Deep Vein Thrombosis - or just being difficult?

[piotr]

As a frequent flyer, something has been nagging me for a while.

Being 6'3" and some 22 stone (before you comment, I am a rugby player, not a McDonalds shareholder :D ), I am usually fairly squashed in and uncomfortable in most economy seat configurations and, conscious of DVT and similar dangers, always make a point of stretching my legs at least once per hour and drinking a lot of water.

On about 3-4 recent flights, when I got up to stretch my legs (in between meal times, etc.) I was effectively told to sit back down by the stewardesses. In some a/c there simply is nowhere to stand without being in the way. On a recent flight I tried to stand in/near the back galley because I had leg cramp, I was told to sit down, the stewardess told me I was in the way and there was nowhere else for me to stand on the a/c. I refused, and an argument ensued to the point where I was afraid that I will become accused of instigating an air rage incident, and I decided to sit down, still with leg cramp.

Are airlines being unreasonable? What is the legal situation in such a case?

On a similar note, last week I was on one of these super-economy carrriers to Spain, where everything was chargeable extra. Good idea in order to provide affordable tickets - BUT I asked for water, and was told I had to pay. They only had bottled water for sale. As it happened, I did not have any cash with me. Again, aren't carriers legally required to provide basics such as a free drink of water on the flight?

[bealine]

Unfortunately, the legal situation is that you must obey the lawful instructions of the Flight Crew. I would imagine that they had work to prepare or carry out and that you would have been in trhe way. Similarly, the Captain has the right to insist on all passengers returning to their seats and buckling up their seat belts in the event of approaching bad weather.

If the thought of DVT bothers you, give our British Airways Reservations Line a call (UK 0845 33 777 33) or (USA 1-800-AIRWAYS) and ask for a copy of our leaflet "The Healthy Traveller".

There are a variety of exercises to keep the circulation going which you can do in your seat, if it's not convenient for you to be strolling through the cabin.

As regards the water situation, presumably you used a "no-frills" carrier. Unfortuntely, bottled water carries a cost and the carrier must recover it, either by charging you more for the ticket, or by charging you for the bottle! (The subject of aircraft tank water, and its safety, has been discussed previously in this forum and the general consensus of opinion was that "bottled water was safest" so the stewardess did the right thing by not offering you a cup of water from the galley!)

Unfortunately, "no-frills" is exactly that!!!

[Globaliser]

Would the low-fare carriers still have water fountains attached to the loos, though, for use in an emergency when one is thirsty but has no cash?

Piotr could also nick a copy of High Life and dismantle it, the next time he flies BA. (Not that nicking is quite the right word, considering the open invite to do so ...)

[Xenia]

I have no experience with low cost airlines, however I believe a glass of water from the galley could be offered to piotr.
It comes from the potable water tank, for sure it is not as good and pure as all bottled brands, but it is still the same water we make tea and coffee from! ;)
Unfortunately water fountains are not available in B737 .... and when they are present (specific types of A/C) it's the same water from the same potable water tank I was on before.

[Conchi]

Potable water fountains are available on most B767.
Must agree and confirm all potable water in the aircraft comes from the same potable water tank. Galley taps, water boilers (for hot drinks) and drinking fountains.
I believe nobody ever died or got badly ill for drinking from that particular water.
Thanks go trough toric cleaning process quite often, I agree is not from the highest mountains, but a glass of water should never be refused to a pax.
I understand no frills means no frills, but I just wonder about something, what will the crew do in a medical emergency situation? will they charge the ill pax for the water? please do not jump on me, it is just a question ;)
I understand sometimes can be difficult to stand in the middle of the isle during a service, but I can't see why not when there are not services going on, and the fasten seat belt signs are off :D :D :D
We all have different needs and maybe some pax wish to sleep for the whole duration of the flight, while others wish to have a little walk around to strech their legs. This under my point of view is more than reasonable and understandable, especially on medium or long haul flights.

[bealine]

Hell, Conchi, don't give Mr O'Leary ideas!!!;)

[PAXboy]

I carry a small bottle of water on ALL flights. delays at the gate, in the bus to the machine, waiting for departure when they cannot serve. Also, a simple flapjack (UK name) or similar that is NOT chocholate but will sustain if you were hungry evenn before the delay started!

On the DVT?? Cannot really help as I am of average height but defying the cabin crew would be a one-way street, these days.

"He was standing there, pretending that he had cramp in his leg and I just knew that he as going to hit me any second. What really worried me was that - he was big. He looked like a rugby player and would have been far stronger than two of us."

One can imagine that crew would be anxious!

[takenthe5thamendment]

Piotr -

In regards to your concerns about Deep Vein Thrombosis, I would recommend that you obtain some T.E.D stockings.
They are anti-embolism stockings and not the same as support stockings or compression hose.
TED's have graduated compression to speed blood flow. They are manufactured for the non-ambulatory convalescing person to prevent blood clots.
We (nurses) ensure that all patients who are in bed for long periods of time wear them and also all patients that go to theatre for surgery.

As you are over 6ft, as you say, it is unreasonable on health grounds to be expected to sit in cramped conditions on an aircraft, particularly with current concerns regarding DVT and airtravel.

I can tell you what I do for prevention, however I wouldn't suggest you, or anyone else do it without knowing your medical history.
I take one soluble aspirin daily for a couple of days before flying.

As for the water issue - even on a 'no frills' airline I would expect NOT to be charged for a cup of water............. how do the crew know it's not to be used for taking medication.

Maybe I have been fortunate when I have flown, but then I have always found Cabin Crew to be really helpful.
Perhaps you were just unlucky in this instance.

[SLF]

piotr

I've not seen the statistics, but I bet you're more likely to die in a road accident on the way to the airport.

A 3hr trip to Spain? Chances of DVT infinitessimal I'd say, it's primarily a long haul issue. Don't get confused by the press calling it "economy class syndrome".

Yes, bucket class is uncomfortable for people of most sizes. Put up with it, or go walking in the highlands instead. :mad:

Cheers - SLF
completely p!ssed off sitting next to fidgety people who feel the need to consume 2 litres per hour - because they're worried about DVT and dehydration :(

[piotr]

SLF - perhaps you were being 'tongue in cheek', otherwise I find your contribution offensive.

I am well aware that DVT is not on top of my likely-death-cause list, that's not the issue. My main point was that it is not unreasonable to want to stretch your legs occasionally on a long trip - especially if you get leg cramps as I sometimes do. Note that most of my trips are to California or the Far East, so these are "long haul".

"Put up with it, or go walking in the highlands instead" is a grossly arrogant comment. I don't see why I should sit for seven-plus hours uncomfortably cramped just because there is no provision for passengers to stand for a few minutes to stretch their legs, or because I happen to be sitting next to an arrogant and small minded passenger like yourself who seems to be monitoring the rate of my water consumption! How much water I drink is none of your f@@ing business!

If I am paying £1000-plus to get somewhere, I should be entitled to expect a reasonably comfortable journey.

As for the other, helpful feedback, thanks guys, I appreciate it.

[takenthe5thamendment]

I have had many a holiday walking in the Highlands, it's a fantastic place.......

[Tomb Raider]

Piotr,
Will try to answer all your questions,but beware,I am slightly angry at your assertions!

1.DVT---You have more chance of winning the lottery than contracting a DVT if you don't belong to one of the following groups......
A:History of DVT in your family
B:Female taking birth control pill
C:Female smoker
If you are in all three of these groups,your chances grow slightly.


A French clinic that specialises in DVT recently studied 75 specific cases OF DVT over a period of one year,and concluded that....;
Only 9 of the 75 had even been on an aircraft in the previous year......and not a single one had been on an aircraft for a flight of more than 2 hours!!!!

The rest had beeen on coaches,trains......cinemas,theatres....long car rides etc....COUCH POTATOES no less!!!!!!!!!

The British tabloid press need to be taken to court over their "over sensationalism" against airlines.

I ask for one "Journo" to give me a valid reason, in conjunction with the "ECONOMY CLASS SYNDROME" that is widely reported,as to WHY? a man died in JAN of 2002 on a flight from SFO to LHR , whilst sitting in "UPPER CLASS".............Perhaps he was too "cramped" on that Virgin flight????
B/s##T He was 75, had history in his family,and he drank little fluids and stayed in his seat for 11 hours.

Dare I say he was asking for trouble??

Piotr............move around the cabin as you see fit.It seems to me that you were standing around in the galleys.Don't get in the crews' way...use the areas around the toilets,or around the door areas.Don't forget,there are 5 doors each side on a 747 and generally only 3 galley areas on the main cabin.Don't worry about standing near a door area etc,the crew will only give you a hard time if you're getting in the way in the galley area,whilst they are trying to work.........we do have things to do between services you know!!


Stand around the Loos.....there are plenty of places on a L/Haul A/C to stand.I cannot accept that you were told to "sit down" on a long haul flt, UNLESS ,you were standing in the galley, in the face of the crew whilst they were trying to move trollies around etc..or performing other duties!!

[bealine]

Further to the list of increased risk from DVT, sitting in front a computer screen for long periods can increase the risk!

A 10 minute rest from screen activity every hour is recommended (not necessarily a break, but to perhaps perform another activity) each hour.

[mystic voyager]

I am new to this forum and was just viewing all your comments about flying.

Could I just say Piotr you are quite justified to get out of you seat and walk around the cabin. With regards to getting in the crews way, please understand that as we are very limited to galley space (it's not just pax that are cramped in). If a pax approached me I would show them where they could stand, believe me I am not one of those crew who dosen't care. Sometimes there will have to be a bit of give and take. We as crew should understand that pax need to stretch their legs and walk around and pax need to understand that us crew need to work.

As for the water. If you were to approach me then I would offer you some water. Unfortunately we live in a society where people expect cheaper air travel and with that comes no-frills. Whenever I travel I always carry a water bottle with me and that is a really good idea. As airline crew I can tell you that especially on the B747 400 and the A340 300/600 the water tanks are filtered water and having tried it the taste is not as good as bottled water but it will not kill you.

DVT is a very big issue at the moment. You can suffer from DVT whilst watching the TV at home. If you are prone to it then you will get dosen't matter if you are watching TV, on a plane or in the car. Airlines offer different cabins all with different seat pitches. You as a customer/passenger have a choice as to who you fly with and in what cabin. I always come accross a 6ft pax who is sat in a small economy seat? WHy do you not fly Premium Economy or Business? As crew because we do so many flights we recieve a lot of complaints about seats. I know if it was up to us then we would remove rows of seats and create more legroom. The companies will not listen because they have to make money and at the end of the day an airline runs on selling seats.

[bealine]

Firstly, welcome Mystic Voyager to the ancient scrolls of PPRUNE's cosmic wanderings of lateral-thinking minds and lost souls!

Mystic Voyager, your comments are very good and show you care for our pax (by our, I mean all of our airline pax, not just BA).

However, as with so many of my colleagues, you fail to understand the basic concept---

Most of our 6ft + pax don't fly Premium Eco or Business Class because they just can't afford it! If their company is paying......fine but even now, many businesses are forbidding their staff "J" class travel! The difference in fare between Eco and Premium Eco can be £1000.

The first long-haul airline to cut through the plethora of fares and produce a handful of easily understood fares with sensible fare stages between classes will be the one to clean up - and if someone doesn't do it soon, we'll have a long-haul "No-Frills" competitor or two to grapple with!!!

Here's looking to sense and sensibility for everyone!!!

[piotr]

Mystic,

Thanks for your comments. Bealine is correct of course - there is a HUGE price difference between eco & business, and one that in the current economic climate I could just not justify to my company (or myself!). The obvious answer, echoing Bealine, is rather than have such a huge jump, is to have more graduated classes/prices. I am sure people my size (i.e. over 6") won't mind paying an extra say £50 for 3" more legroom or whatever, whereas we may simply not afford to pay an extra £1,000 to go business.

On a side note, I am always very irritated when TV/newspapers show mock ups of "what aircraft will look in the near future" (you know, they tend to run a story like that every few months) - showing a double-decker Airbus, or an extra-jumbo-Jumbo, or whatever, with artists impressions of gyms, haidressers, wide treelined alleyways down the middle of the cabin... :D :D :D ... and you know darn well it's all bulls**t, and that all it means is that instead of 300 pax being squeezed in like sardines in these future a/c, you will have 1000. :mad:

[cattleclass]

I'm really interested in this discussion, having just arrived Narita this afternoon, 12 hours out from LHR. I am blessed with a capacity for stillness, and love the windowseat, as I can calm my light claustrophobia with a look outside. However, on the flights such JAL, Singapore, Virgin, all with seat backscreens, I have had several requests from other SLF, never staff, to lower my window blind as it ruins there Pacman game or whatever. Is there an official(or unofficial) cabin crew policy industry wide about people who actually want to look out the window, not sit in a Kids Entertainment zone?And as bealine said, there are plenty of inplace excercises to keep the muscles tweaked::rolleyes:

[MarkD]

cattle

the only problem is [as a pax who has "window" in his BAEC profile] that with cabin lights dimmed for "night", particularly on redeye flights, the light from a windows is disproportionately bright. While you may find closing the window for kiddies to be annoying, obviously your neighbour may be with a grasping firm who won't pay for J and needs kip before his LHR breakfast meeting :D

I find on some a/c [BA 744 I think] there is a rear bulkhead emergency hatch with good walkaround space which does not have a window blind. Perhaps if you took an aisle seat but went for frequent walks to the back?

[Globaliser]

The Heathrow Express manages an entertainment-free carriage. Why can't there be an entertainment-free zone on aircraft? I would gladly ask to be put there, where I don't have to suffer the heat from the equipment and the intrusion of the great big box taking up my foot space under the seat in front. And where cattleclass could have a look out of the window without being hassled.

[Sharjah Night Shift]

Speaking as someone who has to pay my own fare, "why can't the airlines offer some seats with a bit more room for the normal restricted economy fares plus an additional charge rather than tied to the usual full fare tickets?" I don't want all the frills and flexibility just a bit more room.

Another example of airlines that will not get my business are those that give excellent service in economy but with very little space. Does this sound like VS?

For a London-Tokyo trip last October these are some of the fares I found.
VS Economy GBP880
VS Premium Economy GBP 2800
Aeroflot Business GBP 1174

Ok I had to change planes in Moscow but the duty free there is cheaper than LHR and I arrived in Tokyo earlier in the day than on a direct flight. Their economy fare was only GBP350 but it looked a bit grim down the back.

[Globaliser]

You should keep your eyes open for add-on deals for World Traveller Plus on BA. Sometimes it's available exactly as you want it - discount economy fare + GBP150/200/300 each way.

[Sharjah Night Shift]

Globaliser,

I did look out for one of those deals you described but my dates were fixed as I was meeting up with a tour group.

Anyway the BA fare plus GBP 150 each way would have been more than Biz on Aeroflot. Use of the biz lounge at LHR was a bonus as at least I had somewhere to sit away from the shops having allowed plenty of time to drive round the M25 and arriving at check in over three hours before departure.

[Globaliser]

I know what you mean about lounges. I've been a member of the Qantas Club for years now. It gives you access to QF, BA, AA and US lounges when flying with the respective airlines, so I can usually be getting onto a BA economy flight (my usual hiding place) much more relaxed and "refreshed" - often even freshly showered. Given the choice between BA economy non-stop and SU business with a connect, I think I'd take the BA any day - but that's a personal thing.

Other than the joining fee, it's only about GBP 100 per year. One of the great travel bargains of the world, I reckon, if you can do most of your flying on those airlines. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it so openly.

[Barney_Gumble]

Bealine,

The first long-haul airline to cut through the plethora of fares and produce a handful of easily understood fares with sensible fare stages between classes will be the one to clean up

Spot on.....I have long since given up trying to understand the differences between R, G, I, F, A, J, C, D, W, T, Y, B, M, V, N, K, H, and L fare classes...did I mention Q, S and G?

As a very very basic pax who seems to spend his life on and off planes at EGLL, EGKK I have just about sorted my life out now. I always fly BA because my brain can't cope with differing airlines processes and rules, so I decided to stick with one. I use E-tickets when I can, Check in on the BA.Com and pick my seat. Turn up go to the lounge smile and treat everyone as I would like to be treated. Then get on the a/c have a chat with the CC and drink a little too much Minervous red wine.

Once I was asked to swap seats with a person who was very tall and this wasn't an issue. I was put in a different travel class but the CC were good about it and it solved a problem so I was happy. I was given the meal that I would have had and the person next to me complained which made me chuckle a bit. I guess that is very unusual and it was a while ago now.

A question for you....Are BA going to introduce E-tickets on the Helsinki route. If so, when?

Prob off the thread a bit but perhaps you could PM me?

Barney

[Dangerous_Dave]

All I can say in the defence of the cabin crew is although I don't know what job Poitr does for a living, but I doubt that he would enjoy it is I went and stood over his shoulder the whole time he works, and make meaningless small talk. I understand that airplane cabins are small areas, but as cabin crew for 15 years and 6' 3" tall I found it hard to work normally, and don't need people rubbing themselves up against me

Also at 6'3" I do not struggle to sit in Economy Seats, and do not have the time for all of those shorter people who think that they don't fit into the seat. Sit at the back of the sit, not slouching, and you will be fine.