Airman Aircrew pay review [Archive]

WarmInTheMiddle

7th Feb 2003, 15:35

Great to see the news about the Airman (Aircrew) Sustainability result - at last the people who need it most have got the recognition they deserve (not sure what the folks on 22-plus and 13-minus years will be thinking though?).

Some tips for not being so cold down the back:

a. Spend more time in the Galley - the Teapot makes a great hot water bottle.

b. Load the bags more quickly and work up a sweat.

c. Seek a commission - its "Warmer in the middle".

P.S. To "Freezin'in the back" - didn't realise that any of :sad: ones' or Whiskas' gangs had the capacity to form actual thoughts.

Keep Smilin'* / Moanin'*

*Delete as appropriate

escapee

7th Feb 2003, 15:47

Warminthemiddle,
If you have a commission yourself and sit in the middle how the bl00dy hell would you know what a teapot is for.
ps the galley is next to the bog!:}

On the subject of the airmen aircrew susblah... 12 yrs done thinking of PVRing what incentive is there in it for me to complete 22. The way I see it the RAF is going to give people who are in the pension draw and have no intention or little of leaving, 20k for doing what they were going to do anyway. I thought the incentive would be to keep people in after their 22. Correct me if I am wrong this is based on crew room chat as we have not been briefed yet

shandyman

7th Feb 2003, 16:42

To Escapee . . .
My reply earlier to the original post is as accurate as my memory will allow. I think that those serving between 3 and 12 already have a bonus scheme, at 4 and 7.5 yrs. (I may be mistaken).
Listening to the chat in the crew-room this afternoon, people seem happier than I expected, particularly with a section of the brief indicating how surprised the powers that be were with our complete lack of faith to date in the leaderhip. This has been and will continue to be, addressed as a matter of urgency. Stable door and horse bolting spring to mind but at least the problem has been recognised!

Fixedwingfaggott

7th Feb 2003, 17:19

Can somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here, but havn't us AA who have just shown allegiance by staying in past the 22 year point and now in our 23rd year, been once again, cast aside. It was only 2 years ago that they paid out to our fellow MACR who had completed the 22 years, whilst colleagues in my position fell short by 12 months. We have already suffered the humility of the down grading of experianced squadron FS but how much more can we take. I am positive that there must be many more AA in my position and would value your comments.

akula

7th Feb 2003, 17:26

bah humbug,
what a total crock we have been sold and the powers that be know it (AASS gets a good old slating in the AFPRB's 31st report). Wow a £20K FRI for those at their 17yr point and a percentile payment for those with less 5yrs to run, this incentive is only to run for 3yrs so yet again their airships have a short term solution to a long term problem. It was good to read that flying pay is to be paid dependant on rearcrew employment, once they have got the mystical computer fixed in 2005 (I have got to admire the gall of that blatant lie)

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

ALWAYS assume NEVER check

The Gorilla

7th Feb 2003, 17:42

Having gone into it in great detail, there is absolutely nothing in it for me. I have done over 22 years, with 2 years to my age 47 exit point.

So let me see, you want me to go to the desert for 6 months out of my last 2 years and take a 5K paycut when the bonuses aren't replaced. Mmm I don't think so!!!!!

My PVR went in at 1330 hrs.

Most of you guys will moan and b*tch but VERY FEW of you (If any at all) will actually vote with your feet. So you get what you deserve I am afraid.. :rolleyes:

6nandneutral

7th Feb 2003, 18:27

Airmen Aircrew or should I now say NC Aircrew, is there anything in it for those who have passed the 22 yr point, i.e. can they join the new professional aircrew spine, opt out of commissioning and have the flying pay included with the basic pay, leading on to a higher pension? Also worthy of note that the FS and MACR ALMs are still in the lower pay band :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :yuk:
edited for spelling, don't spell 2 good when upset.

cheezer

7th Feb 2003, 19:50

I have just completed 22yrs , too late to get the 5k bonus. I don't see that I will get anything out of this review.
A solution perhaps is for a lot of AA who have not reached their 12yr point, or have passed their 22yr point to Pvr / Ngr, then form a limited company and sell their services back to the RAF. It would only take 40-60 AEOp's to do this and the RAF wouldn't cope.
:mad: you bet I am!!

shandyman

7th Feb 2003, 23:27

I don't qualify for any of the bonuses and it is unlikey that I'll qualify for the PA spine. I can however see and understand what the powers have tried to do. Let's be honest , you are never going to please everyone without looking at individuals' case by case. Even then I'm sure that we would still have some unhappy puppies.
The flying pay thing will never be resolved. Get used to it. We were all expecting an increase, `aint never 'gonna happen. The O's pay may come down to match ours but ours will never reflect the closed shop that is O's flying pay!
Like others have already said, "if you aren`t happy then just do one" and take up one of the many jobs available for us out there.
The desert beckons and I'll see you all out there.

2ndclasscitizen

8th Feb 2003, 00:10

Reading into it....

The 20k is taxable, we'll be lucky to see 13k, if you decide to leave before your 22, (pvr, lose flying cat, get a commission in a non-aircrew branch etc) you have to pay back the full 20k. Nice.

The 4 and 71/2 bonuses are going to free up cash for the PA spine and the 20k. (from the horses mouth that one)

In 2005/6 the comparative flying pay will be looked at, (not nessesarily awarded), and my boss, officer type, has been told to expect a pay cut around then. Not all bad then.

The 'empowering' of Masters means they will effectivley do the jobs the F/L's do as crewman leaders/ Aeo's, so guess what? Less commisioning opportunities. (unless you go ops support)

Promotion to F/S no longer coming with an offer to 55. Can't have us slacking.

Maybe I'm wrong and it is a good thing.

Or on the other hand maybe it's frozen toblerone time....bend over.:eek:

Charlie Luncher

8th Feb 2003, 03:09

So

As a 13 1/2 yr flighty I would not have benefited at all, most of what was put forward to the team was taken up and this reflected well on those involved. Apart from the incentive for people just past their 12 yr point, but then very few leave at 12 yrs, most leave at 17.:rolleyes:

Those of you with teddies airborne at the moment should look carefully between PVR and NGR, dont take the blunties word read the Ap closely, having walked all is not rosy outside, expect to work a lot harder for less rewards.

I only hope that within this whole jumble there is a serious look at terms of service for the new Non-commissioned Aircrew branch or has only the name changed?

Regards to all in frozen blighty, now where did I put that chilled local chardonnay, as it is piggin hot out here.:p

cgi_firstclass

9th Feb 2003, 07:17

GORILLA you earn my respect. You have the courage of your convictions. Certainly 'middle of the aircraft' material.

FIXEDWINGFAGGOT you have my sympathy but you know were in the dictionary that comes. The airships note the Gorillas of the world and when they become the dominant creatures the changes for all are introduced. Sorry but they just view you as a whinger who has not the courage of theit convictions. Dream the excuses but the cut no ice with the AVM's and AM's. You are paid 36k+ for your loyalty. Thats what they can convince the Treasury it is worth.

ESCAPEE Be happy. You have a new Budgens and one of the smartest coffee bars in the HUNTER fleet. One day your existance will be near perfect with a new building. Perhaps perfect when they give you your own heating when sitting very close to the galley/toilet. My new colleagues cannot believe that you can make a cup of tea and have a pee at the same time.

To all, if you are involved in the possible forthcoming events, fly safely, my thoughts are sincerely with you.

Avtur

9th Feb 2003, 19:34

Am in a room in the Eastern part of the World watching Schindler's list;clucking bells. Am thinking how lucky we have all been and how things could be so much different.

My arm is also sore and I wonder if I have done the right thing. I am scared for what may happen and yes, I will be in the front line of things evan as an NCA "member" (to coin a phrase).

I know people thought they were going to get something fantastic out of the our "AA review", however I hope they didn't expect it. I hope that as the non-naive professionals that we should be, that we would understand that the requirement of the Service was not to lose (in the short-term), the numbers of NCA that would statistically cause grief to our fleets.

We have seen these reviews for years, and should know that only a few benifit and the majority lose. The people we think should have been targeted never are, and those who were, should n't.

Consider yourselves lucky and think about what you could be earning in civvy street; Consider what you are getting now.

For those of you that have served less than 14 years; you have a great deal to achieve and give, for us knackered sh*ts who dont get a penny; we have a great deal to pass on, and to take.

I am watching people being murdered now. Sorry to be so stiff,(it has been a week).

nav attacking

9th Feb 2003, 20:55

A word of caution for all thinking the PAS will mean a huge pension increase because of the flying pay being included. What they will probably do is give you a 'representative' pay band for pension purposes (whatever that means). All I know is that it is not as good as it first seems. The 'representative' pay band is not equal to your current pay plus flying pay at all. The Officers' PAS pension is calculated on the number of days done on PAS multiplied by a supplement, which will probably be changed as they see fit...(PAS pilots will get an extra 64.7p per day per year on PAS whereas WSO (RC) will only get 41.1p per day per year). Yet another front/rear split occuring and I thought we were all operating the same aircraft.......

Also will you be required to sign up for the new pension system when it comes out?

The Gorilla

9th Feb 2003, 22:37

AVTUR

I think your post sums things up exactly!
You are sat with a sore arm. At some point you may have to take unlicensed tablets that may interact with the injection that caused your sore arm and permanently damage your health. You are scared and on the front line!

As for the review, I didn't think I would get anything except that which had been agreed back in 1998. It is not unreasonable to expect the same rate of flying pay as an Officer who does EXACTLY the same job as me! It was agreed in 1998 and AGAIN in 2003. But we aren't going to get it are we?

I know the salary I get now, I will never get in Civvie Street. But quality of life has to come first. What are we? A rag tag cash starved outfit, trying to be a world power Air Force. With Dad’s Army managers who aren't fit to be running corner shops. About to fight a war that the British public don't appear to support. Most fleets over 35 years old and ready to drop out of the sky, troops having to buy their own equipment!! NCA will always have Commisioned Aircrew looking down their noses at us and treating us as if we just dropped off their shoes.

Out there the grass isn’t greener it’s true. But as I am rapidly discovering, the job market is very strong and for any one who has done 22 years plus, life can be extremely comfortable outside.
I have made absolutely the right decision for me in PVR'ing.

Bottom line, fellow NCA is this: If you don't like what they have done in the review then leave. If you are not going to leave, then shut up and get on with the job in hand!

As Black Adder said just before he blew his whistle in 1917 “Good luck everybody”

:p

seafuryfan

10th Feb 2003, 00:22

First, lets not lose sight of the need for the study:

"...to ensure that the appropriate number and quality of AA, of all specialisations, are recruited and retained in order to meet the long-term operational needs of the RAF."

It was NOT to satisfy older sore-in-the-tooth rearcrew who felt hard done by over various issues. There was a deficit of people leaving at a certain stage of their careers and a cash incentive has been offered to sort that deficit.

As far as I can see:

New WSO branch structure: good, allows possibility for crossing to 'other trade' if we want to.

MACR to be employed for recruitment and selection of WSOs: good.

Training: single, modular course. Perhaps not so good for those wanting a specific trade. But good for re-training (AEO changes to ALM etc).

Career Managment Strategy: So far I think we have not had a proper one (sqn merry go-round). This is a start. MACRs to PMA, SO3 etc.

NCA to get accreditations for quals. Good.

Remedial physio work for crewmen. At least they are recognising its a problem which needs sorting.

PA spine: I'll reserve judgment on this one 'till I see the numbers. I'd welcome a larger pension, although I do n.b the above comment about what it might really mean.

It also recognises that MACRs don't do alot of management stuff for their rank. Running a section is a bit more like it. So at least the Sgt/FS/MACR ladder gives something to aim for.

I'm dissapointed by the defferal (sp?) of the flying pay issue again. However, it will not make me leave.

MACRs to be Rearcrew Leaders. Good for the challenge and responsibility, but I do wonder about the subsequent lack of a Commisioned link. Rearcrew leaders: did you ever get THAT much sorted out at the bar in the O's Mess? As far as I can see, if you have a Boss worth his salt, ni matter what his rank, he will fight your case for you if it is a just cause.

bootscooter

10th Feb 2003, 22:35

just to show the other side of Seafury's coin....

1) Really, how mny NCA bang out with five years or less to pension time?

2) I've lost count of the number of servicemen/people I've met interested in ALM, but are concerned about the FW/RW uncertainty. I honestly believe that the new system of "what's my job going to be, where am I going to get posted?(Kinloss)" is going to wreck recruitment.

3) MACR running sections...excellent, however, logic suggests that this will turn into a money saving excercise (no need for Commisioned AA) , and put an end to the Officer/AA flying pay problem.

Realistically, especially if the rumuored pension changes occur, what incentive is there to remain in service after 12 years. Or is this part of a master plan?

Always_broken_in_wilts

11th Feb 2003, 05:55

Boots has got it spot on. Does anyone know of anyone daft enough to actually leave at the 17 year point with all the pension/gratuity implications that entails:yuk:

If anyone is fooled by the new recruiting package then you really need to try and get out a bit more. It's nothing more than a stealth effort to get bums on seats in the frozen north of Ice Station Kilo. And the daft notion that you can "retrain" from Aeop/Wsop to maybe Air Eng or Alm is laughable and if they think anyone other than the gullable spotty faced youth from off the streets is going to fall for it then they are pi@@ed:rolleyes:

MACR in important posts is a great idea........or cut out Comissioned Aircrew and save all that pension and gratuity and flying pay costs.............which do you think the bean counters thought was most important :p

Reality check folks......it's a cost saving exercise with a last ditch attempt to mug enough punters into place in Kinloss.

For my money an offer of 22K at the 22 year point for a return of service to age 47, would'nt help me as I am already at my 29.5 year point so no axe grinding here:p , and relocating the Grimnod to Lincolnshire would have been two outstanding moves solving retention of quaity AA and increasing the desire of guys to go Aeop/Wsop over night.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Charlie Luncher

11th Feb 2003, 06:28

ABIW

What a very good idea move the kipper fleet to blighty give the lads time to get their skin colour to white from blue before they go to sunny places.

It would however upset the sweaties - ah well.

Their Airships and the rest of the Air Force might even realise that the Norman exsists and is not a cold war relic - but then that may require intelligence.:eek:

The review has to be better than a website and a poster campaign.:D
no dis to the AAircrew webmaster, how is ISK by the way:=

Tiger_mate

11th Feb 2003, 12:13

Does anyone know of anyone daft enough to actually leave at the 17 year point with .........

I asked that very question, and the answer is that the Incentive , bribe call it what you will is to retain people after their 12 year point. I think a wedge at 25 years would have been more constructive but then I am just a worker:yuk:

I cannot see many ALMs wanting to go to other trades but can see the downsized AEng folk coming to ALM with the same badge from 1 Apr 03 and diferant rates of pay for at least another year.

Always p me off that the RAF give after the tax man and take back before the tax man when told to shove it:mad:

T_M

bootscooter

11th Feb 2003, 14:17

But surely, the bung at 17 yr point is pointless......who is really going to leave with the pension within reach. To retain past 12 yr, how about "signing on bonus" in the same vein, repayable if you reach for black/yellow before the 17 yr point. After that, it all takes care of itself. Or have I missed something?

WarmInTheMiddle

11th Feb 2003, 14:30

Escapee: Sympathize with your 12-year point dilemma - there will always be winners and losers when the "dosh is dished" (witness the FRR payments of 2001/2). Personal advice: If you are really considering PVR - do it now - there will be nothing worse than being bitter as you approach the big four-oh.

Generally crew room banter back here in blighty has even generated one suggestion that the Service would have been better off doing nothing at all. At least then there would have been less heartache for all those who are now disappointed.

Shandyman: Which level of the leadership are you faithless about? - Do you really think that anyone but Treasury mandarins really have a say in these issues. I cannot really see that Stn Cdrs ISK, DL, VN or NBN (new Budgens nearby) are really celebrating the fact that many of their boys are so p****d off.

FixedWingFaggot: (are you :sad: one by the way?) - Sorry mate - but if you are in beyond 22 years you have presumably accepted an offer of further service after due consideration. The downbanding of AEOp fs/macr WAS wrong, but we are long past that now. If you are considering PVR please see my comment to Escapee above.

Akula: "bah humbug"? The time criteria applied to this bonus matches exactly that applied to commissioned aircrew bonuses - (do you want equality or what?).

Gorilla: Much respect. Admire your bottle in PVR'ing. Question: as you are serving to age 47, have you received an offer of further service to age 55 and elected to wait, or was the Service still debating on whether to retain you or not? Either way, good luck.........

Cheezer: You, guy, really puzzle me - who would run your "Ltd Co" - all chiefs, no indians or vice-versa? What would the pay scales be and would you offer bonuses? Furthermore, be careful what you wish for - 60 AEOps is periously close to the average AEOp sqn strength on the kipper fleet. Please don't give " their airships" any more good ideas about re-shaping the maritime force.

Avtur: If you are who I think you are, the common sense nature of your post is completely unsurprising. Hope the arm is better, might (or might not) be seeing you soon.......... As I look out of the window of our sumptuous crew room, I can see a Peugeot 206CC with the lights left on.........

Keep smilin'* / moanin'*

*Delete as applicable

The Gorilla

11th Feb 2003, 16:00

WarmInTheMiddle

I am engaged to age 47 as a result of being ground crew before becoming aircrew. I have said all along that I cannot wait until age 47 to leave. Indeed two years ago this month I was about to PVR. They decided to pay me 2 x £5K to keep me in until 01 Apr 03. Since then I have been given the usual carrot of wait one more year, secondary re-engagement is very competitive etc. It's just around the corner!!

I have waited to the last possible moment to leave. For the record, it's not about a lack of bonuses in the review. The review was the last piece of my jigsaw puzzle of life. A bonus would have kept me in obviously, but as an ageing commodity I have to leave before I am considered to be to old to employ. Even now in my chosen second career I am considered to be over age by some of the companies involved.

Age 47 is probably THE worst engagement the service ever offered to anyone. LOS 30 isn't much better either, means I will exit at age 48!!

I don't particularly want to leave, but I have been boxed into a corner with no way out. I would be happy to be extended to Age 50 or 55, as I would not have to worry about a second career. But then the ball isn't in my court.

I have a question: Are there any Airmen Aircrew out there engaged to Age 47? If so could you please e-mail me? Thanks.

Mad_Mark

11th Feb 2003, 16:01

Charlie L,

...how is ISK by the way

A hell of a lot quieter for the past few months, I wonder why that is? Oh, hang on.... How long have you been gone now? :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

Hertzsprung Russell

11th Feb 2003, 17:49

My intention is to leave at the IPP. Consequently, my FRI (Free Resettlement Incentive) will be greatly received and has already been spent by my wife. It will in no way act as a retention incentive in my case - in fact many others may view it as extra incentive to leave at the 22 year point. It's BARKING mad.

Remember, dont' buy a house, don't by a car

Save all your money, and PVR :D

Hoots

11th Feb 2003, 18:28

Firstly, not everyone will always be pleased.

There was more in this package than i expected but some of the recommendations may be a long way off.

For the empowerment of MACR, who will become employable in SO3 slots etc. where are they going to get them from. Our lordships wont take guys from the front line to go sit at a desk.

I'm sure the MACR will enjoy the extra ACR's they will have to complete as WSOp leaders or whatever they will be called.

For any recruiting types down at Cranwell reading this your latest WSOp recruiting material is still way off the mark. For those who havn't seen it, it goes on about marine patrol aircraft and oil and gas installation surveillance. But it is very PC and EO. This is one area where the MACR need to get into and sort it out. The idea of AA, oops sorry NCA being involved in the recruiting process makes sense as some of the old duffers down there havn't got a clue.

Now as for the PA spine, i'll reserve judgement till I see the details and consult a financial advisor, if I ever get selected for it that is.

The biggest gripe has got to be the flying pay scandal, whether it goes up for NCA or down for the commisioned chaps matters not. The fact that it will have taken 7 years to implement is a bit of a joke. I'm sure some computer geek could have sorted that one out, or was there too many corners cut with the origional software to cut costs? The worst case i suppose is that the officers flying pay comes down to our level and I bet it won't be backdated to 1998, if you see what i mean. One thing that could have helped on the flying pay side was making the time between initial, middle and higher rates equal. Your officer gets his middle 4 years after his initial and higher 4 years after his middle, correct me if i'm wrong. While you wait 22 years for your top whack, so where is the equal opportunities in that one for additional pay.

I'll still be in till i'm 55 as I still enjoy the job, but certain aspects of this study may be a little divisive and I'm sure it was the same with the officer FRI's.

day1-week1

11th Feb 2003, 18:41

Have just heard that the long term plan is that eventually the air force will comprise of pilots and NC aircrew - no navs and whats more no comissioned AEOps/ALMs/AEngs, something about en-powering MACRs? Although many probably aren't the fussed, I imagine that there a few who have always seen airman aircrew as a stepping stone to getting a comission, ie failed pilot/navs who were offered AEOp/ALM and took it. Now that this opportunity has been taken away, my betting is that quite a few will say B*ll**ks to it and reaply to OASC again. Result - further lose due to one of the measures that was designed to retain people.

covec

11th Feb 2003, 19:11

Just curious - what would be the effect of moving E3s & R1s to ISK, and MR2s to, oh I dunno, Waddo?

Hertzsprung Russell

11th Feb 2003, 19:18

Better still - move the E3's to Lossie, the R1's to Wyton and the MR's to St.Mawgan.

Remember, dont' buy a house, don't buy a car

Save all your money, and PVR
;)

Rude C'man

11th Feb 2003, 19:42

Gorrilla- hats of to you matey well done for sticking with your convictions.
Boots - spot on matey very very true.

Now for my own hunble opinion, the deal is good in some places and stinks in others.
Flying pay - what a load of bolox. I'm thinking of seeking some legal advice from an employment lawyer as to the legal arguement of change in TOS and implenetation of policy , is it discriminative and unfair etc any one interested in joining in ?

Promotion in WSOp branch , confirmed from horses mouth after april 1st all NCO Aircrew will be in the same pot on the same board despite there branch FS MACR requirements , mmm stinks me thinks

WSOp - thinly disguised to get excess ALM and Eng blokes on a Nimrod so they too can hurl every where
Loss of Commisioned slots to MACR , great about time we did something for the crown and anchors that were promoted over the last few years

Recruiting .. mmmm well the word from the DE is they wouldn't go near a WSOp job unless they were guaranteed there choice ie crewman alm etc

Bonus scheme , great maybe misplaced me thinks but im a winner and it hasnt enfluenced my decsision to stay in to 22 one jot well done airships
Will it make mor4e people sign on to IPP , I dont know but do the MOD care , me thinks they want a young professional team that the majority leave after 12 yrs and are repalced with new younger models who dont break so easily.

At the end of the day we all know that there are some hidden agenders here and were not being told the whole truth . Get rid of raer crew leaders , why I ask let pilots and WSO report on us mmmmmmm me thinks it's not going to work that well , it hasn't in the past !!!!

As for the dedicated physio for crewman , what a joke where we going to get these from , PEd staff and the medics are way under manned !!!!

Boys and Girls I put it to you this is just a stab at trying to address the problems and there seems to be some hidden agenders, on the face of it , its not bad put dig deeper and i think long term were in for a whole load of hurt.
Just wait to see what happens to the pension pot of gold .....
Any way off to do some more basic Vm at the School of excellence ... take care all in the gulf , fly safe and

all spelling mistakes are due to a temporary capacity problem at the moment

:rolleyes:

Always_broken_in_wilts

11th Feb 2003, 23:27

RC dear chap,
Had you been imbibing of strong liquor whilst typing your last as there appear, as probably in mine:D , quite a few typo's etc, however just be aware that one of the:

"great about time we did something for the crown and anchors that were promoted over the last few years" is now, god help us, very influential in where we are employed and from what I remember of him.................stroker!!...............watch your six young fella :p

The only accurate thing I have seen so far from the report is that us at the coalface percieve our lords and masters as a bunch of [email protected] me we are wrong...........20K at the 17 year point to stay till 22.....f@@k me readers:}

We have the "team" here in Wilts on friday and thanks to Tigs I will be asking the same question as regards 20K at 17 years but with a slightly differant slant to see what they have to say. However the new recruiting package is just utter tosh.

Guaranteed Wsop or my co@ks a kipper!! then a promise of retraining to something else................good grief ask the guys just trying to get from Rotarty to fixed wing how easy that is.....................................sirs you are full of pooh and will be caught out, as always.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

maniac55

12th Feb 2003, 07:27

Always_broken

Didn't get the chance to ask this at our brief from the team, but you might wish to.

How is it that a computer system that has to be updated each year with new rates of pay can't cope with a flying pay change?

All that has to be accessed in the system is the rate (happens every year), and the point at which an individual changes band (a parameter that is already programmed into the system and could easily be changed).

I don't accept that this cannot be done. Having read the AFPRB report, they seem to be just as frustrated with the MOD's inability to impliment some of their recommendations simply because of computers systems.

At least if we had asked the AFPRB to set the rates we would know where we stand & have found what needed to be changed. It seems to me that our lords & masters used the computer problem to dodge the issue, the AFPRB where asked to look at other issues with the knowledge that they could not be acted on yet, but it wasn't done with flying pay! :mad:

BTW para 2.16
"For the future, DLA MCG pointed out that the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law gave everyone the right to belong to a trade union." - Just a thought:cool:

The Gorilla

12th Feb 2003, 16:16

I want to be serious for a moment!!

Having been to a recent road show presentation, I would like to congratulate all the board members on a job extremely well done. I think the new system will be a winner and a huge improvement for our cadre. I believe they are a victory for common sense especially given today’s tight fiscal policies. There is still some work to be done with issues such as flying pay etc but the basic framework will come good, of that I am certain. Well done!

The horrendous mistakes of the past, such as the reserved rights fiasco to name but one CANNOT be corrected overnight. Those who are in now can only look to a much brighter future. I know that feelings run deep, and that some people think that they have lost out. Indeed I am one of them but hey, that's life isn't it? I only wish that these changes had been implemented 15 years ago. I know that I would have had far greater opportunities available along with a more varied working life.

Tiger_mate

12th Feb 2003, 17:10

Whatever your on (Gorilla), can I have a pint?

Rude C'man

12th Feb 2003, 19:58

Wilts- yes was slightly the worse for wear.
Also ask the question of how come the flying pay issue was ratifies way back and still not being implemented as policy .
Also ask about promotion and the fact were all in the same pot now as from 1 apr despite being paid on different pay bands according to branch !!!!

As for the six matey , ain't no one coming near my ass unless she's blonde, stunning and has a jelly feel strap on attatched to her groin. Mmm sounds like I've been away too long !
Actually said man is doing fine and going down well at the moment , can't be said for some around the town though .:eek:

TheSeeFarShadow

12th Feb 2003, 20:04

The way I see it is that the only way the RAF is going to productively tackle recruiting and retention is to make the RAF appealing - that will stop or at least slow down the PVR/NGR/IPP option exodus and solve the recruiting problem for all trades.

It comes down to that quality of life thing again, you know the one, the bit which was missed out of the Study. What benefits are there these days to joining or staying in the RAF. The FRI and the PA spine are just 'incentives' for the few, they don't go anywhere near what is required. Let's just throw a bit (not enough) money at some people and hope for the best. Who worked out how much you can buy a AA's loyalty for??

The problem doesn't stop at aircrew, look at the other trades in the RAF and see that the RAF is going down the pan.

I know we all are well paid (have a look in the appointments section of papers and see what sort of jobs you have to get to match our pay) BUT the quality of life in the Armed Forces must be the overiding factor. Apparently there is a QoL 'manual' knocking around the stations, anybody actually seem it?? I bet it doesn't get even close to what is needed.

At least the Moray council will be happy with all these people with 20K in there pockets. £100,000,000 a year into the local community from ISK and Lossie over the last 5 years.

Flap62

12th Feb 2003, 20:39

Hate to say it but - Told you s.... nah. Better not!

manualtilt

12th Feb 2003, 21:16

Was suprised to see so few entries in this forum about the AASS. Has the cadre laid down and died, or did the threat of death by posting some gossip here before the release date by their airships do its job?!!

I'm set to gain something out of the AASS, a thin slice of FRI and the carrot dangle of PAS; shame the FRI wasn't 75% of the Officers rate this time! However being the cynic the RAF has turned me into, "computer problems implementing AP98", Oh please, spare me, we're not that niave! The real issue is there is no way NCA will get the same FP as their officer equivalents and the delay gives the purse holders enough time to massage the rates by 05/06.

The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the AFCOs can fill the recruitment hopper enough, otherwise the whole plan will go down the swanny and the coalface will bleed even more!

And on a last note, AA Webmaster, I know who you are!!;)

Always_broken_in_wilts

12th Feb 2003, 22:44

Maniac and RC,
Oh but I wish I could ask the Q's you suggest but at the last minute the desert calls:yuk: OK It's only out to kebab platz, via the place where it's legal for a dad to murder his daughter if she brings shame on the family:} radio 5 live today....what a fuc£in country, and back again but it means that I will miss fridays propganda excercise.................I can't belive gorilla fell for it:rolleyes:

Hoping the guys in our office will be going in guns blazing and any feedback I get will be posted here asap..........for what use that will be.

Anyway all being well it's Polis friday night for a "full kebab with liver and no shish", the "Colonel" saturday lunchtime for United lots...Gooners little and then home sunday for "a mans rights" :O

In my dreams:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

keepin it in trim

13th Feb 2003, 00:02

I left the RAF last year at my 38 option, as a pilot and at the rank I held I had a guaranteed career to 55 if I wanted it. Had I elected to stay, and it was my choice to go, I would have collected £30 000 AFTER tax at my option date merely for staying for another 5 years. I know several people in the same position who took exactly the same decision.

I had already decided to go when the retention incentives were announced and they did not even make me think twice about changing my mind. I have taken a very large pay cut, over 30% less, in my new career. BUT, am I happy? Yes I am. I get time off to spend with my family, enjoy my hobbies and watch the world go by. The money was never the issue for me, quality of life was the issue, and that is the nub of the problem for you guys.

When the FRIs for officer aircrew were announced the point was made that generally pay was not the issue, however, the non-remuneration issues were now so expensive to fix and would take so long that in the short term paying people a bit more to compensate was the only option.

Unfortunately this policy has come a little(!) too late. I have this theory that when people are a bit hacked off paying them a bit more will probably stop most of the gripes. However, if you wait until they get really hacked off the kind of sums necessary to make them happy again rapidly become unaffordable. I think that is now the situation. You have my sympathy, and we all know where that comes in the dictionary, but I think from what I have heard and given the fact that MoD genuinely is skint, what is being offered is probably the least worst solution in the circumstances.

I must say that I am a little shocked at the apparent divide between officer aircrew and non commissioned aircrew in some fleets. I spent my entire career working in a "mixed" environment and I always felt that we were a strong team. I also did everything I could to fight the corner for my team when I ultimately found myself in a command appointment. I would hope that all officers would take the same stance and that those who do not are the exception.

For what it's worth, and in my admittedly very limited experience of them, I think that quite a lot of people at Stn Cdr level and above try their best but the treasury squashes lots of good ideas on cost grounds, remember they are not generally allowed to come back and say "well we tried guys but it was turned down by Gordon" ( I saw some very strong comments by one senior officer about the FRIs for officers and the fact that an equivalent package was necessary for NCO aircrew ). However, the treasury is interested in paying the bare minimum required to get enough people to do the job. Sounds like this package reflects that.

For all of you on your way to sandy places, best of luck and take care.

Avtur

13th Feb 2003, 08:59

WarmInTheMiddle.

Whilst you are in our great crew room, presumably waiting for morning prayers that wont happen, can you pop out and turn my lights off. You could also give it a quick polish (the car, that is).

Arm is better, head is now sore. See you at the next Christmas party.

Cheers.

WarmInTheMiddle

13th Feb 2003, 12:18

Avtur: Ah Ha! - it IS you - how easily you fell for that "match the individual to his car" ploy. :D Will despatch a member of your Flt to polish it (the car) - but this will obviously have to be done tomorrow as they've all (as usual) b*ggered off for the day. Reference the Christmas party - I've cleared my diary for Jul 04 in anticipation..... Will see you soon somewhere:cool:

Hertzsprung Russell

13th Feb 2003, 14:42

Manualtilt,

Agree, I also expected this thread to be chocka by now - it's most un-AA-like not to be wingeing at max chat on this subject !

With ref to your comment "The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the AFCOs can fill the recruitment hopper enough, otherwise the whole plan will go down the swanny and the coalface will bleed even more! "

Would it help recruitment if the MACR that will be involved with future NCA selection at AVCO's explained to the perspective candidates the history of the treatment of un-commissioned aircrew compared to the commisioned variety ?

Please don't acuse me of looking backwards when we are encouraged to look forward, but remember it pays to look over your shoulder when in fear of iminent back-stabbing.

Perhaps the next aircrew review will recommend that ALL aircrew should be Non-Commisioned. Think of the money that could be saved - now where's that GEMS form !

H-R

Warm-I-T-M

Judging from the time of your post, looks like you also bu@@ered off early as usual ! Pot - Kettle etc :p

Shouting Rad-Alt

13th Feb 2003, 19:51

So what exactly did people want?

Kylie had it right..."Better the devil you know!":suspect:

Logistics Loader

14th Feb 2003, 10:40

Well yet again the "flying club" are moaning..!! if you dont like it, PVR, someone else would probably take your job on for the same wage you are getting.
£20k bonus at 17yr point !! for what ?? doing the job your paid to do...
When i joined, there was no bonuses/retention schemes...
Now theres a 4yr and 7yr bonus for groundcrew..
Is this not discrimination ?? against those already serving..

Promotion...
To get promoted these days you need:-
1. Be Formally Warned
2. Been Charged for a serious offence ie Theft/Fraud/GBH/D and D
3. Been stuck on same posting for decades, so yr Sh1T at only one job.
4. Never done an OOA.
5. Fornicate with someones else's wife, esp at high level.

If you've never been charged,never formally warned,gained your LSGCM, done loads of OOA, never had the boss's wife after a beer call...promo prospects....ZERO..!!!
Because your file is in the admin black hole collecting more dust..!!
why, you aint done anything wrong to prove you can comply with the "system" by changing your ways.
Yet more discrimination...!!

FWIW, Vicky Ten Capt, asked where his Loadmaster was to a rampy,, Capt thought Loadie was stuffing baggage into belly holds...So much for the educated flying club...

LL

escapee

14th Feb 2003, 12:48

Dear LL
There is nobody applying to do our job, thats why they have had a review and are giving the money, well to some anyway.;)

Oh yeah, take your own advice, if you don't like it PVR!!!

shandyman

14th Feb 2003, 12:49

Warm in the middle . . . .
Although I'm happy to be quoted as being unhappy with the leadership it was not my view that I was expressing but that of the board. You may not have had the opportunity to attend the brief but it was the briefing officers that suggestd that there was a serious lack of confidence amongst the trades in the leadership and upon recognition of this problem it was decided that action would be taken to remedy the problem.
'Nuff said.

left one o clock

14th Feb 2003, 14:01

Colleagues, whilst I too feel that there are many issues which have not been adressed by the review, I do believe a genuine attempt has been made.
I don't believe money is the prime gripe, consequently I don't believe it is a good solution. FRI are a blunt sword.
NCA (look how up to date I am) are intelligent people (on the whole) which is why their prime gripes are QOL issues such as career management and leadership. The first 'push' factor listed on the Review brief was lack of confidence in the leadership. This has been partly addressed by the attempt to place a new emphasis on the employment of MACR. Well overdue in my opinion. However, I believe the solution to the 'lack of respect' claim is partly in our own hands. If you want to be treated with respect, you have to walk the talk. Many of us just want to fly and act as if our rank is an inonvenience. This gets us treated like highly paid SACs. Like it or not we are SNCOs first and aircrew second. (That'll get me flamed for sure!)
To put my opinions in perspective, I'm in my 18th year (so only a part FRI for me) and will be getting out age 40. This is despite LOVING the job I do. We are nibbled to death by ducks and cash is not the answer.
Standing by to get punched.:O

Hertzsprung Russell

14th Feb 2003, 15:49

Left 1 o'clock ...

Not wanting to 'flame' or punch you but I think you'll find that you were employed primarily as AIRCREW, not as a SNCO. Unlike the commissioned GD aircrew variety who were primarily employed for General Duties.

Avtur

14th Feb 2003, 19:22

LogisticsLoader:

You sound like a UKMOANS type. (If you are not, you should be). So congratulations on being detested by every person that your trade encounters.

Oh! This is a Military AIRCREW site,.so find your own ramp to bounce on, or get back to your pond.

Left One O Clock: No punches from me!

WarmIn The Middle: Im glad you know who I am; If you are TC, HELP US HERE! , JS, hope your course went well, and if SP, how come you can afford to be on the Internet when you cant afford a round?

Spike

14th Feb 2003, 23:59

shandyman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said " it was the briefing officers that suggested that there was a serious lack of confidence amongst the trades in the leadership and upon recognition of this problem it was decided that action would be taken to remedy the problem"

NOTHING PERSONAL; CHOSEN FROM A CAST OF .....

Yes, I have attended the brief and I cannot understand why NCA - (okay, I am now on the "dark side") - knock almost EVERYTHING that is sent to try and improve our/your lot. I am now commissioned - and therefore detached in some/many people's view - but those who know me (some of you may recognize the nomenclature), know it takes a lot to rile me and, hopefully, realize that I do not type the following lightly.

RANT ON:

Many of you, again, are doing the NCA World an immense dis-service; the offer of a change of direction, however it is sold must not be seen as downbeat and nothing more than a pessimistic solution. There is positive in the recent review and it offers a new course of action to you as NCA. It is for you to take on this "offer" and make something of it; only then, finally and deservedly, will you achieve pay parity and avoid the "pay banding" discord! The empowerment (made up business phrase) of the NCA Cadre must now offer a positive future - if you are willing to take the plunge and work to make it succeed. Our/Your Overlords have punted for safety and set out the future. It is certainly better than some futures that might have been implemented! You must see that this future, now set, is somewhat more positive, for the majority, than that previously offered.

You have little choice if you do not agree with the decision of the AFB...TOUGH. It is the new reality. This is THE future path and, as compared to that that could have been offered, it is workable? I hope and believe so.
For once you must try to work for a common future - the proactive successful and forward thinking NCA progression - it is now a possibility, not just a "dream" as it may have seemed a few years ago. I "Wait out".....

left one o clock - Well said!

Always_broken_in_wilts

15th Feb 2003, 00:31

Spike,
.............., you said.......I am now commissioned....... our survey said..............:yuk: nuff said

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Spike

15th Feb 2003, 11:10

;)
Always_broken_in_wilts:

Good to see that your watering hole was open later than mine?

:}
Whatever my position I still believe there is some good in this study; the Review Body decided to target a specific audience and they appear, at first view, to have made some real progress. I am waiting to see what affect it will have on those outside that "target audience" and whether all proposals will synch into the forthcoming pension review and, hopefully, the soon to come reversal of the travesty that was/is Pay 2000(1)(2)?

Logistics Loader

15th Feb 2003, 15:35

Escapee:
I got no intention of pvr'ing....i get my lump sum next yr for doing my time..

Avtur:
U must be of the overpaid/underworked bookworm technician types..
Loggies may be detested by most trades...UNTIL the helium bubble bursts, then you need us to get you to where you need to with all your trollies and golf clubs/ski's etc for a deployment...not just the flying club to get you there....

LL

Charlie Luncher

15th Feb 2003, 23:26

Spike
Old fella you are doing just what you told everyone not by looking backwards ref pay 2000. It happened due to the lack of support given by your trade sponsors, didn’t help assessing a couple of camp trolley dolleys on 10s either.:eek:
Pay 2000 was another way of targeting a limited budget to trades that had problems with recruiting etc.
I feel the change could be good if you get on and work the system, if you sit back and bitch in the crewroom, well you will do the cadre a disservice. At the next board meeting of RAF Inc the questions will be asked as to how it has worked does it need more development or did they throw it back in our face perhaps it just could evolve for the better. Those who advocate they should get blueblood pay levels, go to cranditz and dance with the devil and earn it.

LL you and yours have to rate as one of the biggest pains in the harris of my career to date thankfully we manage very well without you, in fact it only turns to rat when you lot get in the way - my sympathies to those who deal with LL and his lot on a daily basis
:*

Mad_Mark

15th Feb 2003, 23:45

I second what Charlie says,

LL we have managed to load bags, golf clubs, bikes, B-B-Q's, triwall boxes, lacons, etc, onto our aircraft for years without one of your type in sight!

Stop feeling so self important! I too feel sorry for the truckie fleet, having to put up with 'them' :yuk: all the time.

MadMark!!! :mad:

Charlie Luncher

15th Feb 2003, 23:55

MM

You are forgetting the Ride-on mower, kiddies climbing frame and my favourite two motorbikes.
Not bad given what we have to work with:}
but then we do have lots of experience with the rations

Stan Bydike

16th Feb 2003, 06:24

Charlie,

I remember the saga of the first ride on mower well. In those days (mid 80s) the pound was significantly higher against the dollar and loads of savings could be made.

The ac landed at BZN to drop some guys off. Customs said we had to unload the ac totally to clear as it was the first port of entry.

As the mower appeared out the door - head customs man said thanks very much. Won't be necessary to unload - off you go to Kinloss.

Seem to remember that the movers stood and watched and offered no assistance whatsoever.

That, of course, was the first - been many more mowers ridden across the pond since

WarmInTheMiddle

16th Feb 2003, 08:17

;) Spike: Like the cut of your gyb fella – judging by some of the responses you’ve had so far, it would appear that not everyone is discarding the positive side of the AASS.

Charlie Luncher: Agree totally – especially your “dance with devil” advice – Cranditz will always be a cakewalk for any average NCA……. By the way have you done any more sparring with “Rawmeat” lately? – I hear he’s slowed down a bit with old age……..

LL: Thought about reporting your posts to a moderator – not for their tone or the opinions you express (they are your right after all) – but for your appalling command of the English language. On balance though, I had such a laugh at your vain attempt to throw a grenade into this thread that I decided that we’d be better off leaving you out there. The morale boost you provide is welcome – it’s so satisfying to know that single-celled organisms like you still harbour jealousy towards our flying club…….

Avtur: (Chuckle) You still haven’t spotted (clue) who I am have you………..
:cool:

Spike

16th Feb 2003, 15:28

Charlie Luncher:

"Old fella you are doing just what you told everyone not by looking backwards ref pay 2000."

:O
I apologize for any mixed message you may have perceived.

My referral to Pay 2000 was intended to point out how the empowerment of the NCA Cadre could allow for the future review of all NCA pay scales, once 12 months have passed post the AASS. Nothing more.

My concerns were/are for the future. Specifically how all NCA, and those that give a damn about their progression towards a comparable standing with all other aircrew, must now look at many issues (AASS implementation, pension reviews, restructuring at sqn level for pay re-banding assessments, AIPs for Qs other than SAR EIEC, flying pay issues, better kit trials and provision, manning and employment issues etc). This review will ease the way towards many positives, and achieving pay parity is certainly one, but the work must begin now. This "synch" I referred to is where my true concerns lie. The pan-branch empowerment and MACR SO3 posts is something that must be got right. I truly believe that certain parts of the Study will give NCA, present and future, a worthwhile career path, that, with further work, can offer many options for personal and professional development.

My original post was a plea to the 'bleeding hearts' to look more deeply and see what the future now offers, they must accept the writing on the wall and work towards making it function. This Study, although not a panacea, is but the first move towards a potentially much brighter future.....
:=

6nandneutral

16th Feb 2003, 16:15

LL
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you and many of your fellow LLs, for keeping a lot of us in a job. As long as you keep scr*wing up, our jobs will be secure.

Logistics Loader

17th Feb 2003, 10:17

FWIW,

I had an extremely long shift, coupled with screaming kids at home = lack of sleep...hence few grammatical errors.

However my command of English is far better than some peoples command of thinking they can do everyone elses job.. An old school mate of mine, joined up as an L Tech ST...(flight Sim Tech) for the uneducated..he was surprised at what was involved in certain other trades..It is not my intention to inflame/offend anyone in particular!! If you feel offended...Tough!! freedom of speech allows me to voice my humble opinion/view.

In my career i have had the misfortune to dent 1 aircraft...
Engineers were very good about fixing it..thank heavens for speed tape...covered the scrape nicely..and it was only a scrape..
I do recall seeing an individual drop his metal toolbox onto the floor of a Wilts truck once.He calmly covered the resulting hole with black nasty and said it would do a trip, because we were going back to base.

Even better, a shiny fleet type, was seen to be practising wheelies on the pan, somewhere in deepest Oxon. Was it the Loggies who failed to load it correctly??? (heavy load gone to rear of frame would have tipped it nicely)..
No!!
It was our fixing type brothers...faulty fuel gauge i believe was the answer..i will stand corrected if it wasn't that..
Result = aircraft write off..

Also recall a story told to me years ago about an aircraft crash, whereby the it was claimed the load had moved in flight..causing loss of control..
When wreckage was investigated..the load was still attached to the floor and was in fairly good condition, therefore eliminating the load moving in flight as the cause. Believe it was the drivers fault in the end..

Similar to recent incident where tactical fleet from across the pond were practising low level runs for a tank drop, however, on the practise runs they hadn't loaded the tank.
On the day of the display, aircraft ran in low, complete with 25+ ton of deadweight in back end, result was aircraft hit the ground as tank despatched, Loadie survived i believed by clinging to tank as it left aircraft..no other survivors..

keep smiling..
LL

escapee

17th Feb 2003, 11:36

LL
I fail to see the point of your last post. What were you trying to say?:hmm:

swinging monkey

17th Feb 2003, 12:41

LL

I wish I was as important as you seem to think you are

left one o clock

17th Feb 2003, 14:05

We seem to have drifted a bit off message hear guys. The start point of this thread was the outcome of the AA Sustainability Review.:p

Biggus

17th Feb 2003, 14:13

Left one o'clock

ALL threads drift "off message", it is actually just a question of how long it takes. This thread has actually done better than most in staying on track until now!!

Charlie Luncher

17th Feb 2003, 18:38

WarmInTheMiddle

Dude I am still trying to find something to beat him with, the only thing that seems to work is to challenge him to beer, as he still drinks like a girl, and then do a few rounds in a minivan after he has slowed a bit. It is all very laid back out here, no worries and all so I may go for the make love not war approach!

Spike are you on ISS at the mo?:p

LL I heard a few stories in a crewroom once too :eek:

Always_broken_in_wilts

17th Feb 2003, 21:38

LL,
Good skills fella, as you are now justifying why the rest of the 3 services refer to you lot as Muppets :p

Keep up the good work...............cos you are fast becoming a legend in your own mind:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

TheSeeFarShadow

18th Feb 2003, 15:19

Spike,
Are you the imfamous 'Spike's a nob', as per the whole Nimrod MR fleets's radar scatchpads?

WarmInTheMiddle

18th Feb 2003, 16:26

OK – back to the thread then (ish).

The whole Flying Pay (FP) issue has a definite whiff about it – particularly when viewed in the context that NCA with “E” and “LM” brevets carry out exactly the same airborne duties as their officer counterparts. The same can also be said of some AEO employment (SAR Helo WinchOps, E-3D Surv/ESMOps and Dominie PAs).

However, there are AEO flying duties that have no direct read-across from the AEOp duties (MR2 - including captaincy, R1 – including Mission Cdr and E-3D – including Tac Director/Weapons Controller) and cannot be filled by AEOps fulfilling duties on the same platforms.

In a completely non-belligerent way, I would welcome comment (informed or otherwise – after all, that’s half the fun of this site….) on whether WSOps should expect to be paid equivalent FP to that of WSOs who are fulfilling duties that, ultimately, demand greater responsibility (and, in this litigious age, accountability). This is not another grenade by the way. The measures brought in by the AASS will soon see many NCA and officers wearing the same brevet. The impact of DE WSOs and bled-through ex Navs into the WSO cadre will possibly result in reduced NCA in-branch commissioning opportunities. It will be interesting to see what FP rates are paid to these disparate feeds into the WSO branch.

Escapee: I’ve worked out who you are, by the way, from your posts on this and other threads, - you almost type in a Welsh accent!

Keep Smilin’*/Moanin’*

*Delete as applicable.

Mad_Mark

18th Feb 2003, 20:32

WarmInTheMiddle,

whether WSOps should expect to be paid equivalent FP to that of WSOs who are fulfilling duties that, ultimately, demand greater responsibility

Is that not why Queenie pays WSO's more of her shillings than she does the WSOp's :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

Always_broken_in_wilts

18th Feb 2003, 22:33

Folks,
The flying pay issue will be addressed quite simply by the demise of the Officer cadre. The supposed empowering of MACR into important posts is nothing but a cost saving measure, less flying pay - smaller pension - smaller handshake - which if I, "billy f@@kwit - no o levels - and a lowly ALM to boot can spot then surely the rest of you rocket scientists outthere must be able to see it as well.

And the assumption that anyone, apart from your average spotty faced civvy youth of course..............pre supposing the newly empowered MACR at the CIO is prepared to lie in the manner that his current "O" counterpart is so adept at, will be fooled with the new method of getting bums on seats for the kipper fleet just defies all logic.

And if anyone is daft enough to believe that after one or two tours kippering you will be given the chance to clear off and have a go at ALM or Eng..........................HELLO:yuk:

The only correct thing to come out of the review is that we on the shop floor percieve our superiors to be [email protected] in my humble opinion they have confirmed in writing.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Left_one_and_right

21st Feb 2003, 13:48

Thank you, thank you, for making my mind up for me!

I have only two years left to my IPP and GUESS WHAT? No money for me so..... its time to go!

The review has missed the point completely, we know that. Congratulations to the two MACR on the team - for those of you who have done well...and you know who you are....well done!!

Just a small point for anyone coming up to their IPP - did you hear today that the EU are thinking of amending the rules for Tax Free lump sums for anyone taking a pension?
If it goes ahead (think - more money to the treasury ??) it will be on the books in TWO YEARS !!

Get out while you can with a bit more dosh!!

As for what to do when I leave - Anyone want their house rewiring??!!:eek:

Hertzsprung Russell

21st Feb 2003, 20:18

WARMINTHEMIDDLE

"However, there are AEO flying duties that have no direct read-across from the AEOp duties (MR2 - including captaincy, R1 – including Mission Cdr and E-3D – including Tac Director/Weapons Controller) and cannot be filled by AEOps fulfilling duties on the same platforms"

Why not ? No reason why they couldn't do these 'AEO' jobs with new 'empowerment' of MACR etc. In fact many AEOps could probably do a better job !

Typed with an English accent, H-R ;)

Holer Moler

21st Feb 2003, 23:11

Why should NCO aircrew recieve flying pay! Iam sure any up and coming young thruster would do your job for no FP and just be grateful to be flying. Boys the 2nd world war has finished, the RAF can't go on living of the past.

Yes! I agree a pilot earns his keep but even if you dictated his/her terms and conditions prior to employing them they too would fly for no FP. After all they will leave the service with a few thousand hrs, which will stand them in good stead to seek a civil job.

With the exeption of the Flight Engineer, what else can other members of the RAF NCO flying faterity do in civy st--- F----l.

The Gorilla

21st Feb 2003, 23:33

DR Whites

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNN!!

:p

Always_broken_in_wilts

22nd Feb 2003, 02:28

:p
Why is it that whenever a subject like this comes along the "tampon" has to rear his ugly ill informed head:yuk:

"Why should NCO aircrew recieve flying pay!"

I did think of all sorts of suitable answers like -

" how many decisions do you make on a daily basis that can, if wrong, kill sh@t loads of people"

or

" after completing GST1 + 2 as both Cpl and Sgt I found the AAITC the hardest thing I have ever endured"

or

"how many times a year do you have your professional competancy checked.......by the sound of your diatribe....never"

or

The list goes on and on:rolleyes:

But then I thought why not fall back on the tried and tested responses to your sort.............the reason NCO Aircrew get flying pay is

"because they can and YOU can't"

"cos they worked harder at school than blunties like "sanitory man"

"they really enjoy winding up the city fathers and the like by being better paid"

"they enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that whingeing tw@ts like "Dr W", let face the only wings you will ever get are if you purchase "always", are incapable of ever aspiring to their level of achievment due to either lack of education, lack of fitness or LMF:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

The Gorilla

22nd Feb 2003, 12:43

Always

Very well said me old.
Sorry, I couldn't get passed the yawning stage!!

Compared to other threads, this one has done very well
in not attracting nutters like Admin Guru etc etc.

Until now..........

:D

WarmInTheMiddle

22nd Feb 2003, 19:44

H-R, you miss my point (deliberately?). There is no doubt that many (but not all) AEOps – especially those individuals who have been merit-promoted over the past 13 years or so - have the potential and ability to perform any AEO role. The intention was not to impugn the abilities of any AEOp - I used to be one after all. My point was that unless they’re changing aircraft type, newly commissioned Engs/ALMs can return immediately from the brain change/removal at Cranwell, to do exactly the same job as their NCA colleagues. In contrast, Ab-initio AEOs posted to mainstream ac (MR2, E-3D, R1) take on a totally new role that requires full OCU training followed by sqn categorization. In this way there is no direct read-across - nuff said?

The AE brevet affords considerably better commissioning opportunities than any other NCA specialization. An 18-year old DE AEOp currently has a much better chance of achieving Wg Cdr rank than his ALM/Eng counterparts – particularly if commissioned under age 25. The AEO role allows those individuals who aspire to MR2 captaincy, R1 mission command and E-3D Tac Directorship, to achieve their goals. Furthermore, this strengthens the position of the AE brevet within the WSO/Op branch. Always Broken In Wilts trumpets the death knell of the rear crew officer cadre, and that may be true in terms of the Eng/ALM specializations because of the “read-across” factor. The same cannot be said of the AEO specialization, thankfully.

My message to any AEOp is to take Charlie Luncher’s advice - put your ability where your mouth is by entering the commissioning competition. If you don’t aspire to commissioned duties, that’s fine – a broad range of AEOp employments remain available. If those employments don’t meet your requirements, either leave the Service while you are still young enough for a second career or wait until IPP and leave with some money.

Left 1 and Right – Chap, (or Man) you haven’t changed a bit (unless you’ve had a nose job that is…….) – the 2 Macr on the AASS did the best that they could under the circumstances and so your sarcasm is ill-targeted. Were you only hanging on for the money then? My house doesn’t need re-wiring so………….BYE BYE
:}

Keep Smilin'*/Moanin'*

* Delete as Applicable

ENG

23rd Feb 2003, 16:20

I am pleased that at last AA are about to be paid in line with their commissioned aircrew peers. I use the word peers because for too many years now we have treated certain specialisation in the aircrew world with utter disdain. (I'm better than you etc).

I hope a 'common brevet' will allow greater movement of personnel throughout the aircrew world and maybe remove the snobbery that surrounds the employement of suitably qualified NCA to pilot duties.

Unfortunately, I have several reservations with the pay review. It seems from a read through that PAS FS/MACR will be barred from commissioning. This will probably drive our youngest and brightest out of the AA branches. Additionally, the empowering of MACR, irrespective of their abilities, will in my view be the most damaging result of this review. Without a commissioned voice in the future each and everyone of you is going to have no representation at that level and will almost certainly be left out of any decision making at squadron executive level and beyond.

This pay policy will turn you into well-paid button pushers, removing any hope of having commission representation in the future.

WarmInTheMiddle

23rd Feb 2003, 16:36

Eng: Agree with your sentiments entirely regarding officer representation - it's sort of what I was getting at in my last post. As far as the NCA PAS goes though, I'd disagree on one aspect. The PAS will, surely, only be offered to individuals as an option beyond the 22-year point. It will undoubtedly contain some bright operators - but none of them will be spring chickens...........:}

2ndclasscitizen

24th Feb 2003, 20:11

No job outside according to Dr White?

Ever heard of project Jigsaw?

Oil companies are moving towards the use of Super Pumas instead of rig support vessels, the CAA say they can do it as long as they have SAR qualified rear crew, (min 1 yrs experience).

STARTING pay min 44K max 51K, this rises incrementally for 10 yrs.

Extra cash for paramedic qual, intstuctor tick, fire fighting etc.

2 weeks on 2 weeks off. 12 hrs on/off while on shift.

4 weeks leave a year, (and yes you can take it over your 2 weeks on period).

Travel to and from embarcation airport paid for, so live where you want.

At the moment it is only Shell I believe but exxon and BP are looking with interest.

And guess what SARTU at Valley are going to do some of the training. DHFS making cash.

Will the last NCA out of the SAR farce please turn off the lights.

Left_one_and_right

27th Feb 2003, 16:41

2ndclasscitizen - a little OTT on the salary, but not by much (more info if required).

WarmInTheMiddle - PW, right era but smaller nose. Although I do hear that Gonzo is considering a career change and is thinking of becoming a plumber!!

I fear that you missed my point twixt the moanin'. There is no incentive to stay in past 22 years. Indeed a 10k pension and 30k (taxman permitting) is a positive incentive to go, especially if you have a job to go to (I refer the Hon gentleman to the posting from 2ndclasscitizen ). Throwing money at those who were going to stay in untill their 22 point anyway has created a lot of bad feeling amongst those who are at, or just past, that point. Watch this space RE Jigsaw.

You say that I should not have had a go at the team as 'they' did your best under the circumstances. I was under the impression that this review started with a 'clean sheet of paper' and 'no preconceptions'!! Please explain what you mean.:confused:

WarmInTheMiddle

28th Feb 2003, 08:42

:O Left One And Right: PW - firstly, profuse and abject apologies for confusing you with Gonzo – on second thoughts, I may actually have some re-wiring work (on my mother-in-law’s new chair) to put your way.

Ref the AASS. The Service has never actually been very worried about people who leave at the 22-year point. As the first IPP for NCA, 22 years is an expected source of exits and is THE major factor considered by Strategic Manpower Planners when they set annual recruiting targets. That the AFCOs have failed dismally to achieve those targets over the past 6 years or so stands as an indictment of the Service’s recruiting directorate at Cranwell. Most people serving beyond 22 years have guaranteed employment at £40k+ per year and, if not already engaged to age 55, the chance to achieve that engagement (if they’re good enough) via the annual re-engagement board. By and large then, the Service doesn’t expect to lose many of the “service to 55” mob either.

As they are in place for 3 years, the AASS measures actually target people from the 14-year point onwards. The bean-counters have focussed specifically on those individuals who, when beyond the 12-year point, opt to start new careers and tell the Service to st*ff their pension. £13k net might (just) be enough to keep some of those people in to that magical 22-year point. I could suggest an entirely cynical reason for choosing the 14-17 years (and a bit for the 18-20 year boys) group. Somewhere, someone in the Treasury has moved a (limited total amount) award “bracket” up and down a spreadsheet of the entire 12-22 year NCA cadre until the award figure roughly matches (ie does not exceed) that limited total amount……. No, forget I said that…….

I’ve not had a chance to speak to the 2 Macr on the AASS team and so do not know their personal views on the outcome of the AASS. What I do know is that the one with the same initials as you has never been anyone’s poodle. However, given that the 2 Macr enjoyed unprecedented (members of the rear crew officer cadre were not included in similar studies) access to the workings of the AASS, I begin to wonder what people actually expected them to achieve. Beyond ensuring that ALL the issues that concerned NCA were considered by the AASS, the 2 Macr, like the officers on the AASS, could only make recommendations for the AFBSC (and the Treasury) to consider - hence my phrase "under the circumstances" - also, see below for some groundrules.

Which sort of brings us back to the original subject of the thread – What did people actually expect from the AASS? Moreover, instead of picking the study apart, why not make (realistic) suggestions about what should have been done? Only 2 rules (as I’m sure the 2 Macr quickly found out) apply when making any suggestions: 1. There is little, if any new money available. 2. The minute you begin forming the words “special case for NCA” in your mind, remember that the Treasury will laugh you out of court…...

Keep Smilin’*/Moanin’*

*Delete as applicable

P.S. Once again PW – sorry for confusing you with Gonzo
:O

P.P.S. I definitely have no need of a plumber......;)

Gonzo5680

28th Feb 2003, 16:15

Afternoon All!

I see that someone has been using my name (and facial features) in vain! Identity theft is a crime, just ask the old man back from South Africa.

WarmInTheMiddle
You are obviously someone I have had dealings with in the past and profess to know how I think! Well, I agree with the remarks of LeftOneAndRight. At the moment I am lucky enough to be in a job that I really do enjoy. What the future holds? Who knows? I will wait and see!

LeftOneAndRight
I'll see you soon.:eek:

Its Friday, so I'm off home for a beer.

left_one_and_right1

1st Mar 2003, 08:14

Gonzo
Sorry Guv, I'll keep my lips zipped in future!

WITM
Thanks for the insight but I don't think it changes my view about life on the outside. Have a look at the 'would you encourage your children to join' forum. There are a lot of people who have made a good life for themselves outside and I think that I'll join them.
By the way, I thought that you were PW! (Wit M):O

left_one_and_right1

2nd Mar 2003, 20:50

Back to the thread.

There are some good things to come out of this review but it would depend on how they are handled. The proposed change to training is one of them.

I am very much in favour of re-training. It keeps the individual fresh and on their toes.

One problem though. How do you persuade a 18/19 year old to join as NCA when all he/she wants to be is say, a Chinook crewman? Do you say ‘well you are NCA first and a crewman second’ (as you would with a commissioned pilot ‘officer first – pilot second’). Or do you say ‘well you will more than likely have to do five years in a job of our choosing (depending on where we are short of people). At the end of that you might have a chance of being retrained to the specialisation that you are interested in’. How will the recruiters manage that, bearing in mind that some of them will be MACR themselves?
Can you imagine what the interest would be in commissioned service in the RAF if everyone who joined were told ‘well, we will make you an officer first and then we will decide later if you go Ops Support, Admin Sec or Navigator’?
Interesting and I wait to see how it is handled.

Always_broken_in_wilts

3rd Mar 2003, 05:04

Left etc,
Call me an old cynic:rolleyes: , many do, but I see this new "wheel", as do many many others in a completely differant light to you.

It seems blindingly obvious to me that in order to fill all the "unpopular" seats first you need to initially remove an individuals right to select his/hers desired trade. By making everyone join as NCA then selecting their trade specialisation for them, irrespective of the individuals wishes, you are merely making the binsworth bods job easy and consigning people to jobs they really do not want to do. Not an ideal situation.

It's an established fact that recruiting guys for the kipper fleet is bl@@dy difficult and if I were a betting man then I would have my mortgage on the first bunch of poor misguided souls, anyone know a CIO that ever told the WHOLE truth:rolleyes: , will be destined for Ice Station Kilo, with many more to follow:p

As for the proposed chance to retrain...........pleeeease:rolleyes: Speak to the guys in the rotary world about how difficult it is to move across to fixed wing. You have to have either crashed or be on the long term sick list to escape, and this is primarily to do with manpower shortages but also to do with the cost involved with re-training.

Do you seriously believe that the poor soul who gets sent to the frozen north, spends two tours getting up to speed, is going to suddenly be offered the chance to become the Eng/Alm he always wanted......good grief:rolleyes:

Just imagine you are a beancounter faced with the two following options:-

a We have an experianced kipper mate who wants to go Alm. We bring the next NCA thru as Aeop, long course at Cranwell followed by OCU followed by further training on the squadron. This allows our already experianced kipper mate to leave Kilo for Cranwell to start training as Alm, followed by OCu etc. This equals 2 Cranwell course, 2 OCU's etc etc etc:eek:

b We have experianced kipper mate who wants to go Alm. But if we bring the next NCA thru as ALM this only costs us 1 Cranwell course and 1 OCU etc.....................hum tough choice this one:p

Factor in all the admin charges, removals etc, involved with moving people from station to station and I am convinced the money will simply not be there. This is nothing more than a very clever move, by stealth, to get bums on seats and has nothing to do with empowering the individual with the opportunity to shape their future.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced