why flight schools fail !

[Martin Barnes]

As an active surfer of this forum, I feel it is time to add the perspective of a flight training provider. We at BFC take in our stride the informed and uninformed opinions expressed here and thank you for your compliments and are pleased to answer your complaints or observations in the hope that we can improve on the product we offer. I do feel however that wanabes should be aware that there is very little profit to be made in the UK flight training business. The only reason I am in it ,is because I am addicted to Aviation as most of you must be. My instructors who are among the best anywhere are tragically underpaid in comparison to your average Airline Captain ( a job they are all well qualified to do ).

BFC is in sound financial shape due to the fact that we are in many other profitable aviation activities and actually make a profit from flight training, which I think is probably allowed . I suspect the larger training organisations make more money from selling aircraft, props , avionics and engines therefore operating flight training as a marginal profit centre. I calculate if we get everything right the bottom line on flight training is around 7-8% of turnover.
So there you have it! UK flight training is not the rip-off I have heard quoted here many times. The cost of complience with the new JAA standards has been very expensive and in general has been bourne by the flight schools and not the customer. Im sure the recent tragic failures in the industry were in no way premeditated, thousands of UK businesses fail every year in all industries. I offer my heart-felt sympathy to those of you who have lost your hard earned dosh. Please remember Dont pay vast amounts of money up-front, Pay by credit card. But please show up for the training you have booked (or cancel in good time) and pay for the training you have received. Just for the record Multiflight, PAT and Airways Flight Training, are all very good I/R flight schools . so there!

Why is it you never see your crap grammar and spelling until after you have posted!

[Megaton]

I don't speak for everyone but I think what has gripped some people is that they've been ripped off by schools who realise that they are in trouble but continue to take their money. There is no doubt that flying training is considerably more expensive in the UK than elesewhere for a number of reasons outwith the control of the FTOs. Fuel, weather, landing fees all contribute to the prohibitive costs. However, the standard of training in the UK is, without doubt, excellent.

The cost of JAA has not just be borne by the FTOs. The loss of BCPL, NVQ etc have all contributed to the cost of flight training paid for by aspiring pilots. Fuel costs are also passed on, sometimes with indecent haste. To say that the cost of compliance has been borne by the schools is, I think, inaccurate. The cost of attaining the JAR CPL/IR has increased significantly over the cost of the old CAA licences.

Nobody begrudges your 7 or 8% but, equally, nobody who is in the training system and has suffered financially will have much sympathy for bleeding hearts.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Ham Phisted ]

[Martin Barnes]

Thanks for your input HP

I accept the jar has cost us all to much money. I quess my main point is PLEASE do not pay large ammounts up-front and we are not ripping you off!.

[Alex Whittingham]

Martin is right. To put what he says into perspective consider a medium sized FTO that turns over 2 million a year. Sounds like a lot of money? Using Martin's profit figures, which I think might be a bit high, that means a profit of £160,000 a year. You only need a few too many staff or an overpaid MD and all of that profit disappears.

Big schools work on cash flow. When you pay £50,000 to them up front they don't keep the money to pay for your training over the next year, they use it to pay today's bills. As soon as customers start to dry up they have a rapidly developing cash problem. The message is clear, don't pay large sums up front and find a training provider that doesn't run their business on your credit.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Our profit margins are very much the same here in Australia, even with our good weather! It must be so much harder to cover your fixed costs over there. It would be nice to make the sort of margins as other businesses such as retailing, but the competition here is too fierce, so we all just scrape by.

Yet we manage to maintain cash flow without using our students as "banks" for interest free loans, and I would suggest that any school that insists on it may well have a cash flow problem already, buyer beware. Especailly if the MD wants your money up front, but is driving an expensive car.

I really feel for you folks that lost your money, and your jobs.

[jsf]

Martin

If you are sensitive about critical comments you may have received in these forums, then do the words "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" mean anything to you?. :p

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: jsf ]

[Keith.Williams.]

I think the PPSC figures illustrate the efefcts of JAR.

Post tax profit margins quoted in the liquidators' report were as follows:

1998 - 1999 16%
1999 - 2000 19%
2000 - 2001 A post tax loss of 39%

The figures for 1998-1999 and 1999-2000 were of course distorted by the fact that lots of students were rushing to complete their national exams before the introduction of JAR.

[13579]

Just like to echo the sentiments of irmscher001. I completed IR @ BFC minimal time, max respect for MD and all the crew, best FBO in the uk, bar none.

[taffyb737]

I would like to reply to these few posts.BFC and Bristol ground school are one of the top training organisations in the country.They are proffesional and they do not rip you off.(alex I did a perf.A course with you and it was the bees knees).What SFT did was to take your money and then deliver nothing,oh apart from lies upon lies.Let us hope that only reputable training organisations stay afloat and prosper while the crap goes as it did with SFT well and truly under.Martin,Alex,you do not need to advertise your reputation keeps you in business! Good luck lads with the future,and thankyou. :)

[Broken Wings]

JSF

Martin is not in a hot kitchen and I don't think he's sensitive but simply giving it from the horses mouth. The old addage "If you want to make a small fortune in aviation then start with a big fortune" is probably still true. The only reason for being in business is to make a profit - If you love the business your in then that is a bonus. I'm sure he's accutely aware of putting all his eggs in one basket as a FTO and has the Charter/Handling business to smooth out the cashflow - a truely wise move. As an extra his charter business provides an opportunity to the odd lucky low hours pilot who does very well on the IR course to build hours on twin single pilot. Without his likes the British professional flying training business would be in dire straights.

I fully support his main point about not paying huge sums up front. His policy of keeping your account in credit for the planned days flying should be a regulation introduced by the CAA to all FTOs to protect wananbes. Until this happens I think the CAA should re-introduce the Assessment and give the payment advice to new pilots and get them to sign as having understood, as sooner later there will be a suicide if the present situation continues.

BFC and Bristol GS come highly recommended as I am with the former and have used the latter.

[mboulton]

sft had the most experienced and professional of instructors with extensive experience in the airline industry. we as instructors tried to maintain the highest standard.sft has trained hundreds of pilots over its 35 yrs and had a reputation of being a very good fto. its alright being smug after the event and any idiot can critise it. At least our student didnt have to stand outside in the car park to eat their rolls and sandwiches.The finances upstairs was out of our control, Happy Christmas <img src="wink.gif" border="0">