Disgusted - Drink.....Flying

[Labarynth Seal]

I read about the BA Captain on BA 771 from Stockholm - Arlanda to London.. being "dragged" off the flight deck by the police, in front of his passengers. :o

You don't hear much in the world of "Helo" on that front.....

I don't know what else to say.......except, we all know when to party, but if your career depended on it, would a beer stand in the way :confused: :confused:

Personally, I don't condone it, just like drink driving, but there is a limit.......?

LS

[the wizard of auz]

I can hardly get the damn thing to do what I want when I'm sober, dunno how anyone could do it drunk. maybe the whilymagigs drove him to drink, does it to me often. :D

[BlenderPilot]

Over here the National Petroleum Agency (Pemex) had to setup a system to check each pilots breath and BP before going on duty to fly in the GOM, this was due to soo many pilots flying after a long night out with the ladies.

On my first job having only about 90 total helicopter hours, I remember flying copilot in a Bell 212 with a pilot who all the sudden said "you have the controls, fly anyway you want just don't shake me much" and after a couple of pax drop offs in the pads, he disembarked and emptied his stomach, he was still drunk, and was happy because I got to fly for following 5 hours!

I also recently worked for a US company in an WHO contract where one of the pilots flew drunk from time to time and the base manager didn't really care, neither did I for that matter.

[Heliport]

Shame to see the tabloids' version of the incident being repeated on an aviation forum. Dragged from the flight deck? The better quality papers made no allegation of that sort.
According to details released the Captain was allegedly over the limit by a misiscule amount consistent with drinking the previous night.
Not defending/condoning, just trying to be fair to the pilot involved.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I recall seeing a programme a few years ago where professional drivers were given varying amounts of whisky (hard life) and then asked to repeat tasks they'd previously done. On that occasion it included driving tasks in a safe environment off a public road.

It wouldn't be all that difficult to do something similar using a flight sim (and given the opportunity both to get drunk and aid flight safety you'd find no shortage of volunteers). The question is, has anybody done such an experiment - and can anybody point out where to find the results if they have.

G

[md 600 driver]

i think people should keep there thoughts to themselves until the facts come out

then if he is guilty, then you can slag him off

people in glass houses should not throw stones


i am not for drinking and flying nor driving
just give the chap the benefit of the doubt you would want it if it was you .

[Arm out the window]

I remember flying with a bloke early one morning and wondering why he kept on nosing the machine over gently into a shallow dive and pushing up towards Vne.
After a few occurrences of this, combined with his giggly conversation, I figured he was still p1ssed from the night before.
It surprised me because he had always struck me as a good and responsible aviator; obviously though he didn't know when to play the 'I know I'm not in a fit state to fly, I'll bite the bullet and ground myself until I'm sober' card.

[moosp]

Ghenghis

Yes it has been done. The one I vaguely remember must be over 25 years ago and involved a UK research organisation. The drinks they provided were ethyl alcohol at the same strength as UK liquor, i.e 40% v/v, in units of 1/5 th of a gill, a wonderfully archaic English measure, but the unit of liquor in UK bars at that time.

The pilots under test were given a set routine to fly in the simulator and objectively scored upon it. Then after each unit and 20 minutes wait they were re-tested.

The results were mostly as predicted, i.e. the motor skill and processing ability reduced per drink. But the surprise was that the first drink actually improved the scores. Whether this was because the candidates were trying harder and still had residual skills, or whether it was a physiological effect was never proven.

The other interesting point found was that the decline in ability was not linear. Once you were over two drinks, the performance fell off markedly.

Now where that research is today I have not idea. A bit like the research into marihuana, when a mildly positive effect was found, the government withdrew funding and outlawed the research.

[Genghis the Engineer]

"Now where that research is today I have not idea. A bit like the research into marihuana, when a mildly positive effect was found, the government withdrew funding and outlawed the research."

Somebody very senior at the CAA recently said to me "if you can't afford the answer, don't ask the question".

The position does seem consistent with banning the use of LSD for psychiatric treatment, Phelidomide for male patients, Cannabis for treatment of MS, etc. etc.

Ho Hum. I'm up at the RAeS tomorrow, I might see if there's anything in the library.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well that was rather interesting. An hour in the Royal Aeronautical Society Library with the aid of the librarian (as competent as technical librarians are at their best) came up with quite a lot spread over about 30 years worth of books and technical reports.


The basic unit of alcohol within the body is mg/100ml of blood (referred to as %mg BAL). Obviously the relationship between how much you drink and BAL is dependent upon sex, weight, and a few other things. But the references seem to pretty much agree on the following rules of thumb for a standard adult:-

1 pint beer: 24%mg within an hour (can be up to 35%mg, depending upon strength of beer which clearly varies)
1 measure spirits: 12%mg within an hour
1 small glass wine: 15%mg within an hour.

The body (liver) then evacuates alcohol at a pretty constant rate of 15%mg per hour - although the references do admit that depending upon physiology it can actually be anywhere between 8 and 25 %mg/hour.


That stuff most of us had some idea about, but certainly it helps work out where we are after a good night out.


Now to the interesting bit - what the various studies gave as effects of alcohol. The various reports, papers and medical textbooks were pretty consistent. From them I came up with the following:-

11%mg - Reduced ability to maintain correct airspeed or flightpath under high workload

15%mg - 1/3 of pilots in fatal accidents had this level or above in their bodies (from autopsy reports)

20%mg - UK legal flying limit. Significant increase in errors on RT, planning and correct following of procedures.

40%mg - US legal flying limit. Major effect on number of errors on RT and following procedures.

50%mg - Impaired ability to visually fix or track objects

60%mg - Consistent degredation of long term performance even on low workload tasks.

80%mg - UK legal driving limit

150%mg - loss of self control (exactly what is meant by this wasn't defined)

200%mg - double vision, some loss of memory

400%mg - Loss of consciousness.


Three other notes were interesting...

(1) from a study where they tanked pilots up to 150%mg which was that afterwards when BAL had gone down to zero, visual impairment and disorientation could occur up to 7 hours afterwards.

(2) All the studies agreed that under high workload alcohol degraded pilots' performance much more than under low workload.

(3) Up until very high alcohol levels, virtually all the degredation was of judgment or ability to follow procedure, rather than of actual physical skills.

G

[S76Heavy]

I've been told by an MD that alcohol significantly decreases the effect of sleep as well, so a night on the binge cause you fatigue before you start work even if you managed the full 8 hours shuteye.. So much for the nightcap, then.

[SASless]

Ghengis.....does that mean after several of the foaming ales....my thought that I can fly well is flawed....or is it my flying is flawed....or both simultaneously?

[flygunz]

Ok why don't we have a small experiment of our own here.
Have any of you pruners on this thread flown an aircraft the morning after any form of drinking and felt under the weather?
I'll put up and say yes when I was young and stupid!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Another interesting experiment would be a couple of laptops with PC flight simulators in the corner at the next bash.

SASless, only your co-pilot can answer that question.

G

[Old Man Rotor]

Years and Years ago........I can remember a performance based assesment [scientific] of drunks and performance...........!!!!!

Sober they were Ok..........half cut they were better..........cut they were bad, and in the hangover [but sober] phase they were terrible..........

Just a reflection guys........