View Full Version : Night Fleet (Citijet revisited)

30th Jan 2003, 20:23
Thought this would have made the BB,

The Night Fleet has formally advertised for applicant's to complete a EMB-110 type rating course. The advertisement is aimed at non-Massey University pilots and offers a ground course and 5 hrs flight training charged at chock to chock for a mere $NZD10,000 (GST incl.). Additional hours are flyable at $1850/hr.
Min. experience to apply was 1000TT incl. 200 multi (I think).

It mentions that it that does not guarantee a job but will put you into a selection pool for it's regular ATO's in the future from which if selected all line training and checking will be at company expense.

1. Sounds a bit like transglobal/Citijet when they started as a freight outfit
2. If aimed at NON-Massey grads then what are the differences for a Massey grad. Probably the 1000TT requirement is waived so there could be 200hr Massey grad co-piloting a night IFR turbine in your skies soon!
3. 5hrs chock to chock!!! How much time will be spent on the ground getting to learn and practice 2-crew checks etc. probably a lot! requiring the applicant to complete additional flying at $1850/hr
4. This company is aligned with Massey Uni which factory produces alot of pilots per year. How realistic is it that a non-Massey pilot will be invited to the "old boys" club for a permanant job with the 1 and only working EMB-110 in the country!!!

IMHO, you would have to be very careful before shelling out big dollars for this scheme, it stinks of Citijet except for the 1000tt requirement. Airwork's SA-227 Metro deal is better than that where for the same price you get a ground course, type rating and 25hrs line flying to get you started. They have heaps of people doing these courses and only a small percentage actually continue to part/full-time flying with Airwork, but atleast there's more than 1 Metro in the country and more than 1 operator of type.

So what does someone else think. Comments invited :D


31st Jan 2003, 23:59
If Massey has anything to do with it STAY AWAY!!! - 1. They rip people off financially, 2. They do not deliver what they promise 3. They do not produce sound pilots.

Luke SkyToddler
1st Feb 2003, 21:09
Yowch ... $10 grand for 5 hours in that battered old ZK-ECM :eek: Even back in the heydays of Rex and Eagle and Cityjet all operating the bandit, that would have been a bit of a gouge ... but now with that being I think the only bandit still operating in NZ, it's absolute foolishness to throw money at it.

Most people who have got 1000 hrs / 200 multi are going to be wise enough to not touch this with a 40 foot pole ... but even if you are a fresh Massey grad and you are going through the painful process of realizing that the real world of aviation is not at all like F.S. and G.H. told you it would be, you dont want to throw good money after bad by going and buying 5 hours (!!) of bandit time ... trust me its going to make a big hole in your wallet and not a blind bit of difference to your CV.

Especially the way Eagle & Origin are recruiting at the moment, anyone who's got 1000 hours and 200 multi is likely to get a phone call in the next few months anyway, it's not the time to be spending money on useless type ratings with dodgy operators. Much better to sit tight, get those ATPLs, snag every second of multi piston you can, stay current and wait for the phone to ring. Even for those who are high time single engine but who haven't got the multi time yet, I reckon there are likely to be multi piston jobs popping up around the country pretty regularly this year, apparently Eagle have phoned another few people this week and all indications are that recruitment should be ongoing for a while.

fly real fast
1st Feb 2003, 22:42
What time did those guys who got the call have?

Talk to you on Monday Sqwark.

Sharfted Groundhog
3rd Feb 2003, 23:45
I think Scabby National is still tied up with it as well, which makes it all even more interesting...... whos doing the training? I can't imagine the insurance company letting any of the Massey instructors with only limited multi-time and no turbine time anywhere near it!

Talk about a rip-off! Lets hope it dies before it's born! All we need is another United......

Blue Line
4th Feb 2003, 06:55
Oh dear is all I can say about this.
Is some one going to run a betting pool on when they cook an engine / minor mishap :}

Kermit 180
4th Feb 2003, 07:08
Massey in the firing line once again! :rolleyes: Blue Line, Ill bet a beer on an engine being cooked within two months from today. Just for something to do.


Herr Kerms

4th Feb 2003, 23:30
Kermit 180

They'll get pretty close to cooking an engine. Hopefully with an experienced Captain onboard they won't do that.

But then saying that I'll raise you your beer for one chocolate fish!!!

See ya :cool:

5th Feb 2003, 21:21
Why do you assume that they'll "cook an engine"??

6th Feb 2003, 06:42
how many massey pilots are in Air NZ?
That is a pretty broard statement. Massey has both good and bad, students instructors as does any outfit.:D

the maori mobster
7th Feb 2003, 00:35
i think you fellas are pretty cool, aye bro.

i think these massey bro's are the choicest. they are trained up by the best in the industry and once i get my cpl i'll be jumping onto the bandit and giving it a good thrasing so i can get me a choice job flying the big jets.

my mates all think the same. ;) ;) nudge nudge

11th Feb 2003, 20:43
Maori Mobster

Are you for real? If you're just completing your CPL then you will need a few more hours and an Instrument Rating before you do the course.

I know Massey tell a bunch of lies but this is pretty far fetched.

12th Feb 2003, 06:56
Kavu !!! has the rarified air of the pressurised cabin affected your judgement.... the mobster of bro origin is obviously trying his best Billy T accent and winding you up eh bro :=

Even Massey aren't stupid enough to let [email protected]#%'n Uncle Bully lose on a bandit with a bare CPL

When you popping in to GS to say hi to us GA plebs ;)


the maori mobster
12th Feb 2003, 08:04
hey sqwark2000 bro

massey instructors are on the cards, straight up. they told me that coming to there school would guarentee me a job when i finally leave. (Wouldn't all you massey grad's agree?)

they said

"massey pilots are hired by the best airlines in the world, once employers know you were taught at massey then the world is your oyster"

so i am forking out the money, with the help of a certain foundation in the news recently, to get me this flying experience. you dig bro!!!!

hey kavu,
listen up bro, all i need is a multi rating, the brothers can also help out there. back off!!!

12th Feb 2003, 20:36
Good Morning everyone.
I do admit to not knowing too much! about Masseys! however the term "the worlds your oyster" rings a bell for me lllllllllllllooooongg time ago. I would tend to say not toomuch straight talk in such a phrase!!!
Good Luck.!!

12th Feb 2003, 20:59
What if any contracts has the Night fleet crowd got? I was in Palmy one day and overheard some guy going on about trying to get DHL from Origin, think he was dreaming, one tonne vs two tonne payload he hasn't got a hope. Then went on about two safire biz jets for contracts at massey. I did hear they had a AA-NP freight run but that wouldn't sustain the whole operation.

13th Feb 2003, 09:12
An unconfirmed rumour has it that they have just been approved use of the IL-76 with re-engined Pratt and Whits..

It's expected in Palmy later this year sometime...

13th Feb 2003, 18:19
Maori Mobster,

Sqwak and Kavu know what they are talking about.

How many Massey instructors do you see in the airlines???
Probably 5% make it thru. Of the last lot of CPL/Multi guys in Palmy, about 3 are still with Massey, 6 have gone elsewhere to do there C-Cats (they finally saw the light and realised no-one would employ them if the had a Massey C-Cat in their books - except for maybe Feilding Aviation) and the rest of the class have given up on flying all together - the real world is TOO HARD for 'em. U walk out of Massey needing around 40 hrs PIC before u can even look at doing your C-Cat (cost of around $6,000). Then u have to be re-trained on how to fly as the stuff u learn at Massey will probably end up killing u.

No matter what your instructors say, you can not walk straight out of Massey with a bare CPL/Multi rating, and less than 300hrs & into a commercial job, let alone a airline. If that were the case, then why is this country satuarted with so many instructors, that would do anything for a job flying 172's on photowork or PA-32's on coastal frieght work etc?

Listen to those that have being around for a while.

They know what they are talking about.

14th Feb 2003, 01:12
Dance with the clouds.
Your statement holds true for nearly all training organisations in NZ. Also there hasn't been any movement until the last 6-9 months and I would guess that instructors all over were starting to wonder where the next job is coming from.
Massey are not better or worse than alot of other organisations out there. Having the callsign Massey and being tied up with Student loans etc first is why I think a lot of the flak comes from. No one gets up set when alpha bravo charlie doesn't know what they are doing or goes a long way downwind. Also at Ardmore they are pretty much all one in the same when it comes to joining the circuit. Mid down wind I bet none would make it back to the runway, not a requirement, but if it can be done I know where I would rather be putting down.

16th Feb 2003, 07:15
Re the original post; There is a saying that I think at this point is quite pertinent: "A fool and his money are soon parted."
I cannot fathom how someone would be foolish enough to shell out this kind of money for such terrible return.
Linking the original post and the divergent posts since (ie massey training looked down upon) I feel that it is the responsibility of the student to do research in the industry (eg GA or part 121 size airlines) as to what form of training is respected and valued. If no one likes a Massey student then I would like to think that the message would get through to anybody who took the time to ask.
If any one came to me and asked what my airline would like to see in an applicant then I would be more than Happy to give them guidance.

the maori mobster
16th Feb 2003, 23:30
hey GAMAN bro

well i am asking you about it "what my airline would like to see in an applicant"

and bro give me the serious truth because i believe massey is the only way to go because look at all the previous pilots that have jobs in the big airlines now!!!

and what airline are you working for then? can me, a ppl just getting my cpl next month, get into your airline?

cheer bro!!!:)

17th Feb 2003, 08:33
:rolleyes: God! give me strength....

the maori mobster
18th Feb 2003, 07:58

well i'm waiting to hear from you fella's what you want in a pilot for your airline?

sqwark2000 - maybe i come out east and say "yeah gidday" to you fella's. show you how to really fly, the massey way.

show me the money:cool: :cool: :cool:

max rate
18th Feb 2003, 18:19
:) Hey cuz! foo bro, those stink guys giving you heaps eh? I'm sure you can fly your big sky waka really well eh, but unlike your bro's in law and other degrees, you have to be the best applicant for the job so you just keep up that hooning around to get more waka time. der der twer bro!

18th Feb 2003, 18:38
Maori mobster,

You're a riot mate, as far as wind-ups go.

How many other PPRuNe alias's do you have...?

the maori mobster
19th Feb 2003, 00:10
to all those fella's and fellis's out there - cool bro

max rate

cheer bro:) so how much waka time do i need to get then? us waka guys are full on eh!

we should met up for a boilup and a tui sometime!!!

masseygrad - what you call me, cheer......

massey is da bomb. place to be, it's the happs. what are you up to now you graduated. you flying the big kahuna's in the sky?

20th Feb 2003, 03:59
"YO" Massey maori monkey mon**&^ !!" , If you'd like to do some Human Factors research there is plenty of wreckage from fatil Massey accidents /incidents and reports available to read on the TAIC or caa vector records. that might tell you something about your fello bro's.
and no! they havent been around that long!
'mah see twooo nae nae is teimporaiorly uhn sertain of poh- sitsion' (meanwhile holding up 3 airliners!) :rolleyes:

'massey 299 report to the tower upon landing!.
enough said!.
good luck with ya turbo prop waka!. ;)
cher bo!

SKC 60 km vis VRB "wellingtoon controol mah see 123 weee turrn dew weeedaaaar !???

the maori mobster
20th Feb 2003, 07:15

chill bro, why you want to burn the brother?

not many massey bros are up to speed as you once were. just chill and have a peaceful mind to settle those nerves.

you had to start somewhere as well, didn't you?

22nd Feb 2003, 21:04
The Maori Mobster

You do have a good point there. Everybody has to learn somewhere. Apart from that everything else is a waste of time. Very good windup by someone in the Massey high circle.

Wish you well in your future. If you have one!!!

Barbers Pole
22nd Feb 2003, 21:35
If you've got 1000TT, 200 mutli and access to $10k I'd make sure I was updating regularly with the Eagle, orgin, etc and buy myself a steak dinner, wash it down with a old one and buy a answer phone and be patient!!

I sure as [email protected]#K wouldn't be WASTING my borrowed dollars on a bandit rating, $1850 hr sounds like the charter rate!!
Eagle used to only bond a couple of grand for a 5hr rating,ground course,etc. $10k is extortion!


24th Feb 2003, 00:12
Dances with Clouds, I finished at Massey with 225 TT and walked straight into an RPT operation a year and a half ago, flying turboprops with the company paying for my type rating. Im getting really sick of all this massey bashing - the degree is all good and really made stepping up into a turboprop a breeze - as far as "cooking engines", etc goes - operating a turbine engine, although different, is not exactly rocket science.

24th Feb 2003, 00:42
I dont know what all the fuss is about with Massey. The BAv covers ground subjects in far greater depth than the ASL syllabus taught at aeroclubs, and has a huge focus on CRM. Thats why it takes 3 years and costs more than popping down to the local aeroclub.

The instruction I received was of a very high standard. Combined with the CRM focus of the course I felt as prepared as I could be for my first multicrew position.

So speaking of Human Factors, perhaps the poster who mentioned 'doing some research on Human Factors' might want to check out the difference between aeroclub multichoice pop quizzes and university level Aviation Psychology, Aerodynamics and Performance taught by academically recognised experts in their field. Making unsubstantiated claims about accident rates in one organisation vs another is completely pointless - I wonder what axe you have to grind? :rolleyes: There are many ways to skin a cat and doing the hard yards through flight training at Massey is one of the options.

It is the higher level of academic training which got me my first job, which was with an overseas airline preferring degreed candidates and no it wasnt the Garuda deal.

Thanks massey, I love my turbines.

Borneo Wild Man
26th Feb 2003, 08:05
Im not sure Performance is taught by such persons ,but I have flown and known several Massey grads who were just as good as operators as those from the aeroclubs,specificaly better than Ardmore Flying School.