Back door open for ex-service pilots...and closed for overseas training.

[rolling circle]

The long-awaited short cut for ex-service pilots to a civil licence has recently been agreed. In some cases this will mean having to do as little as pass Air Law, a Class 1 medical and IR Skill Test in order to gain an ATPL. Details are at:

http://www.tgda.gov.uk

At the same time, the JAR-FCL committee have reconsidered the requirements for training outside JAA Member States by organisation that do not have their main place of business within the JAA. Regular readers will remember that, at their January meeting, the committee refused even to discuss the proposals for overseas training contained in NPA 14. The JAA committee, however, insisted that these proposals be considered at the March meeting.

Well, the matter was on the agenda at the March meeting and, after due consideration, all proposals in NPA 14 were thrown out, the UK CAA representative being, yet again, in a minority of one. The result is that training organisations outside of JAA Member States will have to abide by all of the provisions of JAR-FCL 1 in order to gain approval. The most notable of these requirements is that all instructors will have to hold a JAA (or JAA Member State) licence, instructor rating and, if instructing on the Modular IR course, an Instrument Rating. In the absence of a mechanism for the conversion of non-JAA licences and ratings, this will make suitably qualified instructors harder to find than rocking horse droppings. It is, of course, pure coincidence that this will push up instructor salaries and, therefore, schools' overheads to the point where it will no longer be financially attractive to train outside the JAA.

This decision will affect organisations such as WMU, PanAm, EFT, OFA, etc. but not OAT, Lufthansa or Sabena who train in the US but have their main place of business within a JAA Member State - they will be able to continue to use solely FAA qualified instructors.

UK CAA 2 - JAA 0.

[EGDR]

Back door open, fnr fnr wafu's luv it....

[little red train]

Well thank god the JAA are upholding saftey as their main objective, Imagine the danger if Pilots could train in an aircraft used by a company NOT registerd in an EU state.

EU Cash-Cow-Cartel 1, Free-Trade and Democracy 0

[BEagle]

So presumably that means that, although organisations in the USA may be approved as RFs/FTOs for JAR-FCL licences, they will need to be staffed by FIs holding JAR-FCL licences and ratings? Given that conversion of such ratings is neither straightforward nor cheap, the only other option for those companies would be to recruit existing JAR-FCL FIs? Who would then need to try to obtain the appropriate US visas and work permits? Little chance of that happening, I would guess, so will these companies now try and sue the CAA for 'approving' them ahead of the now-defunct NPA14 proposals?

Perhaps we'll now see either the FAA joining the JAA (?) or else US pilots training in the US and European pilots training in Europe? Apart, that is, from those few US organisations whose FIs already hold the relevant JAA qualifications?


[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 23 March 2001).]

['I' in the sky]

I thought that it had always been the intention that the instructors would have to be both FAA and JAA qualified.

Does it also apply to the Training Providers teaching only PPL/IMC etc or just to the FTO's teaching modular and Integrated courses ?

Surely now the pieces of rocking horse sh*t who are dual qualified should be in a strong position to be issued with the proper visas/work permits, otherwise US buisnesses will lose money. The INS wouldn't want that now would they ?

But as for the logic of the last paragraph. If your main base is outside Eurpoe you must use European instructors, if it's inside Europe you can use Non European instructors . Derrrrr !

Time to bin Europe, and that's from a piece of rocking horse stuff.

[This message has been edited by 'I' in the sky (edited 23 March 2001).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thumbs up to the FI thing. This can only help push up salaries. A goodly sized percent of PPRuNe Wannabes will be flying instructors at some time...

I think its fair enough to recognise the Military guys quals and experience.

WWW

[AffirmBrest]

Hmmm...

But if there are loads of instructors who are suitably qualified, salaries WON'T be pushed up.

However, if there remain few JAA 'Qualified' FIs then a) salaries will go up, as mentioned, but b) why are there few FIs?

High FI salaries arising due to scarcity of qualification will exist BECAUSE it will be harder to achieve that qualification. Hence many wannabes not able to take that route into flying, and the FI route to airlines may well become much less attractive.

Or not?

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[TooHotToFly]

WWW - you're logic doesn't quite work because although a good sized number of wannabes are going to be flying instructors, and may benefit from this, every wannabe would have to pay more for their own training, so it would all even out anyway.

[little red train]

Isn't the US work permits/Visa Issued on a basis that you posses a skill that is not avaible from enough american citizens? a recent case being the IT skills shortage.

If so the JAA FI's should have little difficulty in obtaining the right to work. I cant see to many americans forking out JAA-Cash amounts just to put up with us sods, or the US schools puting the required cash upfront just to see the Instructor bugger of at the first snif of Jet-A.

But its obvious that the main objective is to lessen the price gap, no, gorge between US and EU. there was a motion a while ago to make PPLs of non JAA states build to 100hrs before being allowed to fly to in a JAA state. PPL and 100hrs in the US: about £6500
Price of Bare minimum PPL in UK oh!: about £6500, coincidence isn't it. when it was pointed out it was aginast ICAO and way to obviously commercially motivated it was droped, only then. way after it should have been if they had any common sence at all.

[212man]

Can someone explain why the JAA are bending over backwards to harmonise the certification requirements with the FAA ie JAR 23,25,27 and 29 and yet the licencing requirements are a dogs breakfast?

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Another day in paradise

[inyoni]

Rolling Circle
Another informative and thought provoking post. I had a look a the web site you mention, but seemed to be unable to get to the part that specifies the exemption from the ATPL requirements for Air Force pilots. I was wondering if this is a JAA thing or specific to the UK? A pointer please.
As for the Instructor side that does raise a few eyebrows. BEagle says the CAA could be sued for issuing approvals to non-EU/JAA owned companies, but I assume they did this in good faith at the time, but if they issue an approval now to say EFT then they could become liable I suppose, but only if the party involved was totally unaware of the forthcoming development.
I suppose the more established companies will find a way around things, say for instance a major airline may give/award a contract to a EU FTO, but insist that their CEP's are sent to a nominated US School, e.g. OAT to WMU?
There may be some commercial pressure on FTO's to 'up salaries', but I doubt if it will make a significant difference in the long term. A pity though, a reasonable compromise that would see a more airline orientated pay structure could be achieved if the right business model was put together to obtain a good productivity, coupled with use of offshore cheaper facilities and resources.
Let's see what happens!

[Tosh McCaber]

Surely a case for someone to take this anomaly to the European Court as a violation of their Human Rights. It seems to work for illegal immigrants,and prisoners - why not student pilots?

(This may also be a worthwhile tactic, in relation to to the iniqitous imposition of VAT on course fees!)

[WX Man]

Grrr!!!!

This really makes my blood boil. What do the JAA think they will achieve? More pilots being employed in JAA countries? I think not.

If I just wanted a PPL now, I would definately just do a FAA PPL. OK, you can only use it by day under VFR in G- reg a/c, but how many PPLs fly outside of those conditions? A: only the serious ones.

I for one am desperate to emmigrate in order to escape the farce that is JAR-FCL.

[Roadtrip]

This JAA B.S. sounds silly and petty. A US military pilot takes a short written test at the end of pilot training and is issued a commercial instrument rating, multi-eng limited to center-line thrust rating. If a ATP with the center-line thrust restriction removed is desired once 1500 total hours is acheived, then all it takes is a quick 3 day course (2 rides and a check in a light twin) and the ATP written - takes about a week of study and a 1.5 hours test. Cost? About $1500 including the Flight Engineer qual exam. You guys in the UK and Europe are being gouged big time.