Aussie fighter aircraft could see action for first time since Vietnam

[Wirraway]

Thurs "Sydney Morning Herald"

Force for Iraq bigger than one sent to Afghanistan
By Tom Allard
January 23 2003

Australia's troop deployment to Iraq, known as Operation Bastille, will be bigger than that sent to Afghanistan and freer to act independently.

The Federal Government has added a range of support personnel and equipment to back the SAS troops.

The RAAF, which played only a marginal role in Afghanistan, has also succeeded in getting more of its personnel involved through the planned deployment of a squadron of 14 F/A 18 aircraft.

They will be part of the initial air campaign that will pave the way for more than 100,000 combat troops to head for Baghdad and secure control of the country.

It would be the first time since the Vietnam War that Australian fighter jets have performed such a role.

The Minister for Defence, Robert Hill, said yesterday pressure on Australia's allies meant there was a preference for Australian support capabilities.

Rather than United States troop-carriers dropping off SAS soldiers, the task will be undertaken by three Chinook helicopters, normally based in Townsville, and a C-130 Hercules.

A contingent of several dozen "quick reaction" commandos from Holsworthy's 4RAR regiment will be on hand to respond if they get into trouble. If they find weapons of mass destruction or come under chemical or biological weapon attack, elements from the Incident Response Regiment will be available to assist.

"The deployment suggests that we will be going in more as a self-contained unit," said a defence analyst with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Aldo Borgu. "The US doesn't like forces to arrive who are totally dependent on them, so that's obviously been taken into account."

The deployment gives Australia's military the opportunity to test manpower and equipment as if it were fighting on its own.

Australia will have its own command centre, probably on board HMAS Kanimbla, although the senior commander will probably be stationed with the US commander, General Tommy Franks.

The chief Australian commander will be able to communicate with HMAS Kanimbla on the overall campaign strategy but the other staff at Australian command will issue the detailed orders to troops, analysts said.

[Samuel]

THE RAAF never deployed 'fighters' to Vietnam.

They did however, send No2 Sqn RAAF which flew Canberra Bombers.

[Double Asymmetric]

Yep.
RAAF fighters (Meteor Mk8) saw operational service during the Korean War 1950-1953 ie half a century ago. Sabres were based in Thailand during the earlier stages of the Vietnam conflict but did not see combat.
Looks like the knucks will finally join the ranks of Herc/Caribou/Orion/B707/Army-Navy rotary people who actually do operational flying for a living! :p :cool: :p :cool:

(Flak jacket on.....)

[DutchRoll]

I suspect it will be more like the action they saw in Afghanistan, where from a little speck in the middle of the Indian Ocean they saw off the might of the Taliban Air Force and forced them to turn tail & flee.

Meanwhile - as is par for the course - the transport and maritime patrol elements of the RAAF, operating from some quasi-friendly, godforsaken place close to the action, will go about their daily routine of being threatened & having potshots taken at them without kicking up any fuss (as long as they don't take enemy fire through the duty free, at least - that would really make them angry).

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Wonder if the Iraqi air force only fights from 9-5 on weekdays.

Lets hope so or our knucks may be severely disoriented/inconvenienced!!:D

[Chimbu chuckles]

When you fight a war as a US ally more likely to be friendly fire through the duty free than enemy fire.

Chuck.

[Sheep Guts]

Which ever squadron goes over our hearts are with, go and whip there backsides like ya do in Singapore " CHURINGA" everyyear.

RAAF had Rotary in Veitnam as well Double I know you didnt mean to miss it. :D

Lets hope no one gets hits by FRIENDLY FIRE or ENEMY FIRE.

I know your only joking Chimbu , but "The Battle of Long Tan" and "Then Battle of Balmoral" certainly wasnt the result of friendly fire..


Lets hope its short and sweet and you come back to your loved ones soon. Backing you all the way!

:) ;)

Regards
Sheep

[Woomera]

It is appropriate that we offer our people our prayers for a safe and speedy return to their loved ones and wish them all the luck they may need, to complement their superb training and commitment.

[Islander Jock]

Concur fully Woomera,
This is not the time or place to be taking swipes at our Armed Forces. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the decision for them being sent, it is vital that we (all) of us show an unwaverring support for them in their job.

To bad the leader of the opposition couldn't subscribe to that philosophy yesterday when HMAS Kanimbla sailed. :mad:

Not to mention those spineless pricks waving banners and plackards in the faces of families there to farewell loved ones.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Actually SG I was only half joking. Read recently on the MIL forum that a US DoD study found that 17% of Coalition casualties in the Gulf War were from US friendly fire...I think it also said, but without going back and reading it again don't quote me, that 75% of the tanks/vehicles lost were friendly fire as well.:eek:

I also offer my unreserved support for our forces deploying to the Gulf and fervently hope that if they are forced to fight that they all come home alive...perhaps if the US forces showed the same fire discipline as Commonwealth Forces that might be more gauranteed :(

Chuck.

[one ball]

chimbu
I don't specifically set out to defend the yanks however let's look at this objectively: Friendly fire has been a terrible part of warfare ever since the cavemen first picked up clubs and started swinging in an all-out melee against the next tribe. However, there were fewer 'friendly-fire' casualties 'per-capita' in the 1991 "beach party" then any other war the US was involved in previously.

17 % ?
75 % ?

Maybe so, but in view of the extremely low number of TOTAL casualties sustained, (compared to other conflicts where the enemy stood and fought) I'm not surprised the ratio of FF to enemy fire is so high. Are you? No that ANY of this makes the bereaved loved ones feel any better, of course. ANY casualty is an awful thing.

Anyone who's been there and experienced the fog of war and seen how easy it might be to make a mistake, feel free to hook into the yanks' war-fighting abilities. As for me I'll just wave the flag and hope the inevitable f^ck ups, on anyone's part, are kept to a minimum. And I sincerely hope the lads have their NBC kit handy.

Good hunting, guys.

[Sheep Guts]

I agree one ball,

Chimbus "Statistic Simplistics" make it look awfull, but if you look at the total number casualties of the opposing forces it is very small. And there is no data on their Friendly fire incidents is there.

It was no doubt the 1991 Gulf War was a one sided affair, and the Freindly Fire that did occurr came under heavy scrutiniy.

Friendly fire is a sad consequence of war and will remain one, it is only since the advent of modern NEWS REPORTING, ie. CNN ,that we hear of it at all ,or earlier than in previous Campaigns.


I suspect if we had a glass ball, the percentages from previous campaigns would have been much higher Chimbu. But such is life, we will never know.

Freindly fire comes multiple forms, the heavily publicised rocketing of freindly Armour, to the unpublicised, Army Cook accidently discharging his M-16 into his colleague thigh, during an evening meal. Thats whats called a "U.D." unauthorised discharge. UDs in Commonwealth Forces happen aswell, both during Exercise and War, another sad fact. Its even changed the way people operate weapons. ie, the incident in Somalia with Australian Troops.


Regards
sheep

"Per Ardua Ad Astra"

Way to go

[Gnadenburg]

To the doubters of the, at times, American Wild West fire disicpline I would invite you to study history or talk to your Grandfather!

We have been on the receiving of American friendly fire for some time.

There is a high incidence of American blue on blue probably due a reliance on firepower. Improvements in technology only compounded by the advancement of their manoeuvre warfare.

From the history vaults - B25s bombing Aussies at Buna and the launching of air-air missiles at a destoyer off Vietnam. My dig at the yanks not complete without reference to their shooting of our troops in Brisbane during WW2.

Good luck to the Hornet guys off to Al Udeid. A very dry place in more ways than one so try and import a few slabs in that handy luggage compartment!

[bentwings]

Of our 521 Australian casualties in SVN, 52 were accidently killed. Find a better way to resolve the Iraq crisis.

[Gnadenburg]

Bentwings.

History has taught us to carefully question American policy, hasn't it?

[Rich-Fine-Green]

History - learn from past mistakes?:

Forchristsake! - the world can learn from past mistakes in letting tyrants have their own way for too long.

Hitler/Saddam both A$$holes from the shallow end of the gene pool.

I resent the fact that brave Aussie,Yank & Brit servicemen/women have to go out and do a job that the rest of the world (UN) lacked the balls to do over the past decade.

...and while the momentum is there - North Korea should be next. maybe then we can have a few years peace until the next S.O.B. comes along.

As previously mentioned, our guys deserve all the support we can give. Safe journey.

[hoss]

I hope you get the chance to hit them hard fella's,take out saddam and as many of his supporters as you can. Extra points if you can dispatch those 'westerners' who are going to act as human shields.

Regards, hoss

[bentwings]

Gnadenburg,
The answer is in John Howard's recent references to "Australia's long-term interests" which translates to (i) maintain our first place in the queue for a free-trade agreement with the U.S. and (ii) security support - ANZUS no longer exists, it's now AUS.

We have to pay our dues but the politicans won't be in the front line - George Dubwya was too busy protecting the skies over Texas to attend the SVN show.

[Ash767]

I fully support our troops all the way, it would be un-Australian not to do so. The thing I do not support is the US attacking Iraq without a UN resolution authorising force. As I understand it if the US attack Iraq without the blessing of the UN they will be breaking international law.

If this law is broken then that will give any other country the right to have a crack at who ever they wish when ever they wish.

The US should release their so called evidence to help the inspectors out. If it is found that Iraq do have weapons well lets go and do the job once and for all, finish it and get rid of this basta^d!!

Ash767

[Rich-Fine-Green]

.........documents smuggled out of Iraq indicated President Saddam Hussein was preparing to use chemical weapons.

The papers, provided to the British Government by members of the Iraqi opposition, showed Saddam had issued members of his elite Republican Guard protective suits and the drug atropine, an antidote to the deadly nerve gases VX and sarin.


How much evidence do they need?.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[robair]

rich-fine-green, you sound like goerge bush, am I right?
seriously I personaly take a neutral approach to this issue. every one has lost focus on the real issue of getting that prick Osama bin laden. If it means going into Iraq to get the prick then I would support it 100%.
What you said about your mate Saddam I also agree with. If any one in this world is going to use nucular weapons, he is a big enough ******** to do it, and he must be stopped. But all you politicions please consider the consequences of going it alone. Do we want another Vietnam?
wether you are for or agianst the war, please remember that the soldiers saliors and airmen going there are poeple like you and me, and they don't make the decision to go in there. We must give them our full 100% support and NOT treat them like those wingeing, cowardly and disgusting hippie baby boomers did to those guys that went to Vietnam. lets give them our support they have mine.
good luck guys and come back back safe!

[Gnadenburg]

I support all those who deploy to the Gulf but am not blinded by the expedience of American foreign policy.

Coming from a family who has been touched by the horrors of Vietnam, i support a Gulf War levy. About .5% should do it, for veterans and their families in rehabilitation. No fancy Government lawyers denying "Gulf War Syndrome".

All bravo on pprune in your support guys, do have a close look at Veterans' Affairs Issues next election. That would be a high level of real support. Pilots often bleet at social taxes.

In my cynical view of American Foreign Policy, this Gulf War will be analysed in years to come as a means for the following.

1) The defence of Israel-taking out the one regime that could unite the Arab world against the American support of that country.

2) Control of their oil- to limit the power of Saudia Arabia.

3) Keep Iran in check.

All is good I suppose, for our Western lifestyle, I do cringe at 1).

[bentwings]

Coming from a family who has been touched by the horrors of Vietnam, i support a Gulf War levy. About .5% should do it, for veterans and their families in rehabilitation. No fancy Government lawyers denying "Gulf War Syndrome".
Right on Gnadenburg.
I'm still helping Vietnam veterans with PTSD and wrecked lives, and widows resulting from Vietnam and now there are young Australians veterans from the East Timor campaign receiving psychiatric treatment.
The best anti-war treatment I know is to visit any veterans' hospital psychiatric ward; for example visit Heidelberg Ward 17 in Melbourne. The patients probably won't be able to talk to non-veterans but the message is clear. Any gung ho person making that visit will be quickly converted to wanting to find a better way to resolve the Iraq problem.
There's absolutely no difference between the Iraqi pilots flying Mig's, Mirages, Sukhois etc than our blokes. They just want to fly, defend their country, and go home to their wives and children at the end of the day. Find a better way to resolve the conflict.

[Gnadenburg]

Bentwings

Let us talk about Israel. Find a better way to resolve conflict?

We do have common ground on the real support of our veterans being more than a ticker tape parade, but expensive and perpetual support throughout their lives.

Vietnam was a lie. Those who have had their lives devastated are often critical of American policy. Why are you so quick to follow now?

Iraqi pilots? There will be little air combat. The trauma will probably be amongst the civilian population-caught between Saddam's henchman(Republican Guard) and American firepower.

[THREEGREENS]

There are arguments for and against....all valid in their own way. But for Australia to participate shows support for America whereby non-participation would indicate otherwise. Whether we like it or not, America is our aly and I for one think it is imperative we show a united front and get some of these a*seholes off the planet BEFORE they create the type of havoc they are obviously quite capable of and willing to inflict on anyone they desire!:(
To our troops; good luck and God's speed.;)
Take Care.

[bentwings]

Gnadenburg,

My post was unclear.

1. I was in Vietnam with the Australian army and have first-hand knowledge of what happens to the little people like us in the conflict and its aftermath.

2. I stated my belief of the political/strategic reasons for our government's decision to send troops to Iraq.

3. I am opposed to sending Australian forces to Iraq but when they do go I will support them while they're there and when they return unlike the treatment we received during and after SVN.

4. I have lived and worked in the Middle East and have friends in Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq. None of those friends are religious fundamentalists or want to harm anyone but they don't run their countries any more than we do ours.

The strategies of all those countries are based on the common Middle Eastern philosophy: 'The friend of my friend is my friend, the enemy of my friend is my enemy, the enemy of my enemy is my friend' hence I don't ever expect peace in the Middle East.

Cheers,
BW

[Travelling Toolbox]

ash767

I fully support our troops all the way, it would be un-Australian not to do so. The thing I do not support is the US attacking Iraq without a UN resolution authorising force. As I understand it if the US attack Iraq without the blessing of the UN they will be breaking international law.

Ah...a couple of questions please if you could help me Ash...

And breaking UN law HASN"T been done by all those countries who have waged war in the last 40 years in Europe, Africa, Middle East, Indochina, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Russia etc etc etc.

Just which of these wars was/is legal by your definition??

And, while we are at it, what was done by the UN against the transgressors that has been a REALLY affective deterent and has made them stop??

Just interested.

And for the record, I too wish our troops a safe tour and a speedy return to their loved ones.

We need to excise this cancer on our world and if diplomacy is scoffed at by Sad & his military advisers (as seems to be the case) and force is the only way - So be it.

[Tool Time Two]

First, Bentwings, check your VN stats. They are, albeit by a small margin, (5%), incorrect.
Secondly, this thread seems to be a platform form political views, so let's join in.
All, or most, normal people these days are not in favour of war.
If and when the unexpected happens, for example, Sept. 11, everyone wants to know why wasn't it prevented by the Government.
The do-gooders, the so called doves if you will, like to project an image of themselves as holding very high and holy ground. But their message is always mis-directed. It should be focussed on those who wish to impose a will on all they can control.
As much as we all love to hate the Americans, some anyway, the planet would not be a better place if their might did not exist.
Now, let's get back to aviation, and talk about scabs, for example.:cool:

[bentwings]

TTT,
Private msg sent to you.
Cheers,
bw

[boofta]

At this very moment somewhere in the Middle East, Africa,or any
other holy Muslim place there is a mother with a young child on
her knee. This mother is telling her child about the evil threat to
them from the western world. Mrs Bin Laden once whispered the
same words into her son's ear.
The problem is not blowing up Iraq, Palestine of any other place.
The solution is to stop these mothers continuing the madness of
difference between people, religions, politics.
We are all human beings, just because we practice religion of
any sort does not give us divine rights to kill others, just because
we are of a different political ilk does not give us rights to destroy
someone else's political system.
Humankind will only truly progress when all religion is eliminated.
God does not have a name, religions are purely franchises made
by man to benefit themselves.
To the do gooders who want to stop war! I also suggest they
act as human shields to protect Saddam and his weapons.
A perfect solution to eliminate the mentally feeble...

[bentwings]

Australia Army Aviation Association site at http://www.fourays.org/index2.htm has an editorial and Brian Cooper's comments on Iraq situation.

[Knulp]

RAAF fighter pilots were given the opportunity ofserving in Vietnam as Forward Air Controllers. In addition to duty as FACs, six fighter pilots also saw service in American Phantom squadrons in Vietnam.

Wonder what those six guys ended up doing?

[bentwings]

Sqdn Ldr Allan Reed RAAF flew USAF Phantoms in SVN and retired from the RAAF as an Air Vice Marshal. A few years back Allan was guest speaker at our annual 18 August Vietnam Veterans Commemoration ceremony (held on the anniversary of the battle of Long Tan ) at the Melbourne Shrine. He was doing well as a consultant.
Arthur Sibthorpe (ex Korean campaign) flew as a FAC in SVN but don't know how he's getting on. Like many of us Arthur would be into his '70s now but hopefully still flying.

[robair]

Hasn't this one had some hot responses????:eek:
Let say I wish the guys going there a safe jorney, hope you you all come back safe and unharmed I suport you all 100%
and I think simon creen is a moron:mad:

[Gnadenburg]

Mr Howard is serious.

Drinking with some Yank fighter pilots somwhere in the Gulf and hear the Hornet guys have been made welcome in Kuwait. Would prefer the lazy life in Oman that Orion guys seem to be enjoying.

You can get a drink in Muscat but the Kuwaiti desert very dry.

Good luck.