Instructors Or Charter Pilots?

[hombre_007]

Having got a start in aviation through instructing, would one day like to progress into charter. Though have heard that some chief pilots think of instructors as scum.

Is this the general outlook had by all operators? Should I have not bothered with an instructor rating (which I feel has improved my flying ability 10 fold since my cpl), and now with aroung 500 hours TT(most from instructing) and a CIR, should i head bush with the attitude that i'm no better than a 150 hour commercial pilot? Or will I have some respect from some direction?

Cheers :cool:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

H:

have heard that some chief pilots think of instructors as scum.

Have you heard that from C.Ps themselves or at the coffee machine?. A lot said in a flight school lunch room is B.S. and said by pilots who ave no idea themselves. ;)

It all depends on what experiance you have gained while instructing. If you have 500 hours of C172 with no C182/C206/C210/PA32 time then it may be a little tougher.

In any case, you have some experiance as an employee, you have basic experiance working in a Commercial Operation - therefore you have more going for you than a 150 hour CPL.

In my book anyway.

Be positive, Don't give up & Good Luck.


BTW: An Instructor Rating is a positive part of your C.V. Always consider keeping your Instructor Rating Current - Some operators/airlines do value it.

[slice]

This is only my experience, but generally instructors had no more difficulty getting employed than others. In fact in one outfit I worked for more than half had some instructional background. I think employers look much more at the type of person you appear to be rather than how you gained hours. However don't think that because you have 500 hrs TT that you have a huge edge over someone with 200 TT (It can be a benefit I know). To tell the truth I could really see no rhyme or reason as to who was hired or why. You have understand that the people that operate in GA are no better judges of character or aptitude than you or I. In fact who got hired seemed often to depend on the mood of the person doing the hiring. Some real boneheads(myself included!!) have been hired.

ps try to find operators that have a flying school as well(not many I know) - then you certainly have an advantage!

[Mr. Hat]

Employability? Comes down to your attitude really. If you go up north thinking that you know what its all about you will be put in your place very quickly.

My advice? Be humble and listen to what the more experienced characters have to say. Even though you have a whole lot of "you-beaut" ideas and catch-phrases that you learned whilst in the 152 try to not say them out loud. Anything that starts with "lift/drag curve...or bernoulli.." could make you look like an idiot.

Unfortunately there have been a few fools who have spoiled it for the others.

Its like the mustering bloke who has done all his hours in the bush going to Bankstown and telling the senior instructor how he/she should instruct - not wise.

By you posting the question it shows that you are thinking about it, which is a good sign of a good attitude. Cheif Pilots are just going to judge you on the person you are - how you present - how you react and respond to certain questions.

Good luck with it.

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

I worked for a charter operator up North where the owner really hated instructors. I believe he maybe had 1 or 2 bad pilots (ex-instructors) in the past.

His comments about instructors were :
- they have never been outside the circuit/training area
- their hours in the right hand seat do not count
- they do not know how to do a flight plan or spend hours doing one (as usually the student does the plan)

It was rather amusing hearing him put down instructors who came in the office looking for work, though I really did feel sorry for them. However I also went through the same abuse whilst looking for work from this operator.

[404 Titan]

hombre_007

As a former Chief Pilot of a large all multi IFR company based in North Queensland, I can tell you that I didn’t have a problem with instructors. Infact they came in fairly handy after they had gained a bit of line experience in the check & training roll. And while I am at it I didn’t have a problem with Jump Zone pilots either. It generally came down to whether I liked the person and thought they would fit in and be a team player, whether they met our minimum requirements, i.e. 2000 hrs total, 750 hrs Multi Eng Command, 100 hrs Ngt Command and 3 IR renewals, whether they passed the check ride and finally if the General Manager liked the person. My big advice to you is don’t stay in instructing longer than you have to. Keep your flying as diverse as possible. i.e. instructing, charter, RPT and check & training. All this will make you very employable down the track. Oh and try to avoid too much F/O time until you get a substantial amount of command time as this can cause problems with career moves down the track. I use to see large numbers of people that were trying to return to Australia from PNG with heaps of total experience but virtually all was F/O time. As they didn’t have 750 hrs multi command, I couldn’t employ them.

[Icarus2001]

Bagot Locator People like the one you talk about really crack me up. Somehow they seem to think an Instructor is not a Charter Pilot. They seem to forget that the Instructor has all the same basic training as a new CPL PLUS right hand seat time, training in recovering from student mistakes, solid theory knowledge and good understand of the regulations. (If their Instructor course was any good anyway ;) How can an Instructor never get out of the circuit?

The last part is always the unmentioned part of the equation. A dodgy GA operator certainly doesn't want someone working for him or her who can quote chapter and verse of the rules. Because when said dodgy operator asks the newbie to work seven days in a row "it's okay we have an exemption" he may not like the answer he gets. Much better if the new CPL has only 150.0 hours in the log book less likely to disagree.

Please don't suggest the old chestnut " Instructors don't know how to think and operate commercially". Translated this means, they won't turn crosswind at 200 feet agl, land with 12 knots downwind to meet the charter quoted VDO time, fly 110 hours before period inspection because "we have an exemption" etc etc.

There are non thinking, impractical and dangerous charter pilots and instructors.

It comes down to the individual. Chief Pilot's have a big responsibility to help mentor new pilot's, you get out what you put in.

Rich Fine Green has some sound advice.

I have done plenty of Instructing and Charter and the Instructing is much harder work, even with students doing the pre-flight and flight plan ;) As a CFI/CP the CFI work takes up a lot more of my time and effort than the CP work load. This in a typical small school.

[the wizard of auz]

MR HAT, although it doesnt look good, fact is, we probably could. :D

[hombre_007]

Thankyou all, for your helpful and educated responses.
It is very true that when a job is on offer, it is up to the person and attitude he bears, which depends on if he is good enough for the job. But it is now nice to now that being an instructor won't neccesarily hinder my chances for a job.

In response to the Chief pilot who doesn't like instructors, and believes we can't flight plan, sure we may not do them every day but personally, if I were to gain a charter job, it would only take a few practice plans/ t/o charts/ loading graphs before you start to be able to do them accurately and in the hour once again. And that would be my main worry when making the switch.

Thankyou all again

:D

[chinese chicken]

hi all

I do belive there is a difference between charter and intsructing,

from an instructing side, for example, much of the time is not hands on, right hand seat, the descions do not always have as much commercial pressure, if there is bad wx you usually dont go, aircraft may have u/s’s that you will not have to fly with, many intsructors think there is only one way to do things, ie they way they have been taught, specially when they are new to it, and havent really had the chance to try a few things every now and then, sometimes even make mistakes,

though many people like to forget how much time is spent in briefing's and ground time invoved for lessons, which is almost harder than the flying side

from a charter side

most CP's seem to think you are always scum when new,

employability in GA also comes down a lot to, who you know, how long youve been in town, how much you’ve been harassing the boss, and how you have come across during this time, you will usually bee seen around town, known on the phone etc and you character and personality will reflect this,

many charter pilots that have packed up all of there little belongings to go bush use the, im in the back of bum **** "doin it harder than you are" as you are still in comfy big city as an excuse that they are better pilots, not always valid,

have met a few higher end GA pilots with both intstructing and charter experince and much of it is attitude,

icarus i think most cpl's would know most reg's, not just intstructors,

quote
“Please don't suggest the old chestnut " Instructors don't know how to think and operate commercially". Translated this means, they won't turn crosswind at 200 feet agl, land with 12 knots downwind to meet the charter quoted VDO time, fly 110 hours before period inspection because "we have an exemption" etc etc. “

i think that type of attitude is more pilot orientated, operators do know legal requirments, and is more of a reflection of personal minimums and profesional standards,

There are non thinking, impractical and dangerous charter pilots and instructors.

There are lazy and unmotivated instructors and charter polts....

c u

[grrowler]

Icurus,

Translated this means, they won't turn crosswind at 200 feet agl, land with 12 knots downwind to meet the charter quoted VDO time, fly 110 hours before period inspection because "we have an exemption" etc etc. “

Don't know of many charter pilots who do that either.

However, there are things which an experienced charter pilot will instinctively do to make their flight more efficient for both the operator and passengers. I'm not suggesting illegal operations, but a few charter things that come to mind are:

(Not having a go at instructors here)

Not overflying at 1500AGL to check the wind, etc prior to joining the circuit - I'm sure not all instructors teach this, I know mine did though!

Loading of aircraft to MTOW

Operating of aircraft at MTOW/ MLW

Flying with min fuel on board

Prop/ nose wheel care on unsealed and rough strips

Runups on the run

Operating into short strips

Taking off in departure direction where possible (ie. legal)

Refuelling from drum stock

Knowing how to do quotes for charters.

Knowing how to do pilot approved maintenance

These are mostly things which you learn with exposure to charter, whether you're an instructor or a 150 CPL.

Hombre, while you may not get any respect for being an instructor (as cc mentioned no one gets respekta from CPs, regardless of background) remember that you have worked hard for those hours, and have learnt a lot in that time. Good Luck.

[Tinstaafl]

These are mostly things which you learn with exposure to charter...


I must disagree with your contention.

These are not necessarily things that are only learnt doing charter.

My instructor made damn sure I could do these things when I did my CPL training nearly 20 years ago and I made damn sure my CPL students could do these things too.

When I started doing charter these things came in very handy. Glad I already knew about them...

They're not just the province of the charter world. The caveat is that the person's instructor needs to ensure that they aren't missed out.

BTW, the item about quotes for charters? There's about as many different ways to do that as there are charter organisations.

[grrowler]

Tinstaafl,

I did say MOSTLY. I was speaking from my experience training at a large "pilot factory" school in a major city. I also have a suspicion that not many dedicated flying schools nowadays would teach those skills.

As for doing quotes, while there are a lot of variations, the basic formula is the same. It is quite difficult to get an understanding of the operating costs of aircraft when you just hand over lump sums to your flying schools, and thus the need to operate efficiently to maximise profit. That was the angle I was coming from and there is no reason flying schools can't teach this, as well as the other skills I mentioned.