Pofessional Aviator Spine

[Follow Me Through]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/aircrewretention/index.html

As a recent leaver I am interested to know how this has been received around the crewrooms and mess bars? Too late for me but does it make the vocal ones on PPrune want to stay?:cool:

[BEagle]

Thanks - first sight I've had of this.

5 years and 1 day left to serve on intro. of PAS = Enhanced Pension.

4 years and 364 days left to serve on intro. of PAS = Current Pension. About £1177 less on 'shadow' rates for those 5 years for a SA Sqn Ldr, if my sums are correct.

So for 2 days less service you'll be nearly £1200 worse off for every year you remain alive. Hmmmm.....will that make anyone over 50 on intro of PAS want to stay in? Why the '5 year rule' in any case - has this age discrimination been explained? Without it, even I would have a pension enhanced by about £620 per annum (at shadow rates) if I stayed in until the bitter end, which would presumably be index-linked .... Over 20 years, even invested at only 3% and assuming index linking to be only 2%, I estimate that would represent a loss of some £20446.........

[Stan Bydike]

Well spotted Follow Me Through. Doesn't appear to be the all time good deal that was first mooted.*

Need to look carefully at the figures but correct me if I am wrong but on first glance it appears that enhanced pension will still be paid when you leave. Not held to 55. Which I know worried quite a few folk.


*Looks like past service as aircrew is not considered when calculating PAS Pension so not great for those currently Spec Aircrew but OK for those still to take the plunge

[BlueWolf]

Jesus suffering fvuck.

People put their lives and limbs, livelihoods, inherited genetic integtrity, sanity, and Christ knows what else on the line for Queen and Country, and at their elected end of tenure they are faced with this sort of bull**** from some bunch of pencil necks who will a) never have to offer such a sacrifice, and b) were always going to be the benefactors of it in the first place.

Where the hell is the sense, or justice, in any of it?

"Yes, you saved the nation, but you were two days short when you pulled out, so we're going to give the extra money you should have been entitled to, to some of the people against whom you were fighting, who are now refugees, instead."

Hello?

In New Zealand, and I presume it is the same in Britain....if you make love to a girl at one minute to midnight on the day before her sixteenth birthday, you commit a cime and a sin, and you will serve seven to ten years at Her Majesty's pleasure for it. Wait two minutes, and the law is not remotely interested.

I ask, of you Ppruners, as informed, intelligent, and genuine people, do you think any of this makes sense? If it does, then I'm bugg.ered if I can see it, and Sheffield Consulting Group tells me that my IQ is 172. Whatever the fvuck that may mean.

Wait two more days and you are a war hero, entitled to greater benefits.
Pull out two days earlier, and what you may have done, or offered, or been prepared and willing to do, during five years of service is worth so much less.

Tap tap tap....

Hello?

Regulations such as this are put together by sad, follically-challenged, anal-retentive, bifocal-wearing moles who don't have a real ife, and are passed into law by inept, egotistical, fantasy-dwelling, sycophantic morons, who, like spaniels and whores, demand nothing other than that people should like them.

Is a little ordinary common sense, from those who set, interpret, and implement Government regulations, too much to ask for?

[RubiC Cube]

So what happened to the "retiring on the equivalent of a Group Captain's pension"?

[Max Contingency]

Not only can we forget the much talked about Gp Capt pension, we can forget about a Wg Cdr pension as well. The figures on the table at todays rates with 34 years rekonable service are:

Gp Capt - £32953
Wg Cdr - £28460

PAS Pilot - £25961
PAS Nav - £24913
PAS Rear Crew - £24497

Shed a tear for the 38 yr+ general list Sqn Ldrs who for what ever reason feel that they won't make Wg Cdr. They face the prospect of retiring on £21969 with no automatic rights to transfer to PAS.

It strikes me that the most lucrative way to leave the Service now is to assimilate to PAS at age 38 take your 50K retention bonus and time your PVR to coincide with exactly 5 years later. This will see you off with an immediate pension of £15125 (22 yrs rekonable service = £13945 +5yrs at 64.7p per day PAS supplement) and still be young enough to get a look in with the airlines.

As a package, it is better than what we had. Does it go far enough? Probably not. :(

[radish]

As a 40 y o spec aircrew fella the pension argument says "go PA" to me, but until the full terms are published in Feb I do not know the catches, or am I missing something??

[Jeep]

Nice to see the RAF slant on things, what about the AAC/FAA, is it any different? Come on AAC, publish your website address with all the details. Or can't you?

[Klingon]

Wonder what happens to those who are not able to get the 5 year qualifying time in but are then offered continuance beyond 55, subsequently clocking up the hours?

Will they be offered PAS retrospectively so as to benefit from the enhanced pension? A horses backside!:confused:

[Old Bus Driver]

Max Contingency

I think your "most lucrative way to leave the service" figures are a bit out. You get a slightly reduced pension if you PVR- after 22 years its 13293 (+5years at 64.7p a day) = 14473

Our pensions are still a long way short of the maximum figures allowed by the Inland Revenue. Assuming you served a full career of 34 years and retired on the top rate of PAS - 61473, the max pension allowed by the Inland Revenue would be 34834. That's considerably more than the 25961 currently on offer.

The max allowable figure is based on 1/60th of final years salary for each year of service up to a max of 40/60ths.

I heard recently that the pension scheme for members of parliment is based on 1/40th which perhaps puts in to perspective just how much we are valued by our political masters.

[Taggart]

Like many others I have waited with keen anticipation for the PAS and while I reserve final judgement, come off it boys with all the whinging! Did not a previous Aircrew Briefing Pack make it clear that we would not get gp capt pensions? And, by my reckoning if a flt lt serves the maximum time on the PAS hs penison is about 12% greater than the maximum on Spec Aircrew terms. Also, we cannot expect a final salary pension (based on the £61k top level) when no one else in the military yet has such a deal. Overall, it's not that bad at all - following 2 FRIs, now a PAS and HOPEFULLY something for AA later in the year. So, please stop the incessant whinging and give it a fair wind! Not a bad deal given that the rest of the military will have to wait years before their pension terms might improve! Our reputation is frequently undermined by a core of greedy, ever-complaining and selfish old queens who should know better! There is always the exit door!
PS: I remember the FRI had a 5 year return of service, Treasury imposed I think, so it must be the payback for the PAS. Also, not one to support our illustrious MPs but they do pay 18% of salary to their pension scheme!!!

[flipster]

I have heard it rumoured that BA, Virgin etc have all reduced their pension benefits for recent recruits. Would someone who has made the leap in the past months care to comment? How do such pensions compare with PAS?

[Miserable Old Git]

As far as I can see it’s a good deal: better pay and a better pension. C’mon, who honestly believed they would be retiring with a Gp Capt’s pension?

Only two things worry me:

1. Is the time between the formal announcement of the PAS terms of service and the latest return date for election forms (19Mar03) enough to get good advice? Especially for those of us overseas who have no access to the normal ‘home base’ admin back up?

2. If one decides to accept PAS, complete the minimum 5 years and then PVR. Will you get an immediate pension as you leave or will you have to wait to 55?

Number two is the one that really interests me, no coconut for guessing why.

Lastly I have a strange feeling of mistrust. If it is the good deal it seems, where is the catch? What do I lose by transferring from Spec Aircrew to PAS. Does anybody know?

[Mmmmnice]

The amount of debate going on suggests that it is a close run thing as to whether or not one is better off with the PAS. Every individual will have to crunch the numbers very carefully to see which way to go - the old knackers with 5-6 years to go on SATOS will only make a few bob extra.
What about AIP? will it be applied retrospectively? or will all that blood sweat and tears at CFS count for nothing (moolah obviously - one will still have that contented feeling of self-worth to keep one warm at night ha!)
Guess I'll just have to keep that evening job on the check-out at Tescos a little bit longer!!

[Tonkenna]

Has anyone actually seen this info come from Handbrake House, or is it as I suspect, the best way to find anything out is look here? I have just handed out all this stuff at work as no one here knew about it.

Tonks:mad:

[BEagle]

Tonks - it appeared in our in-trays here today.

Personally, I feel really happy at reading that the primary benefit of PAS is for an improved pay and pension rate compared with SATOS, since I'm excluded by positive age discrimination from transferring.....

Will this be a succesful retention incentive? Don't know. But I was chatting - as one does - with the Head of CAA Personnel Licensing recently. The Authority know that there will be a large requirement for airline pilots in the next 2 years (more than 1000...), so if you haven't started looking at your ATPL yet, mate, I suggest that you do! By the way - have you seen that there are now formal accreditation rights towards civil FI(A) ratings for current SEP QFIs like you?

Dare I ask about your A2.....

[Tonkenna]

Hi BEagle,

Private Message on its way.

Tonks:)

[radish]

I am detached away from UK at the moment, so have not seen "the stuff" referred to above; if it is accessible on the web anywhere would someone please post a link for us poor unfortunates on the many Dets?

[BEagle]

See http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/aircrewretention/index.html . Nothing yet on the AFPRB pay award recommendations for this year yet though.

[Miserable Old Git]

Radish,

try www.raf.mod.uk/news/aircrewretention/

It's the letter from the Air Sec, Jan 03

Hope that help

MOG

[Capt. Clarence Over]

I've checked through the numbers for basic pay and I'm confused (it's not a new occurence for me). I understand fully the following statement from the Air Sec

'The principle that underpins the PAS is that it will offer more attractive rates of pay and pension than those currently on offer under SATOS. Thus, all eligible specialist aircrew should benefit financially by transferring to the PAS. '

But, if I accept Spec Aircrew at my 38/16, I'll get the 'On Appointment', rate - 49,147.00. Whereas if I accept PAS I'll get the next level up from level 9 Flt Lt - 47,617. In other words I'll be 1530 quid down if I accept PAS.

I'm not in the UK at the moment and have no bluntie support, can anyone show me the error of my ways?

Confused of Florida

[Stan Bydike]

Capt Clarence,

I think it is all semantics - allcurrent SA will not lose out on transfer. However, if you arn't already SA you will not have the option to go SA as it ceases to exist from 1 Apr. So you won't lose out, will you:confused:

And for current SA Sqn Ldr Navs @ AEO 's. They will lose out in salary terms as the caps set for them are less than current Level 9 Sqn Ldr plus their respective rates of FP. But of course, on the day they transfer they don't lose out:confused: Its only as they approach the caps

Edited to include:

And of course, those pay rates were not give as an illustration in the paperwork. Were they?