Plot to down US army charter flight.

[GordonBurford]

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20030112%2F234278350.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20030112PSPA101

[PaperTiger]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rm/030113/iraq_usa_threat_1.html

[GordonBurford]

Doesn't surprise me. It sounded a bit far-fetched to me, to!

Of course we now have 2 mutually exclusive stories. So the questions becomes "Which do we believe?"

[Moneyshot]

I would find it more surprising if a trooping flight had not been targetted. Maybe the specific story is bull but the general principle holds water. As one who often flies soldiers around, it is of concern to me.

[arcniz]

The level of disinformation, unofficial and otherwise, may well ramp up considerably from now until the current 'package' of political positions plays out to some conclusion.

Suggested position: Heads-up & hunker down.

[GordonBurford]

Question.

What's wrong with destroying commandeered or chartered vehicles transporting troops or war materials that are being transported to your viscinity with the express intent of attacking your country?

In my view the answer is simply that you'll be killing, which is always wrong. Especially with an innocent flight-crew on board. The thing is, i'm not sure whether this comes under a soveriegn states right to defend herself.

I don't support it, but you COULD construct an argument that these guys are on their way to attack a specific country, possibly making them a legit target?

Quite honestly, are we to believe that if a commercial flight full of Iraqi soldiers was attempting to fly to the US, that it'd be allowed to land and JFK airport and disembark it's passengers?

To be honest, though, I think this is so much media hyperbole. Never forget, the news is there to keep us watching the commercials. Selling the public groceries and consumer durables between bulletins is what pays the newsman's wages. Keeping us informed is just an excuse to make the programs in the first place.

[whatshouldiuse]

and not many people know this, U.S troops from Georgia and South Carolina were shipping out on a Continental Jet next week...either a 767 or a 777 to the Middle East.

Do normal Continental Pilots fly these planes and if so on what terms? If Continental Pilots don't do the flying, who does??

Andy

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Well I'm sure that after that last post, the Captain of said Boeing will be overjoyed that the nature of his flight is in the public domain....:rolleyes:

[GordonBurford]

Yes, there is certainly a powerful argument for people being carefull what they post here. We really DON'T need the bad guys having any kinds of heads up as to exactly which flights are likely to be assisting with troop deployments.

Think before you post people, you never know who might be watching..... I'm sure no one here wants to endanger lives.

[PaperTiger]

While your concerns are no doubt well-intentioned GB, I imagine anyone planning such an attack would have done their homework. Since these flights are not publicized and are subject to intense security, 'inside' information and access would be an absolute necessity. Vague posts a couple of days in advance will not tell them anything they don't already know.

Still, no need to discuss them openly I agree.

[stargazer02]

Hi there
i realise that not many people know about this probably except the whole country of Ireland the reason being for the last week the Irish national newspapers have been highlighting the fact that Shannon airport has been in constant use by both the US military aircraft and commercial chartered aircraft and there are over 10flights per day landing in EINN for the purpose of refueling etc.
There is a huge protest in progress on a daily basis at the airport and last night the minister for Foreign Affairs admitted that over 78,000 troops have passed through the airport.
So i don't think it's really that much of a secret.
Also presumably most of the US air bases in the UK and Europe are by now quite active with flights both military and commercial with troops on board flying in/out.

The question from an Irish point of view is "do all these transport flights infringe on the country's neutrality"

Also in times of war the US gov is able to charter commercial aircraft from airlines for the purpose of personnel transportation just like the Brits did during the Falklands war.

So yes it is a possibility but no doubt the US gov and security services have already considered this and acted accordingly.

[GordonBurford]

Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you?

Most terrorists, as well as almost all soldiers, are opportunists.
It's innate to the concept of guerilla warfare that you can't strike where the line is strongest, so you wait for the enemy to drop their guard. This typically means they plan a means of attack without a specific target, and wait for their target to present a window of opportunity.

The attacks on New York on September the 11 2001 were the most lethal terrorist attacks ever. It seems quite likely that, in view of their success, those responcible or with similar motives will try to make use of such tactics in the future and this board could potentially be a major source of information to them.

I agree that there it's quite likely that that post alone presents little threat, but there is no point in putting ANY potentially damaging information that doesn't need to be public knowledge into the public domain. The old addage of "loose lips sink ships" rings very true right now.

Consider this: If someone had came to you on September 10th 2001 and told you what was going to happen the next day, would you have believed them? Or would you have considered it to "far fetched" to actually happen?

It's easy to be wise AFTER the event, but right now this isn't a good option.

[stargazer02]

The crews on these aircraft will generally have volunteered to fly these flights.
Back during the Gulf war my former collegues in Delta had to organise the volunteers by seniority because so many pilots and cabin crew had opted to fly the troops out.
Most people in the US will have done military service or training at some stage and it is out of our loyalty to our country that we fly these trips.
Back then there was great publicity given in the media to these flights due to the fact that so many people were doing this on their time off and not being paid for it.
Basically just "doing their bit".
And since these flights are being highlighted so much in the Irish media and incidently also appeared on CNN i don't see what the fuss is about GB.
Really if you have had ANY experience in these type of operations you will know that the flights of any importance are never logged or have any paper trail.
Also GB to answer your pityfull reasoning about Iraqi troops boarding a plane to JFK.....
Well the US troops are not being flown to Baghdad they are going to military bases not public airports.....with the exception of Shannon seemingly
So it is ludicrous to suggest what you did.....don't you think.....
If they had a base in the US well then who would know what was on board but since the DON'T that idea is laughable.....:cool: :D :cool:

To answer your comment about previous knowledge of Sept 11th
haven't you been or don't you look at the the articles in the US media???
It is now been reported that most US security services had info on the attacks but it seemingly got lost somewhere along the way

GB
i just noticed that you are preaching to us all to say nothing
but it was YOU who started this thread
So if you don't want people to post you should NEVER have started the thread.....right????

[steamchicken]

The difference between that and the hypothetical Iraqis at JFK is that the Irish government would have to give permission for the troops to over-fly their territory. Unless Ireland has an agreement about this with the US, they have to ask the Irish foreign ministry for permission for each flight. Similarly, there is no controversy about their destination because the countries they are going to have agreed for them to be based there. If they were going to jump straight into Iraq the issue might be a little more controversial! I believe that shooting them down would legally be like sinking a merchant ship without warning, i.e. legally a no-no. But not that anyone cares about that since 1916. If they were actual military aircraft they would of course be fair game whatever. (although, are they like ships in neutral waters? Don't know enough international law.)

[stargazer02]

Just to add to your comments the reason there is a demo at the airport is that the transports albeit civilian are carrying troops and troops do not travel to an operational area un armed.
There are also military cargo transports in/out and who knows what's on board.
This is against Irish neutrality and according to the office of Foreign Affairs no permission has been sought from the Gov regarding the usage of Shannon.
So far this year only 1 request for 1 aircraft has been made to the Irish Gov but there are over 10flights per day at the moment.
The aircarft are not being searched so they may be carrying more than light arms for the troops.
Also the cargo transports will be carrying more than just light arms and that's why there is such a problem.
The gov has denied on television that the flights are not carrying any weapons at all which is laughable.
Personally i don't think they should fly to Shannon when the aircraft have the capability to fly to the US bases in Germany or the UK and therefore arriving/depting in a more secure enviroment.