Katherine gorge where next...?

[Capt Vegemite]

Quietly declared a no fly zone and airspace handed over to local tribe.
This could get interesting...

[CoodaShooda]

Not only the gorge Cap'n but the entire Nitmiluk Park.
They would appear to have exceeded their powers but it speaks volumes about the way the Government wants to do business.

Introduce a law that is invalid, without consultation, without notice and to provide a direct benefit to a specific group at the expense of the business community.

What was the rationale again? Oh yes, its a tourism issue. Having helicopters flying up and down the gorge is unsafe and an accident will harm tourism. So by banning the helicopters it removes the safety problem...then again, paying a fee to the Park Board will allow the helicopters to operate but apparently will also solve the safety problem.

By this reasoning, we could dispense with CASA and simply have all aircraft operators pay a user fee to the Nitmiluk Board of Management. Then, courtesy of the Board and the NT Government , aviation in Australia will be completely safe.
:mad:

Why do words like moronic and inept spring to mind?:rolleyes:

[High Altitude]

Yes one has to wonder. As you see I am not afraid to speak my piece. I am just amazed at how it was done.

Kakadu has a fly neighbourly which works.

They also wanted to impose restrictions on air travel I very firmly opposed it and not sure where it got to.

Think about it for a minute you all would have travelled, how often has a lightie annoyed you while on tour somewhere, yep not very often.

Isn't there enough restricted airspace in the Territory??? That we have NO say about already?

[Capt Vegemite]

Hmmmm..and by extension if aviation was banned in all NT airspace and only allowed to proceed after paying the land councils a fee we could expect a perfect safety record !
Call Clare Martin if shes back from her world trip.

[No Further Requirements]

HA - nice photo in the NT News by the way! About the restircted airspace, you guys lobbying through RAPAC to the RAAF have made the recent changes to the Tindal Airspace happen. These allowed aircraft 9500ft and below to transit below the airspace instead of 4500ft like it used to be. This is an improvement and I hope we will see more. Believe me, it frustrates the controllers at this end too!

BTW, isn't the Gorge in the Tindal CTR and therefore RAAF controlled? (I know they don't use it often, but anyway....) Can the NT government really assume juristiction over this airspace which is commonwealth 'owned'? Cheers,

NFR.

[Sheep Guts]

Well the change to 9500feet as NFR has said sounds good atleast, no longer get bounced around like yar in a Dune Buggy.

Ah how remember those charters to Kalkarung, and vomit down the back of neck nearly :eek: :rolleyes:

As for the Gorge, silly irriates,I suppose HA Maud Creek wont be worth that much anymore, HeliMuster will lose a little.

Regards
Sheep
:D

[CoodaShooda]

NFR
The assumption is the NTG (appropriate acronym) does not have jurisdiction but I guess the lawyers will get new yachts out of arguing the toss.

Would like to hear the Commonwealth's position on this.

Bear in mind the Commonwealth has a track record in this regard when they allowed (the white advisers to) the custodians of Uluru to ban the Red Arrows fly past of Ayers Rock a few years back.

Given the ownership of land across the NT, the Stuart, Barkly and Victoria Highways may have to become low level IFR (I Follow Roads) routes for GA. At least the road reserves remain public property.:rolleyes:

[compressor stall]

Restricted airspace and no flying over traditional lands!

[Tinstaafl]

Has it been designated a Prohibited or Restricted area?

If Restricted, is the land council the controlling authority? And by what authority do they have that?

[CoodaShooda]

This has got to be a 21st century remake of Yes Minister...please?

Government minister - This has been under negotiation for three years. Here's a letter from the Park Board asking for the ban back in 2000.

Response from opposition (in Gov't in 2000) - We got the letter back then and told them "No - we will not negotiate on air rights".

Staffer from minister's office rings ASA to ask about implementation of the controls on 6 January, 6 days after its come into force. Its the first ASA or CASA have heard of it.

John Anderson now promises to review the matter.

Local minister on TV says "Oh well, if we don't have the power we'll just withdraw the by-law." Minister also quoted as saying the controls were the same as those applying in Kakadu (wrong) and that he was not aware that any request to alter airspace had to be approved by ASA.

Still can't get the words inept and moronic out of my mind. :rolleyes:

[ulm]

State and Territory legislation is ALWAYS subordinate to Federal.

The CAA and associated Regs define Restricted and prohibited airspace, the NT Government therefore cannot.

[Capt Vegemite]

Now we got that one out in the open would you southerners be prepared to help us get road access to Arnhem land that is restricted by land councils and is a PUBLICLY FUNDED AND MAINTAINED HIGHWAY?

[Sheep Guts]

Whoop whoop pull up pull up Veg, dont tell them everting mon.

Ah Veg thats our bread and butter that one bud.

No road, no drive, fly only. Thats what keeps some pilots in jobs in the Top End remmembe,r because if they could drive they would.:D :D

Regards
Sheep

[ulm]

Or the short-cut from Curtin Springs to Kulgera.

Sorry mate, some things just aint possible :)

Anyway, if you opened the road to Gove all the bl@@dy tourists would stuff it up.

Better to fly :)

[OpsNormal]

ulm, some of the finest drinking to be had in between those two fine establishments! One bundy per man per mile..... Or is it per sandhill. Bu99ered if I can remember to tell you the truth. Well we might just make onto Tempe Downs before getting too wobbly! ;) :D

Then again, there's the scenic route via Mulga Park, but be warned.... pack heaps more grog and there aint no stopping! :D

Rgds,
OpsN.

[ulm]

Spent many a dusky evening in Amata, Fregon, Mimili and Ernabella, and that no drinkin bit, hah, thats only for you whitefella :D

[Capt Vegemite]

dat wun ya cuddins hey ulm? (http://waru.org/ap/rollingthunder/index.html) :D

eeheehee..hooo hoo.. damn.. stuck out there on a dark night wit no torch....:eek:

[Capt Vegemite]

hee hee..Wicked Wicking... (http://community.webshots.com/image5/8/46/22/60984622lFZOoi_ph.jpg) :D

[Rich-Fine-Green]

What's the latest?

Can someone add a backgrounder to this as well.

Us Southerners didnt get the full story.

I don't see how this can be lawful without ASA & CASA approval.

Then again, Anderson's word is not worth much - he also pledged that airport fees would be capped to CPI.

[CoodaShooda]

R-F-G
Simple little tale.
The management board of the Nitmiluk National Park, which includes Katherine Gorge, has for several years had a problem with tourist helicopter flights "disturbing the peace" (and not getting a slice of the action?).
They tried to get control under the old Government, which appreciated the implications of air space control and native title and Commonwealth responsibility and told them not to be silly.
They've tried it on again with the new Government, which has a surplus of hearts on sleeves and a dearth of half decent advisers.
The Government snuck in a park by-law requiring permits for air ops below 3000 m over the park, without telling anyone.
The by law took effect on 1 January but didn't go public until this week. See previous posts for discussion on the 'pay for safety' principle that the Government sought to offer as its first excuse.
The story has been dribbling out on a daily basis and is becoming increasingly embarrassing for the Minister concerned. Each time he tries to justify the action he makes a bigger fool of himself.
The by law exists, there is apparently no established means for policing it (the first AsA heard of it was on 6 January when they were asked for ideas on how to police it) and, if someone was taken to court for a breach it will probably be found that there is no legal basis for its existence.
I think you'll find that the by law will remain on the books only until the Commonwealth formally advises the NT that 'you can't do that' but its unlikely to see any prosecutions.

If the Commonwealth does condone the action, it will become open season for Aboriginal Land bodies to seek control of their air space and, I presume, as we are not racially discriminative, all freehold owners can do likewise for their 800 sq m blocks.

(They have focussed on the choppers but I have it on good authority that the occasional F/A 18 from Tindal has also done the low level scenic route up the gorge. No suggetsion of asking the RAAF to obtain permits that I know of.:D )

[Sheep Guts]

Well if Coodas data is correct thats 10,000ft or the limit of the Military CTR at tindal.

Which means due to Commonwealth Law superseding Territory Law, we have a time share agreement on our hands here:

1. When Tindal is active its Federal Airspace.

2. When its deactive its MBZ , and reverts to (Jawyn People Airspace)

So solution do your scenics when its active :D

To police when its not active will be hard, unless they get hold of the Tindal Radar Tapes which they wont cause it Military Restricted Info only made available for Accidents and Incidents.


regrds
Sheep

p.s. Bugga em keep flying over it . Its the only thing worth flying over in Nitmiluk. God help us if they want to do the same at Kakadu:rolleyes: :mad:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Thanks Cooda:

Are there are perscribed penalties attached to the by-law?.

Have any operators or private pilots taken notice of this moronic situation or is it still Op's normal?.

[CoodaShooda]

Sheepy/R-F-G
Unfortunately my data is from that unimpeachable source, the NT News (although they have a surprisingly good record when it comes to local politics).
I've been trying to download the park plan of management (last amended October 2002) but without success.
If there is a by law, it will prescribe penalties for breaches, usually in 'units' which are easier to change than prescribed $ amounts or custodial sentences. As to whether the operators are complying, I have no idea; but would suggest the weather's only been good for ducks since the story broke.

[No Further Requirements]

Sheepy, as a matter of fact, Air Services Australia uses the Tindal radar feed as well as the military so the tapes would be available from Brisbane Centre. Darwin ATC also uses the Tindal feed for extra coverage. Not trying to encourage the NT government to pursue this option, just letting y'all know! Cheers,

NFR.

[CoodaShooda]

Finally got a download of the plan of management from the Government Web Site.

No mention of the new controls. Reference is made as follows in the 'actions' appended to by law 6.4.9

"Control of air space over the Park, particularly in relation to flying heights and routes of low flying aircraft will continue to be subject to agreements and pilots’ guidelines established through the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. If necessary the ability to enforce flying routes and heights over the Park under Territory Parks and
Wildlife Conservation By-laws or Section 25(2)(zc) of the Nitmiluk Act, will be investigated and acted upon. "

The intent seems clear but they don't appear to have followed their own directions regarding agreements with CASA and investigation of their powers.

[High Altitude]

:) :) :)

I believe a victorious day for us all in the air.....

But what scares me is that it has been attempted it may have failed this time but what will the future hold???

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[RENURPP]

They really are an ignorant bunch of no hopers aren't they. (NT Government).

The "acting chief minister" (which one, even the full time one is only acting, or pretending), wriggled and squirmed, whilst unable to answer the questions put to him on TV tonight.

The latest is they will consult with tourist association, aviation and AsA/CASA re the so called noise problems.

[CoodaShooda]

Which is what they should have done in the first place.

Note the minister responsible for the debacle was nowhere to be seen.

This from a government that ran on a platform of openness and introduced FOI :rolleyes:

They'll unfortunately try again, citing complaints from tourists. Its not over yet...just hope the Commonwealth stays firm on airspace control.