Why pilots are paid so much

[Doors to Automatic]

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/999408/

To those contributiors on this forum who claim pilots are nothing more that over-paid bus drivers I would recommend that you go to the above link and download the video.

Perhaps you will then realise why airline pilots are paid so well!

:eek: :eek:

[fergineer]

But then maybe an overpaid bus driver would have gone round long befor ehe got it that wrong!!!!!!!:D :D :D

[VIKING9]

I feel some soap boxes being loaded up here http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/cussing2.gif

[Final 3 Greens]

That's what happens when you build an aircraft carrier like runway at the bottom of a steep bump in a very breezy bit of the world and then try and land on it on bad day!

The ferry trip from Porto Santo must have been "sporting" that day tpoo.

[Go-Around]

Final 3 Greens
Aircraft carrier like runway
:confused: :confused: :confused:

From what I can see, it's Lisbon rwy 21, which, as far as I know, still has over 3800m (or 12000' to all the oldies) of decent tarmac.

However, with that wind, i'd like a bit more too!

[stuckmike]

I'm not admitting that we are paid much, but we shure need some money to buy our friends back when we finaly have some time off. :)

[Lump Jockey]

I'm not a pilot, but I consider your jobs as well worth the money, and I'm very envious! Keep up the good work, there are some people out there that appreciate you!

[stuckmike]

Thanx Lump jockey, nice to hear that sometimes. The company doesent allways seem to agree...

[MasterGreen]

In my next life, if I don't come back as a gecko, I would like to :

1. Earn as much as my friends thought I did.
2. Have as much time off as my neighbours thought I did.
3. Have as much sex down route as my wife thought I did.

MG

Life's a beach and then the tide comes in ...

Edited for spelling of gecko

[exeng]

This video clip provides a chilling insight into the A320 family control characteristics (particularly in roll) when operating in ‘normal law’ in limiting crosswinds with significant gusts. This airliner is the only one that has truly frightened me in these conditions, my previous handling experience being limited to B737 and B777 aircraft. (The crosswind limits are of a lower value on Airbus than Boeing)

In my experience the handling of the aircraft bears no resemblance to the experience one finds in the simulator. My company has had several ‘interesting’ approaches with the Bus resulting in contact with Airbus Industrie. Airbus Industrie apparently state that there is nothing wrong with the design of their flight control software and furthermore the ‘interesting’ approaches must be due to poor handling skills on behalf of the Pilot. To be fair to Airbus they did admit to pitch problems sometime back, this after several very hard landing events one of which resulted in serious damage to an aircraft in Bilbao.

Fine, I’m going back to Boeing just as soon as I can. I’ll miss that snazzy little pull out meal tray though!


Regards
Exeng

[Earthmover]

Paid so much? Hell we must be kidding.

Guy lives next door in a beautiful 19th century house, just extended by about a third - lots of land and the latest car(s) outside. He is a city trader and his annual bonuses are more than my annual gross salary plus flight pay. Well, he's had enough and has retired.

He is 35 years of age.

[radar707]

the majority of you get a lot more than I do, and I stop you banging into each other in these overcrowded skies.

Hey, maybe oneday someone will realise my real worth and pay me a decent salary, how about Radar time when I'm sat at the screen looking at all the blips, thinking 30, 50, 100 miles ahead, climbing, descending, turning making sure I've got the required separation, and then after I think it's all ok, another load come in and I do the same.

If only it were that easy :confused:

I think pilots do a great job, 95% of the time I think you are just systems monitors, take-off and landing you earn some of your money.

The true value of a pilot comes when the proverbial hits the fan and you need someone up there thaty can actually "FLY".

[Doors to Automatic]

Just of of interest how often would conditions like this be encountered in a typical year - and how often would an incident like this (where a crash is narrowly averted) occur?

[ratsarrse]

The true value of a pilot comes when the proverbial hits the fan and you need someone up there thaty can actually "FLY".

It's like many professions: you are paid for what you know and what you can do rather than what you actually do.

[Tree]

TO: Exeng

Well said. I concur with your opinion. This aircraft type is not suitable for adverse weather conditions.

[Lou Scannon]

Sorry to disagree, but I have never experienced that sort of undamped roll in the Airbus. I did experience it twice on the 757. The first time it suddenly dropped a wing near the flare and in trying to level the aircraft it dropped the other wing. This happened about three times and the landing (mercifully on both wheels at the same time) intervened to prevent further departures.

Go-around? Would love to have done but by the time the engines were spooling up-it was all over.

The second time was on the approach when a gentle roll in either direction developed despite my inputs. It soon however seemed to damp itself and was merely interesting.

There was a Spanish operator who had the same 757 event going into TFS and managed to go-around, but clipped the fuselage under the tail. It was said that the FDR indicated that had he not elected to go-around, he could have dug a wing tip in.

I have thought about my nasty for years and considered all the possibilities including PIO, but without coming to a conclusion.

[Earthmover]

Lou, may sound obvious but was there a preceding aircraft? I was once landing at ORY on a flat calm beautiful summer morning. The previous landing A/C (an A320) had been 7nm ahead on the approach, and there had not been a ripple. As I flared, all hell broke lose in roll and I was compelled to use really gross aileron inputs both ways until, as so eloquently put earlier, "the landing intervened" and we subsided onto the earth in a flurry of feathers.

Medium following a medium with 7 miles between would not have alerted me to a potential wake-turbulence encounter.

Does now though.

[Lou Scannon]

Good thought, but with my events there was a cross wind. A strong one in the first incident and a light one for the second.

[NILOC]

SMART PILOT TO COME IN FOR A LOOK.... NOT SMART TO CONTINUE SO CLOSE TO THE GROUND:mad:

[Pegasus77]

2 thoughts:

1. Those pilots just barely escaped disaster by waiting sooo long with going around, really pretty scary
2. I've flown the 320 family in some pretty weird conditions, initiated a GA a few times, but such roll-manoeuvers don't occur not even in the most wild circumstances, if you understand the Airbus logic and let the aircraft sort out the gusts, and you steering the main thing. A trainer not long ago compared the 320 with a horse carriage: you only tell were you want to go, and the horses will pull the cart for you and correct for bumps in the road.
The short film looks like 99% PIO to me. And then 1% bad airmanship.
And maybe even 0,01% of pure luck?

P77

[Lou Scannon]

Departing somewhat from the event depicted on the video where the pilot experienced roll problems for some time:

Perhaps, Pegasus, like me, you have been simply lucky in not yet experiencing a sudden wing drop near the ground on the airbus.

If, on the airbus, there was such a drop and you then awaited the airplanes stabilisation kit to take over and level the wings without any input from you, it would be likely that the wing tip would dig in first.

[TopBunk]

The Airbus flight control laws are the biggest thing to get used to converting from a 'normal' aircraft, yes we all know that with time it will pick up the dropped wing in normal law,but the closer you get to the ground the less likely I am to give it time to do it before making my own input.

What I would like to see is the aircaft blend into direct law in pitch and roll between say 500 and 200 feet rad alt when the AP is off (ie hand flying) so that you know at the critical phase of flight exactly who (you) is controlling the surfaces.

Possibly you should still keep the elevator trimming out the trim change and inputting the trim to force the flare.

[Kestrel_909]

To be honest guys, if we are always going to carry passengers on flights like this one in the video, I think we are going to have to start paying them just as much. At first it just looks a bit rough but the last 10seconds looks too dangeours when the right wing gets a bit close to the ground. I guess this is why ATCOs are ATCOs, didn't fancy flying in those winds.

Apparently the conditions for that attempted landing were :-
Lisbone Portugal
Run way: 21
Altitude: 374 Ft
Wind direction: 270
Wind Speed: 20 m/h
Wind G.: 47 m/h
Temp: 15° C

[Bucking Bronco]

Having spoken to people who fly the A320 they have said that you do run out of control authority in gusts. And all this talk of direct law and normal law is scary. On the 757/767 you control the bloody thing end of story - which has got to be preferable to wrestling with the computer.

:D

[Krueger]

From some repplies that I've read, it looks like there are some pretty good FS 2002 pilots in this forum.
As you all know, it's quite easy to spank those pilots on the video while you're standing in front of your computer with your coffee mug in one hand. Having experienced that kind of weather before I can only say that they did a great job. The aircraft was quite stable until close to the ground when suddenly it was caught by a gust of wind. The decision to go-around was taken immediately (and not late, as some guys wrote). This could be seen from the recorders, and then they elected to go to Faro (FAO). Anyway, you could say that with reported gust winds they should have diverted immediately. That is one decision that I don't comment. But I respect the two options. And the guys who are flying out there are lying if they never landed with gusty winds.
:}
Cheers

[TopBunk]

BB

The sidestick inputs on the 'bus demand a roll (or pitch) rate. The fact that you reach the stops does not mean that you have full aileron or elevator. Once you get to full sidestick deflection , if you hold it there, the aircraft will continue to increase the surface deflection at the max allowable rate until full deflection is achieved.

On the odd occasion you do reach 'the stops', ie demand max rate. Do not confuse this with applying full control wheel deflection however.

PS Don't shoot the messenger(!), I consider myself temporarily on loan to an Airbus Fleet whilst awaiting my return to the queen of the skies [the 747-400].
;)

[Bus14]

Hey ho, another Airbus V the Luddites thread.

There are 2 techniques for roll control in gusty winds on the Bus.

1. Leave the stick alone. Let the flight control system pick the wing up. As it finishes doing that, the pilot puts some opposite stick in to correct back to the lateral flight path. This is the horse and cart technique described by Pegasus 77.

2. Thrash the stick around like a madman (or woman) and curse the aircraft for having insufficient roll control.

Technique number one works a treat and has looked after me for the last eleven years, including countless approaches to Funchal. It is also recommended by the manufacturer. With the stick neutral you are demanding zero roll rate. If the atmosphere moves the wing the FCS will apply up to full roll control to react to the situation before you even realise there is a problem. For this reason, technique 2 has little to commend it. The pilots roll input appears to have little initial effect after the wing drop because the FCS has already given you all there is. If you're in that situation and you don't like it - go around. Which is exactly what you would have to do on any other aircraft.

Most military pilots over control when they start formation flying, the competent ones soon stop, the others fail the course. Many Airbus pilots over control in gusts initially, the competent ones soon stop, the others whinge on PPRuNe (aided and abetted by luddites and FS2002 jocks).

Rant over, must get back to reading my CRM instructors manual!

[Bucking Bronco]

Topbunk & Bus14

Thank you for enlightening me - I didn't know about pitch/roll rate as opposed to control surface deflection. I see then that you've got to leave the 'bus until its finished dealing with the gust then roll it back to neutral, a couple of points....

i) How do you know that the upset has finished? What if you get 2 in the same direction that puts the aircraft at say 60 degrees bank, will the a/c just leave itself on its side?

ii) It would take a lot of conditioning for me not to react to the gust. If the picture out of the window changes, I do something about it. Sitting on my hands would seem very unnatural. Extraolating this further can we expect the aptitude tests to now seek out those candidates with really slow reaction times?

:D

BB

[Bus14]

BB,

If you move the stick laterally, the demand is for a roll rate, as Topbunk correctly states.

However, what is more relevant here is that if the stick is neutral, the system holds the roll attitude. So as soon as the gust changes the roll attitude, the system is already bringing it back before you react. As the auto system has greater authority than the sidestick, the pilot input will not add anything. The aircraft will already have applied up to full aileron and roll spoiler quicker than a pilot could.

The bottom line is that if the wing drop is uncontrollable on the bus, it would also have been uncontrollable on any other aircraft, but at least the bus would be feeding in a correction even earlier than a pilot could. The pilot reaction to the gust is indeed natural, but is more to move the aircraft back to the lateral flight path than to correct the wing drop. Airbus pilots that understand that do not over control and are impressed with the way the aircaft rides the bumps. Airbus pilots (and others) that don't understand that........well I've said all I'm going to on that score.

For anyone who has taken the trouble to pay atttention to the characteristics of FBW, hand flying the bus, in rough or smooth air, is entirely natural and, to my mind, delightful.

[Bucking Bronco]

Understood.

I still can't get my head around the aircraft moving control surfaces when I've taken the autopilot out - even though it could react quicker than I do.

I suppose it boils down to whose philosophy you plumb for Boeing or Airbus. Me being a simple man prefers boeing option - save for the 777 where the bloody thing puts rudder in for you on an engine failure.

An issue to consider is future type changes, in my company I know of a couple of cases where pilots of FBW aircraft have had difficulties on their conversions to conventional/older a/c due to "a loss of flying skills" eg trimming.

All the best

BB