a variety of reasons I found it really really challenging. You can do nearly every aspect better next time during the training and the test itself is suprisingly stiff. What will get you a Pass on the CPL GFT (prog test 2) will often not past muster on the FI course.

I admire you chaps doing something original. I don't think it'll work but best of luck with it.

Cheers,

WWW

[Le-Slat Disagree]

Honestly! My intention was not to upset people!

I value all the comments that have been made.

I guess the bottom line is, to gain experience, we are probably going to have to spend on a rating, whether thats an Instructor, Type or the CTC option.

Judging from the responses, the former is probably the most realistic.

Feed back is what we need, we do need help and perhaps guidence too. That is what I was trying to do, for all the guys. OK I should have been more careful with my words, as previously stated. But one or two responses have been a little harsh too....

All the best

Le-Slat

[QNH1013]

Wow, I didn't think about advertising in flight when I gaduated. I did the last CAP 509 Couse with BAE Adelaide and as you know, the course has no guarantee of a job afterwards. I do admire you zeal and ideas but as you've found out and I'm sure already have known before, it's still very tough out there to get that first job. However, you have made a sound investment and you have got yourselves an invaluable foundation of training. The Sad truth is that you can't beat experience but there are definitely opportunities out there for fresh graduates. Though it's nice to know that BAE and Oxford and the like to market themselves as have 'groomed' their students for commercial airline entry, that may not be the first job and given the curent aviation climate, do take anything that is offered. You have your whole career ahead of you to make it to the airlines. Good Luck. Do apply to all operators that accept intergrated course graduates, you may be lucky to get that first break in to the airlines sooner than you thought. But that would only be a bonus.

[window-seat]

Ok guys n gals!

Good to see things are calming down! Although we all know the realities of employment within the aviation industry, they do tend to get pushed to the back of ones mind when spending the vast amounts of cash involved (often someone elses'), and during the relatively short period of very intense training involved during an integrated course. After all, employment prospects are there to be worried about once you have that blue book in your back pocket, and anyone who can forcast the short term future of the aviation industry is much better than me!! :D

As for the course of graduates involved in the original thread here, dates were set, initial deposits were paid and the future looked fairly bright just days prior to the events of 911. All continued non-the less, though knowing things would turn for the worst, but you pays your money, and you takes your chance, along with everyone else!

It is not all doom and gloom however, out of the original 7 December graduates, one starts an A320 type rating with a large european airline tomorrow, and one other has been interviewed for a turbo-prop position, (go for it boys)! ;)

For the rest, the search continues, some are looking towards other areas of employment to keep their heads above water (and keep the banks at bay), and all are considering possible and more realistic alternatives to that 'Airline RHS'. Flight instructing is one of those options, and I can assure you all that everyone of us would rather be flying anything (no matter how big or small, under whatever circumstances), rather than sitting behind a desk or flipping burgers.

I can remember my PPL instructors at Welshpool a couple of years back, all complaining at flying 'Spam Cans' around the Welsh hills, shooting off for interviews, tests and Sim rides at every opportunity only to have their hopes dashed!! But eventually, one by one they got a foot on the next step of the ladder and moved on! It is strange to now find myself in the same boat.

I can remember wondering what all the fuss was about, after all, they were being paid (not much i admit) to fly aeroplanes, and to pass on their knowledge! The look of anticipation and fear on their face when they sent students on their first solo's, and the shear joy and relief when that same student returned 10 minutes later safe and well (if a little sweaty)!! :O

I always thought it would be a good place to return as an FI myself but alas, that option has now gone! :( Maybe some of us will become FI rated, but again, no promise of a work exists in any area of aviation! We live and learn, we wait and see.

Thus far however, i'm sure we have no regrets!!!

Now, probably my turn to get slated for something i've said! :D

Good Luck Everyone!

W-S.

[clear prop!!!]

No one will slate you for that window-seat.

If Le-Slat's original posting was as well balanced and well informed things would not have 'heated up'.

Good luck


;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Window seat - try applying to easyJet.... you seem to have followed me around so far.... ;)

WWW

ps I never looked nervous when sending a first solo. I was too busy concentrating on keeping my fingers crossed.

[window-seat]

WWW,

Doing my best mate, I know a few of the 'Easy Boys', but the 'Old Boys Network' dosen't seem to stand for much these days!! :rolleyes:

p.s. can you check out my thread in 'Instructors', I think you may be able to help me!!!

Cheers

W-S. ;)

[VFE]

Blimey - how to get a flaming in two easy steps on PPRuNe!!

As someone who knows these guys personally I feel I must step up and say that I can assure all the flamers out there that each and everyone of them would take a job flying a kite if they thought it would aid their knowledge of flying. Like most folks in their position the idea of instructing was the first idea mooted out by them as far as I recall and this is simply another. Irons in stoves is something newly qualified wannabes can only have too many of is it not? ;)

Le-Slat might have been a bit quick to put fingertip to keyboard on his original post but I think we all know how easy it is for internet bulletin boards to be slightly inadeqate at times in expressing our thoughts and desires. If you don't word things extremely carefully then there will always be folks out their ready to jump on your every word whilst hiding behind that cloak of anonymity........which of course is their right.

Anyway back to the plot......

I'd just like to say top marks to the guys for showing originality and well done on graduating. I hope you all find something soon that quenches the flying bug! Keep chasing up those employers (if I hear anything I'll let you know).

I'm off back to my books before Window-Seat tells me off again!

VFE.

PS: In-joke for 'Vagi96': ..... "Noooooooooooooo, I don't think sooooo!!" ;)