Warning to Pax Who Deliberately Cause Delay

[bealine]

A few days ago, a lady went to check-in for a US bound flight with her two children.
"Isn't your husband travelling?" asked the check-in clerk, observing a booking for the whole family.

"Oh yes," quoth the lady, "He's working at the office and will meet us in the Executive Club lounge later."

"I'm sorry," replied said agent, "I can't check you in until the entire family is here. Obviously things in your baggage belong to your husband and if he doesn't turn up, you'll be wanting your baggage back."

"Oh no!" seethed the lady, "Let me tell you, we're Gold Card holders and everything in these bags belongs to me and even if my husband doesn't arrive, (which isn't likely) the children and me will go without him!"

Needless to say, husband turned up at check in at the time the aircraft door was due to close. Wife and children waiting at the gate suddenly decide to offload when the dispatcher denies husband travel causing 45 minute delay to flight! (Caused by having to re-open holds and re-set up handling equipment, remove igloo containers containing baggage, locate passenger's bags, readjust load sheet, re-stow baggage containers, re-close hold doors)

Husband and wife have now duly lost their Gold Card status. However, quite apart from the inconvenience to the 260 odd pax on board, a penalty charge of £300 per min for the resultant delay is charged to the airline by the CAA which, hitherto, has never been made the responsibility of the passenger.

It is likely that a policy decision will be reviewed with the strong possibility of suing passengers who wilfully and intentionally cause delay to an aircraft!

[Heathrow09L]

Its a shame that things like this have to happen.

From Staff point of view its really annoying when people who think getting on a plane is just like a "bus". There are millions of things that goes on behind the scene.

Also when queing up for Check in please listen out for you flight Number for example say there are people waiting in one line to check in for the following flights:

Entebbe
Amsterdam
Paris
Colombo


Say you are at the back of the que you are waiting for the Amstredam Flight and its near closing time, you should hear and annoncement saying flight BA..... to AMS is closing for check in anybody not checked in should go to desk whatever number.

Please don't come to the front and say i've been stood in this que for say 30 mins.

Also pax with e tickets turn up at the gate and think they have already checked in, when asked for thier seat number they show you 23K ( basically the baggage allowances) it really causes delay for youselfs and other passengers.

[OL200]

Unless you work for a cargo outfit, perhaps we would all do well to remember that its the passengers who ultimately pay our wages at the end of the day! Yes its irritating to those of us that have spent years in the airport environment when people make apparently basic mistakes/get confused, lost etc / but don't forget for many of them its not a regular occurence this flying business. As for issuing warnings to potential passengers........
OK the lady in the example with a latecoming husband was taking the proverbial but it should never have got that far and the check in staff who allowed her to check in knowing what they do have to take some of the rap.
The majority of us who are in ground based customer service for the airlines do so because we enjoy the buzz of the environment and enjoy helping people out and making a hopefully positive contribution to their journey. God knows we don't do it for the money or the almost non existent concessions. 09 Left I have to wonder what your motivation is for doing this kind of work?

[rsoman]

Maybe I am going off topic here slightly. But I was just reading the book by Jeremy Snape (I hope I got the name right! about the BBC Airport serial of the Aeroflot customer service rep at Heathrow. Well written and surprisng how some of these "seemingly stupid" things the passengers do are just because things are different in different parts of the world.

09L, please also do bear in mind that with the increasing use of Etickets the travel agent is slowly going out of the picture and one of the direct results of this is the passengers are loosing a crucial intermediary who in many cases do brief the passengers.

And as OL200 points out, in some cases the check in staff do have to take some of the blame. Another incident which comes to mind is a long forgotten act of terrorism (before Lockerbie) with tragic loss of life, which still could have been avoided if the check in staff did not succumb to pressure and interline a baggage on a connecting flight without a confirmed reservation! This is not to question the competence of the check in staff, but just to point out that like the check in staff the travelling public is also human!

[PAXboy]

I am biased here, as an experienced traveller I generally get it right. It is true that the airlines have soent 20 years telling folks that it is just like a bus, so as to reduce fear of flying and increase loads. Well they achieved that!!

I support this kind of action and hope that ALL carriers wil publicise material to their pax.

I can understand how the e-ticket folk think that 23k is the seat :rolleyes: and the e-ticket will need to have it's printing re-thought. A few years ago, thei changed boarding passes to have the gate and time very much larger than before, something similar required.

The multiple international variations of airport and carrier requirements is never going to be fixed!

[Heathrow09L]

Well with all due respect to travellers, have you ever sat down on the desk ?

You are right our Customers are bread and butter for us, I do enjoy my job at the end of the day their is no law saying I have to stay there, its my choice.

But you have to at least try to understand it from our point of view we are all human and make mistakes i agree with that.

But for somebody stood in the que and doesn't pay any attention to announcements and then come to the front of the desk and have a go at you well at the end of the day we are here to give Customer Service AND NOT TAKE ABUSE.

For instance I did my upmost best to phone the gate and see if a passenger with no hold baggage can make the flight, the passenger pleaded to go, so I checked him in and told him he needs to run to the gate quickly and he says "yes sure, thanks very much" about 10 mins later the gate staff had to look and delay the flight because he decided to go shopping in duty free quickly. I'm sure you can see my point.

[bealine]

The emphasis here is very much "wilfully and intentionally causing delay", not the genuine mistake where passengers go to the wrong gate or off-load on compassionate grounds.

When the agent (in the UK anyway) asked the lady the security questions "Are the contents your own?", she actually entered into a verbal contract with the airline and promised that she would travel if her husband failed to join! She also committed a criminal offence by "uttering a false statement" to the airline in relation to the security questions.

One must have concerns for the passengers on board the flight who were delayed, not by 45 minutes as I thought, but by over 5 hours because after the aircraft pushed back and taxiied away, it was held in a remote area awaiting a new slot time! How many red-eyes appeared at business meetings next morning........how many friends and relatives paced anxiously across airport arrivals concourses next moring in the USA (they always believe the worst when they see lengthy delays, no matter how reassuring the Info desk people are!)

[Momo]

Difficult one. I have never been asked the question about luggage when my wife and I have checked in separately, but have not done so since Sept 11, so things may have changed.

An old aggravation seems to have improved a bit in LHR. This is the screens saying "Boarding", going to the gate, and discovering that the aircraft has yet to arrive. Last time this happened, I asked the BA person at the desk why they did this. She replied that they didn't want the PAX "dilly-dallying" in the duty free. The issue with that is the credibility of the boarding calls. Now I just get to the gate 15 mins before departure, provided it does not still say "Go to gate". Some lounges have gates, which helps. The SR people forgot to call a flight in the lounge a while back, which had odd consequences, but that's even further off topic.

Momo

[bealine]

Certainly at LGW, Momo, the screens are controlled by the BAA (or GAL as they're now known). The "Gate Closing" messages are semi-automatic - they are time-controlled - regardless of whether the aircraft is delayed or not!

It does cause a certain amount of frustration.

The Duty-Free issue is a difficult one:

The shops want you to spend, spend, spend.
The airlines want you at the gate (and if they could, they'd like to see the shops abolished!)
The money you spend in the shops subsidises the airlines' airport charges (or so we're told, but why are HAL putting up LHR's fees by 16%!?!), so, in theory, you're doing us a favour if you go shopping!

[whatshouldiuse]

and living in N.Y, I understand them. It doesn't mean I have to like them. I regularly arrive between 90 to 120 minutes before take-off and sit in the gate area for over an hour. Having said that,even though I don't like it, I've yet to miss a flight....just seems the time limitations are going overboard with so few people flying nowadays.

Andy

[Tiger]

I have just returned from SAN ex LHR with BA.

I was on a full fare ticket. Check-in at LHR was interesting to watch.
I arrive at T4 at 06:25, however the check in for tha SAN isn`t open yet. At 07:00 the check in opens and I join an already excisting queue which is checking in 2 other US destinations.

During my hour`s wait in the queue. YES 1 HOUR! I see a group of 3 paxs arguing regarding hold baggage. ie is well over weight. This knocks out one of the 4 check in desks for some 20 minutes.

However, the queue is being combed for paxs on the JFK and I believe IAD, hence my length of wait. I agree this is a good idea, however paxs like myself who get their butt into the airport in good time suffer. Interesting to note the late comers for the JFK and IAD were all American. So get your butts into gear...:D

[Eboy]

I'm sympathetic. The passenger, however, does not seem to be "deliberately causing delay", but is just getting off the plane. The passengers were allowed to get off the plane. Why? Apparently, they are permitted to do so. Perhaps whatever rule permits them to do so should be changed so they cannot get off the plane.

(By the way, if the airline and governing authority have so complicated the logistics there is a 45 minute delay in such an event, that is partly their problem. Why can't the ramp crew move faster?)

Suing is a dreary solution. The passenger might just instead feign illness, which the airline would have no recourse for. Seems to me that a policy change is warranted. Insist on having all members of a party traveling be together when checking in.

Perhaps the airline can ban the passengers from flying again, unless the airline is compensated for the delay. Losing the "gold card" status, or whatever, seems limp.

Also, if the airline can sue the passenger for deliberatley causing delay, the passenger should be able to sue the airline for deliberately causing delay, through:

1. not having full flight crew present
2. not having an agent at the jetway when plane arrives at gate
3. mechanics who are not ready, willing, and able to solve mechanical problems at the gate
4. not having a gate available for arriving plane
5. not flying faster in delaying headwinds
6. allowing passengers to carry on all manner of items in excess of stated guidelines

[SLF]

Some interesting points eboy, I guess your tongue is firmly in your cheek with the last few. The T&Cs of carriage exonerate the airline from just about every conceivable responsibility!

bealine given that both were gold card holders, and it was “unlikely” that all the luggage was actually the wife’s, wouldn’t the prudent thing to do be to admit them to the lounge and check them in from there once hubby arrived? Just a thought!

[bealine]

Unfortunately, SLF, we can't admit anyone to the lounge unless they are checked-in - our lounges are "Airside".

Now, EBoy, I know your suggestions are somewhat frivolous, however the operative word is "wilful and deliberate" and I would hope no airline ever "wilfully and deliberately" delays or frustrates its customers!

Unfortunately, our delay problems are like the record of German Autobahn accidents - "They don't happen that often, but when they do they're big ones!"

(Incidentally, for all that there are no speed limits for cars on German Autobahns, their motorway accident record is almost the lowest in the world!

:rolleyes:

[SLF]

Um, yes bealine, I kinda know that, but you certainly used to be able to check in at the gate, didn't you? I'm sure I've done so in the past, when a little pressed for time...;)

Short haul, hand baggage only...

[Eboy]

The passenger's actions in this case were termed "willfully and deliberately" delaying a flight. In my mind, that passenger is not willfully and deliberately delaying the flight, as that is likely not the passenger's intent. As a consequence of the passenger's actions, the flight is delayed, yes. That delay is not due to the passenger, however, but due to luggage security procedures beyond the passenger's control.

I would crack down hard on this unacceptable behavior. I merely suggest applying the "willfull and deliberate" standard is inappropriate, likely to fail in court, and bring bad publicity to everyone involved. But, I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps the standard has been applied successfully in similar cases.

[bealine]

Eboy - I am no solicitor either, but the term "wilful and deliberate" would probably work in a UK court as these travellers were frequent flyers and would know the consequences of off-loading at such a late stage.

Additionally, in British Law there is such a thing as a verbal contract and when someone is asked directly if the contents of their baggage are their own and whether or not they would travel without the missing party, if they answer falsely, they have nevertheless enteresd into a contract with the airline!

slf - You're dead right! Prior to 09/11, check in at the gate was permitted. Never again will that be the case - particularly as Mohammed Atta and his compatriots were "late check-in passengers" and First (Business) Class!

[Eboy]

I agree on the verbal statements / verbal contract issue. If a misrepresentation is made at the counter, I think that would be appropriate for a lawsuit. With most of my flying in Asia, I have not been exposed to UK airport procedures in many years.

[atco-matic]

I hate to state the obvious here, and I don't in any way condone the actions of the pax involved in this, but surely somebody slightly higher up than a check in girl on the day should have looked at this In a slightly less blinkered manner?

I mean, throwing the toys out of the pram when husband turned up late only served to aggravate the situation, causing Mrs Wife to do the same, resulting in big delay to airline and £300 times however many minutes. Surely, giving family a stern word or two (and maybe still demotion from Gold Card) but getting late pax onto plane with the help of one of those nice little buggies would have been preferable and probably caused less of a delay??

I know we have rules, but it takes initiative and imagination to get the job done most of the time- being a jobsworth when things go wrong doesn't benefit anybody.

[Captain Airclues]

bealine

Atco-matic makes a very valid point. Could it be claimed in court that it was actually the dispatchers inflexible attitude that caused the delay. A clever lawyer could argue that rushing the husand to the gate would only have delayed the aircraft by ten minutes at the most.

Airclues

[bealine]

Possibly - However, as the Aircraft Dispatch Co-ordinator is actually in control of the flight whilst on the ground, his/her decision (like the Captain's), is considered final and absolute. Furthermore, the position of Dispatcher is not dissimilar to the role of Sergeant Major in the Army, where it is a very foolish subaltern who would go against the R.S.M's wishes! The thing you overlook, is that the Dispatcher is (a) a Manager in his/her own right and (b) probably has more front-line operational experience than any "shiny bum"!

Additionally, there are other factors which would go against atco-matic's suggestion:

The one factor drummed into aviation staff from the day they first walk into an airport is to be extremely cautious with the late passenger. From a security standpoint, "Why are they late? What are they trying to get away with? What are they running from? What are they trying to smuggle on to the aircraft?" Regrettably, nearly every incident with terrorism has resulted from letting standards drop by rushing with a late passenger - the latest being 09/11 when Mohammed Atta was accepted late by United Airlines with such tragic consequences!

For this reason alone, no manager would back up atco-matic's suggestion and survive his/her career!

Gatwick (and Heathrow) security have been expressly instructed by the CAA and our management on no account to accept passengers with hold size baggage for entry to the gates. They are also briefed, once again by BA management, not to accept hand-written boarding cards. (It is impossible for the check-in staff to print a boarding pass after closure unless someone else - usually the Dispatcher - overrides the transaction.)


Both the CAA and FAA have expressly forbidden the acceptance of late running passengers following 09/11. This ruling has relaxed slightly, but after STD (Scheduled Departure Time) minus 40 minutes on a US bound service is a definite NO!

For Advance Security vetting and clearance of passengers, their passport details and those of the crew are sent automatically by our computer system at STD minus 20 minutes. Acceptance of a passenger without these details being forwarded results in a US$2,000 fine for the airline.


I'm afraid I do side with flexibility, but I have to concede that my own airline, with its "rules and regs" has the passengers' safety and security at its forefront! Put it this way, I know which airline I'm happiest with which to fly!

[Globaliser]

bealine:
They are also briefed, once again by BA management, not to accept hand-written boarding cards. (It is impossible for the check-in staff to print a boarding pass after closure unless someone else - usually the Dispatcher - overrides the transaction.)


Both the CAA and FAA have expressly forbidden the acceptance of late running passengers following 09/11. This ruling has relaxed slightly, but after STD (Scheduled Departure Time) minus 40 minutes on a US bound service is a definite NO!A few years ago, I arrived at T4 very late because traffic from central London had been unbelievably bad (took about 2 1/2 hours instead of 1 1/4). It was -25 minutes from the departure time of my JNB flight. I was given a "have a go" boarding pass to get through security, and was then checked in at the gate as a standby. (No checked baggage.)

Does this mean that this is now totally impossible?

[bealine]

Yes, Globaliser! 'Fraid so!

The "Have a Go" Boarding Pass still exists but it means the passenger must now be escorted to the gate. Now that staffing levels are low, there is seldom anyone available for escort duty!

Catch 22!

[Globaliser]

Thank you - forewarned is forearmed. Not that I ever hope to be in quite that sort of position again. Nor would I be particularly comfortable waving my gold card around to try to get attention. Particularly as it's the much lesser form of gold issued by an esteemed partner airline.

[ExSimGuy]

Only slightly off the original subject . . . . ;)

I was flying out of LGW a few days ago, at the "gate 31 to 36 satellite".

Being one of those disgusting smoking people ( :yuk: ) I was waiting in the Metro Bar for the flight, getting in my last couple of smokes before 8 hours of no-smoking flight and an arrival airport (like all the others) with no "smoking area" on arrival while waiting for baggage.

Fortunately the gate where my flight was boarding was right oposite the bar as I was engrossed in the latest John J. Nance book (required pre-flight reading :) :) ) and missed the calls due to the elevator musak, I've noticed the same problem at LHR as well.

Fortunately no damage done that time, but could we please consider the audibilty of announcements at all locations in an airport?

(edited coz I carnt speell or trype good ;) )

[bealine]

Hey - ExSimGuy - what was the book? My wife always said I was the only one to get lost in a book and be oblivious to everything else!!!

Seriously though, the "Tax Free Goods" and "musack" are distractions that prevent last calls from being heard easily and I quite appreciate the point you're making.

There was never any suggestion that late pax would be sued.....it is only the very small number who deliberately and knowingly buck the system. The airlines must have some form of built-in defence, especially now that we have Internet check-in and Telephone check-in!

The guy who drops his mobile phone at security or hurries to the wrong gate may get a sharp word or two from the gate staff, but would never be pursued through legal channels!

Gatwick is Going for Growth - Great!!!