Advice for a new Wannabe on going Commercial?

[Air Babe]

Dear Ppruners

Looks like you have a really great forum going. Perhaps I could draw on the experience of all those who Wannabe like myself.

You've probably heard this scenario before. I've applied for sponsorship a few times in the past with our nations much embellished carrier BA without any luck. Infact didn't even get an interview. I know I met all the minimum criteria, but no doubt there are those who go beyond that. I guess I could apply again as I'm still well below the max age limit - God Bless!

I'm now considering my options like doing a full time course/modular (if I can get the vast sums needed!). Wasn't sure if a few rejections were saying that I'm really not cut out for this? Would I be wasting money on a full time course given those rejections?

I'm sure some of you out there have had similar experiences.....if you would care to share them with me and let me know what you think? I know there are no guarantees of getting a job even if you do a full time course, but feel that this is the best chance of getting an airline job in the future - doing what I believe I'll enjoy most.

Any comments would be welcome.

Thanks a lot.
Sonia (AKA Air Babe)

[NigelS]

Go see if you actually like flying. Sorry if this is patronising. For all I know you could have loads of PPL hours but it's not clear from your note. There are some wannabes that drift through here who want to be an airline pilot but haven't actually been up yet to see if they like that element. You're not one of those are you?? :)

Save money. If you don't get the sponsorship and are serious about being a professional pilot (like you have an undying passion for flying sort of serious!) then you will be undoubtedly miserable if you plumb for someting else (I talk from experience here..). Save the money and put yourself through modular (or integrated if you can afford it)
Go get a Class 1 Medical certificate (Before you spend any of that cash on this endeavour).
I am doing the modular route and think it's great cos I don't have to give up my day job (not yet at least).
Shop around for your CPL/Multi/IR there are some real good places apart from OATS that will be cheaper and get you the same licence at the end.
You will no doubt get loads of responses from folks that have done the whole lot and now got fantastic flying jobs. You will also get those that have done all the courses, passed all the exams, sent off 200 CV's but have no job. Only you can decide what's best for you but if it's what you want don't let anyone put you off.

Best wishes and kind regards

Nigel

[Crash Barrier]

Get some big implants, then go see the Chief Pilot!!

[Token Bird]

Sonia,

You don't say whether or not you got invited to the aptitude test for BA. If you did and you failed, I recommend you spend some time working on that side of things until you are capable of passing (you could do the GAPAN tests to prove it to yourself). If you don't have the aptitude you may find the training a struggle and finding a job afterwards difficult.

Bear in mind there are sponsorships available other than BA. Here's a list with brief details:

1. BMI British Midland - no previous flying experience necessary, although it helps. Partial sponsorship - you must contribute £15,000. Training is with OATS.

2. Airtours - no previous flying experience necessary. Class 1 medical required on application. You must contribute £22,500. Training is with BAE in Jerez, Spain.

3. Air2000 - no previous flying experience necessary. You must contribute £22,500. Training is with Cabair at Cranfield.

4. British European - as above but contribution required is £33,000.

5. Aer Lingus - think this is a full sponsorship, but I have no details.

6. Air Atlantique - need 100 hours TT. Fully sponsored from that point. Training is with themselves and Flight Training College, South Africa.

7. GAPAN - full sponsorship. Must have PPL. No job at the end. Only runs once a year and you just missed this year.

8. British Women Pilots' Association - have a variety of sponsorships including an ab initio. Check out their website: BWPA (http://www.bwpa.com)

Alternatively you can pay for it all yourself, like most of the crazy nutters on this forum, including myself!

Good luck!
TB

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

[Air Babe]

NigelS

Cheers for the information. Rest assured, I've already done enough flying to know it's what I want. Mind you the butterflies in the stomach still don't go away when I hit a spot of bad air! Medical coming up and I'll also have a look at those GAPAN tests, although many have advised me to take those with a pinch of salt as they are not necessarily a crystal ball to one's future performance.

I guess I was unsure as to whether big carriers would hold anything against an applicant who previously applied, been rejected, and consequently qualified on their own belt and re-applied with a Frozen APTL.

Thanks
--------------------------------------------

Crash Barrier - you obviously didn't relate well to your mother. Must have been fed from a bottle :p

[Air Babe]

Token Bird,

Thanks for the advice...very comprehensive. As it happens, I wasn't invited to any assessment - straight rejection, so without doing any other tests it would be hard to determine whether or not the apptitude exists. This brings me back to that point about that saying something.....I guess it could be a whole host of things on my application form.......anyway.....

Although I only have a few hours under my belt, I imagine that those who have obtained sponsorship have some flying experience (of course there will be exceptions).

You mentioned that you paid for all your own training. I would have thought that there are a number of advantages with this. For one no bonding clause in your contract, two - no minimum employment period which may give rise to a penalty (no golden handcuffs as such). On the otherhand, I guess employment prospects are not as good as someone who is sponsored.

Did you do an Integrated course? If so how long did it take you to find a job after?

Anyone else out there who was in a similar position - ie hasn't even been invited to an assessment but considered doing it themselves and made a success of it?

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated.

Sonia

:confused:

[Busta Level]

Sonia,

See my reply to Capt Dicks Posting at web page (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010584)

I think it might apply to you as well!!

[Pilot Pete]

Sonia,

If you self sponsor, you will not be bonded for the cost of your licence as you have paid for it yourself, but when (if) you get your first break with a carrier you will definately be bonded for the cost to the airline of putting the 'type' on your licence. The bonds vary from airline to airline and type to type.

Hope this helps

PP

[Send Clowns]

Sonia

First off best of luck turning dream into reality.

When I looked into all this nearly 2 years ago if you can afford to do this without sponsorship then it is the cheapest way, in the end, unless you get BA.

Other sponsors give part sponsorships. They only give these if you go to given school for a modular course, with accomodation. The schools were not the cheapest, the accomodation expensive. An integrated course is a lot dearer than a modular course, which you can take full time and under JAA is approved to the same standards.

In one case I was looking at £20 000 sponsorship, but paying out at least £15 000 more, and being bonded to £40 000 (into type rating)! OK a guaranteed job if you pass, but if you can pass the interviews for the sponsorship, you are good enough for the job and should get something once you have the licence! And most type ratings are less than £15 000, so I object to being bonded for £40 000 for a £20 000 saving.

On the other hand, if this is how you can afford to do this, to get your bank manager to part with his money, then go for it. Every penny saved up, every gritty bit of work, every moment of struggle was worth it to be where I am now.

If you want any more advice, feel free to email (details in profile).

However you do this, hope it goes well.

SC

[Air Babe]

PP & BL

Thank you both for those tips. I didn't realise bonding arrangements were existed for doing type ratings. Do you know where I can find additional information on this?

I guess my biggest struggle is not knowing whether airlines will hold previous rejected applications against you even after you have passed and obtained your Frozen ATPL. I'm sure many of us are in that boat.

As you say if you get thatlucky break!
It's a shame more people haven't come forward. It would be encouraging to know (I'm sure not just to myself) of candidates who had been rejected for sponsorship, done the training themselves and then ended u working for the airline that rejected them. This does not necessarily have to be the biggest of airlines.

I take all your points on board. Thanks.

Regards

Sonia

[Token Bird]

Sonia,

I haven't actually completed training (hardly started actually) but it looks like I probably won't get a sponsorship, having tried a few times and failed, so I'm going down the modular route. I can't afford to do integrated and I hate being in debt, but if you can afford it, or don't mind being in debt, you will have more of a chance of getting a job having done an integrated course. Some airlines recently have been advertising for pilots with 'integrated and 250 hours' or 'modular and 1000 hours'.

So you may be able to walk straight out of an integrated course into a job, but highly unlikely having done modular.

[Air Babe]

Token Bird

Thanks again. One query though - when you mention 250 hours do you mean actual flying time or does that include Synthetics, Sim etc?

Have a nice day.

Sonia :rolleyes:

[Token Bird]

Actually it's probably a bit less than that, made up of:

150 in singles before taking the CPL;
25 hours CPL;
55 hours IR;
8 (?) ME.

20 hours of the IR will be simulator. These figures are based on the modular route, I'm not sure if/how they differ from integrated. Strictly speaking the flying should be the same for both, but in an interview with Cabair for the Air2000 sponsorship I was told that students leave the course with only 140 hours! V. strange. I wouldn't pay £50,000 for that! (admittedly that wasn't from someone on the instructional side, so it may be off the mark),

TB

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

[Lukeskywalker]

Having done this the hard way and discovered there is no cheap way of doing it . The modular route is not much cheaper than the integrated route except you don't have to pay mega bucks all at once , but you get the same licence . Pick a training provider and stick with them . Some airlines like to see all training done at one school . Also being a regular customer is no bad thing , they may chuck in that extra sim hour for free , you never know ? Personally I did all my ground school at Bristol and all the flying with Bristol Flying Centre . Everybody has a preference , I think they are all good , you have to decide which one is best for you . The vast majority of pilots are self sponsored . The numbers I was once told were something like 100 BA sponsorships and 16,000 applicants . So the only sure fire way to get that elusive frozen ATPL is to pay for it yourself . Once you get the frozen ATPL there is no guarantee of a job . There are hundreds of low hour frozen ATPL's out there some are getting jobs but quite a lot aren't . My company won't look at anybody with less than 1000 hrs . I wish you luck , just stick at it , you never know want might happen . I made it against all the odds .

[Crowe]

TB

very helpful rundown of the sponsorships on offer, but I'm a bit confused about BMI.

I know their ad is due any time in FI, but I was just curious as you mention them twice (no 1 BMI, then no 4 BM) - is one of them British Midland commuter? I thought there was only the one scheme.

Cheers

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: Crowe ]

[EGGD]

The Airtours sponsorship looks like the one for me!!!!

Wow, 6 months+ in spain, what would i do for that!

And only £22,500!!!!

Regards

Dan :cool:

Edited because i have no knowledge in using comma's..

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: EGGD ]

[Token Bird]

Doh! Number 4 was meant to say 'British European'. I shall go back and amend it.

TB