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propaganda
20th Jan 2003, 20:07
I'm a pommy 737 driver wishing to escape to a warmer climate.
Can anyone tell me if VB has any non-Aussie Pilots ?...
I ask the question in good faith, and to balance any forth coming debate, the UK airlines have taken their fair share of antipodeans since 89 and continue to do so, and yes there still are unemployed Pilots in the UK as well.
Finally, I hear it is now alot easier to convert the licence to a Aussie one and visa versa.
:confused:

fire wall
20th Jan 2003, 21:13
Propoganda, open borders for pilots would be a wonderful thing but I am afraid you live in dream land if you think it will ever become reality. Unfortunately you seem to be of the opinion that it already exists on your side of the fence.......it does not. The pilots from the southern hemisphere (do you have any idea how stuck up the term antipodean sounds to us ) who are entitled to work under your immigration laws need to meet certain criteria ie from a commonwealth country and under the age of 25 upon which the work permit is revoked on your 25th birthday.... OR a grandparent of British stock.

Now, should you be from a commonwealth country and below the age of 25 then we should extend the same priveledges to you......unfortunately and somewhat unjustly we do not.

Like wise if you have and Australian/NZ or South African grandparent then likewise you should be offered the same hospitality......again unfortunately this does not appear to happen. However, if you do meet this catagory then might I suggest you enquire what was going through said relative's head when they decided to repatriate back to that dark,dank country from which they successfully escaped.

Mr Wright
20th Jan 2003, 21:56
Me thinks someone has a big chip on their shoulder. It was a simple question asked I think. To answer the post, no not much employment from overseas at VB.:)

Offchocks
20th Jan 2003, 22:06
Mr Wright I reckon you hit the nail on the head!
Propaganda I think your first hurdle would be right of aboad......I'm not totaly sure but I don't think you can stay here on the basis that you have a relation who is Australian. (My wife had to emigrate even though we had been married nine years!)
Although there are jobs going in both Virgin and Qantas, it is very competitive.

Traffic
21st Jan 2003, 03:44
Propaganda

If you are looking for warmer climes and have more than 500 hrs LHS time on the 737 and more than 2000 hrs total heavy jet time then send me a private email. I may be able to help.

Paramac
21st Jan 2003, 07:57
Propaganda
This issue comes up so often and there are always the same sort of mud slinging as a result.
People dont seem to be able to seperate the Imigration issues from the principle of weather or not foreign pilots should be able to have local jobs. In many peoples minds these issues will never be resolved. However, insofar as converting your UK lisence,the facts are all there on the Aussie CAA web site. If you hold a UK ATPL you can convert it to an Australian ATPL by sitting an Air Law exam..end of story..Now the imigration issue..well I dont know but if you were able to enter and live permanently in Aus then I can see no reason why VB would not talk to you. As far as I am concerned you would be most welcome.
All the info you need is available on the net but if you would like any help just get in touch.

fruitbatflyer
21st Jan 2003, 10:31
Agree that it is more of an immigration issue than anything else.
Depends also on whether the would-be employer wants to make a pitch to the immigration mob on your behalf. That in turn depends on how desperate the employer becomes for suitably experienced people. Virgin would appear to be getting what they want locally right now, but some in the industry are concerned that their experience base is pretty low already. With the expansion that they plan, that low experience base will either get lower, or they will relax their 'unofficial' recruitment ban on certain post 1989 ex Ansett people etc, or they will seek short term contract pilots from overseas or they just might grease the
immigration wheels if they can. Other industries certainly get foreigners in when they can demonstrate a need. Who knows
what goes on in the minds of the Virgin recruiters and whether Tricky Dicky and the Docksider have enough input to get policies modified to get the best that is on offer?

redsnail
21st Jan 2003, 11:22
G'day Propaganda,
You'd have to sort out immigration first up. Go to the Immigration (http://www.immi.gov.au) website for more info. If you fall within the ballpark point requirements, then grab a lawyer that deals with Australian immigration. Often they know little clues to help you along. Google the topic for more tips etc.
Converting your lic is a doddle compared to what you've done before. Go to the CASA's website for more info. I can't see why Virgin Blue would knock you back. If you have the right to work etc and the Aust ATPL then I am sure you stand a reasonable chance. There are other operators around eg Qantas and they do have English/Welsh/Scottish born pilots there.
Emigrating to Oz can be difficult but it isn't impossible. Learn how to work the system and you're in.

Me? I just wandered through Terminal 4 waving my UK passport courtesy of Dad. That was the easy part....

bonvol
21st Jan 2003, 11:25
No need to be sponsored by a company to come to godzone.

Pilots get 60 points on the scale and if you speak good english and are young enough its likely you can just emigrate under your own steam. No relatives required either.

Check out www.immi.gov.au and download the skilled immigration booklet for full explanation.

Unlike the UK, where you have to demonstrate some familial connection to get in we in OZ will extend open arms to needy foreigners. It's the new post 89 policy:D

propaganda
21st Jan 2003, 19:15
Thanks for all the info guys, May well have to investigate the immigration website, and then speak to my old mate Tricky Dicky for a reference. ;)

Eddington the Rodger
23rd Jan 2003, 18:42
propaganda,
the last sentence in your original thread does not hold.
It is easy to convert your UK ATPL to OZ ATPL.
To convert your OZ ATPL to an UK ATPL requires doing practically all the exams and being given the term "self-improver" if you have gone out to get some experience.Why should it be so easy for you where all the peoples which headed north-west have to spend oodles of cash and time to get their english equivalent?
There are numerous pilots in OZ.....charity starts at home and any positons available at VB should be for Australian nationals.
I appreciate that many Australians are working in England/ the Isles but most are there as demand was greater than supply when they were recruited. This issue is not a 2 way street.

Soup Dragon
23rd Jan 2003, 23:15
Rod

Just one quick question in reply to your

"There are numerous pilots in OZ.....charity starts at home and any positons available at VB should be for Australian nationals. "

If propaganda goes through the immigration process as has been suggested above then, in your eyes, does he become "eligible" for an aussie pilot job?

Wizofoz
23rd Jan 2003, 23:42
E the R,

Not quite correct. If you have 3000 total including 1500 command ontwo pilot aircraft over 30 000kg, you can get exemptions on the JAP ATP which mean you sit two exams (Air Law and Human Performance) and a flight test.

I also dissagree with your sentiment re employing Australians first. Yes charity begins at home, but airlines aren't charities they're businesses. If someone has the right to live and work here and is the best person for the job, they should get it.

You are in a global industry. jingoism has no place in it.

fire wall
24th Jan 2003, 12:11
Wiz, the real world is so much different, and so is the UK and I and my previous potential employer have the legals bills to back up that statement. Perhaps you needed to be on the bones of your arse and in the UK when Dan Air and Air Europe folded to appreciate such. But hey, can't tell you fellas anything....you've seen it all right......that includes you "Wright" and "Offchocks"....chip on my shoulder.....son I 've got a chip on both and I have been around more than long enough to gain a "balanced " opinion on how this game works so until you spend 15 years scrounging around the toilets of the world looking for work then I suggest you are not qualified to comment....offchock when...yesterday?

Footnote: careful "ED"....the truth might upset these poor little dears.

Eddington the Rodger
24th Jan 2003, 18:41
Wiz, thank you for answering my question........what happens when you DONT have 1500 hrs P1 on a/c greater than 30000 Kg.
The CAsA and JAR dont treat each others licenses on an equal footing...ask any Oz / Kiwi flying in the Uk.
I will say this again... Nationals should be hired above ex-pats.
Of course ex-pats have a place and a role but Australia hardly
needs expat pilots coming into the country to sort out their
"pilot deficit".
Propaganda when you get your work permit for Oz good luck.
There will be many Australian pilots competing for the position you seek. Many perhaps could put your CV to shame.

Warhawk
24th Jan 2003, 19:43
Well for a quick answer to the original question - just look at the questions on the VB employment webpages from pilotstaffcv.com. Notice that they ask if you are an Oz citizen? Second tier Q is do you hold Oz permanent residency. So if you think foreigners can walk in - think again. JR wants Ozzies first - fair enough I suppose? Even our Kiwi friends are excluded on that basis (confirmed by an ex VB recruiter in person).

As for the hiring poms here, well call me parochial but until the JAA / UKCAA does a fair swap on licence conversions they can go jump! (IMHO). The entire EU aviation market is rigged to exclude non EU passport holders (horrendous expense and months of bullshit hassle to convert unless you are an experienced Jet PiC - in which case you probably don't need much help finding jobs anyway!). I just don't get why CASA, NZCAA etc bend over and take it by giving JAA licences a sweet deal down here without some reciprocity. I thought the Raj was over?

So an eye for an eye I reckon...... Its easier for an East European with crap English and a dodgy original licence to work in the EU than for any "Antipodean" (i.e. British) airline pilot with a good licence and English as their first language. Show the Poms the same loyalty they showed us I say!

OK rave over!......... :D

redsnail
25th Jan 2003, 00:36
I do have to agree that the conversion process is a tad one sided but the opportunities for Ozmates/Kiwi's who do slug it out are pretty good over here. I haven't seen any prejudice against Australians here. In some cases they actively look out for Australians and Kiwi's.
Giving the average pommy on the street some stick about it is a bit poor. Most of them have been greatly hurt by the implementation of JAR. In the 2 years I have been here I have only encountered one episode of "you bloody Aussies are nicking our jobs". He was a little bit under the weather and for his punishment I made him my training captain. :D

Sheep Guts
25th Jan 2003, 02:37
Wizfoz,
Just for the record in addition to the information you have provided, I believe it has to be all International Ops aswell. I maybe wrong.

Weather we like it or not, the Avaiation Job Market has become an Intenational one, maybe in 10 or 20 years all our licences will be equal. The possiblity of this, has been severely hampered by what Happened in 9/11, and its effects on foreign Aircrew getting Training in the U.S., which incidently still has the most choice in Training and value for money.Pity really.

As for British Ctizens coming to Oz to fly and for that matter any other Citizen. its ok with me. At this moment quite a few ex-Ansett Pilots are going thru the process that Wizfoz has described.
One additional extra to Paramcs post, you not only have to do the Air Law conversion exam, but also a Flight Test I beleive if you dont posses an Australian Instrument Rating.

I am allready flying in someone elses country as we speak. I have allready felt the Predijuce, from others why are you here etc. Or the conversation at the pub slowly digresses to "whats the job market back in Oz like". I get sick of it after a while.

Where I work also, and many expats will agree that this is common. Non-Nationals are only employed as Direct Entry Captains hence, there scope for Type Progession if your on a smaller type is another penalty I believe. Combined with the difficulty in getting self sponsored Type ratings in the U.S.,due to DOJ rulings etc. makes the world of expat flying more tuff.

:rolleyes:


Regards
Sheep

Wizofoz
25th Jan 2003, 04:51
No Sheepy it doesn't. Ive got my license and the only international experience I had previously was the odd hop over to Bali.

I think there is one of those "Or acceptable other experience" type caviets in the regs.

I would also point out that if VB ARE denying employment to suitably qualified and legally resident foreigners they are in breach of discrimination legislation. But then they`re just the rules aren't they!

Kiwilad
25th Jan 2003, 05:45
warhawk, I thought that kiwis and ozzies had a dual type citizenship, as we can both come and go as we please to each others countries, for work or other. Is there no kiwis at vb at all?:)

bonvol
25th Jan 2003, 11:35
Kiwilad,

Thats sorta true. It all changed on the 21st February 2001 when NZ Citizens who entered Australia were issued with an SCV (Special Category Visa).This allowed work but restricted their access to bludging off the Aussie Social Security System:D

The OZ goverment got a bit snakey when it realised thousands of Kiwis were laying on the beach at Bondi courtesy of the Aussie taxpayer. This would have been AOK so long as more Aussies were laying on Kiwi beaches than the reverse. Took 'em a while to work out the ratio was a loser for Oz so in 2001 they put a slant in the level playing field.

The rub is that many companies want you to be a Permanent Resident or Citizen and that got quite a bit harder for NZ Citizens after 21 Feb 2001. Still not too hard though.

Warhawk
26th Jan 2003, 06:12
Dear Kiwilad,

Wish it were so me old china. The prior post explained it, but yes Kiwis and Ozzies can still live and work in each other countries without any VISA crap, and the TTMRA makes licencing a doddle (albeit without any familiarisation re differing rules, etc). But that doesn't stop recruiters from making their own rules.

Yes VB does have some Kiwis there, but mostly have Oz passports or hired during the start up phase when B737 time was thin on the ground. Aside from the citizenship issue they also require a "proper" Oz ATPL (ie no validations). Its squarely aimed at favouring true 'blue" occas.

Thems the breaks............. :(

Still its their trainset and I'm sure Air NZ prefers their own as well.

No point in whinging about it, gotta get their requirements or look elsewhere I'd say!

Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower
27th Jan 2003, 09:57
the whole Aust ATPL to JAR sounds abit like the sour grapes people have over us australian scum bags that go to the states to get our FAA ATP, oh well.