IR before CPL

[Token Bird]

I gather that if a person does the multi-engine IR before the CPL, they then only have to take the 15 hour CPL, not the 25. Has anyone actually done this? Is it lunacy?

Doing the CPL first however, means one only has to do a 50 hour IR, rather than 55. Does anyone know which 5 hours are knocked off. Are they single, multi or simulator? The answer to this question will determine which way round works out cheaper, if any.

[HomerSimpson]

TokenBird,

I had a PPL, Night/IMC and Multi and decided to do the Multi IR based on my UK PPL. This was reduced to 43 hours from the original 55 hours. I got an exemption of the first part of the course (the CFI/Head of Training has descresion on which bits you miss). I did 22.5 hours on a PA-28 and the other 17.5 hours on a BE-76.

Then once I had finished that, I had to get it issued to be able to claim the 10 hours reduction on the CPL.

The CPL reduction is just the first 10 hours at the descression of the CFI/Head of Training again, usually just the IMC part of the CPL (as you have the IR). 10 hours on a PA-38, plus 5 on a multi or complex single. Then complete a test on the complex aircraft, in my case a PA-27 Aztec.

I hope this helps.

Homer

[Cos]

Homer,

Is it possible to complete an IR before sitting the ATPL writtens? I would like to get an IR on singles or twins (if money permits), to aid my GA flying. If time and funds then allowed, I would piece together the rest of the CPL at a later stage.

Is this feasible with a PPL as a starting point?

Cheers. :confused:

[Luke SkyToddler]

When I was at Stapleford Flying Club, a couple of students there were doing their IR prior to their CPL and they'd worked out it would save them 2 or 3 grand by doing so. I think the CFI had done the figures and was quite impressed with their idea, he was wondering whether to make it standard procedure for the full time professional students, but I'm not sure what the outcome was.

Their phone no. is 01708 688 380 if anyone wants to ask.

[bumpfich]

Token Bird - I too have been looking at this option.
From Staplefords WebsiteStapleford Flying Club's Options to Consider (http://www.flysfc.com/club/ir2.htm) it appears to be the most economical route.
I came to the total of £14,942.50 :) for the ME Rating, ME IR(A) and CPL (excl. CAA Exam Fees, 3 Ldgs, 2 Appr and the Night Rating) all done at Stapleford and assuming minimum hours are required to pass.
I assume the ME IR(A) can be taken before the ATPL writtens as its a rating which can be added to a PPL: the pre-entry requirements are a PPL(A), Night qualification, 50hrs PIC cross country. For the ME IR(A) you must have a ME Piston (Land) Class rating which has pre-issue requirement of 70 hrs PIC.

[MALCOLM_DEAN]

The question of CPL followed by IR or IR followed by CPL is a question that many students ask. You need to bear the following points in mind when you consider which way is best for you.

1. The best way for your colleague is not always the best route for you.

2 The addition of an MEP/IR to your PPL is a way forward, HOWEVER remember you still need to pass written examinations for the issue of the PPL/IR. There are currently no training providers for the theoretical knowledge examinations for the PPL/IR.

3. In order to obtain a multi IR you must either hold or obtain an MEP class rating.

4. The taking of the IR prior to the CPL can help in that the time flown can be used towards the 150 hours required prior to starting the CPL module. You are however putting a great deal of pressure on yourself as you are then in fact undergoping the most difficult aspect of your flight training without the benefit of using your CPL training as a brush up.

5. The reduction of training for the IR from 55 hours down to 43 is ONLY applicable to the holders of an IMC rating who are ALSO using UK CAA written examinations for licence issue. If you have sat or intend to sit JAA written exams, the IMC 12 hour reduction is not available.

6. If you do actually undertake the IR first, then you will indeed have a reduction of 10 hours in the CPL module, you will still however have to carry out the 5 hours complex training.

We currently recommend for most students that the sensible way forward is to undertake a combined CPL/MEP course and then seek a 5 hour reduction in the MEP IR. The rationale is that there is a cost saving in that the 5 hours complex for the CPL is actually combined with the 8 hours MEP and accordingly prevents unnecessary flying and finally when you do actually start the IR you have just honed your general flying skills and are already up to speed and current on the multi when you start your IR

Just out of interest, our combined MEP/CPL followed by a JAA IR of 50 hours will currently cost you about £14,500 all inclusive

It is a case of horses for courses but if anyone has any queries then either email me or telephone.

Malcolm Dean
Head of Training
Multiflight

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: MALCOLM_DEAN ]

[Token Bird]

Thanks Malcolm,

I'd worked out that the cost difference is pretty minimal anyway, and it seems imminently more sensible to do the CPL/ME first, so that's probably what I'll go for.

TB

[Snigs]

Malcolm, I hesitate to correct such an experienced service provider in this field, but,

5. The reduction of training for the IR from 55 hours down to 43 is ONLY applicable to the holders of an IMC rating who are ALSO using UK CAA written examinations for licence issue. If you have sat or intend to sit JAA written exams, the IMC 12 hour reduction is not available.

This is not entirely true (and I have a telephone reference from the CAA to prove it).

If you have taken (and passed) the JAA ATPL written exams, and if you have passed the JAR CPL skills test, but have not yet applied for the JAR CPL (i.e. the CPL is not issued), and providing that you have a UK CAA PPL with an IMC rating, then you still qualify for the 12 hour reduction off the approved IR (simulator time only), and this is the case until 13th June 2002.

I was pleasantly surprised when I found out, it saved me a lot of money!!

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Snigs ]

[MALCOLM_DEAN]

Snigs,

Many thanks for your info, it just goes to show that you never stop learning in this game.

I would appreciate an email of the exact content of your advice as this could affect some of our students.


Cheers

Malcolm Dean

[Snigs]

Malcolm,

When I rang the CAA I was quoted a paragraph from the JAR FCL pertaining to IR training (unfortunately I failed to note the paragraph number) but the advice is as above. Unfortunately, and this is the part that is really crazy, if you have got the JAR CPL issued and in your hand then you only benefit from a 5 hour reduction on the 55 hour approved IR course!

I believe that once you're "in the JAR system" then they refuse to recognise the UK IMC rating, however if you not yet in the JAR system then the loop hole is that you can apply for the CPL/IR at the same time, the IR gets attached to your PPL (UK) for a nanosecond and then your PPL (UK) gets upgraded to a CPL (JAR), and you come out of it with a JAR CPL/IR.

Crazy I know, but the transition between UK and JAR regs is a mess. The timescale for this is 12 hour dispensation is quite reasonable, you must ensure that the IR training is completed by 13 June 2002.

I hope that's of some help!

[HomerSimpson]

Snigs,

This is the route that I took. I qualified for the 12 hour rdecution for the IR as I had completed the CAA ATPL exams and held a valid IMC rating. However after completing the IR, I wanted to proceed swifty on to the CPL. The CAA said that I MUST have the IR issued on my UK PPL before I could qualify for the 10 hour reduction However, I had already completed 14 hours of the CPL and was just about to do the last hour and the test. Therefore I had to send them £72 for licence issue (adding a rating) which took a month - then do the CPL skills test. The logbook and licence went back to Gatwick 2 days after it arrived for the UK PPL to be upgraded to a JAR CPL. I still had to pay £172 (or something like that) for the licence issue! If they would have let me send it them all at once I would have been able to save £72!
But now I now why people call it Cash Always Accepted! :mad:

Doh!