Starting ATPL Groundschool

[Max Drift]

Just out of interest, for those about to or have just begun the ATPL groundschool what was your level of flying experience before you started? e.g 100 hours, 300 hours, IMC, Night? Every school quotes marginally different requirements.

Just wondering is all.

[Rote 8]

Max Drift

Personally speaking I started the groundschool with 70 hrs and a PPL. You will probably find that the groundschools requirements for a number of hours are actually a recommendation rather than a stipulation.

My understanding, which carries no guarantees is that you can not commence the CPL course without having 150 hours in your log book (and completion of either CPL or ATPL examinations, the former of which, it is generally held are not worth doing since the chances are that you will want to do the ATPL’s at some later stage anyway).

I am doing my ATPL’s distance learning and since I am working full time taking quite a long time over them. At the same time I am building hours and hopefully will have around 150 hours at about the same time as I complete the exams. If you are doing distance learning full time then I would guess that you would want 150 hours before starting.

An additional advantage for myself is that I am maintaining currency throughout the duration of the course.

At the end of the day it really depends upon how you are doing your training. However I will say, (again in my opinion) that I don’t think that the additional hours will help you with the material in the course.

[mintfavour]

I will hopefully be starting distance learning some time in the new year, Im intend to do the same as the above person is doing. Bristol I think recommended that you got your IMC before starting the ATPL theory.

I also like to add that out off the 150 Hours required 50 off them must be P1 before starting the CPL.

Good luck

Mint

[Rote 8]

mint

Received your message yesterday but am unable to respond to it at present. I sent you an e mail using the address in your profile but I am not sure if you received it. If you did not then send me a mail and I will reply to it.

Regards

cDTA

[redsnail]

I had 4500 hours before I started the JAR ATPL theory.
Ranging from C150's to Dash 8's.

[topunicyclist]

cdta, I have sent you an e-mail as per the e-mail address in your profile.....

[monkeyboy]

Mintflavour, I'm interested to know where you got your info about the number of PIC hours an applicant must have before starting the CPL (the flying training).

You state 50 hrs PIC yet when I spoke to somebody at OATS today they mentioned 90 hrs PIC.

Is this something that varies from school to school or is this a JAA reg? Does anybody know?

MB :)

[Maverick 007]

The JAA states that you should have 150 Hrs before starting the CPL phase. This has to include 90 Hrs. P1. Any further info can be got from the CAA website. Any questions please give me a ring sometime

[pipergirl]

i think you will find it is 50 PIC hrs....
out of experience, please find out the hours officially rather than speaking to people who give numbers of the top of their head...
check out www.srg.caa.co.uk (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk) , go to flight crew licencing and then follow the links into cpl requirements....... :rolleyes:

[monkeyboy]

OK, I'm ready to be shown otherwise but if you take a look at this pdf file and study Section D I'm pretty sure it's saying 100 hrs PIC. So, Pipergirl, where are you getting your figure from?

I think I'm going to have to speak to somebody down there at Gatwick, aren't I.
http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_gid24.pdf

[SuperTed]

The only thing that you need before starting the ATPL theory course is a PPL. You only need 100 hours P1 before you start the CPL flying course and 150 hrs TT.

Therefore it makes much more sense to sit all the ATPL exams and then clock the hours up in Florida say. Then you will be totally keyed up for the CPL flying course; rather than doing the hours first and spending the next year doing the D/L ATPL and then doing the CPL. Thats if you intend to go away from blighty to clock the hours!

Also the IMC is quite low down the list. Many people on the CPL fail on the VFR Nav section, hence you might as well fly most of those 100 hrs visually rather than IMC giving you more practice before moving over to instruments.

I'm sure all this makes sense!!

Furthermore an IMC and 4000 hours in a PA28 will not help you with most of this ATPL material due to there being many things that a GA pilot will not have come across. For instance FMCs, LRGs, convergency etc etc!

ST

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: SuperTed ]

[pipergirl]

sorry about that monkeyboy,
it is 100 PIC hours...i had 50hours (which is 50hrs x country)in my head, as i was looking at that website last week, the numbers stuck in my head and i obviously got them mixed up.......
but i suppose at the end of the day, i have just proved the point i had made. don't take anybody's word for it. check it out properly via the caa or their website :)

[ElNino]

Not sure where all these figures of 50 hours are coming from. I started in Jerez with the grand total of ONE hour. However, possibly different for a non-integrated course, although I think you'll find the only requirements hours wise are for continuing the flying aspects of the course.
Also you don't need 150 hours before starting the CPL "phase." Given that every flight after the PPL test is geared towards the CPL, I would consider my CPL phase thus started after 50 hours. As far as I can remember you might need about 150 hours before you can take the CPL test though. I did mine around the 150 mark.

[mad_jock]

There are different rules for full time courses, who if they drop out at any point before the final GFT don't even get a PPL.

Reading from Capt Swans Guide to FCL.

You need 150hrs before you can start modular CPL course. 200 hours before you can apply for the CPL lic.

And 200 hours before you can start a FI's course. No stipulation how many hours you need for IR.

Has anyone heard of doing you IR before your CPL? I presume to get the decrease in hours for the CPL course.

MJ

[ElNino]

You can't fly commercially with an IR taken before the CPL test (i.e. you can fly with a PPL/IR without having done a CPL). However, to obtain a CPL/IR, it must be done in that order.

[Send Clowns]

The rules are :

For integrated course:

No requirement to start.

For modular course (full-time or otherwise)

ICAO nation PPL to start CPL or ATPL groundschool
150 hours to start CPL flying
100 hours P1 for issue of CPL
(plus some detail as to hours breakdown, but these are the basics)

[rolling circle]

A creditable effort from Send Clowns and almost correct. It is not quite true to suggest that there are no requirements to start an Integrated ATP course since Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(1) states that an applicant "....has sufficient knowledge of Mathematics and Physics to facilitate an understanding of the theoretical knowledge instruction content of the course." and also that an applicant "....shall demonstrate the ability to use the English language in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.200"

Incidentally, I cannot find any reference in JAR-FCL1 for possession of a PPL being a pre-requisite for commencement of either CPL or ATP theoretical knowledge training, perhaps he/she could provide the appropriate reference??

ElNino is, however, completely wrong. Under JARs an IR is independent of the licence. When a PPL holder gains a CPL all ratings (Class, Type, Instructor, Instrument) included in the PPL are transferred automatically to the CPL.

mad_jock is also wrong. Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(1) states at paragraph 5 "An applicant failing or unable to complete the entire ATP(A) course may apply to the Authority for the theoretical knowledge examination and skill test for a lower licence and, if applicable, an instrument rating". For information, there is no hours requirement before commencing an IR(A) modular course, the requirement is to hold either a PPL(A) or CPL(A) either of which must include a night qualification. Also, you only need 150 hours to apply for a CPL if you have completed an integrated course.

It is worth bearing in mind that, within the JAA Member States, the ultimate authority for licence requirements is now JAR-FCL. Individual National authorities may not impose requirements more stringent than those in JAR-FCL and there is a right of appeal if you think that is happening. Thus a pre-entry requirement not supported by JAR-FCL is unenforceable.

[Send Clowns]

Afraid I restricted my brief to flying matters, rolling circle.

Also I can't provide I reference, though I am certain a PPL is required. I was a ground instructor at the late, lamented SFT, and we had to have photocopies to check they were held. When I did my ATPL there was some concern from the sales staff that my FAA PPL was not sufficient, but on looking it up any nation of issue being an ICAO member state was all that was required.

[ElNino]

Completely wrong? Oops... Didn't mean to mislead anyone, must have gotten some bad gen.

[Send Clowns]

No worries El Nino, you were right about he integrated course!