Flying grading, why do they bother?

[StillTaxying]

Why do the RN (and the army?) do flying grading?

Surely it's far too early and far too short a course to stream pilots.
RN studes have already passed pilot and nav aptitude tests long before this point.

RAF ab-initio studes go straight into EFT so why don't their RN counterparts?
Is it just historical or is there some practical reason?

ST

[Chicken Leg]

Its not about streaming.

Grading is about deciding whether or not a student is likely to pass the subsequent pilots course and allows the Army/Navy to make a decision on whether to provide further training based on that perceived likelyhood.
Loading a student onto a course means a big upheaval for the student and lots of adminastration for the service. Especially if that student only lasts a few weeks before being "chopped".
Much easier (and cheaper) to send them onto a 3 week course to assess their future pass potential.

[StillTaxying]

"Much easier (and cheaper)" to run an additional separate Squadron just for the purpose?

If it makes such sense, why don't the RAF do it?

[Matt Skrossa]

Flying Grading does exactly what it says on the tin i.e. it grades people into those who are likely to pass subsequent flying training and those who are not. Whilst aptitude tests show whether a person has the aptitude to perform aircrew tasks, it cannot test the persons ability to perform in the air. As most of us know once you strap into an aircraft, especially under training, most of your brain power disappears. Logically people should undergo aircrew testing then flying grading before joining the services, but this would be very expensive. Of course FG cannot prove to be perfect as people still get chopped along the way, but it does 'weed out' those likely to fail at an early stage. The very old and sometimes quite bold pilots who did FG at Roborough reckoned they could tell on the first flight whether someone would be able to hack further training. Luckily for me we were allowed a full 13 hours, which included a magical solo in a Chipmunk ah Happy Days!

[Chicken Leg]

Still Taxying

Yes, even setting up a seperate unit (in the case of the Army, 6 x Firefly 160's with 5 instuctors - far from Sqn size!).
Army Flying Grading operates out of half an existing hanger at Middle Wallop. I would suggest that over a period of time - its been there for about 3 years so far - that even with the initial set up costs the relative low operating costs make it financially viable.
As Arrse pointed out, the RAF's version is called UAS where there are lots of units all over the country, all of which are about the same size as the single Army and Navy units.

P.S. Isn't it a little arrogant to suggest that it can't be a good idea if the RAF don't do it?

[StillTaxying]

No, the UASs carry out EFT and whilst they do perform the same function of rooting out those who can't cope with the training, direct entry pilots with no experience aren't put through the equivalent of 'Flying Grading' they just go directly into JEFTS (as far as I am aware).

P.S. Isn't it a little arrogant to suggest that it can't be a good idea if the RAF don't do it?

Ok, put it another way.
Why do the different services do it differently?
Aren't they all essentially after the same final product?

If you were in charge of ALL military pilot training, would you be in favour of Flying Grading for ALL potential pilots?

[Bri Uggin-Out]

Get chopped from grading and a bit miffed are we?

I suggest that if you looked at stats you might find your answer. I.e. see how many navy/raf get chopped relative to where they are going, not forgetting that multis are not applicable to the RN. Maybe its just they need to guarantee a better pilot for rotary - therefore grading. Not perfect but effective.

Besides the RN sqn fulfills a few more tasks than just pilot screening - i don't know if the Army is the same.

As for Jefts, well the Raf are pulling out of it.

[Biggus]

Didn't the RAF, years ago, have some Chipmunks at Swinderby doing exactly this sort of thing, to weed out poor pilot candidates early on at low cost?

[idle stop]

The older readers here may remember that old TV ad, for (I think)McDougals Flour. To plagiarise:
'Graded Brains Make Finer Flyers' (!)
I've been involved with grading over the years and it does give:
a. A better indication of training success than merely aptitude testing.
b. A few more flying hours experience to the eventually output student.

[kbf1]

To expand on Chicken Leg's answer..

The majority of RAF pilots are DE in their early to mid 20's and living inthe mess as they move around, therefoer if they fail and are chopped they either stay where they are holding, leave, or re-branch and move on smoewhere else to do a course. Many pilots are chopped at EFT stage.

The Army only has a small number of DE officers per course. The majority of each cse is made up of JNCOs and SNCO, many of whom are married, have MQ's and have served at least 5 years (as is the requirement). If they are chopped they go back to their original employment if they are AAC groundcrew, or are posted back to their Regiment.

The costs and upheaval of sending someone to MW (accompanied) only to move them off again in short order is huge. In most regimental establishments you are only entitled to an MQ if you are actively employed in that garrison/bks. You may get an MQ if you are on a long course, but there is no guarantee.

It therefore makes more sense to pre-qualify candidates for flying training on their actual ability to fly if the circumstances are suh that you cannot move them around easily if they are chopped.

Also, our training system is quite different from the RAF, and the tests undertaken at RAF Cranwell do not provide a full picture of all of the aptitudes necessary. As the presumption is that all students will progress onto RW on completion of EFT, it tests things like the situational awareness of potential students that the course will develop. Although it doesn't seems so at the time, what the FG course assesses has some relation to the trainign later received.

[Vortex Thing]

I see some but not all of what has gone on above. Not sure if this should be a new thread but why doesn't the army accept the training done by a UAS.

Colleauges of mine on the UAS who joined the RAF went straight to Shawbury, Linton or MELIN. Yet the army guys some of whom had completed the entire syallabus had to do JEFTS. Now that is a waste of the taxpayers money.

We were all taught by CFS instructors in lt ac and though not complaining about the extra hours. For the DE young AAC Offrs it seems to waste valuable career time that could have been spent either attached to another arm or getting on with rotary. For the E3 pilots this was just holding up promotion and career prosepcts.

Correct me if I'm wrong ;)

[Tourist]

Vortex, things may have changed, but certainly flying on a UAS when I did it in no way compares to Jefts, and I think is just the RAF trying to save money. For a start UAS is fun and the pressure isnt on in anything like the same way.

[Tonkenna]

I suppose it depends when you were on the UAS Tourist, but things are getting changing and the students have to work harder an take things a lot more seriously than they had to a few years ago.

Tonks

[AllTrimDoubt]

With the demise of the RAF element of JEFTS the RAF will be conducting EFT within the UAS system, which also means streaming at that point. So for anyone undergoing this it most definitely IS serious these days!

[kbf1]

Vortex.. The issue is more of timing than anything else. 2Lts are streamed to the flying course nearest the end of their CCC. With an average of 2-5 officer pilots per course of 10-12 students it would be more impractical to hold them until the RW phase of training than to just put them through the course in its entirety.

[Tourist]

Tonks
If this is true, then what a terrible thing to do to poor students who should be having fun at uni, not worrying about chop rides!

[FJJP]

The RAF DID have a flying grading unit at Swinderby until not too long ago. The purpose of this was nothing more than to see if the individual could absorb instruction (and to see if he did, indeed, have the aptitude to fly!). Then along came JEFTS, which was just as cost-effective as Swinderby; jointery = saving money and was flavour of the day, along with civilianisation, contractors, et al. So Swinderby closed.

Amazing how things go full circle, isn't it? In the 60's, if you held a PPL (eg through the ATC flying scholarship scheme) or if you had been on a UAS, then you went directly from IOT to BFTS (JPs). For those that had neither experience, they went from IOT to 30 hours on Chipmunks before going on to BFTS.

We'll get it right some day!

[DB6]

What's more, Tourist, JEFTS is fun (for some anyway judging by the bleary eyes after a grad at Linton) although I couldn't say there's no pressure.

[Reichman]

Can't understand all this JEFTS cost saving b******s. I did the very last Flying Selection Squadron course at Swinderby.

Leave Cranwell and see if you can actually pole an aircraft on something really cheap (Chipmunk). If you can, be taught to fly a jet on something quite cheap (Jet Provost). If you can hack that, learn how to fly/shoot/drop bombs on something a bit more expensive (Hawk). That way you get rid of all the crap at the cheap stages, and not grading/teaching on new expensive stuff.

Seemed to work at the time.

[Cambo]

I was just wondering, for all you guys and girls who have been through flying grading, how many of you had previous flying experience and did it stand you in good stead?

I've heard different things from different people. Some say that minimal flying experience is better as you then learn everything the correct way the first time. Others have said that a PPL gives a good grounding to pass grading.

Who is correct?

Cambo

[kbf1]

It depends on the individual. Some people argue that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing because you are being assessed on both your flying skills and your ability to assimilate the training the army wants to give. Previous knowledge could lead to overconfidence or having learned a particular style of flying it may prove difficult to un-learn and adjust to the way the instructor wants to do things. Ultimately getting through grading doesn't mean you will automatically pass the course and you can be chopped at any time as the course gets progressively harder and more demanding. If you have the skills and determination to pass you will pass even if you have never flown an aircraft before. Training to do a PPL before grading will only benefit you in the first few weeks of the course if at all.

[SunderlandMatt]

In my limited flying experience I've completed an RAF Flying Scholarship and RAF EFT whilst on a UAS. I'm now apply for a commission in the Army and have sponsorship from the AAC. I will therefore, assuming I am selected at RCB, be heading to Middle Wallop to do AFG. I'm worried because I have just under 150 hours to a high standard. I'm worried I'll be eaten alive by the QFIs at AFG due to my EFT experience.

Also, if were to pass AFG, would I then have to do EFT again, or a refresher course as it's been a year since I completed EFT? Will the AAC contact my old UAS and get my EFT reports?

I can't wait though!!!! :O Westbury here I come :mad:

[mutleyfour]

When i did my grading, i was a complete novice....I really struggled for the first 5 hours and was pained to hear everyone else telling stories of looping and rolling etc. I was still struggling around the circuit...and then it suddenly clicked..almost like when you first get your balance on a bike or when your learning to drive.

I was amazed to find that come judgement day my peers and I all passed and the story telling red barons failed.....

The only advice I can give is that you have to give it your all, spend some down time in an aircraft learning the checks, fly the sortie in your head etc etc...and never argue with your instructor....

[bobtoo]

:rolleyes:

"Maths lesson"

RN 13hrs grading + 60hrs eft (aim rw + "odd fj") = 73hrs
ARMY 13hrs grading + 40hrs eft (aim rw) = 53hrs
RAF no grading, very soon de @ uas both 60hrs
(uas was 86) = 60hrs

If I was a bean counter (and I’m not) I would be asking why at Shawbury is there up to 20 hrs difference between the three services.



Ans, no reason

perhaps only those showing fj potential should get the extra 20hrs???? big saving there I'll bet!



:}

[Low Ball]

It is interesting to see the comments in this thread. Some years ago when flying grading was introduced in the Army I held a post in the flying training of Army pilots.

One or two points of interest:-

Once we had courses fully loaded with 'graded grains' the overal failure rate on the Army Pilots Course' (APC) fell dramatically. Typically failure rate was anywhere between 50 to 70 percent, after grading this fell to the order of 20 percent.

PPL or previous flying. It was not unheard of for those with previous fixed wing experience to fail grading. The criteria was ' Does this student show the aptitude and progress over the 13 hours to satisfy us that he could cope with learning to fly and operate an Army helicopter in 12 months' The key there is the time limit. Often individuals had gained their fixed wing experience over long periods. This was not always because of time or financial constriants often they were slow learners. Those slower learners who had fixed wing experience and passed grading often had flaws in their overall ability masked by this fixed wing experience. These types fell early on in rotary training when their true ability to learn to fly in a new type in a set time became obvious.

My advice is that which ever service you plan to learn to fly with go with them. They have learned what works for them and if you have any previous let people know without bragging about it.

Oh and by the way - enjoy the whole experience, flying is great, but teaching someone to fly is really fulfilling.

LB

[kbf1]

I'm worried because I have just under 150 hours to a high standard. I'm worried I'll be eaten alive by the QFIs at AFG due to my EFT experience.

Be discreet about it. The instructors will know about your experience. What you will find is that as an officer with some experience the QHIs will be looking to you to help and lead any students who struggle.

Also, if were to pass AFG, would I then have to do EFT again

Yes. The systems can't accommodate students jumping in and out at various stages. Equally, you could miss a vital element of the syllabus by this irrespective of your flying.

Concentrate on passing RCB and then RMAS first as you can't get to MW without them, and they are fun in their own way too!

[SunderlandMatt]

RCB is the most important thing at hand for me, this is true. I'm focusing as much as I can. Just not sure which way the ball will drop. :yuk: Am really looking forward to RMAS though. Looking forward to MW more though :cool: