UK Apache to deploy.

[Used Ink]

I have it on good authority that the Apache has flown over 1000 hrs in training and there are 20+ QHI's trained/qualified on type.

Now then, what a good opportunity to prove both man and machine with the war looming in the gulf.

The aircraft are in service, the groundcrew are trained, there are enough qualified aircrew (albeit QHI's) to man at least a flight and the tactics will be spot on (QHI's again).

This is the ideal opportunity to prove to the other services that we can deal with the beast. (or answer b, lets just not go!)

I'm suprised the papers haven't picked this one up!

[BlueWolf]

This is a personal opinion.

I'm way too rusty now on current types for it to be classed as a proper informed one, and I'm more than happy to be corrected; but.....

IMHO, the Apache is a white elephant.

It's too expensively high-tech, too fragile, too unproven and too costly to actually risk it in combat.

I know it can't be proven without going into battle, but you have to admit, it is very expensive, and very fragile.

If I may further humbly suggest.....send the AH-64 back to the Yanks, and swap them for some more Chinooks. Then, buy some AH-1Zs instead?

Just a thought.

[solotk]

AH-1W/Z is the way to go....

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/content/companyInfo/pressReleases/PR__020328_0930.html

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/products/MilitaryHelicopters/ah1w/

Hell they must be good, after all, the other team has them in depth :(

[rivetjoint]

Can the Apache fire its load yet without clogging up its tail rotor?

[A/Tpr Cooper]

Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?
You appear to have a keen disliking for QHI's, you are having a pop, is it that you've had a bad 6 monthly recently, or maybe you've been turned down for a course. I remember a few years ago an old and bold Lynx pilot who had a dislike for QHI's, he got out of the Army slating every last one of 'em, the thing is he got back in to become a QHI!!
You are also digging at the AH, again have you been knocked back there as well.
It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself and direct your energy into areas which you have some impact, though I can only wonder what that might be. The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es.

[fenestronuk]

Agree with you A/Tpr Cooper, although I am unsure what the A in A/Tpr stands for.

Blue Wolf, the AAC has wangled the best AH on the market and you want to trade it in for some modified Huey. Jeez the AAC's biggest enemy isn't us (RAF) its the AAC.

We had a superb AH presentation up here (Shawbury) last week from one of the QHI's being abused above. It was excellent and he appeared to know exactly what he was talking about and fielded some testing questions without batting an eyelid.

The RAF won't have to fight to get AH (and we do want it) because you are going to end up giving it to us on a plate if you don't follow the advice from A/Tpr Cooper. You should be renamed Cry Wolf not Blue Wolf.

[BlueWolf]

fenestronuk, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Well spotted.

The Cobra is proven. The Apache is too expensive and too delicate to ever be proven, IMHO.

We know it works fine against civilians and the lightly armed (Panama, Gaza etc), and where AA capability has been taken out already (DS1).

But when the enemy is capable of hitting back - for example, the Serbs - the sheer cost of this massively advanced, awe-inspiring piece of technological wizardry is simply far too great to risk exposing potential weaknesses in its survivability.

By all means, take it to war. If the Defence budget allows you to give it a crack, and the thing manages to destroy some targets instead of itself, and it proves of value in the face of danger....I mean this quite seriously and genuinely, the sauce bottle is poised above my slice of humble pie.

I love the machine, I really do, and I honestly wish you the best. I want it to work. I just happen to think that the Cobra is a much safer bet, and far better value for money.

I have nothing to do with the AAC, by the way.

Good luck.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

It can't go anyway as there are only QHI's currently qual'd on type............................and as we all know those who can do and those who can't...........instruct:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[mutleyfour]

Here we go again.....

used Ink

Its too early in the programme....good grief..why don't we ask if Typhoon will be making an appearance?

Stop trying to feed the press with mumbo jumbo, as I'm sure they are not V interested.

Blah Blah Blah

[ORAC]

Too delicate?

In Shah-e-Kot, Apaches Save the Day

The soldier's weather-beaten face was streaked with tears of gratitude. Just days earlier, separated from his buddies and pinned down by intense fire from al-Qaida soldiers in the ridgelines around the Shah-e-Kot valley, he thought he was going to die. Then, like fire-spitting avenging angels, Apache attack helicopters sliced through the thin mountain air pouring rocket and chain-gun fire on his would-be killers.

"We came in and took the fire away from him," said Capt. Bill Ryan, the commander of those Apaches. He said it matter-of-factly, as if there were nothing remarkable about piloting a helicopter through hails of bullets and rocket-propelled grenades to save a man's life.

Now safely back at Bagram Air Base, that soldier had come to thank his deliverers.

As Operation Anaconda wound down, a string of well-wishers stopped by to pay homage to the dozen or so Apache pilots who had kept the al-Qaida troops at bay. Not every visitor broke into tears. But all echoed the sentiments of Lt. Col. "Chip" Preysler, commander of 2nd Battalion, 187th Infantry Regiment. Preysler's battalion was one of two that flew into the teeth of entrenched al-Qaida positions March 2, the first day of the operation. Their very lives depended on Ryan's seven Apaches for close air support.

When he came out of the battle nine days later, Preysler immediately sought out Ryan. With a smile on his face and his hands spread wide, he said, "You guys have huge balls."

The Apache exploits on this first day of the battle of Shah-e-Kot have done much to bolster the reputation of an aircraft that saw its battlefield role called onto question after its role in Albania in 1999. In that bleak period in the helicopter's history, 24 Apaches were sent to Task Force Hawk for use in the war against Yugoslavia. But the choppers were held back from combat after two crashed and two pilots died during mission rehearsals. The Apache community complained that ignorant journalists and casualty-averse Pentagon officials had unfairly turned their beloved killing machine into a scapegoat.

Now, three years later, the contrast could not be starker. The Apache drivers are being lauded as heroes, and their helicopter is receiving what to many pilots is praise long overdue.

With al-Qaida fighters so close to U.S. troops that close air support from "fast mover" jets was often out of the question, the Apaches became the only fire support available to ground commanders. In the crucial hours of that first day, when the carefully scripted battle plans had been rendered irrelevant and the outcome hung in the balance, Apaches saved the day.

"The weapon that changed the face of the battle for us was the Apache," said Col. Frank Wiercinski, commander of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)'s 3rd Brigade and in charge of all conventional U.S. troops in the battle.

"I was just so impressed by its capability," he said. "I had never seen the Apache in combat before, though I've always trained with it. I am a firm believer right now that a brigade combat team commander needs his Apache battalion in an air assault division - its ability to protect us en route, its ability to set the conditions on the landing zones and then its close combat attack capability to take out fires. Artillery is a wonderful asset, but you need an observer, you need a sensor, and then you've got the artillery [tube] as the shooter. An Apache can do all of that, and it's always moving."

On station in the valley from dawn on the battle's first day, the Apaches flew again and again through withering small arms, heavy machine-gun and rocket-propelled grenade fire to provide fire support to the beleaguered infantry troops.

Five Apaches were present at the start of the battle, a sixth arrived later that morning and a seventh flew up from Kandahar to join the fight that afternoon. None of the helicopters was shot down, but four were so badly damaged they were knocked out of the fight. The fire the Apaches braved was so intense that when the day was over, 27 of the 28 rotor blades among the seven helicopters sported bullet holes, said Lt. Col. James M. Marye, the commander of the 7th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment.

Marye's aviation task force included the Apaches of Ryan's A Company, 3rd Battalion, 101st Aviation.

Beneath the cold numbers are tales of heroism and extraordinary achievement. None are more dramatic than the story of Chief Warrant Officer 4 Jim Hardy.

At about 6:45 a.m., an RPG exploded under the nose of Hardy's Apache, sending shrapnel slicing through the helicopter's innards.

"I looked up and there was a black puff of smoke, like World War II flak," said Chief Warrant Officer 2 John Hamilton, who was flying nearby.

"There was major damage to that aircraft," Ryan said. "They had lost the weapons systems and the target-acquisition systems."

Despite the fact that Hardy's Apache was now essentially unarmed, he stayed on station. He later told Hamilton that his plan was to fly up the valley and draw fire, allowing the other Apaches to engage enemy gunners once they had revealed themselves.

About 10 minutes after an RPG struck Hardy's aircraft, another hit the Apache piloted by Chief Warrant Officer 3 Keith Hurley, smashing into the left Hellfire missile launcher. "The RPG struck me on the left, rocked the aircraft, and a microsecond after that, a bullet came through the cockpit," Hurley said. By the end of the day there were 13 bullet holes in Hurley's aircraft.

Lights immediately started flashing on Hurley's control panel, warning him that he was hemorrhaging oil. Hardy, one of the company's most experienced pilots, realized Hurley was in trouble, and got on the radio.

As Hurley recalls it, Hardy told him, "I've got to go back to the [Forward Arming and Refueling Point], fall in trail and follow me, and we've got to go quick."

The two wounded Apaches headed for the FARP, a way station for the helicopters roughly halfway between the valley and their temporary base in Bagram, north of Kabul. They didn't make it very far. About a mile west of "the Whale," the humpbacked ridgeline that marked the western edge of the valley, more lights came on in Hurley's cockpit, including one that told him he had no fluid left in his transmission.

"I called off the lights to Mr. Hardy and he said, 'You've got to land, you've got to land now,' " Hurley said.

The two landed in a dried-up riverbed, within range of the al-Qaida positions. With bullets flying around him, Hardy, who Hurley described as "the unit maintenance god," shut the helicopters down and went to work on Hurley's aircraft.

"He did sort of a triage of the aircraft, examining it like a doctor," Hurley said.

Hardy took the three one-quart oil cans that each helicopter carried as spares and poured all six quarts into Hurley's [transmission]. Then he told Hurley they were going to swap helicopters and fly back to the FARP.

"He told me, 'Don't dick around, when I get it started, I'm going,' " Hurley said. Hardy was drawing on his deep knowledge of the Apache to take a calculated risk.

With Hurley's chopper leaking fluid like a sieve, he knew the six quarts of oil he had just poured in would not last long. But he also knew that the Apache's [transmission] was supposed to last 30 minutes without oil before seizing up.

Hardy was gambling that he could nurse Hurley's Apache 50 miles to the FARP in less than half an hour. The alternative was to strap two of the four pilots onto the side of Hardy's helicopter, leaving Hurley's Apache behind as a dead loss. Hardy's gamble paid off. Twenty-six minutes after taking off under fire from the riverbed, the two damaged Apaches landed safely at the FARP. Hardy's colleagues were in awe.

"There are not a lot of folks out there who would have taken that aircraft off the ground," Ryan said. "It was an incredible action by Mr. Hardy."

Hamilton said: "He's a hero, no doubt about it."

Marye recommended Hardy for a Distinguished Flying Cross. He also recommended Ryan, who continued flying despite being nicked on the chin by a bullet, for the Silver Star and several other pilots for the Air Medal with "V" device.

(source: Army Times, 03-25-02)

[MightyGem]

And what about Desert Storm. US Army Apaches flew the equivalent of Italy to UK to take out Iraqi radar sites in Iraq to clear the way for the air war to start. A battalion destroyed 140 vehicles in 30 minutes.

The reason they never worked in the Balkans was because when they deployed the crews weren't fully up to speed.

[Sloppy Link]

A-B-I-W

I would like to point out that you are correct in what you say....Those that can, do, those that can't, instruct. Don't forget that those that can't instruct become....examiners!

:D

[flygunz]

That is a really good read and for those of us fortunate enough to fly Apaches or just work with them this comes as no suprise. I think you have to accept some degree of 'talking it up' from the Army Times which after all, has a mandate to deliver all that is good in the US Army and not dwell on anything detrimental. But for me the capability of the Apache has never been in doubt and I'm delighted to see that it's proving itself in harsh conditions.
I've followed this thread with some interest and wonder about the agendas of some people.
The UK Apache training programme run by the AAC for the Army on behalf of the entire Armed Forces will continue and succeed despite the sniping by ill informed puppets, it will not deploy to the gulf to prove itself because the bigger picture wont allow that, also the US seem to be proving it very well so why take that risk?
The last point and not one to be missed is the absoloute bravery and dedication shown by these US Apache Pilots, hats off!!!

[Dunhovrin]

I fink the Apache will only prove itself in the eyes of the rest of the Army is when it can delivery 3 MFOs and padre to G40 at 2am on a winters night:=

[mutleyfour]

Dunhoverin....you can't use your chat up lines in here, regardless of alcohol consumed!

:) :) ;)

[Dunhovrin]

Ahh but they work! Pulled a postman last night! Poor sap came over to chat up our girls who drank his beer then 'cked off for a ciggie leaving the dude cornered by me giving it "Postman? Wow - I used to fly helicopters me".

[Sorry to divert - that's all chaps - crack on!]

[SASless]

Thank you ORAC for reminding BlueWolf of reality....me thinks he had to be pprune fishing....no one could have such a post for real. The Gulf War seemed to answer those questions for once and for all.....the latest concerns about ingestion of rocket exhaust can be mitigated by tactics.....but then the Brits always have had trouble accepting American aircraft.....remember the absolute bashing the Chinook received....and now they are the backbone of the heavy airlift for the UK Forces. I guess they will have to train some line pilots to go do combat with the Iraqi's....why QHI's just cannot be used to engage the enemy....they are probably too busy slanging one another's techniques to actually get involved with the real purpose of the mission ....(to engage and destroy the enemy).

Heck....I bet they could find more than enough American pilots to fill the cockpits on a contract basis much as they did during the last big war when Americans flew Spitfires while wearing odd colored blue uniforms. Pity, there is no european gunship that can do the job and the Apache is all that is available.

I guess we could lend-lease some old worn out Cobra's....but by British military standards....it would about 2010 before they could be accepted, tested, manned up and deployed. By then it will all be over but the shouting. Course, that begs the question...where they gonna get the bodies to fill the cockpits....the written exams will take a year to do before the flying training could be done.

[mutleyfour]

What a load of twaddle.......You cannot send an aircraft that isn't in front line service yet to the Gulf. It really is as simple as that.

As for buying up a shed load of Cobra's from the US...do you really think they have a bunch of those things sitting on a dockside awaiting shipment to whoever might bid for them.

Finally why rag the QHI's who are busy as ten men learning to fly the machine efficiently in order to train the first line pilots, of which I might add, there is no shortage!

[BlueWolf]

Believe it or not SASless I do appreciate ORAC's reality checks, and sometimes even your own ;)

I'm tucking into my pie even as I type.

However, I still think AH-1Z represents better value for money, and I still believe that a Serb with an anti-aircraft gun is capable of posing a danger to helicopters.

[Used Ink]

A/Tpr Cooper: Thank you for your comments.

Yes I did start the thread about cancelling the WAH-64, didn't it go well.
Just because I mention QHI's, doesn't mean I dislike them. They just so happen to be the only ones who are able to operate the machine at present.
Bad 6 monthly, after all these years, ha,ha! The only course I was turned down for, was the boat handling course in Portsmouth last summer.
No, I'm not a retread, though, what was all that about?
As I've mentioned previously, hats off to those selected. I cant even suss out Ace Combat4 on PS2.

You said, " It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself"

I reply, "Isn't that why we all come to pprune? And I have to keep my opinion to myself because it doesn't agree with yours. Perhaps I think you are talking ****e, Comrade!"

Finally, you said," The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es."

I ask,"Why do we need unity if it's all hunky dory?"


(did you think of your nick-name yourself? I remember you from...ooooo...way back, along with Hooper)

"Lighten up Francis"

[mutleyfour]

Used Ink, either your playing devils Advocate or your a complete ******!

How does 9 reg put up with your ego!

[Used Ink]

Mutley, it's supposed to be discussion inducing. But Devils Advocate (eggy drink?) sounds better I suppose. Some may see it as being a right **** though.

(they just put up with it!)

[A/Tpr Cooper]

Used Ink I've copied my thread and see no mention of you being a retread!
You're fascination with the AH is a little odd. Are things in your own unit so good that the only thing to worry about is another unit miles away, or does unit loyalty stop you from hanging your dirty linen in public.
I tell you what, worry about the lads flying out to the Gulf, who have little to be happy about, and then worry a bit more for those who are going to have to replace them in about 6 mths if it goes pear shape. I know what I'm bothered about!!!!!



Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?
You appear to have a keen disliking for QHI's, you are having a pop, is it that you've had a bad 6 monthly recently, or maybe you've been turned down for a course. I remember a few years ago an old and bold Lynx pilot who had a dislike for QHI's, he got out of the Army slating every last one of 'em, the thing is he got back in to become a QHI!!
You are also digging at the AH, again have you been knocked back there as well.
It would be my advice that instead of sounding off and talking ****e, keep your opinions to yourself and direct your energy into areas which you have some impact, though I can only wonder what that might be. The corps needs unity right now, not gob****es.[I]Used Ink, I am curious, in a previous thread (which has now disappeared) wasn't it you who was suggesting that the Apache program should be cancelled?

[Junglie]

Dear All

You all seem to be squabbling amongst yourselves at the moment, i can't see what it is that you have to complain about.

You have managed to secure in the apache the finest attack helicopter the world has ever seen. You have denied the ownership of it to the RAF (well done) and have massively impressed me with your new approach to introducing it.

A/Tpr is right you should all be sticking together on this one as if you don't there are plenty of people out there who would gladly take over the capability!!

Went to a presentation by your big boss the other day in London village and was very impressed with the totally forward thinking manner in which the AAC are looking to totally transform their all arms doctrine to incorporate this awesome fighting machine. For once i think they may not be looking at this aircraft as a Land Rover with rotor blades!!

Used Ink - Can't imagine what planet you are on to suggest sending it to the Gulf now, shows a total lack of experience of how these things work. Do you want these things to go out there and tot up their accident record?? These aircraft and crews need more time in the cockpit and the ground crews need more experience working with them in temperate climes let alone desert conditions.

I accept that this is a place for opinions and frankly yours is wrong!!:p :p

[Zoom]

SASless, I disagree that the Brits always had trouble accepting American aircraft - witness the C-47, PBY, B-24, B-50, P-51, F-86, C-130, F-4 and many others. I would say that we accepted and operated them well enough. And I can think of 3 American jets that I would like to see in the RAF in place of the Typhoon.

But back to the Apache, which looks like an efficient piece of kit that will do a good job in the hands of the AAC. However, it shouldn't deploy to Iraq because war is not justified - yet. But that's all covered elsewhere.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Hate to interject, but should a thread start to get a bit inflamed I like to remind those who do it to reflect - just before they click on the submit button. It saves such a lot of aggro.

So back to the thread.............................

[mutleyfour]

Hopefully used ink has found another site to antagonise :yuk:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

gazed skywards today to find the beast on the go around at the wiltshire airbase:cool:

not at it's most impressive doing "IF" but nice to see it anyway.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[gingergreeny]

Isn't it about time we realised the cab is here,it's a quality aircraft and when its ready and operational will do its job as it has been designed to do.Those people who doubt its viability within the AAC must have personal reasons for not liking the aircraft(not being selected for training perhaps!).As for deploying it to the gulf well i can only liken it to asking my 3 month old son to fix an AFCS fault on a lynx.(a)It would be pointless and (b)It would be pointless.[COLOR=blue]

[mutleyfour]

I have been advised that Used Ink hasnt the faciltiy of a means to answer on this forum at the moment...so I tip my hat and wish him well, and look forward to his safe return.

[Lu Zuckerman]

I originally posted this on Rotorheads in a thread on the Apache.
It caught a lot of flack. let's see what happens here.

I was involved in the initial design of the Apache.

The US Army lied to the pilots of the Apache relative to its’ invulnerability to the ZSU 23-4 weapons system. This was the primary weapon that would be used against the Apache if it were to attack a group of Warsaw Pact tanks.

This weapon was also being supplied to all of the governments that were in league with the Warsaw Pact. The U S Army commissioned a study by a so-called ”Think Tank” to study the effectiveness of the ZSU 23-4 against the Apache. It was their considered opinion that the ZSU 23-4 was inaccurate, It had a low degree of reliability and that if the ZSU 23 did hit the Apache with one round, the pilot would have sufficient time to evade any further hits by dropping below the tree line. The uninitiated reader should understand that the ZSU 23-4 has a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per minute and that if one bullet hit its’ mark, there would be forty or fifty rounds right behind the first round. When I was on contract with Agusta helicopters I took a two-week holiday in Yugoslavia. While there, I watched a T V program, which was describing the weaponry of the Warsaw Pact. One of the weapons demonstrated was the ZSU 23-4. In the demonstration the weapon was pointed on a line parallel to a stand of trees. A helicopter popped up from behind the trees and in an instant the weapon acquired the helicopter and was pointed directly at it. The helicopter then dropped below the treetops and at that time the gun was turned off. The helicopter was allowed to fly away and the gun was turned on. It immediately started to fire and it swept an arc approximately 30 to 45 degrees on either side of center. The trees started to explode. It looked like there were hundreds of chain saw wielding loggers in the tree stand felling trees as fast as they could. It appeared to the writer that if a hail of 23mm bullets didn’t hit the helicopter, a falling tree would destroy it.

[mutleyfour]

Interesting......

lets not forget however that in order to acquire the target the ZSU 23/4 would need to turn on its radar system...into action go AH (RFI/DAS/FCR)systems and before you know it missiles are on route - splash one 23/4.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MF,
Going back to my rotary days I thought the ZSU thing aslo had an optical aquire capability?

Meaning it would not have to "lite up" and bearing in mind it's cyclic rate and low level aquisistion capability it's a fairly scary thought.

all spelling mistakes sre "df" alcohol induced

[mutleyfour]

Correct......but we did start this discussion with the helicopter being behind trees which would stop optical tracking and force the use of radar scanning. This coupled with the use of the words on and off for the gun would imply that radar was used throughout.

All im saying is that yes the 23/4 is a big problem to older helicopters without any defensive aids, but in todays climate you'd have to be a brave man to turn one of those things on....as you would attract a monumental amount of attention to yourself.

Ask the guys and girls that operate the no fly zones

[Lu Zuckerman]

How many trees do you expect to find in Iraq? You have to understand that the Apache was designed for a major land war in Europe and it was the Army’s' version of the A-10 Warthog in that it would get down and dirty with the tanks and armored vehicles. With the installation of the hellfire missiles the Apache could be used as a standoff weapons system. A further development was the inclusion of a mast mounted mm Wave RADAR which allowed the apache to observe the enemy while hiding behind trees or natural obstructions such as hills or rock projections.

I will adjust my first comments to state "How many trees, natural obstructions, hills or rock projections do you expect to find in Iraq"?

The ZSU-23-4 I believe has RADAR, optical and IR sighting capability and if it is used by the armed forces of Iraq it can defeat all of defensive systems on the Apache except the M1
Mk1 eyeball of the pilot gunner and then they may be on an even playing field.

And if the fighting is at night there is an excellent chance that the static corona discharge from the blades will provide a very good target.

:eek:

[SASless]

Lu.......

These youngsters fail to remember.....Even the bad guys have good days!

Lu's point...despite its delivery is valid.....Grenada proved him correct....read up on the losses there.

If the weapon is in a very open area....and only the Apaches are around....and if the gunner uses optical sighting.....and is patient....an Apache is in trouble big time. After that....I dare say....it will be 72 Virgins time for the gunner and nearby mates. They can also hide in built up areas.....low flying helicopters....particularly with the "hover in place" tactics can make you a very easy target if the bad guy can see you.

Young lads....do not underestimate your enemy....they are thinkers too....expect the worst...hope for the best...but be prepared. You run around thinking you are invincible and bullet proof...and you will get a rude shock.

[mutleyfour]

OK...answer me this.....during the gulf

How many aircraft were lost to ZSU 23/4? (Rotary)

Note....

I know of at least one ZSU 23/4 destroyed by Apache/s

I appreciate the complexity of the issue, and i also understand the defensive as well as offensive capability of the UK AH. There are several factors at work here and I was merely responding to the situation described in Yugoslavia....which is as SASless described in the ideal AH environment...

[flygunz]

Like a lot of ageing Military Helicopter Pilots I spent most of my time flying an unarmed aircraft with the prospect of fighting ADAs like the ZSU with a 9mm pistol. Having spent a number of years flying the AH64 I know what I would rather be in if faced with any ADA. I think Lu is barking up a tree here and I cant really see the point of the argument. Who cares what the US Military said or did not say to their Pilots? Maybe its their own fault for being so gullable.
The Apache is an awesome machine, but like any helicopter is not invulnerable or invisible but in the right hands will survive longer than any unarmed aircraft in the same environment.

[owe ver chute]

The 64 last saw active service in Afgahnistan, where it got right into the mix, up close with the GI's, doing what it is very good at. Let us not forget that it is a weapon of war, and it pilots young and old will have to put themselves in harms way in the execution of their orders. The good news was, every aircraft flew back and every pilot got home alive. The 64 did what it said it would on the tin!
I think that every soldier realises that the hierarchy tell the odd white lie in order to make the lads feel good before going over the top. I reckon telling pilots "the bad guys in ZSU's can't hit you", isn't such a whopper.
Good luck to everyone in the Attack fraternity who is doing the job in the sand right now.

[solotk]

Lu,

The RPM on the Zsu - Is that per gun, or all 4? if it's per gun, then thats 4800 rpm, or a blizzard of lead.

The Canadians used an improvised Sherman in the latter days of WW2, mounting 4x .50 cal Brownings, as an ANTI-INFANTRY device.

It worked bloody well too, from all reports. Does the Zoo have a ground to ground capability?

[david 947]

No it should not be deployed ok we have the aircrew but
nothing like what we need to support it,
no bowser's not enough drops vehicles not enough manpower
and not enough knowledge as people do not spread the wealth and keep what they know to them selfs to enhance there own careers.:yuk: