Air Canada crew rooms searched for "pilfering"

[MarkD]

Source: Toronto Sun (http://www.canoe.ca/TorontoNews/ts.ts-01-16-0057.html)

Air Can crews' rooms scoured

Allegation of pilfering

By CP

MONTREAL --_Air Canada investigators flew to Paris recently to search the hotel rooms of flight-crew staff, sifting through wastebaskets to find cans of beer and soft drinks allegedly pilfered from planes.

Several crew members are now facing investigation and could be fired.

The investigation has outraged some flight attendants and pilots, who say the airline could have dealt with the allegations diplomatically instead of conducting searches.

"This is the first I've heard of an investigation of this magnitude," said Peter Foster, of the Air Canada Pilots Association.

Air Canada spokesman Isabelle Arthur would not explain why the investigators were sent overseas. "We consider it an internal matter," she said.

PHOTOS OF GARBAGE CANS

The theft investigation occurred just before the new year when crew members were on a layover in France.

Air Canada corporate security workers reportedly entered the hotel rooms of crew members, together with hotel security staff, after the crew had checked out.

They searched the rooms and took photographs of the contents of garbage cans.

Foster said the items allegedly stolen from the planes were a variety of "mixed beverages," such as cans of beer and soft drinks.

The airline's rules state crew members cannot take any food or beverage from the aircraft. Air Canada recently estimated its losses at as much as 9% of cabin stock each year as a result of employee pilfering.

Edited as one link incorrect.

[411A]

Apparently...some crew think it quite OK to walk off with company property, and yes that is exactly what these supplies may well be, company property.

Would you walk off from a party at someones house with a bottle of booze?....guess some would:( :rolleyes: :eek:

[Big Tudor]

The airline's rules state crew members cannot take any food or beverage from the aircraft.
Mmmm. So if a crew were found to have removed said items from an aircraft then they could be considered to have broken the rules. 9% of cabin stock per year must add up to a fairly hefty amount in C$. Theft is theft, whether it's taking actual money from the till or removal of stock. If it ain't yours to take, don't take it.

[Avman]

Very petty if you ask me. On a long haul I would estimate that included in the pax fare is an average of 2 to 3 drinks and a meal. Not all pax use up their "allowance" - I know I don't these days. So what's all the fuss about if those hard working F/As take a couple of cans each at the end of the flight. Come on Air Canada, this is simply ridiculous and yet another indication of the sad times we live in under the control of bean counters. Jeeeez!:mad:

[Earthmover]

Interesting. How about another way of managing this?

One European Long-Haul operator allows each crew member to take two alcoholic drinks off the aircraft at the night-stop/layover destination. Result? Known quantity written off/charged to ticket price - and absolutely no pilfering. None.

Saves the cost of the garbage-can Police as well!

[kellykelpie]

Avman
taking what is not yours to take is what all the fuss is about. If management had such a lax attitude to staff stealing, a couple of cans would turn into a bottle of wine, then cognac, then some Cartier watches from the duty-free cart. I sure these individuals knew they were doing the wrong thing. Airlines take a very serious view of crew taking stores off the aircraft, and it is now less rampant as a result.

[mustafagander]

What a sad commentary on the airline's management! :(

I can't begin to imagine how the people who dreamed up this violation of privacy hope to justify the expense. The case has no legs. My (minor) legal quals are in IR, and we studied just this sort of case. The company wouldn't have a hope in hell under Oz law. Who can swear that the occupant of the room was the person who put the objects into the bin for starters? What about the right to be present during a search, the right to representation during a search - it goes on and on.

Yes, I know that theft is theft, BUT there is also the concept of "innocent till proven guilty". Here we have a classic case of using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut.

Under Oz law, the right of the company to search employees without warrant ends when they leave company premises - in this case the a/c.

In my mob we can buy 2 cans of beer or a bottle of wine to take ashore. The system works because the price is right.

Its a pity that in these difficult times, management doesn't stick to running the shop and leave the dopey ideas till later.

[maxy101]

I agree with Mustafa, why not just buy the stuff? Surely, 2 bucks isn't too much to pay for a couple of cans?

[Avman]

kellykelpie , come on now, taking Cartier watches or litre bottles of booze from the Duty Free is not the issue here. That WOULD be stealing as those items would not have been paid for to begin with. I'm referrring to the supply of cans of beer and small bottles of wine, the cost of which is incorporated in the price of the passenger's ticket. If, for instance, I drink one glass of water instead of two or three cans of beer - then the F/A is welcome to my beer "allowance" so to speak. As far as I'm concerned it is paid for - by me!

[Faire d'income]

Any legal bods out there know if in French law it is ok to search peoples property on private premises without a warrant? The place to do this sort of thing is at customs.

Just for the information of the unenlightened these items presumably were taken from the remainder of the complimentary drinks to passengers. Most countries insist that e.g. an open bottle of wine is poured down the drain on landing! I see no harm in the crew taking this sort of thing.

The problem like anything else is the few that completely abuse the system. We have all seen this happen, but I think AirCanada's method of dealing with it is a perfect example of today's Airline management style. They may have dealt with a small problem successfully, but just think of the illwill they have created among a huge percentage of their staff. But then the words think and Airline management rarely coincide!

[admiral ackbar]

SARCASM

It's so nice to see Mapleflot treating their employees as well as they are treating their customers.

/SARCASM

[Iron City]

Taking property that isn't yours and in violation of known company policy anyway is of course wrong and whoever did it was wrong.

However, the action taken by the company at what cost (okay security people I need two volunteers to fly to Paris and photograph hotel rooms....not everybody all at once, now, can't see which hand up belongs to who) is pretty silly. even though what the crew did was wrong the company could have found a better way for management to let them know it was wrong (as if they needed reminding, must be expats because us Americans (Yank type, south of boarder) all know that Canadians would never do anything like that) and resolve the situation without being so heavy handed.

French law is different (Napoleanic Code and all that) but if it is a hotel room and it is after you checked out it isn't your property, it is the property of the hotel and I bet if a reasonable chain of custody on the contraband and evidence could be demonstrated the crew involved would at least have a lot of explaining to do. Question is, does AIRCAN bring a police complaint in France and have people arrested for theft, convicted in France and then fire them on the basis of the conviction or just sack them in Canada and then start the labor laws into action right off. Twere I AIR CAN management I wouldn't be such a&&h(*%$ right off, but if I really wanted the crew good and proper I'd do the criminal complaint in France while the crew was in France and have the thieves arrested.

[Dom Joly]

I wonder how much drink the security personnel had on there flight to and from Paris? Surely even if they had soft drinks the cost on board the cost of these drinks must have equalled the crew drinks found in the hotel! AND thats before we even begin to add in the fare taxes paid by the company to position them & accommodate them in Paris.

Don't know whether economy class drinks are all complimentary. If not, wouldn't an alibi be that you paid for them through the till during flight?

[Jet II]

Dom Joly, Avman

You both seem to be missing the point, this is not an isolated occurance. When you add up the amount of booze that is taken by the crew at the end of each sector over the whole operation, the cost is pretty substantial.

If, as you both seem to think, that it is acceptable for crew to help themselves to the booze, then is it also acceptable for Despatchers, Engineers, Loaders, Cleaners etc etc to also help themselves?

Theft is theft whatever 'spin' you put on it and as our US cousins say - 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'

[MarkD]

just in case people think I'm on AC's case.

I happened to read the papers and remembered a thread in one of the forums recently on this topic. I believe "pilfering" was what the Toronto Sun called it, unfortunately that link seems to have broken.

No offence intended, merely bringing the message!

[T_richard]

Good Morning All,

I suspect that my comments will draw rebukes to stay out of matters I know nothing about because of my status as an occasional SLF. But I don't think this is a professional pilots issue, this is an issue of personal integrity and ethics and expecting the same standard of behavior from everyone. Either you consider yourself an honest person therefore you never steal or you are a thief. There is no middle ground, there are no exceptions to being honest. The Ten Commandments doesn't say " you shall not steal anything with a fair market value in excess of $500.00 or more than once" It says " Thou shall not steal." Any rationalizing from that point is an attempt to conceal a lapse in ethical behavior.
A man who taught me most of what I know today put it simply. "There is no substitute for the truth, there is no such thing as being almost honest" Many of the CEO's that we are investigating today ignored that point, to their detriment and our financial loss. In anticipation of a rebuttal that may not come, it doesn't matter if what you stole or pilfered or pinched was worth a $1.00 or $1,000,000.00. If it doesn't belong to you and you took it, you are a thief, a crook, a robber.

Thank you

[Avman]

Jet II , I think that you missed my point - which was that said articles were paid for by the passengers that didn't consume them.

T_richard, how right you are. Therefore, I reckon we are all thieves, crooks and robbers, because if you try and convince me that you have never taken anything in your entire life I certainly won't believe you.

The taking of some drinks and food by cockpit and cabin personnel has been going on in the airline business since in-flight service began. It's a little perk of the job. And, as I say again, it is actually paid for (with the exception of airlines that don"t provide complimentary service).

[T_richard]

Avman,

As a child I was guilty of the occasional 5 fingered candy bar and inspecting mommy's wallet for wornout dollar bills. As an adult, I'm afraid you must call me a liar, because I can't recall taking anything that didn't belong to me or wasn't offered to me for free. There are no "perks" in my business, I earn a living, I use that money to buy what I want or need. End of story. I will not take your comment about not believing me to heart, since we do not know each other. Your scepticism is understandable in this day, but in my case it is misplaced. My mentor from the time I graduated from college till his death 15 years later taught me what he taught me, I would not be comfortable with myself stealing a pen, a note pad or anything else.

[Notso Fantastic]

I think T-richard is right. Times were when we finished a duty and headed for a hotel, it was tradition to take 4 beers each from the bar. Apart from hating beer, I wish I had more independance of mind when I was young and refused more often- I found the whole thing demeaning and dishonest. A supermarket worker doesn't say to himself "phew, that was a long day- I shall take 4 beers off the shelf on my way home!"!
If it ever was a 'tradition', it should stop now- there was never any justification for it, and seen in hindsight, I was obliged to be dishonest to fit in with my peers. Any questionning of 'why are we taking it?' was usually met with an aggressive reaction and justification. If crews want to drink, they should do so like everybody else does.....and pay for it themselves. Airlines can hardly prosecute theft from other departments and turn a blind eye to crews raiding the bar. Time to end this practice once and for all.

[411A]

Ah...for the days of "reverse thrust".
Expect the younger guys/gals have NO idea how it used to be, four fingers of black label was very refreshing...;)

[767-300ER]

As an Air Canada pilot, I am not offended by the company's actions and I am disappointed by the crew members involved. There was an article in the company propaganda newspaper in the past few months talking about this issue and giving a clear warning to people.

Some of the people involved were well known offenders and that's what brought their attention to the company.

Maybe some of the legal eagles here on the forum can explain to me how it's an invasion of privacy after you check out of the room? The people left the evidence in the rooms. The crew members were no longer the legal occupants of the room, the hotel allowed AC security to have a look. Sounds all above board to me.

What is even more despicable was ACPA's email response suggesting that pilots better hide the evidence when they vacate their hotel rooms. Rome is burning and ACPA is outraged by the company's actions. I'm outraged that ACPA has nothing better to do than be outraged:eek:

[kellykelpie]

When I read Avmans comments, I see how the thieves themselves justified their actions. Saying the passengers payed for the drinks but didn't drink them, therefore they are mine and not the companies is like a politician saying I didn't use my allowance for travel, so I will pocket a few bucks.
Integrity is that voice in our head which questions our actions, and how we justify them is with statements such as "It's only a few bucks" or "The passengers didn't drink them so I will"

[mustafagander]

767-300ER,

I see no invasion of privacy, but there is no legally provable link to what's in the bin and the previous occupant. The company must prove that the crew member in question actually placed any such stuff in the bin, which is manifestly impossible unless the person is stopped as s/he leaves the room and the bin searched right then. Do it any time after the occupant has physically left the room and the case has no legs.

I, too, enjoyed the "jungle juice" that our cabin crew used to produce for the crew bus, but those days are well and truly over. Our management, as I understand it, used to apply "the Nelson touch" to such goings on. Right now it's all different. Are you prepared to risk your career for a can of beer, cost $1 Oz??? I'm certainly not!!

As a former union leader, I assure you that your association MUST defend these people - that's what unions do, whether they like it or not, so let them get on with it. If their advice was to "hide the evidence", then the leadership needs replacing. I would expect their advice to be "don't do it, ever".

[bugg smasher]

So, aircrew are not only overpaid, underworked drunks, we are now petty thieves as well, or so it would seem in the eyes of the travelling public.

Aircrew, and especially the cabin staff, are very much the front line in any airline's public image. To employ methods that amount to little more than entrapment in order to catch the offending few, with the resultant press coverage of same, is to shamefully discredit the entire operation.

The Air Canada security chief who mounted this operation is a short-sighted thug, and should be relieved of his position immediately for this embarrasment. The public relations damage to Air Canada is enormous.

[T_richard]

Bugg it is not entrapment unless some one within the security section at Air Canada facilitated the removal of the booze by the crew, eg; they handed them the bottles as they deplaned and said"go hae a good time you silly kids" The "thug " was doing the job he was hired to do, if he didn't do it he would/should be fired.

I suspect that the majority of the general public on both sides of the pond have no clue that this occured. Even if they read it in the NY Times, it gets lost in the noise about Iraq, social issue, and the latest gruesome murder/rape/pilage.

My compliments to 767-300R, that is the response I would expect from an Airline Captain.

[jammers]

767-300ER

Though I to would not agree would taking anything off the aircraft at anytime for any reason I would take serious objection with you bad- mouthing your own elected association on an International airline forum......I belive it is part of your culture though, this need to 'tell' which exists at every level of government .......confidential reporting telephone no. to beat the band for anything from dogs without licences to hydrponic growing houses........anyways your elected member was only doing his/her job in communicating with his association.......unlike your company management........would it be just as despicable for your company to begin reinterpreting your contract without consultation with your members.........the growing mountain of contractual grievances would speak for themselves and your fellow pilots would be better served by you channeling your petty comments where they are really needed and leaving communication between ACPA and the world with the members who been given the responsibility to do so.........were you a tatle-tale at school by any chance?/

[M.Mouse]

T_richard

I was pilloried on another thread on Jetblast,

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76546

for espousing similar thoughts to yours. The accusation that you must steal things as well to justify the dishonesty of the accuser is a red herring.

Thank you for having the courage to voice your opinion.

Either one tries to be honest in all conduct or one doesn't. As has been said there is no such thing as a partial thief.

I have to agree (unusually!) with Notso on this one.

I think the whole issue is symptomatic of the society we have allowed to develop where children are given very few moral guidelines or limits in virtually any area by many, many parents.
The rapidly growing anarchy we all experience in everyday life is the unpleasant result.

I was brought up with a very strong sense of right and wrong. So much so that if I do behave in a less than honest fashion it greatly troubles my conscience.

I guess I would find life easier if it didn't.

My airline has a perfectly reasonable crew purchase scheme.

There is no excuse for pilfering from the aircraft and if I witness it I deal with it in an appropriate manner.

[T_richard]

M Mouse

I encountered the thread in question when it was active, I was disgusted by the casual view that some of the participants had toward theft. You are correct in your statement about the lax moral codes our children are adopting as their guide to proper social behavior. One can't expect an adult to recognize stealing for what it if they weren't taught right from wrong as a child. All of the spouting about emtrapment and "goods already paid for" are a red herring to hide the lack of a clear morlal compass. What is the honor code at West Point? " It’s a simple code all West Pointers must live by: A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do.

What else does one need to know to live a good life? Nothing ambiguous there. SOme people don't know what they don't know

[patrickal]

I don't work for an airline, I work for a computer manufacturer. They make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of computers every year. How can I justify taking just one, or a keyboard, or a mouse, for my own use? I can't. It's not mine. They pay me a salary to work, if I want more, I should ask for it or leave. I agree with T_richard. You either steal or you don't. Once you cross the line, it becomes very easy to move the "bar" up to bigger things.

As far as the privacy issue goes, who pays for the hotel room? Not the crew, but the airline.

As far as I can see, the airline warned everyone equally, then followed up with action. If those caught didn't steal, they would have had nothing to worry about. It's a shame they had to so to such great lengths to get the message across, but I would bet most employees will now think real hard about taking something they have no right to.

[767-300ER]

Mr or Mrs Jammers:


part of my culture...which culture is this????


When elected union officials state "...and ask that you govern yourselves accordingly when checking out of hotel rooms." what am I to conclude about the meaning of the union's message???

Please tell me what you think that sentence means?

PS If you are an ACPA member then you'll be aware that ACPA's illustrious leaders shut down the ACPA forum where things like this could be discussed in house.

[767-300ER]

Mustufagander:

I'm no lawyer and don't know all of the detail, but I know enough to say that the cans were specially marked with an invisible dye. Its kind of difficult for the alleged thiefs to claim that the maids put those cans in the garbage or that the previous occupant did.

Unless of course, Paris hotel workers have access to Canadian soft drink and beer cans and invisible dye and maliciously place them in airline crew rooms upon checkout or the crew member.

[bugg smasher]

Perhaps T_Richard, but I have already seen the article in several newspapers, front page on one of them, for some reason the press has the scent of blood. My suggestion to Air Canada is that security perhaps have a meeting or two with the PR department before embarking on highly controversial and embarrasing maneuvers such as this one. There are other, much more discreet ways to halt theft by certain individuals.

[T_richard]

Bugg I see you are a pilot, if you are employed by Air Canada I am sorry that these people brought any embarrassment to you. I will respectfully disagree with you view of AC's handling of this ongoing theft, but as a 23 year veteran of the investment securities business, I know what it is like to have your Co's name in the paper in this way. Peace

[mustafagander]

767-300ER,

The law requires proof . No proof, no case. You ought to be well aware of that, given that you come from the North American continent - the home of smart arse lawers.

Theft is theft - no ifs, buts or maybes, however, proper proof must be supplied. It's a basic tennet of western law.

You mention the previous occupant. Given that crews often "hot room", that has the beginnings of a good defence.

Do you see what I'm getting at? By all means prosecute thieves, but do it properly. From what we read on this thread, AC security have set themselves up to be carved to pieces in court - if the company is dopey enough to go that far.

[767-300ER]

Mustafagander

Did you read my post? If the cans of beer had been marked with an invisible dye, with a specific marking, then how do you think that can ended up in a crew room??????

Do you not think that the Corporate Security people might have thought out a few of the details about this????

How about you take 6 people, accuse them all of theft. You find the weak link person, show him the evidence of the cans, get them to implicate the others (in return for some leniency) and bingo....proof that the drinks were stolen.

This is how many police investigations work.

It's not rocket science.

[HiSpeedTape]

Who amongst us has never ever in their lifetime used the company telephone for a personal call without making a financial contribution to the company. How many of us have used the HF or ACARS for personal communications?

[Tan]

767-300ER

I'm afraid HiSpeedTape is correct. We all live in glass houses so don't be so quick to jump to judgment. By the way, how this whole scenario went down leaves a lot to be desired. This was not good security work but a massive PR blunder..

:o

[mustafagander]

767-300ER,

I think you may watch too many movies. What we have here is a civil matter, not criminal. I'll bet your company manuals and your work agreement allow for accused persons to be represented by a union person. Your union uses the same representative to represent the lot and all wll hold the line. That's how I've done it myself in a few situations.

To reiterate, there is no condoning theft. However, if you want to bust the miscreants, do it within the law and within the bounds of "natural justice". That, too, is not rocket science.

If I wish to catch out some notorious can-lifters, I will stop them as they step onto the aerobridge after arrival. If they have the goods in their posession, they're shot ducks. If I try to search their rooms after they have checked out and find the stuff, I'm a shot duck because I cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that this person had posession of it. BTW, my mob have been using marked cans and bottles for about 20 years, so we're used to it in Oz.

I think we are basically on the same side, but maybe the fact that I have had to defend some technical crew accused of this very offence makes me see the details a bit differently.

[M.Mouse]

Who amongst us has never ever in their lifetime used the company telephone for a personal call without making a financial contribution to the company. How many of us have used the HF or ACARS for personal communications?

To the first part er....never that I am aware of besides which I think UK legislation compels employers to allow employees access to a telephone for personal calls and to the second part as I charge the call to my credit card and don't steal the HF receiver how is this relevant?

Nobody is claiming to lead a perfectly virtuous life.

What is apparent is a difference in attitude between plain right and plain wrong.

A further thought, whether Air Canada, prosecutes, sacks or takes no further action it will be a brave employee that continues to pilfer Air Canada property.

BA have had a similar exercise or two in the past 10 years. Once the brouhaha has died down it does change peoples thinking and actions.

Perhaps Air Canada management aren't stupid.

[HotDog]

In my airline before my retirement, we could buy beer chits at cost. It was a system widely used to unwind in the crew bus on the way to the hotel.

[Tan]

M.Mouse

The remark that HiSpeedTape made concerning the use of the telephone and ACARS etc are indeed relevant. The telephone in my company has a bypass code for long distance calls, which in the strict sense should not be used for personal calls, however this is not always the case. Obviously you have never ever flown aircraft that are ACARS or HF equipped so there is no need to expand on this subject.

The 39 year employee in question was only a few months from retirement so why all the unnecessary fuss and wasted dollars in firing him.

This is just another example of security running amuck the most glaring example being airport security itself.

It’s the same mind set folks. Policemen do not understand aviation and never will, sad but true…

The AC management in this instant needs to give their collective heads a shake. In this current economic climate they would be well advised to keep track of the big picture. No company needs or wants this type of PR.:o

[bugg smasher]

T_richard, with all due respect, in considering the scope, grandeur, and the sheer effrontery of theft in the investment securities business, I am beginning to see how you have arrived at your point of view; morally intact, but a little jaded in my opinion, no doubt backed by substantial experience.

The nature of the piloting business, as with most other professions requiring a high degree of technical skill, generally speaking now, tends to weed out the dishonest ones at an early stage. You can't lie your way, for example, through a serious inflight emergency. The exceptions seem therefore all the more glaring.

I do not work for Air Canada, nor would I wish to in view of current management policies. By applying sledgehammers to midges, they display not only their inability to solve problems creatively, but the very nature of their collective baseball-bat mentality.

[maxalt]

In my airline before my retirement, we could buy beer chits at cost. It was a system widely used to unwind in the crew bus on the way to the hotel.

HotDog, over here you could be summarily dismissed for drinking in uniform! Does your ex employer allow crews to drink in uniform? :eek: :eek:

Oooh, the PC police are on the ball tonight.:D

[BIG PARTYR]

FIRSTLY I DO NOT CONDONE THEFT, BUT I THINK AC HAS DONE MORE DAMAGE THAN GOOD BY CREATING AN ATMOSPHERE OF NERVOUSNESS AND LOW MORAL AMONGST IT'S EMPLOYEES.

767-300ER THERE ARE POOSIBLE SCENARIOS THAT YOU HAVEN'T CONSIDERED. ie. MAYBE ONE OF THE ACCUSED DIDN'T STEAL ANYTHING BUT WAS VISITED BY SOMEONE WHO HELPED THEMSELF TO A COUPLE OF BREWSKIES AND CONSUMED THEM IN THE INNOCENT PERSONS ROOM. THE QUESTION COULD BE, WHO IS THE INNOCENT ONE? I THINK THE COMPANY'S CASE IS EASY TO REBUT.

MUSTAF THIS IS A CRIMINAL CASE - ITS THEFT UNDER.

[M.Mouse]

I presume your condescension is to cover the fact that you are wrong.

[mustafagander]

Big Partyr,

Petty theft from ordinary citizens is a CIVIL matter. Check your definitions.

Otherwise I agree with your further examples underlining the difficulties in making a case out of this. Even I would be more than confident were I their advocate. I've successfully defended tougher ones before!!!

[whatshouldiuse]

We all know when we get a job, we are supplied with pens and paper for obvious reasons...mainly to conduct Company Business. So let me ask you this:

Have you ever used the ink in the pen for anything but official purposes such as signing a credit-card form at the Gas Sataion? If so, you are stealing Ink.

Have you ever used a sheet of their paper to make out a grocery list and a "things to do list' on your plane ride home? If so, you are stealing paper.

If you answered "no" to both questions, I don't believe you !!

I do it all the time and I'm not ashamed of it. But by your definition I'm stealing according to M.Mouse and T.Richard among others...

Please give employees some slack because they'll work far harder for you if you do. And then the passengers will be happy, the crew will be happy and the company will be happy as profits go up as opposed to having no profits at all. What Air Canada did here is a real dis-incentive to produce quality service as there are no "perks" at the end. Gimme a break.

Andy

[M.Mouse]

wsiu

I wondered when you would pop up with some more attempts at justifying theft.

In a certain airline in the UK there are circa 15,000 flying staff. Lets say that each takes on average two small beers from the aircraft per month. Lets say that the beers cost the airline 25p each. That comes to £45,000 p.a. for crew theft. Or in more realistic terms the airline must carry roughly 1000 passengers per annum paying £450 each just to cover the cost.

I bet Air Canada did some research and found that the true figures were far, far worse.

Using your strange logic could you explain how one would set about defining the limit of the 'perk'? Or is it what you feel like taking on the day, a little like your attitude to hotel property?

[whatshouldiuse]

I'm truly amazed at your piousness and even more shocked to claim these people are guilty before a trial.

Think about who participated in the invention of the "invisible dye on the cans". I'd imagine Air Canada security did or I hope at least they did.

Then ask yourself this: Who searched the rooms in question?

Who's to say the cans weren't planted? Personnal vendetta or a grudge perhaps. And we all know the beauties of Camcoders..namely EDIT and ON/OFF.

I prefer to give everybody the benefit of the doudt until the FACTS are known and the parties involved are proven guilty!! Apparently, you just want to leave these people out to dry. That's where I think we have a major difference in beliefs and philosophy.

Andy

[M.Mouse]

Forgive me for not being clearer but I wasn't saying the Air Canada crew are or are not guilty.

What I am saying is that as a principle theft is wrong however one wishes to try and justify it.

Nowhere have I claimed that I am above reproach but I do try and live by a personal moral code which it is plainly obvious you and a few others disagree with

[PA38]

The bottom line is if you permanently deprive someone of something thats THEFT end of story.
Unless you work for an airline:D

[Notso Fantastic]

I'm sorry, but it's difficult to see what relevance the opinions of a Systems Consultant are to this. Not being at all experienced in what goes on in Airlines, I'm not sure you have the background to defend what is theft and pilfering- such things should stop completely.

[BIG PARTYR]

MUSTAF

IN CANADA INTERNAL THEFT FROM A COMPANY CAN, IF THE EVIDENCE MERITS, BE PROSECUTED CRIMINALLY BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL. IT IS SIMILAR TO SHOPLIFTING, BUT IT IS CONSIDERED A FAIR BIT MORE SERIOUS BY THE COURTS DUE TO THE POSITION OF TRUST THAT AN EMPLOYEE HAS. IF PROVEN GUILTY IN FRONT OF THE WRONG JUDGE, THESE PEOPLE COULD VERY EASILY END UP WITH A CRIMINAL RECORD - A BIT HARSH OVER A FEW CANS OF WHATEVER, BUT POSSIBLE.

I THINK AC COULD HAVE HANDLED THEIR INTERNAL THEFT PROBLEMS A LITTLE MORE STRATEGICALLY ie. MAKING THE EMPLOYEES AWARE OF THE EFFECTS OF THE LOSES AND THE COMPANIES INTENTIONS OF PUTTING A STOP TO IT. SNEAKING UP ON A FEW UNSUSPECTING PEOPLE AND MAKING AN EXAMPLE OF THEM IS ASKING FOR A MORAL DISSASTER (ESPECIALLY WHEN MOST EMPLOYEES HAVE TAKEN SOMETHING FROM TIME TO TIME)

[T_richard]

Ah Big Party As you probably know already, typing your entire message in CAPS is the internet equivalent of yelling at someone.

I am amused by the lengths that people have gone to, to justify these stolen drinks. Ink from a pen, personal telephone calls. My limited understanding of the law is that it doesn't work with quite the rigidity portrayed in this thread. Using the company pen, maybe even taking the company pen home to write the great British/Canadian/American novel while technically theft won't be pursued by most companies. As I understand the previous postings, Air Canada had a serious problem with large numbers of staff helping themselves to the liquor supplies repeatedly. I also am led to believe that there was a company wide warning about this behavior and the companie's intent to crack down on it. Bottom line, they were warned, the continued to steal, they were caught, now they pay.

The way I see it, if you want to believe it wasn't stealing, no argument is going to change your POV. Believe what you want, life will straighten it out for you.

I'm outta here

Peace

[ww1]

I would tend to agree with M.Mouse - the accounting would of course differ with each airline regarding the cost of the beer, pax ticket costs to cover food not consumed, etc, etc.. but fact remains that these things do add up. And with the state of the airline industry being as tenuous as it is, who's to say that all those beers won't eventually amount to a serious chunk of change that even a big company can't ignore? Beer is cheap. I buy my own, thank you very much.

[jammers]

BIG PARTYR

Are you losing your eyesight......OR WHAT!!!!!!!

[whatshouldiuse]

You wrote:

"what relevance the opinions of a Systems Consultant are to this. Not being at all experienced in what goes on in Airlines, I'm not sure you have the background to defend what is theft and pilfering"...

sorry to inform you but EVERYBODY has the background to defend theft and pilfering. Without boring you to tears, let me you about a really nice scam I uncovered in the early '80s at a company I was consulting at.

The loading dock at this place was staffed from 7:00am until 3:30pm. After that, a phone was provided and the Computer Operators would open the loading dock and sign for the equipment. In short time, irregardless of who signed for the equipment, instead of finding 8 controllers the next morning there would only be 7. This went on for a couple of months and bear in mind, this was before Video Survelleince. Needless to say both the company and IBM were more than a little upset at the missing equipment.

About 10 weeks into this and having stopped deliveries after 3:00pm, no more equipment went "missing" Imagine my surprise on the Tuesday after Labor Day when our IBM engineer came in and told me he knew where to find the equipment. Needless to say I asked for a further explanation. It turns out this IBM engineer was driving around his neighborhood with his family and saw a sign for a garage sale. Sure enough, right on this guy's lawn were 8 or 9 controllers been sold either intact or for their parts. The individual selling them was very flexible.

Turns out this individual was one of the Computer Operators at the site in question. After his shift was over, he was simply opening the loading dock, driving in, and shoving a controller into his flatbed truck. Then he left.

Of course, he obviously wasn't the sharpest stick in the forest as evidenced by his attempt to sell the said equipment. :D :D

I guess that's why a Systems Consultant might have had some experience in this. Simply because THEFT is THEFT irregardless of the industry involved.

Andy

[Max Angle]

Taking drink from the aircraft has been part of the airline industry since before Pontius was a pilot. It is now, quite rightly in my opinion, looked on as something that should not be happening. However some sort of sense is needed in applying the rules, the famous (or infamous) BA sausage incident at LHR recently is an example of rules gone mad. There is a big difference between emptying the first class bar into your bag to start the room party off with 5 bottles of Krug at £60 a go and taking a bottle of mineral water with you because the hotel water is undrinkable.

[reggiespotter]

As an aviation professional but not being a pilot, and after having read this thread, it's so easy to understand why so many pilots' colleagues hold them in utter and absolute contempt. Here we have a group (i.e., pilots) that is the best paid of all aviation professionals and whose allowances/per diems would quite often exceed the annual salaries of their colleagues on the ground wingeing because some of their number were sprung helping themselves to company stores.

Shame on anyone who takes their employers property!! It is a fact that the odd telephone call, a few pages of photocpying here and there are part and parcel of all corporate life, regardless of industry. What falls outside accpted practice in the name of 'perks' is the systemic removal - I would call it theft - of company materials be such material be aircraft stores or widgets. The fact that a/c stores and pax amenities have been included in the ticket price is immaterial: the simple fact is that these stores are NOT yours. They belong to someone else and quite clearly should remain where they are.

I have to ask Musthafagander how he can defend the indefensible? The fact that technicalities are used to escape a charge of theft must indeed be a hollow victory....resort to a technicality often implies guilt but of course everyone is innocnet until proven guilty. I wouldn't want to be working alongside someone who was a tad light fongered - I would never know if his or her fingers would extend to my goods and chattels.

Good riddance to thiefs!!!

:(

[mustafagander]

reggiespotter,

Defending what you call "the indefensible" is easy. At the time I was running a union, and all my members are innocent until proven guilty. If you care to read my posts on this subject, you may notice that I want proof.

Maybe at some time in your life you, too, will want the burden of proof to be on your accuser. Technicalities are not the issue - prove your accusations or withdraw them. No ifs, buts or maybes.

It is sometimes a real disappointment to see how ready some people are to try and convict people on the basis of rumour for something of which they may well be innocent.

Just to recap - There is no excusing theft, but before I convict someone I must have proof. You know, that stuff that will stand up in court - not what you think, what you can prove.

[reggiespotter]

Musthafa....

I cannot disagree with what you put but isn't the standard of proof in the industrial world the less onerous 'on the balance of probabilities' rather than the criminal standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt'? When evidence in the view of 'the ordinary man' points to guilt, then on the balance of probabilities it is guilt. Thus, if we're not in a criminal court then it's a fair case of 'gotcha' and the culprit must go..... game, set and match. But that doesn't apply to our little Aussie battler.

Pip Pip!!:)

[Max Angle]

Just to recap - There is no excusing theft, but before I convict someone I must have proof. You know, that stuff that will stand up in court - not what you think, what you can prove Amen to that.

[Notso Fantastic]

Reggiespotter- what insulting comments:
<<Here we have a group (i.e., pilots) that is the best paid of all aviation professionals and whose allowances/per diems would quite often exceed the annual salaries of their colleagues on the ground wingeing because some of their number were sprung helping themselves to company stores. >>

I am a pilot. I accept the warnings have been loud and clear. I find any sort of theft objectionable. I think you will find very very few pilots would hazard their careers and try and nick something, so perhaps you would care to rephrase! What I would say is that a lot of pilfering goes on by the crew- I keep hearing anecdotal evidence from my colleagues who witness it with horror these days. But the vast majority goes on by those who service aeroplanes- cleaners/caterers etc. I have even pulled up at the aeroplane preflight in a car and seen cleaners raiding the newly loaded ovens and aircraft dry stores- crew supplies were often taken. That is why your sausage was so severely punished. It has to be stopped once and for all. Pilfering is disgusting.
Some 20 years ago, my father ran a small technical company. He purchased 12 sets of highly sensitive electrical measuring apparatus- some sort of Avos. They were aboout £1000 each apparently. Over time, they were all 'replaced' with war surplus stuff you could buy in markets for £30 by the staff at the time- people who one would think judged themselves ' true & honest', but pilfering from your employer was somehow 'OK'. There is no explanation or excuse, and sackings are the only answer until it gets through. But don't tar pilots like what you have!

[Tan]

Notso Fantastic

You're absolutely right; pilots by the very nature of the profession are "risk managers". To steal off the aircraft is not worth the risk for pilots. Granted that some F/A's and ground personnel think differently, because they have less to lose or whatever.

Most of the folks on this thread have no idea what's it like to be on a L/O; it's one of those things that you have to experience yourself. Perhaps if they did they wouldn’t be so quick to rush to judgment...







;) ;)

[NG_Kaptain]

On any trip the crew are allowed to drink any amount of water, soft drinks or juice. Many times on a ten hour sector I may choose to ask for a cola and a glass of ice or any other beverage (non alcoholic of course), what if I elect not to drink it at the time and place it in my flight bag, this is a drink that I'm entitled to and permited to have but decide to defer it til I reach the hotel. Does it make me a thief to take it off the flight with me ? or is it preferable to pour it down the loo. What about the crew meal you dont feel like eating at the time , but save for later, does that make you a thief? Perhaps the Air Canada people are looking at large scale theft and the selling of company stores, that I can understand, but not taking a Coke or a snack off for later consumption.

[Rollingthunder]

We're looking at theft and attempted auctions of a few high value rotables. We're also looking at pilfering. Spend a $ or Euro or GBP on a soft drink. The ice cube machine is down the corridor. And Free. Don't try to re-fill the mini-bars bottles of vodka and tequila with water.


It's a tough business. Honesty counts. Toblerone bars are nice but too expensive. Rooms are block booked by airlines.

[Airbubba]

>>We're looking at theft and attempted auctions of a few high value rotables. We're also looking at pilfering. Spend a $ or Euro or GBP on a soft drink. The ice cube machine is down the corridor. And Free. Don't try to re-fill the mini-bars bottles of vodka and tequila with water. <<

Yep, as you know a lot of crews smuggle liquor and everything else out of the galley and then try every trick in the world to cheat the minibar in the room. The airline business is full of petty thieves from my experience.

Was the AC crew at the Meridien Etoile? It has minibars that try to record bottle movement but are notoriously prone to charge 100 euros everytime you slam the door.

[BIG PARTYR]

T_richard and jammers

Sorry for being so inconsiderate. I hope I dodn't hurt your FEELINGS!

[Flight Management]

Just get crew to pay cost for items removed for overnights. Cheaper than a hotel bar and the airline don't feel ripped.

[jpsingh]

I think there needs to be a balance to all this where opnions are fluctuating between the sublime to the ridiculous. It seems to be a common practice with aircrew/cabin staff to take home stuff from the flights but if an airline has a policy then it obviously has to be respected. The crews being searched or rather hotels being searched after they have checked out is fetching it too far.l