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Dewdrop
29th Jan 2003, 13:11
I came into EGNS last night on a Beech 1900 operated by Euromanx. I would just like to say well done boy's, with a 30+ knot, 30 degree (gusting) cross wind it was one hell of a landing.

Crash_and_Burn
29th Jan 2003, 15:59
Some of the boys coming into LHR this morning were earning thier wages as well. Most of them had thier noses pointed at Oxford instead of Windsor to keep them lined up!

A couple of the 319s I saw looked like rides at Disneyland!

Oh to be flying today!

C&B

Kwasi_Mensa
29th Jan 2003, 16:16
Not too many moons ago experienced a 8/9 Beaufort (45+ kn) landing on LHR in a BA 737. A kid seating behind me totally freaked out, kicking in my back seat, parents on the verge of a break down literally hitting the kid to be quiet. The purser came down, sat beside him and got the kids and parents reasonably quiet while in the meantime the pilot made a greaser of a landing (don't know under which angle ;) ). The pax applauded and for the first (and only) time in my life I joined them, extremely well display of workmanship by the whole BA crew!

Bigscotdaddy
29th Jan 2003, 17:12
If you want to 'enjoy' windy landings, look no further than Loganair.
You could have 'enjoyed' regular landings throughout Scotland over the last few days in winds of 45+ knots with cross-winds of up to 35 knots in Islay, Stornoway, Kirkwall, Sumburgh etc. - mostly at night, often in near minima conditions!
Just a normal winter week in Scotland!

Jetset320
29th Jan 2003, 19:30
Last month I landed at night in Cologne with winds 55 knots gusting 65. It was one hell of a roller coaster. Luckily it was in VMC and relatively down the runway. In the 15 mins after my landing 3 other A/C had to go around due windshear, back into the turbulence and heavy rain showers all around.......later, during transit, it rained horizonal........have you ever seen that??!!

I was not terribly comfortable with the approach, but it was my first in such conditions so I did not really know what to expect.

My question is.......shouldn't there be maximum limits (from which ever angle), and not just limits which will tear off aircarft doors. I believe this aspect of flying is rather a 'cowboy' area.

Rongotai
29th Jan 2003, 20:30
All of the above descriptions, admirable as they are, sound to me like 'business as usual' at Wellington, New Zealand

Rumbo de Pista
29th Jan 2003, 22:15
Ah, the old 'greaser off a bumpy approach' story. Why?

Well, in strong and gusty winds, companies (and manufacturers) require pilots to add speed increments, which are, IMHO, often pointless. the result is usually a fast approach, problems getting thespeed off and the pitch attitude right for touchdown, and thus a deep, fast, high-energy landing.

Alternatively, why not use the normal approach speed and have a good, safe, on-speed, on-the-marks, touchdown? With Autothrottle in, this is allowed. I have yet to meet an autothrottle which genuinely does a better job than do when I'm concentrating...

Whoopedo_STALL
29th Jan 2003, 22:50
Hi,

I work in an office under the manchester airport flight path (cheadle heath) and saw the planes coming in for a landing when it was really windy on tuesday.

I was wondering do they land manually when its gusting like that or automatic.

It made me glad i was on the ground watching them planes bouncing around.

Ive never been in a plane when its really windy. Whats it like?? Is it similar to bad turbulance? as i was freaked out by turbulence once over france?

tia

jon.

DamienB
29th Jan 2003, 23:16
This was 'interesting' to watch (Egypt Air Cargo A300, Stansted, yesterday):

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/steady1.jpg
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/steady2.jpg
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/steady3.jpg

MANAGP
30th Jan 2003, 11:24
Whoopedo_STALL

As one of the intrepid of Tuesday night, I can assure you it was a manual landing. The aircraft I fly (Airbus A321) has autoland limits of 30 kts Headwind, 20 kts Crosswind, and 10 kts Tailwind. The wind at Manchester was 310/30G39 when I landed, so well outside Autoland Limits, and what's more it was great fun!

Girt_bar
30th Jan 2003, 11:58
Have to agree Rongatai. WN is one hell of a ride. Add to that the lack of runway. There is a great website (NZ based i think) which has a very good video comprising a number of landings at Wellington on a bad day

ILS27LEFT
30th Jan 2003, 17:19
18 Hour TAF
EGLL 300419Z 301206 34018G32KT 9999 SCT030 TEMPO 1206 5000 -SHSN BKN030CB
PROB40 TEMPO 1406 2000 SHSN BKN014 BKN020CB TEMPO 1806 34017KT=
9 Hour TAF
EGLL 301505Z 301601 35023G35KT 9999 SCT025 BECMG 1620 34015G25KT PROB40
TEMPO 1620 1500 SHSN BKN010CB PROB30 TEMPO 2001 5000 -SHSN BKN010=
METAR
EGLL 301520Z 34027G41KT 3000 -SHSN SCT020 BKN038 01/M02 Q1007 TEMPO 1500
SHSN BKN010=
EGLL 301550Z 34020KT 0600 R27L/0900 R27R/0800 SN VV/// M00/M00 Q1008 BECMG
4000 -SHSN BKN010=

A few go around at LHR today. Any other news or update please post here. Thanks.

Bigscotdaddy
30th Jan 2003, 17:29
Rumba

I think you'll probably find that the main reason for additional speed increments on the approach in strong winds has more to do with the liklihood of windshear being encountered.

But you knew that anyway.:D

ILS27LEFT
30th Jan 2003, 19:38
METAR
EGLL 301820Z 35020KT 5000 -SN SCT012 BKN025 OVC050 00/M00 Q1012 RESN NOSIG
99520194 99210095=
Breaking is good.

wet snow, extent 11% to 25%, depth 1mm
wet, extent 10% or less, depth less than 1mm, braking action: good

more GA just now...1942..due to weather/slow ops

EGLL 301850Z 34020KT 9999 FEW012 SCT025 BKN050 00/M02 Q1012 NOSIG 99520194
99210095=

EGLL: Issued on the 30th at 18:50 UTC
wind 340 degrees, 20 knots
visibility 10km or more
few clouds at 1200 feet
scattered cloud at 2500 feet
broken cloud at 5000 feet
temperature 0, dew point -2 (degrees C)
QNH = 1012 mb
no significant change
(as before), wet snow, extent 11% to 25%, depth 1mm, ?
(as before), wet, extent 10% or less, depth less than 1mm, braking action: good

Deep Float
30th Jan 2003, 19:42
From our office on the 9th floor in between runways 27L and R on about 1.5 miles final, we have a great view on landing traffic. It became interesting when the vis dropped to below 1000m in SHSN with W/V 35020G35. After reported heavy turbulence, a Swiss A321 went around and reported rotor action, causing a 70-75 degrees bank angle at 400' AGL on short final for 27L. A while later, he performed another go-around. After asking for his intentions, he requested another approach "with a different configuration". This time it was to 27R and he landed.
My question is that isn't it standard practise to divert after two go-arounds? I may of course be wrong, but as a passenger, I would get pretty nervous when a third approach to the same airport is commenced (and I fly IR myself, albeit not for money, unfortunately). I guess I've read too many accident reports involving a third approach.

NigelOnDraft
30th Jan 2003, 19:47
I'll await to see if he really got to 75 degrees of bank!

<<My question is that isn't it standard practise to divert after two go-arounds?>>
With us it is "advised", or "consideration should be given" - largely due potential distress to passengers. A 3rd approach should really only be done if there is good reason to believe that the 3rd will succeed i.e. something has changed / is being done differently.

NoD

ILS27LEFT
30th Jan 2003, 20:23
EGLL 301920Z 34020G31KT 9999 FEW012 SCT050 M00/M03 Q1012 NOSIG=

slippery runway 27R no sig

Momo
30th Jan 2003, 21:16
Reminds me of how a friend described the high winds at Galway airport a few years ago. (When are there not high winds there, you might ask...)

According to him "It was great! We didn't even taxi to the runway. They just cut the ropes, and up we went!" (EI Saab 340)

ILS27LEFT
30th Jan 2003, 21:24
Breaking action reported as nil at block 10.
Otherwise poor or very poor.

A few deciding for GA just now 2120 GMT.
LHR 27R EGLL

Budgie69
31st Jan 2003, 10:19
Write out 17 times..

Breaking.. breaking.......broken
Braking..braking............stop

Fil
31st Jan 2003, 10:47
Love to know more about the A321 at 70 degrees bank at 400 ft.


We came in 10 mins later in an A319 and both Tower and Director were restating what had happened but to be honest the two of us kept wondering was it really 70 degrees at 400ft?

Anyone got any more info?

Well done to them for such a recovery.

...but I do remember seeing the fire trucks waiting by the runway edges.

Point Seven
31st Jan 2003, 11:01
I was doing Deps when the Swiss made his first and second attempts to land (stayed in the tower for the third to, just for mad). He did get a lot of rotor action at about four hundred feet, probably between forty and fifty degrees. However, he also got a bit of sink at the same time so it may have seemed worse from where he was!!

I was at work all yesterday evening and i've got to say, i know ATC bitches about pilots all the time, but yesterday was a good example of what you boys and girls CAN do and how there are times you earn your pennies and we only watch (and laugh/panic/cry...). There was great patience (mostly) to the GMP controllers and the poor SAS pilot who did an app to 27L after the de alternation was the bravest pilot i've ever seen (wind was 340 25 gust 35 - coming right off the hangers). He did well to get one set of gear down then back in the air!!

Once again, thanks guys.

scroggs
31st Jan 2003, 11:41
Yes - I wondered about that at the time! I was driving the VS24 just behind him leaving the hold when he was offered 27L so a braking action check could be carried out on 27R. We also thought he was brave! And we were very glad that you didn't ask us - you might not have liked the reply!

Max Angle
31st Jan 2003, 11:56
Managed to be on a day off yesterday, there is a god after all. It's interesting now that the big BA hangar to the south of the complex has gone that 27L approaches in a stiff northerly are better than 27R in a strong southerly which can only have been made worse by the new Virgin hangar. Landed on 27L the day before (Wed) and after being suprised that it was in use was then suprised by how little trouble it was. That said, home felt like the place to be yesterday.

VFE
31st Jan 2003, 14:09
Bearing in mind the sort of everyday aviation incident that can make the headlines in the news these days I wonder why no reporter has picked up on 70 deg AOB at 400FT! Oh, yes I do.....it would probably take them 10 minutes to explain to Joe Public exactly why it was such a serious happening.

Obviously not as headline worthy as a go around due to traffic on runway......can't slip in the all important "near miss" soundbite can they? ;)

Was it really as severe as 70 deg though? Sounds abit OTT IMVHO.

VFE.

bolts
31st Jan 2003, 14:32
I was flying the Vir 901 which "landed" yesterday just before 1530. Brilliant timing, a blizzard had just arrived to add to the very strong crosswind from the north!
About 12 hours earlier I had briefef the other pilots that we would obviously be landing on the northerly, ie 27R, due to the totally predictable turbulance from the hangars with a northerly wind. On arrival at the hold at LAM I couldn't believe we were using 27L and therefore requested 27R, which was refused. Just before commencing the approach we were informed that there was severe turbulance and rotor streaming on finals - there's a surprise! Amazingly we didn't have to go around since I must confess I was expecting to have to do so but nevertheless a very uncomfortable approach. When will those in power realise that with strong cross winds at Heathrow the runway should be chosen appropriately to minimise turbulance, or worse, from the hangars? - No criticism intended of the controllers who seemed to be doing an admiral job in the conditions. (And yes I did file an ASR to highlight this recurring problem!)

NigelOnDraft
31st Jan 2003, 14:39
bolts...

This was supposed to have been "sorted" after the BA jumbo excursion a year or 2 ago - albeit the other way around.

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/may02/gbdxp.htm

<<Recommendation 2002-07
It was recommended to Heathrow Airport Limited and to Heathrow Air Traffic Control that Runway 27 Left should be the nominated landing runway from the commencement of the promulgation of Runway 23 (three hours prior to start of Runway 23 operations). This will serve to minimise the use of Runway 27 Right during periods of strong south-westerly winds.

Response to safety recommendation 2002-07
In March and April 2002 respectively, Heathrow Air Traffic Control and Heathrow Airport Limited notified the AAIB that they would accept the safety recommendation.>>

Sounds like commonsense is not allowed to apply and reverse this latter idea when the wind is N - NW!

NoD

Kwasi_Mensa
31st Jan 2003, 15:03
and the poor SAS pilot who did an app to 27L after the de alternation was the bravest pilot i've ever seen (wind was 340 25 gust 35 - coming right off the hangers). He did well to get one set of gear down then back in the air!!

Swedish drivers are always considered to be the best (rally) drivers in snow/icy conditions ;)

ILS27LEFT
31st Jan 2003, 16:03
so why they didn't switch to runway 23?
I heard the wind was even 340-350 gusting 38 or more...wasn't this sufficient to switch to runway 23 or it is just "the business must go on"??

Please reply here. Thanks.

Go-arounder
31st Jan 2003, 16:23
Using runway 23 would have given nearly a 30kt tailwind yesterday? Since they canít use 05 the 27ís were the closest into wind!

ILS27LEFT
31st Jan 2003, 16:46
thanks for your reply
so with a northerly wind like yesterday what are the options for LHR? Just 27 R or L...nothing else.
Runway 5 is not a runway, but only 23 then.
Why 5 cannot be used? Is it something could be done in the future or just impossible because of lights, aids,buildings etc?
...so I understand not many options for LHR with a strong 360 wind: 27 only!

Thanks/

Does anybody know what the wind limits are for diverting all inbound LHR traffic, let's say a Northerly wind of...dir and speed pls/

I know it might depend on Aircraft Type too but is there a general standard, some sort of wind regulations for LHR that would affect all drivers?

Thank you.

P.S. I would expect for example if wind 360, gusting over 40K, then airport should be closed, if this runway 5 cannot be used for landing as said by others here!
Does this make sense?
Thanks.

scroggs
31st Jan 2003, 22:51
ILS27LEFT this is really a subject for the 'Questions' forum, but I'll try and give you a brief answer. I'm sure various ATC chappies can elaborate if necessary.

The traffic levels at Heathrow are normally dependent on the parallel runways both operating. The use of 23 for landing traffic slows the operation down hugely. There is limited aircraft space on the ground, and those waiting in the air have limited endurance. Anything that slows down the system is A Bad Thing.

The winds yesterday favoured the 27s. 23 was never an option with winds from 330-350. The crosswind was never excessive, but it was very gusty at times. This does cause discomfort, and can produce windshear effects which may require some considerable skill to overcome (see the SAS tale above), but it's very rarely that the problems become so bad that closing the airfield would be considered. Most aircraft can take crosswinds of 30kts or more.

I don't believe that runway 05 is available at all.

BLK 33
31st Jan 2003, 23:56
Scroggs is correct - 05 de-commissioned years ago when the Whiskey stands were built - which is roughly where it's threshold was - you'd have to weave through the stand floodlighting now.

ILS27LEFT
31st Jan 2003, 23:56
Dear Scroggs,
Thanks a lot for your answer.
If any ATC chappies would like to elaborate this further would be more than welcome anyway.

Thanks a lot.
Ciao!

DrKaos
2nd Feb 2003, 11:38
Hey guys,

A big thank you goes out to the BA driver who passed the very kind comment of "Doing a great job" to me on EGLL FIN (120.4) at about 1100. Although the weather wasn't as bad as the afternoon, a wind report from a Midland Airbus reported 355/65 at 4000'. Accurate tight spacing wasn't the issue, just trying to stop guys on base from the north from cleaning up stuff establishing from the south (who seemed to be going backwards sometimes). There were some bizarre speed instructions I know, but I'll try anything once!

Thank you again.


;)