New Zealand BK117 Accident

[NRDK]

I guess it was a big surprise.....still glad to see it had a happy ending


TAKEN FROM AN NZ PAPER REPORT

Injured rescue helicopter pilot makes safe landing

An injured rescue helicopter pilot hovered her damaged machine for an hour before landing safely at Hood Aerodrome in Masterton last night.

The Lifeflight Trust helicopter, operated by Helilink Ltd, had earlier struck trees in the Rimutaka Ranges. It had been called out to transport an injured motorcyclist from Masterton Hospital to Wellington.

Police said today the pilot's hand was injured and possibly broken when a tree smashed the cockpit window, also injuring a doctor onboard.

The damaged helicopter limped on to Masterton where it circled above the Hood Aerodrome for about an hour while emergency services constructed a makeshift landing bed of tyres.
Masterton Fire Service station officer Gary Nielsen said fire fighters were called to the aerodrome about 10.45pm. The helicopter had received some "impact damage" to a landing skid and was unable to land because it was unbalanced.
The pilot was forced to hover above the landing site while fire fighter cut off the other skid.

Senior Sergeant Terry O'Neill of Masterton police said the all-female helicopter crew of four, including a doctor and a nurse from Kapiti Health, got out of the helicopter while the pilot hovered above the landing site.

After the skid was removed, the pilot manoeuvred the craft on to the tyres and shut the engine down without problems.
Police closed roads to the aerodrome and residents, many in their dressing gowns, came out to see what was happening.
"It was touch and go, we were relying on her being a good pilot and we only had one go at it and she was really low on fuel, but she did it," Mr Nielsen said.
"It could have been disastrous."

Wairarapa Ambulance Service station officer David Long said bits of tree were embedded in the helicopter and inside it.
Ambulance staff treated the doctor and pilot.
"She was very, very sore when the adrenaline wore off but she had managed to fly for an hour with (the injury)," Mr Long said.

A fixed wing aircraft flew from Wellington to take the injured motorcyclist and the pilot to Wellington Hospital.

The Civil Aviation Authority will investigate the incident.

[

[Arm out the window]

They don't make those skids like they used to, eh?

[Shawn Coyle]

There'll be a very good story about this one when it finally comes out.

[ShyTorque]

Firefighters cut the skid off? Good job.

Lucky they didn't try to do what they normally do - cut the roof off!

[Granny]

I have just read of an accident in NZ involving a BK117 on a night rescue mission, apprantly it hit a tree taking off a rear stabilser one skid and smashed windows etc and in the process the pilot received severe injuries to her hand. The A/C diverted to an airfeild where an emergency landing was made on a bed of tires after hovering for an hour and the firemen cutting off the other skid. The media is hailing the pilot as a hero, --give me a break if she didnt go round crashing into things she wouldnt have to make emergency landings in the dark.

[t'aint natural]

Granny: Congratulations on your uncanny ability to make instant judgements on something you know nothing about, your unashamed readiness to condemn, and your charitable instincts. You should be in the media.

[roundwego]

Was she trying to park in the ladies only car park in Aukland ?

http://www.geocities.com/turbobandi/carpark.jpg

[DBChopper]

Congratulations Granny,

Your end comments go to prove once and for all that, in the helicopter community as in the world at large, there really are some prats.

Get your facts straight before slagging off a fellow pilot on a worldwide site. Your snide comments are out of place amongst what I have found to be a collection of open-minded individuals.

[Capn Notarious]

There is a quote about snatching success from the jaws of disaster, which I cannot fully recall to mind.
I believe the American pilot Chuck Yeager referred to, 'THE RIGHT STUFF'
Apparrently there was a lot of that, in the pilots actions of recovering, from 'a situation'.
So let's all be chivalrous and refrain, from any inappropriate additions to this thread.

[All Blacks]

With regards to this accident the flight was a (supposed to be) simple transfer from Wellington to Masterton, up and over the Rimitukas to pick up a patient sometime between 12.00am and 1.00am (not sure of exact time). For some reason the helicopter hit the top of the trees on the top of the mountain range and needless to say the difference between being here and not being here was about 4 inches.

Yes she did a good job re getting the machine down on the ground at Hood Aerodrome safely, albeit missing one whole skid section and one of the rear stabs. But a couple of questions have to be asked:

1. Why was she so low that she hit the trees in the first place, especially during night operations.

2. Were there any contributing factors that caused the aircraft to be so low at that point.

My personal opinion is that the term "hero" doesnt really apply in this case, at least not until the full facts are known, because it MAY have been pilot error that caused the accident in the first place, or, the term could be aptly applied if in fact there was some sort of mechanical problem prior to the impact.

These are only personal opinions.

AB

[t'aint natural]

When you know the answers to the questions you pose, you can start dishing out stick. Not before.

[All Blacks]

T'AintNatural

Not sure where I am dishing out stick as you put it. I posed a couple of legit questions and made a personal opinion about using the word Hero. This is not having a shot at her or anyone else, its a personal opinion which I am entitled to, as are you.

AB

[keepin it in trim]

A couple of points for all to bear in mind:

Nobody died (thankfully).

Most incidents of this kind fall into the category of there but for the grace of God go I.

I have a reasonable amount of experience of flying night helicopter rescue and when things start to go wrong, for whatever reason, the situation can rapidly become difficult to keep on top of. Whatever the initial cause of this incident, the pilot performed admirably in recovering from a difficult situation without loss of life. Bigger brains than mine will pick out the cause and hopefully whatever it was we will all learn something from it.

[Granny]

To DB Chopper and It aint natural
I have made comments on something I do know about and I do have the facts, as All Blacks said it was a simple night transfer over a mountain range something you Poms would not have encounted.
I was not slagging off a fellow pilot merly pointing out the facts.
I dont believe she was a hero she merly crawled out of the hole she dug herself.

[Steve76]

I think quoting "but for the grace of god I go..." is BS.

I have made plenty of mistakes. Nothing to do with Gods grace and I think it all sounds fatalistic. The big questions in all these incidents is whether we set ourselves up by being dumb, disorganised or unskilled or we are plain unfortunate.
"but for the grace of god I go" is a cop-out.

Just one mans opinion.

[The Auditor]

Sounds very Chauvenistic to me.............

Did she beat you for the job..or was that some other type of sour grapes.......

No wonder you work in the Middle East where the testostrone is enshired in the sacrements!!

Back off...........before someone calls you a Pratt!!!

[All Blacks]

Hey Guys lets keep the personal insults out of this and keep it professional. Its not Just Helicopters remember.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on items, events, accidents, incidents, whatever, and each has to be respected. Slamming someone because you dont like what they write is one thing, posting a legit rebuttal is also another option.

Again, just my opinions.

AB

[keepin it in trim]

Steve 76

The point I was trying to make, which you seem to have misunderstood, is that we all make mistakes, the machine can break on any one of us, a moments inattention or insufficient prior planning can bite.

My point is, as you have admitted yourself, something like this could, whatever the cause, happen to anyone. Hence my comment, which I don't think is fatalistic. It is fatalistic if once something has gone wrong you throw up your hands and just give in despite the fact that the situation is recoverable. Once you are in the mire how you dig yourself out says something about you.

Just my opinion, please note I haven't found it necessary to insult you to make my point.

For Granny,

The mountains in the UK may not be huge but believe me, the weather conditions to be experienced in them can still be severe.

[Irlandés]

roundwego,

your picture doesn't load although I managed to see it at your website. If you ask me (and all things considered) it's in pretty bad taste.

Capn Notarious

Might the quote be... "Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat"?

Irlandés

[Steve76]

Keepin it in trim,

Sorry, that wasn't intended to be personal.
That little phrase gets tossed around here a considerable amount and my comment was merely a reflection of my thoughts on that.
I guess I would rather quote, " but for the grace of god that tree wasn't a foot taller....:) "

[Heliport]

Surely what matters most is that the pilot is still alive, whether or not she made a mistake?

[John Eacott]

Granny,

Not your brightest post, "a simple night transfer over a mountain range something you Poms would not have encountered." I suspect a few SAR/EMS pilots in UK might be able to enlighten you as to the terrain and weather to be found in many parts of the British Isles.

[keepin it in trim]

Steve 76

Thanks for that, and I can certainly agree with your last quote!

[Red Wine]

Not knowing this crew or operator.........but certainly know the tasks that were being asked that night.......

I guess we all know the servicability of the aircraft prior to the contact with the trees, the actual weather onsite...IFR...VFR....rain, turbulence, CB's, mountain waves, icing, visibility...........because if we don't, we surely can't pass any type of informed comment, yet alone judgement.

[soggyboxers]

There was a post on here only 2 weeks ago about a fatal crash in Nigeria which managed to steer clear of the informed, or otherwise, speculation of the type we see here about this accident in New Zealand. I'm sure that there are people who also know some of the facts about that (Nigerian) accident, but at least they have the decency to keep their OPINIONS to themselves until such time as an official report has been issued. It's a shame that some of the posters on this thread have not seen fit to exercise some more restraint - maybe a reflection on their maturity, or lack thereof.
:mad:

[pohm1]

Snr Sgt quotes " all female helicopter crew"

In most accident reports it doesn't appear necessary to describe an "all male crew."

Has this been contributory to the negative theme of this thread?

[Steve76]

OK. SO no slagging or rumours about anything....
Then can someone make a point of reporting the outcome of the investigations into incidents we discuss.
Remember the 412 smacking the photographer prior to going out on a skydiver hop? Whatever happened there??

[Hingeless Rotor]

I was trying to work out what would make me descend below lowest safe at night on a transfer flight………to be honest, I could think of b_gger all, other than an emergency. Even a mechanical problem in the BK would have to be pretty severe to force me down, and given that they could continue flight and hover for an hour suggests that there was no ‘prior’ mechanical problem. Of course they wouldn’t task a helicopter to transfer a patient that would be affected by altitude or vibration so I ruled that out as well.

Then I thought of Icing. I guess icing is really an emergency in itself, and is one of the few things that could force an aircraft to descend below lowest safe.

If this was the case then I have to admit that we probably shouldn’t be too hard on the pilot. But if it wasn’t…………………………hmmmmmm.

What would you do if you had icing in this scenario.?

[Irlandés]

I've been doing night-flying in Auckland the past week and icing is one thing you can rule out...

Irlandés

[SASless]

Being a current BK pilot...having flown EMS....also having flown in the UK at night and in the "mountains" such as you call them....knowing a few female pilots.....etc.... I somehow feel qualified to speak to the many comments offered so far. It is maybe a bit rude to make a joke....at times such as these.....and I support the concept that "except for the Grace of God....go I!"......to pop off with some off the wall observations about a pilot who had a spot of bad luck....for whatever reason....without knowing the true circumstances sure strikes me as being designed to evoke comments taking them to task.

The Lady recovered from a bad situation and ultimately landed the aircraft, delivered the patient, and I hope all is well that ends well for her, the crew, and the patient. She is not the first nor the last helicopter pilot to run over a tree.....they seem to leap up and fetch us a smart knock to the ego every now and then.

I sure hope her detractors remember this , when it is their turn in the barrel....for it is surely coming as bad as their judgement seems to be from reading their comments.

[BBBiggles]

Fine and fair answer Sasless. I was beginning to think that errors only happened within a certain gender. Now, come fellow pilots, stop beating up on your own. Who hasn't screwed up a time or two, or made a wrong choice, etc... and paid for it one way or another. Unfortunately the price is sometimes incredibly high, this is the part where we're to learn something from it.

[spraygear]

Also glad it had a happy ending, however it must be said, isn't she better off in the Kitchen? awaiting rebuttal....;)

[Red Wine]

Now there are two confirmed Pratts!!

[Granny]

Spraygear -
that was a terrible comment about her being better off in the kitchen, it was a late night flight she should have been in the bedroom
To flungdung
An armchair expert I am not but your right about having too little to occupy me, however I do fly at night in mountains and IFR and EMS etc etc perhaps if she went IFR over the top instead off VFR into the mountains she would not have hit a tree, or at least maintained VFR minimas she would have seen where she was going;)
I too await rebuttal!!;) ;)

[Labarynth Seal]

Granny & Spraygear - :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sasless - Very professional comment - I would have expected nothing less from a man of your experience.

Just one observation from the comments is that it was a dark evening. Nothing was mentioned if she was wearing NVG's or not?

I work for the Norwegian Air ambulance (Flying BO105 which is a single man pilot operation) and they have just started sending us on all on NVG certification. The thing is, if she had NVG's on, could her peripheral vision been reduced. But if as Red Wine said I guess we all know the servicability of the aircraft prior to the contact with the trees, the actual weather onsite...IFR...VFR....rain, turbulence, CB's, mountain waves, icing, visibility...........because if we don't, we surely can't pass any type of informed comment, yet alone judgement
We don't know the full metar for that evening. So no-one has the right to hurl derogatory femminist crap at a fellow pilot.

Without blowing sunshine out of her arse, but don't forget, she managed to fly the machine whilst injured, and the make an emergency landing after having to hang around for an hour and then land the damn thing without injuring more people. Deserves a medal, if not some serious fellow professional praise.

LS

[Amazon man]

I know very little about flying helicopters and less still about EMS operations etc, however whatever mistakes were or were not made, by anyones standard this lady has got to be congratulated on her flying.

To have continued whilst injured and hovered a helicopter for over an hour which I would think is no mean feat in itself, how can anybody bring themselves to criticize this pilot.

Any mistakes made are for the authorities to investigate, I for one would be intersted in finding out who the lady is and where she trained and I will book a PPL/H there tomorrow.

To those of you out there who have displayed a little anti female in the cockpit comments I would suggest those sort of opinions should have been consigned to the last century. As an airline pilot I can tell you that in this day and age that sort of attitude is not tolerated, its all part of CRM.

[Steve76]

I don't get why we have to congratulate someone for hovering for an hour. What was the option? Roll the thing up and do worse than she already had done??
There should be not pats on the back here but merely a recognition that at least the created problem was dealt with.
If she was that badly injured, why did another pilot not climb in and take over?
Sounds like a lot of media BS to me.
For those in the know....was the pilot CP?

[Labarynth Seal]

Steve - So a pat on the back is not recognition...in your eyes. Now I know you are experienced in EMS operations and you have been, I am sure through some hairy moments. But did those hairy moments get you in the news or even onto pprune?

:confused: :confused:

I agree with you that there is alot of Media BS going on here, and not alot of fact verification, but, just exactly was the last time you were hit by a tree, and then got back in your chopper, moderately injured in an arm and then proceed to fly back to wherever she came from and then having just one skid.......yeah in know, any one can hover for an hour.......then have a fireman cut the other skid off and then land in a bed of tyres......Sorry mate, but not even your days are that action packed.....:eek: :eek:.....Can only presume this was a single pilot operation. She did well not to endanger any more lives, thats all i am saying.

LS

[All Blacks]

Lifeflight Trust in Wellington is a single pilot operation. The lady in question came from South Africa where she was a co-pilot on S-61s from what I understand. Not sure if or where she got her command and on what.

AB

[MBJ]

Whatever the reason for the initial damage the pilot did pretty well to keep on trucking, great incentive to do so of course, because her arse was in a sling as well if she didn't.

Does anyone know if the machine had a serviceable Radar Altimeter? I presume it must have done if it was an EMS ship?

I notice from Flight Mag that CFIT is on the up and up amongst our FW brothers..so lets try to make sure its not contagious?

[helmet fire]

A few answers to above Qs:

MBJ is right, CFIT is a very "popular" cause of helo accidents, more so than fatalities from engine failures, tail rotor failures, hydraulic failures, governor failures, etc. So what do we train for? And what systems do we make redundant? Worth a passing thought.

The serviceability of radar altimeters are largely irrelevant to this incident I would have thought - unless there is some ground warning system attached, or she was purposely flying below LSALT in which case she would have been glued to it. I dont particularly monitor my RADALT when night/IFR in the cruise, but I sure do in the descent.

Labarynth Seal:

I dont know for sure, but I very much doubt she was on NVG because she would have seen the mountain!! Unless she was in cloud, the whole thing is unlikely to have happened on NVG. And you dont require peripheral vision to see mountains in front of you on NVG.

While I am at it: WHY WASN'T THE LADY WEARING NVG? Why dont the civil aviation authorities pull their effen fingers out and MANDATE the use of NVG at night? Why are we still flying in black air at all? This mentaility is akin to negligence. See my comments above on the fact that CFIT is such a large problem in our industry. IMHO, Every night VFR CFIT since 1990 should be blamed on the fact that the civil aviation authorities failed to make use of the largest advance in helicopter EMS safety since the introduction of IFR twins. I choose 1990 because most developed countries would have had a sufficient military knowledge base for the operation of NVGs by 1990 from which to spread to the civil industry. I am not saying NVG is the panacea for the problem - but it I believe it would have the most significant impact on accident rates by almost eliminating NVFR CFIT.

Just MHO.

[AuntyDolly]

Personally Knowing this operator, I have been privy to some information. The Westpac, wellington Helicopetr operation is not IFR, is single pilot, and does not use NVG. In recent times they have lost some of their more experienced drivers, one for an overseas position that pays more (everyone pays more than NZ operators) and their CP left for an IFR position with another NZ operator. I am told the pilot in question was flying up a gully (at night) to avoid inclement weather when she placed herself in the unenviable position of attempting to outfly terrain. She used bad judgement. The operator must bear part of this blame. Like most NZ operators they work to a shoestring budget. The New Zealand operators of EMS aircraft, do not pay well, and do not tend to keep up with the rest of the world when it comes to buying decent equipment such as NVG, or even new helicopters. The Lifeflight Trust in Wellington lease the aircraft. Airwork of Auckland own the aircraft, as they do the Auckland Westpac rescue helicopter. They also provide the pilots. In recent times the public funding in particular has been missappropriated. The cash has not reached the end user to its full extent. ie, the helicopter operation. Consequently pilots are paid poorly and a lot leave for greener pastures. The effect is to filter the experience available, detract from having the best possible equipment available, or even maintain IFR pilots to the standard that is needed in the nature of terrain and weather in that country. I feel this has some contribution to this accident. Firstly the pilot was faced with VFR single pilot at night, the weather was not ideal, the IFR training if any, is substandard, the option to attempt the flight was , in the prevailing conditions, almost fatal. Did anyone provide this poor individal, the training and equipment required to undertake a flight of such nature? NO. Iam surprised that this has not happened earlier in this country. Check how many ATPL, multi IFR captains are left in that country, you can count them on your fingers. The vast majority are in places like Africa, Middle East, and Europe earning a living. Lets hear from a few of you kiwis at the coal face. Cheers

[Labarynth Seal]

Helmet Fire - I meant if she was wearing NVG's and not looking ahead, but say at the instruments or at the GPS pad on the other side of the cockpit.....:eek: :eek: .....and actually not looking where she was going (that was the peripheral ref.).

I found a link to the New Zealand CAA Accident Investiagtion Branch (http://www.caa.govt.nz/fulltext/Weekly_Accident_Reps/Accidents_registered_to_21_Jan_03.pdf) and thought it may be of any use, but it has limited info on it.

I found a photo of the helicopter (with it's skids on)
http://www.lifeflight.org.nz/webphotos/heli1/photos/4.jpg

LS

[Te_Kahu]

AuntyDolly and All Blacks are correct that the Westpac Rescue helo in Wellington, operated by the Life Flight Trust, is a non-IFR operation and does not operate NVG. The reason LFT has given in the past is cost.

There is no requirement from the powers that be in NZ for rescue helicopters to be IFR.

However, the Westpac Rescue helo in Auckland, operated by the Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust, is a fully certified IFR operation by its own choice.

ARHT also conducts extra training for its crews for night
ops, not just for the pilots, as the ethos of this organisation is that the pilots are part of a team effort not gods unto themselves.

In 33 years of operation the Auckland service has not sustained a major accident.

It may also be worth noting for those of you not in Godzone that there is very little Government funding of rescue helicopter operations in New Zealand.

Services are provided by 7 or 8 charitable trusts which operate AS 350s, or BKs. One has an S76 (Dick Smiths old machine) and one has B222.

The Ministry of Health pays for some hospital-to-hospital patient transfer work and the ACC, Accident Compensation Commission, pays for accident retrievals. There is no direct Government funding for operational costs.

These trusts survive on sponsorship*, donations, public fundraising initiatives and increasingly in recent years grants from the trusts that administar the proceeds of gaming machines. (pokie machines)

This last area is where I assume AuntyDolly was referring to misappropriation of funds. ARHT has been in the news over the relationship between it and the gaming trust that provided it funding grants and the hotels where those gaming machines were situated. This is being investigated by the authorities. ARHT has moved to address the concerns raised and I understand is cooperating fully with the authorities.

Aunty, remember natural justice and the concept of innocent until proven otherwise.

There has been no suggestion of misappropriation of public funding ie taxpayers dollars.

The gaming trust at the centre of this no longer exists. Ironically at the same time the criteria of who gets what funds from these gaming machines is being reviewed and screwed down by the Government because it's been pretty loose.

*Westpac Bank sponsors four machines in New Zealand. Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington & Christchurch. Each of those machines is operated by different trusts and the only connection between the operations is the sponsor's colours/logo/name on the machines.

[Labarynth Seal]

Te Kahu - Interesting you say that, because I would have expected, that, since it is well known fact in NZ, there is a very serious problem when it comes to Road Traffic Accidents (RTA's).

I believe this chopper was scraping a motorcyclist off the road at the time, and the accident happend on the retrieval to hospital. My point being, why is there no state funding for this problem (air ambulances)...... Just like the problem of menigitis in NZ, the goverment manage to find money for that, but seem to hold back on money for Air Ambulances, when most of the work goes on scraping people off the road..:confused: :confused:

Correct me if I am wrong here.

LS

[Te_Kahu]

The issue of the lack of direct Government funding is one all kiwi operators would like a clear and concise answer to.

It is my understanding the BK was retrieving the unfortunate motorcyclist, who had already been scraped off the road by the local ambulance crew, from Masterton Hospital (small provincial)for transfer to Wellington Hospital (major metropolitan).

This is approximately a 20 minute flight but a 1.5-2 hour road trip, part of which is very steep and windy.

[Labarynth Seal]

Are you familiar with the EMS ops down there ? What do reckon is the big problem with goverment funded EMS operations, because i would say that NZ is no poorer that Norway and we manage to do it. :eek:

LS

[AuntyDolly]

Thanks for your reply Te Kaha. I understand there is 2 or 3 IFR EMS helicopters in NZ. Across the ditch from where I am we have an application from an IFR check captain from New Zealand. From what Im told was formerly with the Auckland operation you mentioned...........has under 200 hours IFR...........see what I mean by filtering of experience

[sealion]

Any Landing you can walk away from is a good landing!

[SASless]

Being a current BK-117 pilot, experienced in EMS and flight operations in mountaninous terrain at night.....I can easily understand how this event occurred. It is no slight of the pilot's ability or experience that this happened to her. For all of you that are so quick to find fault....take a walk in her boots for a bit. Single pilot, night, mountains, dark....no horizion, stress of the EMS mission playing on your mind......no NVG's, no GPWS, no moving map display, no copilot, your hands full by any hero's standard......and a tree shows up by surprise.

I got news for you detractors.....except for the grace of the good lord go lots of us....including a dear friend who has all the goodies on his aircraft except for the NVG's....and he got a "Terrain...Pull Up!" warning the other night while enroute VFR over some mountains.

Put yourself in that cockpit.....after the collision in the dark with the ground.....and despite being injured personally....she was able to maintain control of the aircraft, herself, and the situation and ultimatley land the aircraft safely and get the patient to the hospital. That speaks for itself.....and good on her.

We hairy legged of the species usually regale our drinking buddies of similar accounts while gathered at our usual watering holes......and we all nod and smile. This Lady is welcome to share my favorite spot anytime......and I will buy!

Like it or not guys.....the Lady is a pilot.....and she was out there in the dark doing the job.....we should be proud of her as we would be of anyone else that was out there risking their neck to help an injured person. EMS is a dangerous business and we should support those that take the risks.....it isn't making circles around an airfield or plodding out to a platform or haulling the boss to the golf course.

[t'aint natural]

Flungdung:
The pilot's error was to accept the job, under the circumstances. A motorcyclist's life may have been at stake, and she chose to attempt to save him, despite the conditions.
As a motorcyclist, I'd rather meet her than you.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

I have read the posts, but excuse me if I have missed something.

This helicopter was below LSALT (actually below terrain, in a gully) with no NVG's. This means she was using a night sun right? If not, she was using bright moonlight, or the force?

Not having used night suns before, what are the normal procedures regarding enroute?

Thanks.

[t'aint natural]

...but none the less true

[Irlandés]

Flungdung,
could you explain why it's impossible for a second pilot to climb on board and take over on the dual controls? I've climbed in and out of the BK on a number of occasions (albeit parked and friendly) and can see no reason why it wouldn't be possible. I mean if she could hold it steady enough for the firemen to cut the skids off, then what's stopping someone climbing in?

Thanks!

Irlandés

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Irlandés,

And where would this BK117 type rated helicopter pilot spring from? Would one of the firemen be suddenly annointed? All hail! Or would they have waited the 2 odd hours until someone capable of what you describe drove to the scene? No hang on a minute - one of the firemen just happened to have a large top hat to reach into. Like p****ing in the corner of a round room.

[Irlandés]

Giovanni,
your sarcasm is both misplaced and misguided. I was not referring to the logistical problems of finding a pilot, simply asking why it would be impossible for him/her to climb in and take over if he/she were available to do so.

I was querying Flungdung's comment that "Anyone who has climbed into the pilot seat of a BK117 with rotors running on the ground during the day will know that to do the same thing from a hover at night and take over control from an injured pilot is impossible." All I was asking was for him to further elaborate on this point.

You give truth to the old adage 'there's no such thing as a stupid question, there are only stupid answers.' :rolleyes:

Ciao,
Irlandés

[John Eacott]

Irlandes,

The left seat of a BK117, with dual controls fitted, is exceptionally difficult to get into and out of. The seat itself is close to the left door frame, and the collective when in the full down position is so close to the front doorframe and the cyclic that great care is needed to thread an average size 10 into the footwell. With the collective up in the hover, it would be a job for a professional contortionist to get in without disturbing the controls. Added to that issue is the twitchieness (like that word?) of the BK at the best of times in the hover; I imagine that with a damaged airframe, injured hand, and a bit of adrenaline whizzing around the system, a replacement pilot would have been a bit down on the list of priorities.

FWIW, I believe that regardless of the circumstances that caused the accident, the pilot seems to have done a remarkable job in recovering, then getting the damaged aircraft back on the ground. Those that live in glass houses, shouldn't :rolleyes:

[Steve76]

OK... so climbing in and out of the A/C in the hover is a nogo.

I think that "t'aint natural" made a relevant point and should not necessarily be scorned for being a PPL. That's a little immature.

It is interesting to note that as a PPL he still had the commonsence to suggest that a LSALT should apply to this route. Now assuming it is say...1000ft above the highest obstacle enroute then that means either a loss of situational awareness (something we have all done....) resulting in a decent in excess of 1000ft; OR; it was a case of scud running at night. Tricky during the day while single pilot VFR, and just crazy at night.

Certainly this is all speculation but I am getting frustrated by the numerous comments to hold back in discussing these accidents. We talk, we surmise, we guess, we correct each other ... its what this place is all about. If we cannot sit down for a good chin wag in the anonimity (spelling?) of the internet, then I think all this typing is a waste of time.

What about some follow-up on the outcome of the relevant authorities investigations.

[Irlandés]

John Eacott,
very reasonable reply. Just what I was looking for. Thanks.

Changing topics...
not too impressed by this recurring tendency of certain ppruners to turn their noses down at those of us who have less experience. If one thing a year of reading this forum has taught me, it's that having a million hours of experience on everything from the Jolly Green Giant to the Millenium Falcon doesn't automatically preclude one from posting absolute, mind-blowing claptrap. And vice-versa.

We should judge people's comments on just that, their comments and not some five second research into their personal profile.

Irlandés

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Irlandés,


As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.


Ma dai! Read the name of the site!

[Old Man Rotor]

Unlike other light twins and most of the mediums.........the BK is limited to entry and exit via the crew doors only.............jumping to and fro the back seats is precluded due to the high crew seat backs, and the general cosyness of the BK.

And of course one has to guess if there were duals fitted to a SP EMS Airframe........[I personally would have removed them so a passenger or extra crew could use the seat without any possibility of control interference]

Also where would that qualified current extra pilot come from???.....it seems that he/she was'nt required anyway.

Also to the seemless endless critics.......under some circumstances it is 100% legal to be below the LSALT over mountains on a dark night.......???......so careful chaps before you paint yourselves into that little boys corner.

[S76Heavy]

Legal is not always desireable. I think that is where this discussion should go.

Why not have IFR capable aircraft and pilots in HEMS operations? After all, so far nobody got killed colliding with the sky.. Why deny the safe option to these crews?

And I know that cost is a factor, but should that be the overriding argument here? I think not.

[Irlandés]

Sorry Giovanni,
I don't know whether it's because it's monday morning or because I was born slow but your last post is a little too cryptic for me.

Are you by posting trying to elicit certain reactions in a less than honest way? Or are you suggesting that someone else in this thread is trying to do that?

Are you suggesting that those of us working on our CPLs should be banned from posting on this site?

Please elaborate.

Irlandés

[Labarynth Seal]

Sasless - The last time I heard a story about "terrain, terrain" was a jetfighter mate of mine doing a rendition of the above mentioned and said that an ecjection was the only way forward.....Yes an ejection :eek: :eek: ....Somehow it seemed relevant :p

t'aint natural - don't let those atpl bullies get one over on you. They were only rattled by the fact that you knew a little more than you....Glad to see it. Hey you might just be a "PPL/H" but those out there with ATPL/H may live in fear of the only question that will pain them.....cos they can't take it....... you know who you are :eek:

Steve - Filing an IFR flight plan en- route.....Cool, but would you have thought of that with a broken hand.....:confused:...Probably.....:eek: :eek:
It is always great after 5 pages of pprune gossip, to be able to think of the purrrrrrfekt eek: answer.......Sorry mate :confused:

The rest of you who thought you were James Bond..:mad: :mad:

LS

[Heliport]

Irlandes
For heaven's sake don't be so aggressive. All Giovanni meant was anyone so minded can make themselves out to be something they're not in their profile.

As for "not too impressed by this recurring tendency of certain ppruners to turn their noses down at those of us who have less experience." I've not noticed any such "recurring tendency". On the contrary, professional pilots on this forum show infinite patience answering questions from PPLs and people like yourself working towards their CPL.
Apart from the very rare silly comment, the only time I've noticed any impatience or irritation is when a PPL comments upon an issue which relates to professional pilots and starts saying what he thinks instead of reading, learning and asking questions if necessary. This isn't the first time you've mentioned a professional/private pilot divide but, to the best of my recollection, you are the only person who claims there is.
And you've read very experienced professionals on this forum "posting absolute, mind-blowing claptrap." Sounds fun. Wish I'd seen that! :D
___________________________

taint natural may be a PPL, but he's also an experienced pilot and an instructor.

[Irlandés]

Labarynth Seal,
don't get me wrong, I wasn't for one second suggesting that PPL's be discouraged from posting. God forbid! That would mean I wouldn't be able to post for at least two weeks (CPL flight test coming up!). ;)

Irlandés

[DBChopper]

... far be it from me to break up the bitch fight, but if I could just bring us back to the theme of the thread...

Does anybody on here know the pilot involved and is there an update on her condition? Has anyone spoken to her and are they able to shed any further light on the circumstances?

I'm not being funny, folks, but as a new boy (R22, low hours...) I kind of hoped I could read considered opinions and insight into rotary flight around the world. Did I get the wrong site?

Just wondered (dives out of the ring before the bell goes again)

:rolleyes:

[SASless]

DB....if you want some really enlightening discourse upon helicoptering....look up a site called Just Helicopters....you will soon be back here breathing a sigh of relief! At the best of times...JH reeks of a Gulf of Mexico crewroom circa....1972 or so....in the days of poor pay, poor working conditions, poor management, poor digs, and really poor attitudes......at nowadays the pay is better. The lads here might get a bit snippy at times but at least they do it with small bit of decorum. The mods here at least have a sense of humour....unlike JetBlast's reigning king!

[John Eacott]

Interesting video of the TV3 News report here (http://www.helisite.be/) , the pilot seems to have done a remarkable job regardless of the circumstances.

[Steve76]

http://www.taic.org.nz/aviation/03-001.pdf

http://www.taic.org.nz/aviation/abstracts-a-00.html#03-001

Well team, this is an INTERESTING read. I suggest you take the time to peruse all the PDF as it is very informative. The description of the flight starts on page 9 of the PDF.

The long and the short of it all is:

Pilot overflew waypoint in below VFR conditions in an area of mountainous terrain and initiated climb in IFR conditions to known safe altitude.
While climbing contacted terrain and damaged herself and aircraft. Managed to recover unusual attitude and divert to an aerodrome nearby.
Hovered for 1.5hrs with badly injured hand.

Of interest was the lack of formal rules for the night route that was being used.
Locally here in Canada our SOP's call for 1000ft above highest obstacle within 3nm and 500ft from cloud.
In this instance the flight was planned at 2500 and the investigators hint that 5000 may've been a better altitude.

There is plenty to learn in this one. Enjoy the read.

Steve76

[SASless]

My hat is tipped to that Lady! To hit something hard at night and in cloud and rise to the occasion speaks well of her. Before you criticize her....walk a mile in her shoes first. She was out there doing the work in some very challenging conditions. Too many of us could have found ourselves in the same predicament. (If you will be honest with yourself.....anyway!)

As I said before when this was being discussed....she is welcome at my end of the bar anytime....and I will buy! I will gladly fly with her anytime.

No matter what you think.....the final analysis revolves around what you do when it all goes wobbly....and that bit of excitement is more than I ever wish to experience.

:ok:

[Thomas coupling]

This person did a sterling job in recovering from her predicament, and a pat on the back is most certainly deserved.

Lessons learned:

1. Sometimes using one's superior talents to get out of a sticky situation, could just be those very same talents that put one into it in the first place :\

2. If there has to be a criticism in this, can I suggest that perhaps pilots need to be s**t hot on the ground (while planning the task) too:ouch:

This has the making of a film, methinks........

[Droopy]

A good one for a CRM discussion, being used for that already on our unit.

[Helinut]

I agree with all the previous posts - a report that every helicopter pilot who flies at night should read. It would be easy for any of us to get in a similar situation. It is in similar "territory" to the recently-reported Strathclyde Police EC135 crash.

It may be possible to do more night helicopter flights IFR (I mean proper IFR here, not the bastardised "IFR"/visual contact/low-level flying that UK Rules of the Air allow/require as a substitute for night VFR which is prohibited here). However, some of this flying really needs to be low level and below the MSA if it is to be of any use (e.g. police flying).

If you are low level at night and relying on visual contact (for nav and to maintain terrain separation), the risk of inadvertent IMC is always there. Even an IR rated pilot with a full IFR aircraft can be in poor shape if he goes "inadvertent" in these circumstances. It is a whole different ball-game from a flight conducted "proper" IFR and above the MSA.

[NickLappos]

What a story! I am reminded of the audio tape I heard once with a US Army Cobra crew who went into cloud and lost ground reference. A whole lot of "You got it!" shouts and a lost set of skids were all documented in hilarious (black humor-wise) detail!

The need for all of us to call for EGPWS (Enhanced ground Proximity Warning Device) has never been clearer.
here is the Honeywell web site that describes it:

http://www.egpws.com/

I am told that a very effective BAE TERPROM is also available for military users.

http://www.terprom.com/

For all the talk about how to autorotate, and how many engines a given helo needs, the fact is that the dirt is what gets us, to the tune of about 40% of all helo accidents.

[rotorspeed]

No doubt that the flying after hitting the trees was pretty outstanding and indeed heroic. But to have avoided the drama in the first place, would it not have been more sensible to have turned onto a reciprocal track, which had already been safely covered at 2500ft, before starting the climb into IMC? Once MSA was achieved, track to destination could have been safely resumed. Clearly endurance was no problem. Only luck prevented this being a fatal wipe out. The best approach was presumably IFR all the way, but I guess the lack of an autopilot meant the acft was not S/P IFR approved.

[Nigel Osborn]

As Rotorspeed said, she did a fantastic job after hitting the trees but surely she shouldn't have hit the trees in the first place. She has over 6000 hours, so is very experienced. We all know single pilot night vfr flight over/around/through mountains under,
/near/through cloud is bloody difficult, not to mention very high in the pukka factor.
With these sort of EMS or SAR flights, the hardest decision is usually not being able to say "NO" when you should. Hence the importance of flight planning.:rolleyes:

[Heliport]

Merged with original thread.

Heliport

[Vfrpilotpb]

Before anyone takes a pop at me, I have not had time to read all the posts on this thread, but Whatever happened this heli had a collision with some trees which caused considerable damage to both Heli and crew.

The outcome speaks volumes for the tenacity of this lady pilot, we can all read some very harsh comment from people who profess to know what they are saying, and say they are near to and know all the facts, the fact is for some of you quick to blame jockeys, is this young lady made contact with something that could have been fatal, she kept her nerve and allowed her brain and training allied with experience to get to the best outcome possible, she may be at fault, but how many of you out there are willing to cast the first stone, with the exception of Granny that is, we already know which way he is going! sad person:mad: