Balmoral downsizing ???

[B190]

I heard a rumour over the weekend that several of the office staff at balmoral have been told to look for new jobs at the end of the month. :eek:

Does this mean I should stop hassling them for a job and concentrate more on Rossair, Solenta, King Air Services or NAC or just carry on instructing until I get the call from Airways :confused:

[V1 Rotate]

I hear the Danes are vigourously bidding for a lot of contracts in Africa. Watch out!
V1 Rotate
:(

[gravitysux]

No one can really compete against Aviation Assistance as they are subsidised by their goverment. Not a bad company at all.
Im sure some of the Moral pilots will be switching over to AA.
Antigravity rules
:)

[Max Torque]

Ah, gravitysux, sounds nice but unfortunately untrue. Zimex used to get subsidies from the Swiss government, but the Danish government is not as helpful, and it would be illegal anyway under EU legislation.

As for competing against AA, Rossair has been doing a fine job of that for some years, and let us hope that they continue to. It would be boring to be the only fish in the pond.

Before everybody starts bombarding me with questions, I know nothing about these particular contracts other than that there are some very busy people back in Denmark at the moment. I am fortunately not one of them.

[international hog driver]

As for competing against AA, Rossair has been doing a fine job of that for some years, and let us hope that they continue to.

Competitions great but how about paying the crews what's owed..............:mad: :rolleyes:

Oh thats right there an SA company.........:eek:

Long live the revolving (revolting) door of lowest price wins contract aviation.

Balmoral, Benavia whoes next.....:D

[Anonymous]

Hiya Max Torque,

Well if it isn't "-The Dane with the suspect Oz accent"...........

I hear your birds tail feathers were clipped a while ago..... was it replaced or is there just something different painted on the back now?:p

As for "sounds nice but unfortunately untrue".......... I could say the same here.......

[V1 Rotate]

Well guys, I don't believe that AA are NOT SUBSIDISED. We must fight for our contracts/jobs.
I for one will not sit back and allow unfair subsidised competition take our work away!

Anyone with any info on AA please Email me on [email protected]

I firmly believe in fair competition and let the best man win.... but I will fight against unfair practices!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
V1 Rotate

[Sir Cumference]

What interests me on this score is the following, not only is it apparent that the Danes are getting financial assistance from their government to compete in the open market but as I understand it they are also Beech agents. Does this not smell a little as on the one hand they are selling aircraft to customers and then competing against them on the open market? Methinks that NAC fall in this category as well! Not very fair when you use your distributor status to beat the people you sell aircraft to and take away their income and their ability to make their investment work. Thoughts?

[Max Torque]

Please excuse me.
I tried to be serious, but gave up.

LET IT BE KNOWN !
Those of us loosely associated with the Evil Empire of Aviation Assistance' up on the 55th parrallel wish to make it known, that fully supported by illegal EU subsidies and illicit weapons of mass destruction supplied to us by Iraq, as well as some death beam microwave toaster ovens we got at Woolworths:

1)
We intend to bury all you miserable SA pilots and your useless aircraft (well ODG, anyway) in a large pit outside Lanseria and divide the world between us, the North Koreans and Airserv.

2)
We will invade Bermuda, take all the Buddhist monks hostage and demand the reinstatement of Margaret Thatcher as the head of the Taleban.

3)
Failing the above, the reinstatement of Steve Waugh to the one day side will suffice.


You have been warned !

Max Torque
Jedi Knight
Member of the Axis of Almost Evil.

Long Live our Glorious Leader Kim Jong Il !


PS: Tailfeathers much recovered, thankyou. New gold plated horizontal stabilizer is v. nice.

[Anonymous]

Sir Cumference,

I do believe you're right........ Wouldn't that also mean that they have access to a cheaper spares line too? Which should of course then be sold at the going rate (including to their own flying ops)? Seemingly we so-far have; bidding in competition to ones own customers, have the possibility to use cheaper spares in contradiction to their agreement with Raytheon (notice the word possibility) & by the looks of it subsidies.

Max Torque,

I'd have to say your latest post strikes me as being truly pathetic :mad: :mad: :mad:. Was it an attempt at "humour"? If it was, given that many of the crews referred to above could well be out of work in a couple of weeks it was at best a complete failure & in particularly bad taste. I know a couple of the Balmoral crews & I've met / flown with you several times. If I had to choose who to be stuck in an aeroplane with it'd be one of the guys from S.A., anyday.

PS, If we can track him down I'm sure we can send some more money to the ex Taliban tank driver & ask him to do a proper job next time :p

[Anonymous]

MaxToque,

There'd been several mentions of Danish / government subsidies in this thread but no mention, till your message above, of EU subsidies.

I couldn't help wondering what prompted you to write that instead of 'government subsidies' or 'Danish subsides'???

Are you trying to tell us something?? :rolleyes: :p

[Sir Cumference]

Anonymous, thank you for the intellegent contribution to this site. I am sure that any EU subsidy would be illegal however maybe there is something that Max Torque knows as he seems very close to the AA camp.

I remember from years ago the Boeing Airbus saga and the unfair shouts from the USA market about the subsidies of the Airbus consortium and the increased sale of their product. The subsidy issue has been around before, however i would not be surprised if this was not a Danish Government "Grant" of sorts. Numbers of around $200 to $300 per hour have been spoken about!!

That certainly will kill off any competition added to that cheaper spares etc!!! Aircraft in Africa will soon all have horns and look like Hagar the Horrible!

[Anonymous]

Sir Cumference,

That's horribly decent of you..... Was just trying to do the decent thing....

As opposed to being close to the AA camp my understanding is that Max Torque is actually within said camp. What a pity he's gone quiet suddenly. One could almost be forgiven for thinking that he either thinks he's already said too much or that someone has perhaps touched a raw nerve? :rolleyes:

I've heard similar figures mentioned too.... what a "coincidence" :rolleyes:

Yes, I'm sure any sort of subsidy would be illegal & dressed up as something else. Hopefully the guys at Balmoral have a decent lawyer onto this......

The thought of the aircraft all having horns & looking like Hagar does make one cringe..... Mind, if Yankee Bravo were to get a hat with horns in it & a fur cape he'd probably look the part :D :D

Anon

[split bus]

Well well, competition or not ? All these companies would be in better shape if they were working together, i.e share the contracts regarding were the maintenance base is. We all know spare parts is our biggest problem, and when we have any, shipping them is mission impossible .....

And the bottom line, we don't see the money, the MDs have nice Jags, even when their company goes down......

[Max Torque]

Not quiet, just decided that my holiday was too short to trade in conspiracy theories and sledging. If you guys want to run down this track, that's fine with me - I just thought I'd do you a favour and save you wasting your time.
For the record, humour is a dangerous tool, but it beats derogatory comments, Anonymous. Which was the other option.

For the last time, I will restate that the whole idea of subsidies provided by either the Danish government or the EU, is hysterically funny - and that is also the position among the other AA people who I have discussed it with. Of course none of us can prove anything, but that's the beauty of a conspiracy theory.
And for the record, I am not currently with AA.

The point that Sir Cumference rises ref. spare parts is an intriguing one, but unfortunately again one that can never be proved one way or the other. I find it extremely unlikely, but that's just my two cents worth.

So all in all, this debate can go nowhere until somebody finds a smoking gun, and in my humble opinion, there isn't one. The rest remains opinions; you are fully aware of mine, so this is my final contribution on this subject.

Best regards to all of you,

-MT.

...now back to the beach......

[V1 Rotate]

It seems we are on a raw nerve here. I cannot imagine what Max Torques' problem is? Maybe an African Pilot stole his girlfriend one dark night:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: !

I think we are on to a smoking gun here, in so far as the figues seem to match all round. It would be logical for African contractors to be a little more competitive due to exchange rate annomolies etc. But for Europeans to consistently come in around $300 per hour less something doesn't add up.

I hope we can resolve this problem with some more serious input; especially as guys jobs are at stake here. It is much harder for an African to get a JAR validation than vice versa. Subsidies are really the last straw.

V1 Rotate:( :( :( :(

[Anonymous]

Max Torque,

So how was the holiday? Presumably you didn't get caught up in the fires round Sydney?

Maybe you should confirm the meaning of derogatory & the context that my comments were used within. As I said your post struck me as being truly pathetic, there you go, repeated to be sure. Fortunately when the Taleban fell out of favour in Afghanistan they didn't take over the rest of the world so I'm free to express such opinions.

You may well find the idea of subsidies to be hysterically funny, I'm sure those who'se jobs are threatened wouldn't share your mirth.

I'll quote a chunk of your message: "and that is also the position among the other AA people who I have discussed it with. Of course none of us can prove anything, but that's the beauty of a conspiracy theory.
And for the record, I am not currently with AA." Presumably you can see how it doesn't make sense? You refer to "the other AA people" and then contradict yourself by saying "And for the record, I am not currently with AA."

Which is true???

I think that your theory regarding the spares issue that Sir Cumference raises not being provable is incorrect. I'd be quite sure that it will, somehow, be provable.

V1 Rotate

Lol!:D A possibility.....

I'm sure there are several smoking guns lying around & I'd be sure that we won't need Hans Blix to find them!:) I think therein lies Max Torques problem, he's terrified someone is gonna find them.

I heard some information a few days ago which leads me, independantly of the 'coincidence' of hearing the same figure from different sources, to be very sure that there is some kind of payment to AA. I do also hope that the matter can be resolved & I wish the guys over there the best of luck in doing so.

The people I've discussed this with (including some who will be adversely affected by the whole business) have all said, as have a few people 'here', that if they'd won the contract on a level playing field they'd have had no objections / concerns but there is a concern that this could be the start of a dangerously slippery slope as far a fairness & even competition is concerned.

Regards
Anon

[Makulu Baas]

As for the smoking gun, does it count if they are operating Raytheon owned aircraft on an EU contract ? I guess it must... :D

Also what about an employee of a contract company, who leaves , joins the organisation awarding the contracts , then six months later leaves them only to return to the contract company to head up their Aviation section,?? conspiricy ? co incidence or insider trading ?

I saw earlier from gravitysux "Im sure some of the Moral pilots will be switching over to AA". won't rule it out completely I am sure they all got bills to pay and need to eat , but surely a JAR licence is required ??? JAR validations being almost impossible to get for those outside the eurozone ? or does AA have another scam going there as well ? :mad:

I don't know if many moral pilots would like to go to AA as captains only get $3500 and FO's get $2500 a month, and are left to fend for themselves. Work cycles are 3 to 6 months on, and 3 to 6 off without pay. maybe MB feels this is a fair way to treat his employees. But with the comments in this thread, IMHO looks like just another underhanded rip off merchant in the aviation industry.

"I hope we can resolve this problem with some more serious input; especially as guys jobs are at stake here. It is much harder for an African to get a JAR validation than vice versa. Subsidies are really the last straw."

Perhaps we should adopt the same attitude of job protection as the eurozone, especially when last week they approached NAC for aircraft.
Lets give them the same treatment as you would receive when trying to get an SA work permit. Use our affirmative action policy to work for us, if you need a foreigner to work for you, prove that there isn't a suitable South African to do the job before the SACAA issue validations sonder regverdige rede

If EU subsidies are available to European companies, is it really ethical that by doing so they promoting unfair business practices in a continent that is rife with corruption, that they are so desperately trying to eradicate with various so called schemes and incentives, under the guise of humanitarian aid ?? maybe they should assist the companies on the African continent that have a proven track record and adopt a policy of help those who are willing to help themselves, in effect encouraging foreign investment to those countries who are in need of it rather than a free handout ?:confused:

enuf ranting..... but it does strike me as strange that the Danes know anything about flying higher than 6 ft , considering the highest points in Denmark are the little mermaid, Lego land Eiffel Tower and a couple of thousand pig sties...
;)

[gravitysux]

Makulu
You have a definate point there and I was wondering why the SA goverment wouldnt assist in subsidizing some of the SA companies doing good contract work for all the UN and affiliates for the PR benefit? Our contract pilots should be proud for representing South Africa as they are (well most anyway) good ambasadors for South Africans and Pilots alike. Id like to think so anyway...
My coments on Moral pilots switching back over to AA was grounded on AA pilots going to the Morals cause the bucks was better, but now..? No job. Lower bucks is better than no Bucks.
Im still trying to find the proof (to quote a Bush we know) That AA do indeed get subsidized, I was always under the impression that: AA=NGO and stood to benifit from that status. Alas Im working on hearsay and word of mouth. Sorry.
So until I can prove subsidies, I wont be mentioning it again.
Hey SA companies get TAX relief from work outside SA declared or NON, cant that be considerd a subsidy?


k!
Antygravity rules!! O.

[pt6burnout]

time will tell as to what the out come is for all those concerned,,,lets hope its a victory for the third world and put one up on the those getting the free handouts

[Current Limiter]

Herewith some extracts from the Raytheon web site.....

RAYTHEON
STANDARDS OF BUSINESS ETHICS AND CONDUCT

Our Reputation —A Foundation Built on Personal Integrity and Ethical Principles
Throughout its history, Raytheon has been a global leader in technology and systems development. Our continued growth, profitability, and prosperity are linked to our employees’ ability to make decisions that are consistent with Raytheon’s business values and core ethical principles. By embedding these business values and principles in our policies and practices, Raytheon has established an ethical business culture that is accepted by its employees and woven into the fabric of the ways in which we work. We are an exceptional company, committed to:
• Integrity - We are honest and forthright in our dealings with employees, customers, suppliers, team-mates, competitors, shareholders, and the community. We conduct our business with respect for laws and regulations, and we promote individual responsibility to ensure that all actions are based on the highest ethical standards.
• Respect - We treat others as we would want to be treated - attentive to personal dignity and receptive to diversity of ideas. We recognize the value that comes from respecting individuality, personal experience, and varied heritages.
• Teamwork - We value teams because they promote trust, openness, challenge, opportunity and growth. We join with each other, our customers and our suppliers to provide high-value solutions to complex problems, requirements, and demands.
• Citizenship - We give back to the communities where we live and work. We serve as stewards of the environment - and strive to leave the world better for having been a good corporate citizen in the global marketplace.
These principles support and guide our leadership in establishing the strategic direction of the company. Our employees, representatives, and suppliers are expected to conduct their business in accordance with these ethical principles. We must do more than be compliant with laws, regulations and policies; we must work according to our ethical principles and endeavour to conduct ourselves in a manner beyond reproach. Raytheon’s reputation is based on the personal integrity of each of its employees and those with whom we do business. Sound judgment must be exercised in the service of our reputation as a global business leader, employer of choice, and good corporate citizen.


Promote Fair Trade and Free Enterprise— Boycotts and Price Fixing Erode Public Trust
Maintaining a level playing field in the course of doing business fosters fair play, promotes healthy competition and contributes to keeping the global marketplace dynamic and robust. When a company has an unfair advantage in the marketplace, competition is stifled and customers are negatively affected.
Raytheon promotes fair trade and free enterprise. Many of the countries in which Raytheon operates have enacted antitrust laws that prohibit unlawful “restraint of trade” and our company rigorously observes these statutes and regulations. Although these laws will vary from country to country, the antitrust laws of the United States and the European Union are representative of typical statutes. Generally, such laws prohibit restrictive trade agreements and/or practices that may reduce competition without providing beneficial effects to consumers. Such agreements and/or practices violate both public policy and Raytheon policy.
Prohibited “restraint of trade” practices that violate antitrust laws generally include:
• Agreements and understandings among competitors to fix or control prices
• Boycotts of specified suppliers or customers
• Efforts to misrepresent, disparage, or harass competitors
• Coordinating with competitors to allocate customers and/or territories
• Limitations on the production or sale of products or product lines for anticompetitive purposes
• Contracts or other arrangements that involve exclusive dealing
• Tie-in sales or other restrictive agreements with suppliers and customers
• Price discrimination
• Other restrictive terms of sale as between customers U.S. law prohibits U.S. firms and persons (and their controlled foreign subsidiaries) from complying with foreign countries’ boycotts against countries friendly to the United States, and from providing information concerning business relationships with boycotted countries.

Well, this certainly makes interesting reading Seeing that the aircraft used by AA in Kenya belong to - yes you guessed it - Raytheon!!!:eek:

Come on guys - get a life. If AA's role as Raytheon partner doesn't stink in being able to make lower bids, coupled to the "grants" that they receive, then who else stands a chance of doing business?? Just a thought - is it possibly Raytheon and not AA who are guilty here, or does Raytheon even know what their partners are up to??

[gravitysux]

You want to tell me that the Cessna Caravan Rep at Wilson isnt going to knok of a couple of dollars or defer a payment here or there to get his machine in on another UN contract??
Ive seen a/c reps virtually throw a/c at Opperators for free until the contract is up and running...??
Thats Bussiness mate.....

[Sir Cumference]

Good post Current Limiter!

Gravitysux, you have missed the point entirely! Good business is when the distributor assists the customer to get the contract and offers an aircraft for all the reasons that you gave, to make a sale. When the contract operator IS the distributor and is taking work away from the Raytheon customer, then that is unethical, unfair and I could go on quoting the above attachment.

This saga looks more and more interesting by the minute! Raytheon must look at their Danish and South African/UK distributors for a start. What they have posted on their website as a code of conduct and how they say they expect their distributors in the field to operate are very far apart.

Not a difficult case for a jury to decide on, should a class action suit be filed if some of the affected operators got together on this score. Balmoral, I am sure are not the only victims.

[Makulu Baas]

:D So Maybe when shakespere was penning "There is something rotten in the state of Denmark ", he was not refering to pigs that make the bacon !!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Anonymous]

Makulu Baas

"Also what about an employee of a contract company, who leaves , joins the organisation awarding the contracts , then six months later leaves them only to return to the contract company to head up their Aviation section,?? conspiricy ?"

Oh? Please, do tell us more.......... I think conspiracy is the mildest way of putting it..... how about industrial espionage?

"Perhaps we should adopt the same attitude of job protection as the eurozone, especially when last week they approached NAC for aircraft."

Err, that's leaving it somewhat late isn't it?!!! Isn't this contract changing over at the end of the month? How can AA have aircraft in place in Afghanistan before then? Especially given that they need to find them for Angola too.... I wonder what the UN's view will be if AA can't produce in time? If it were me I'd be severely hacked off to say the least.

Current Limiter

What an interesting post, thank-you very much! BTW, would it mean anything to you if I was to say digit minus?

"Well, this certainly makes interesting reading Seeing that the aircraft used by AA in Kenya belong to - yes you guessed it - Raytheon!!!"

I wonder if anyone has passed on all this information to Raytheon? Quite possibly they'd take exception at such facts.

"Just a thought - is it possibly Raytheon and not AA who are guilty here, or does Raytheon even know what their partners are up to??"

I'd be pretty sure they havn't got a clue what AA are up to, I think it's time they did........

Gravitysux

[I]"Ive seen a/c reps virtually throw a/c at Opperators for free until the contract is up and running...??"[/B]

I think you may have missed the point..... AA havn't reduced the price to get a contract up & running, they've submitted a bid which is the lowest because they appear to receive some kind of 'grant', they are a Raytheon aircraft so are, in a nutshell, putting their own customers out of work (doesn't really fit in with the Raytheon ethics quoted by current limiter) & would seem to have access to cheaper spares.

Makulu Baas

:D LOL!! Good point re the smell currently emanating from Denmark, smells lige pig muck but it isn't (just as distasteful though).

I still wonder how AA would propose to have aircraft in place in time? My spies tell me that they're proposing using a pair of F registered aircraft & a 5Y registered example. Is that in keeping with their aoc / this contract??

What a shame Max Torque doesn't have anything else to say...... his comments were so, er, interesting. I guess he might be back to flying LB around.

V1 Rotate

Do you still make home-videos? :D

Regards
Anon

[pt6burnout]

Is it a sign of things to come,that replies from the european front have ended.Any idea's if they will be arriving with the F registered aircraft in Kabul?

Time will tell.

P'S heard a little rumour that the european boys might not even make it at all............

[Anonymous]

Well, 5 days to go....................

As I can't get in touch with my spies in the area does anyone know if AA have made any progress in getting aircraft in-theatre yet??

I heard a rumour a few days ago that they'd said they'd be there on the 27th.:confused:

The clock is ticking......... :eek:

[Anonymous]

Afternoon Gents,

Well it all seems quiet on the Eastern front.......

Is there any news on when / how / if our continental cousins will make it to Kabul? Or are they already there???? If not does anyone in Denmark know if they've left?

I understand that these aircraft will need to be transferred to the Danish register.... does anyone know how easy it is to re-register from 5Y / F to OY? Can't imagine that it's without problems. Will the aircraft require any specific mods etc?

The clock is still ticking..... 3 days for them to be in place & ready to operate....... not long is it:rolleyes: What will the UN have to say if they're not there in time??

Well, enough of this, lunch beckons :D

Anon

[Makulu Baas]

The latest information that I now have is that under terms of the of the contracts signed with our friends AA and the UN they should have had all aircraft in place and ready to go by midnight last night.

So far they have 2 Kingairs in Angola ready for inspection without paperwork, and a small problem with import duties and insurance costs. Perhaps Polly should have done his homework more thoroughly on operating costs and conditions. ;)

they have another aircraft in position in Pakistan, however this is a Kenyan aircraft and crew, now would this mean they have the necessary permissions from the Kenyan authorities to operated on their operating certificate out of the country ?? I did think AA was a Danish company ? perhaps I am wrong here, but last time I looked they were.:eek:

Perhaps we should also look closely at the insurance implications should they not have the aircraft on their operating certificate. How many of the organisations flying with them would be happy to find out in the event of an incident, that their personel were covered for zip. Kenyan or French register, its not Danish no matter how you look at it. :eek:

As for the remaining aircraft, are they to be pulled from the proverbial magicians hat or are they still sitting on the ground at home base ?

I think maybe some interesting times are at hand, not only do they use unfair business practices to gain contracts , they are now not even sticking to the basic conditions outlined in the UN's contracts, Aircraft to be positioned at a given time to be able to take over from the existing operator. All aircraft to be on the same operating certificate. (this was a condition insisted on by the UN on a recent contract, where the operator had to replace several aircraft ).

Are we now going to see the UN as the toothless dinosaur it is, or are we going to be surprised and see them use the teeth they possess, or maybe just ask George Junior to put an addendum to the state of the union address to include "rogue operators".
:} :} :} :} :}

[Makulu Baas]

found a little info to add to the AA tide of woes to quote possibly from one who works for them, Oscar Yankee.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=78338&highlight=aviation+assistance


Well std. requirements are first of all the right to fly Danish registred aircraft - which means a danish or a JAA license, preferably with endorsements for the Citation (2 I think) BE200 and BE1900. While chaps with this profile are somewhat rare, less will probably do it, but everything boils down to the old supply & demand thing.

Std. contracts are for 3-6 months on and then off untill they need you again basically. Some flexibility is expected though. Generally it is a good outfit. Treat them well, and they will treat you well....

so where do these kenyan aircraft fit into the picture ?:hmm:

also rumoured is that the one aircraft on station for the UN is owned by no other than raytheon. bearing out the points made by current limiter.

As for AA treating well. "3 to 6 month on the off until they need you," and $3500 a month to work in the conditions they do, with nothing for the time you are not needed. Is this really treating employees "well" , I certainly think not. :yuk:

Perhaps it will not be such a bad thing for AA to disappear from the contract market all together, :ok:

[4granted]

Tried to send you a PM..!
alas your email is not working either....send me a pm or email via pprune as Id like to have a chin wag with you...
cheers
HB4g :=

[Anonymous]

Morning Gents,

Makulu Baas
"The latest information that I now have is that under terms of the of the contracts signed with our friends AA and the UN they should have had all aircraft in place and ready to go by midnight last night."

Ooops :rolleyes:

"So far they have 2 Kingairs in Angola ready for inspection without paperwork, and a small problem with import duties and insurance costs."

Not a particularly illustrious start then! :eek:

"Perhaps Polly should have done his homework more thoroughly on operating costs and conditions."

Would that be Polly the Belgian Waffle???

"they have another aircraft in position in Pakistan, however this is a Kenyan aircraft and crew, now would this mean they have the necessary permissions from the Kenyan authorities to operated on their operating certificate out of the country ?? I did think AA was a Danish company ? perhaps I am wrong here, but last time I looked they were."

I do believe you're correct, whilst they may well have a Kenyan subsidiary I'd be confident in guessing that it was AA Denmark which got the contracts, not AA Kenya........

"Perhaps we should also look closely at the insurance implications should they not have the aircraft on their operating certificate. How many of the organisations flying with them would be happy to find out in the event of an incident, that their personel were covered for zip. Kenyan or French register, its not Danish no matter how you look at it. "

I'd presume the UN would be more than a little miffed to find that out? Miffed enough to kick AA into touch???

"As for the remaining aircraft, are they to be pulled from the proverbial magicians hat or are they still sitting on the ground at home base ?"

Last info I had was about 24hrs ago when apparantly the other two aircraft for Afghanistan were still sitting in Denmark.

"I think maybe some interesting times are at hand, not only do they use unfair business practices to gain contracts , they are now not even sticking to the basic conditions outlined in the UN's contracts, Aircraft to be positioned at a given time to be able to take over from the existing operator. All aircraft to be on the same operating certificate. (this was a condition insisted on by the UN on a recent contract, where the operator had to replace several aircraft )."

Interesting times is one way of putting it!! I understand that the F-28 operated in Afghanistan is u/s at the moment...... By the looks of it tomorrow the UN will have a capacity of 19 seats there instead of 121..... I bet they enjoy that, not! :yuk:

"Are we now going to see the UN as the toothless dinosaur it is, or are we going to be surprised and see them use the teeth they possess, or maybe just ask George Junior to put an addendum to the state of the union address to include "rogue operators".

The UN, an ironically named organisation........ One can only hope for them to be fair to all interested parties & to not stand for being messed around by 'rogue operators'. After all, if they can't get aeroplanes over there on time how will they perform the rest of the time?

"also rumoured is that the one aircraft on station for the UN is owned by no other than raytheon. bearing out the points made by current limiter."

Havn't Raytheon and / or another operator been bitten by that one in the past & been forced to pull aircraft off contract?

"As for AA treating well. "3 to 6 month on the off until they need you," and $3500 a month to work in the conditions they do, with nothing for the time you are not needed. Is this really treating employees "well" , I certainly think not."

Crap deal :yuk: . I reckon the way an operator treats it's crew is a fine barometer of their general attitude.

Anon

[Makulu Baas]

Looks as though the dust is settling on this one, Balmoral seems to have fallen into the preverbial pile of poo and come up with a diamond between their teeth. :-)

The danish invasion didn't manage to get a foot hold into Angola and they were duly chased away by the UN. However I hear that their bid into Afghanistan was more successful. The UN being lenient and allowing them a grace period to set up and get going.
On that we shall see what happens, so far rumoured is that Balmoral are helping out during this "grace" period until they get their orders to pack and leave, this, i understand is all very dependant on what happens with the 2 remaining AA aircraft that are still not on station.

What still begs a question is have they resloved the Kenyan operating issue, as I understand it they still require CAA permission to be operating. So far this hasn't been given, or if it has it's only for a limited time... try 14 days....As they are now operating, does this mean they are legal and insured ???


As for Balmoral, maybe a job well done, but time will tell. Who knows how the UN works and how closely they will look at all operators and their practices.

[OSCAR YANKEE]

Now that I have been quoted I might as well drop a few lines.....
First of all. I am not with AA anymore, left them 2½ years ago.
The 5 lines I wrote abot the conditions at AA, are of course not really covering everything in detail, but I stand by my comment that if you treat them well they will do so to you.

Then I feel the need to adress a few issues. AA is not the dealer of anything (except aircraft and crew for UN+ICRC type missions.) The holding company who owns AA, has another company that among other things represents Beechcraft/Raytheon in Scandinavia. If you think that AA gets to buy aircraft and spares at some discounted rate from Raytheon due to this relationship, then I think you do non know much about business. (And I can personally vouch for the fact that we had to bloody scream for spares sometimes like everyone else.) Actually AA missed some business, and the oppurtunity to hire some good people in my time specifically due to the relationship with the Raytheon rep.

Subsidies.......hmmm..... I have not heard that one before. I find this very, very unlikely. If so they are very well hidden, and frankly I can not see from who they should get this ?? If anyone has some evidence, hard or circumstantial (don't know if that's spelled right) I would like to hear about it.

Either ways.....I thought that Balmoral won these contracts (at least the ones in Kabul) from AA a couple years ago, and now AA has won them back ?? I do not hear any sympathy for the AA guys that lost their jobs at that time ??

The last thing. It seems a little exaggerated to blame AA for the hardship of getting a JAR Flightcrew validation.....????
Come on.....

I understand that the people about to lose their jobs are dissapointed, and I feel sorry for them. I hope their employer will be able to find new work for them.

Rgds.

[contraxdog]

A little blue and white bird has whispered in my ear that they are not subsidized, but that the Danish goverment pays for the first year of a UN and related agencies contract as a donation to the UN. They have a certain amount available every year.On the second year the UN has to pay....... Does that makes sence why they keep some contracts only for a year before losing them to some South African operators, only to rewin the bid the following year. One of the South African operators told me they rechearched the deal extensivly for holes, but it is as watertight as a ducks ass. Well if its true who will be able to beat it? Nobody I ever worked for! This little song was confirmed by 2 of the AA drivers I got to know quite well. For AA not to pull the rabbit out of the hat in time has happened before. They showed up 14 days lat in the DRC as well and was sent home. So it looks like they are working on a reputation of not being able to deliver.

Only time will tell
:cool: :rolleyes: ;)

[MikeyH]

I wonder if any of the bosses of any of the companies mentioned would consider posting a response.

It irks me to see the crew snapping at each other when they are the "workers" - sent out to bring in the lolly under any condition - and most of the time working together - especially in the air - where there is no place for vendettas or petty politics. At the end of the day, it is the company heads that get situations like these to occur.

Nice place to see a lot of rumour and suggestive reasoning though.

Regardless of who has done what to whom for how much - it would be an ideal world where the playing field has the same rules for all sides and the (one and only) referee blows the whistle for all parties according to the same rule book. Keep it professional guys and gals - dont let the snide asides on this forum stop you all from remaining friends and professional partners in the air!:D

[Max Torque]

Mike: Well said.

I've always enjoyed the spirit of co-operation there has been in the field and espescially in the air between crews from AA, Rossair, Balmoral, King Air Services, Airserv, Zimex and all the rest, and the general feeling that management could mess with each other and that was a seperate and irrelevant issue on a daily basis.
Information has been shared, spares have been swapped or transported as a matter of course and other assistance provided over the years between crews who are each other competitors. This thread, whether or not it has any merits, is potentially very damaging to that spirit and it irks me as well to see crew snapping at each other.

We might work for different companys, but I consider the other contract guys as much closer colleagues than airline crew who I know socially. And I would like to keep it that way. Yeah, its tough that some people are out of a job for a while, but as Oscar Yankee pointed out, the shoe was on the other foot twelve months ago, and the Danes didn't scream about that.
The Balmoral crews in Afghanistan have done a great job over the last year, and I have no doubt that they will be somewhere else doing a great job before long. I just hope for them its a place with a better climate than this frozen hellhole- they deserve it :)

[contraxdog]

Well spoken MT. I have always felt the same. I was just intrerested to see were all this bitching was going to lead to. Hoped it would fizzle out and get to this though. Sad to hear of AA not making it on time, but glad for Balmoral that kept some. I hear the CV's were two feet thick on NAC's desk. One of the only problems I have with to much competition is that it benefits the clients not the Pilots. I saw the fees drop from 8000 to 4500/month since I started contracting 8 years ago. Any comments?


...the time has come the walrus said,
to speak of many things.
of pirate ships and sealing wax,
and cabbages and kings.....

[Sir Cumference]

I agree that we all need to work together. One lesson in aviation is that it is a very small industry. There are very few occasions when a name or company or individual is mentioned that we all know a little about and sometimes a lot. In this industry you cannot afford to have enemies as in a short period you could well require help from that source.

I have always been amazed at the amount of cooperation between the Rossair's, King Air Services, Balmoral etc. The crews have a comraderie second to none and management seem to work together to a large degree. Obviously competition is healthy and so to cooperate yet also compete is a good thing for all of us.

To Oskar Yankee, I think that maybe you have missed a point. I believe that the playing field should be level, I think that we all agree on that score, however there is some pretty strong evidence that it is not where AA are involved. Contraxdog does hit the nail on the head when he makes mention of the fact that contracts are won and then lost for a year, then won again. Bids are submitted that are below the operating cost of the aircraft. Unless AA were a charity and not a business, how can they do that? Unless of course they are receiving a little payment from the Danish Government or some similar source!

There seems to be a perception that there is a huge amount of money to be made in this part of the industry. With the kind of competition and number of players, other options are gaining favour and I strongly believe that margins are getting so tight that corners are going to be cut in an effort to make some cash!

Keep the cooperation going, do not lose the spirit between all of the crews, we are all in the same boat and hopefully with a level sea!!

[OSCAR YANKEE]

I did not miss the point, I too believe the playing field should be level. I just don't think the arguments are tight. Sure the owner of AA is a shrewed businessman, and probably would use any advantage presented to him, but I cannot see the Danish Goverment participate in any kind of "schemes"......

I have never flown a UN contract (except extensions) that was merely one-year contracts, has anyone ?? Maybe a start-up mission, I don't know.......

If there is anything to this at all, I would speculate that it might be more along the lines of the "buy-back" philosophy. Ie. the danish authorities/government tags a UN contribution with a danish label on it. I mean - I have never driven a UN car that was not made in Japan.......

Whether this practice exists or is fair or not, I really do not know.

Rgds. OY

[4granted]

BBC reporting Light a/c with 8 pob down in ocean off Karachi, Pakistan. Some senior minister from Afghani onboard. No Survivors.
Any one with latest??:confused: