O.S. flight experience looked on poorly!

[mjbow2]

I have spoken to a few flight dept managers and chief pilots recently and I am forming the opinion that Foreign flight experience isnt looked on favourably. Although people havent been saying this directly, I get the feeling that my experience in the U.S. is being met with a somewhat condescending attitude. Is this because it is easier to get ratings and certificates in the U.S.?

Despite never having flown in Australia, I feel that I am as qualified as those who got their ratings in oz or NZ after accumulating significant time as a captain in RPT turboprop ops in the U.S. Has anyone else found the same reactions from potential Australian employers or am I misreading the folks I am talking too?

:confused:

[Mr. Hat]

Can't answer your question for you mj as I'm not a hirer/firer.

Have one for you though - How is Aus experience looked at in the US?

G.A.?
Regionals?
Airlines?

[megle2]

We have had a turbo prop / jet driver from the US who handled our ops with ease. Why wouldn't he, our weather is so mild compared to what he had experienced. The problem he had were licence conversion dramas placed in front of him by CASA and FOI's. His hours were real, his experience wide and had all the formal docs you could ever require. Way in front of those who were causing him grief.

Also know of a Aus pilot who went to the US with minimal single piston time ( did not work with us in thoses days ) and progress up through Citation / Falcon Capt before returning to Aus. This guy did not strike the same CASA obstacles!! Now why would that be?

Once again no problem with the flying.

[mjbow2]

Mr. HAT....(height above touchdown i presume)

Its a bit like a meatworks over here, if you meet the min times then your in with a chance like everyone else. There are a LOT of foreign pilots here.

If you have the appropriate FAA certificate then thats all that counts until you get into the interview. As far as I can tell, if you can fill in required boxes on the app (ie, comm ticket, 1200hrs tt,100multi50 instr etc or whatever they are...some 121 operators have less mins) then the only difference is in the interview itself.(ie would i like to fly with this guy/girl)

this is a generalisation, but it should give you an idea. your oz time is fine;)

[hoss]

"height above touchdown"? :eek: ;)

new message for you.

Cheers hoss :p

[Icarus2001]

Height above Touchdown....you have answered your own question;)

[Mr. Hat]

Thanks for your reply mj - I think the same goes here. Who you know plays a pretty big role as it does all over the world


Mr. Hat...I was trying to think up a name and was watching southpark..:D

[Sheep Guts]

Mjbow2,
What I have come across, is that when I returned to Australia, after flying King Airs in Mexico, for a US Company on contract as a Foreign National. Sounds dodgey I know. I got mixed remarks, the people who knew me before I went as a Chieftain Pilot in the N.T.were fine . But others were sceptical. I myself also had what is classed as" EXPATITIS "which losely decribes oneself as an overseas extraodinare with heaps of expereince. And not realizing that the Turbine should not drop into my lap automatically.Consequently because of this and due other factors like Sept11, I missed out on any substantial work for 6 months after returning to Oz. My final connection to a job was through someone I knew rather than what I knew. I am afraid that generally how the wheel turns in Australia, for aviation employment. So unless you have had prior experience here, or you know someone who can give you a leg up so to speak it may difficult but not impossible.

Your posts make it sound easy to get a US JOB for a Budding Ozzie pilot. Well I have to dissagree. For one the immigration Barriers and secondly the competion in your country with high time drivers surely out way ours. My old Company couldnt get a visas for me, they said it was too hard and complicated, that was before Sept 11.

I maybe by myself with the following coments. I am starting to believe that Aussie Expat Pilots, become eventually allienated from their homeland , due partly to O/S better conditions and pay, and or the general opinion of prospective employers on their return for work in Oz. With this in mind, I am starting to belive, I have type cast myself, and will eventually make it nearly impossible to get work back in Oz. Please someone tell me Im wrong, are there any other Expats out there that feel the same?

:( :rolleyes: ;)

regards
Sheep

[mjbow2]

(EXPATITIS "which losely decribes oneself as an overseas extraodinare with heaps of expereince. And not realizing that the Turbine should not drop into my lap automatically

If im pickin up what ya puttin down there sheep.....Perhaps I am expecting too much just cos I have a bunch of turbine time?...
so assuming I DO know someone that can help prop the door open in OZ, will this experience be looked down upon still, or the U.S. experience is irrelevent given that the door must be opened by a mate etc?


Yes the visa thing still is an issue, but there has never been anything EASY per se in this industry. I know personally of ozzi mates that have become creative shall we say when it comes to the INS. (ie what will ya do to ova come da hurdles?)

Yeah sheep, in total numbers there are a lot more high time drivers on the street over here, and there will be more to follow. A mate of mine is a 73 driver at united. According to him an internal memo put out a month or so ago, indicated the possible furlough of another 2000 pilots over the next 12 months. Dont want to comment on the merit of this statement but the general thrust is that it will get worse before it gets better over here for the majors.

The most important thing though is that by and large, the vast majority of these high time ex major drivers have the kiss of death in the industry....none of the regionals want them and they (the regionals) are the only ones hiring at the mo! The reason they are highing is because the likes of UAL, DAL, NWA, CAL etc are palming off mainline flying to their regional partners in RJs.....
I can name half a dozen regionals that are taking delivery (in total) in excess of 6 RJs a month........that accounts for 35 crews (aprx) a month that they will be (are) hiring. These pilots are coming from the ranks of the commuters......Our company took on over 100 low time(relative <1000tt) pilots in the last 6 months and there are others like us out there.

In my humble opinion the market for airline pilots in this country has not changed since 9/11. The US industry is in a state of market realignment and pilots are getting hired, not at the majors but at the regionals and the frax where there is consumer demand......

Anyway, if I had to do it all over again I would still consider the US a gold mine for any expat to get started...beg, borrow steel and lie through you teeth to LEGALLY reside here (just one mans perspective!

Aussie Expat Pilots, become eventually allienated from their homeland , due partly to O/S better conditions and pay, and or the general opinion of prospective employers on their return for work in Oz.

So I take it you have also found a resistance so to speak, of your O.S. time, without regard to the industry standard of a mate giving you a leg up?

If Im gettin you right sheep then I definitly have found the same!:

[international hog driver]

I have the exact same feelings, and so do many of the ozmate's I have had the pleasure of working with.

Depending on your tour or rotation, you slowly feel more and more alienated from the pack.

Myself and others have been type cast (not just type rated), we are operating in environments and conditions that we cant explain to or mates.
Do you ever get a foot of snow, or 8500ft DA with transport category ops in Australia?

The plus side is we work 8 months a year or less, we usually earn serious $ tax free and the financial freedom that that brings when you return to OZ has no comparison. Having said that in Europe a coffee and toasted sandwhich will cost A$30, in Africa a lettus or a single beer can be A$10 each!!!!

I fly with other guys from all over the world, North & South America, Europe, Asia, Sth Africa and OZ and we generally all feel forgotten. Most of us have mutliple licences/ratings/experience and we all feel the same in trying to get a job back home no matter which country home is.

This is the prime reason why so many of the old boys jumped at the chance of nopulse and virgin spew, to live at home on half (or less) the salary, and still have a great lifestyle.They did their thing and have intergrated back into oz and those chances are rare ones indeed.

Your are not alone........ ;)

[druglord]

MJbow
I've had the priveledge to fly in both Aus and the US. I think what it is ....most employers don't have a similar international background and so they disregard any flying that's different to theirs. For example when i was flying out bush....everyone disdained flight intructors...I'm sure their flying isn't as hard but it has equally different challenges bush pilots aren't familiar with.
Australia does have a harder testing system to the US, but I think the flying here, for airlines anyway is much more difficult than anything you'd get in the aussie capital cities. When your TCAS has 7-8 planes on it and the range is 5 miles and you've gotta hold 210 kts to the outer marker while compensating for wake turbulence...I'm sure sydney is pretty tame.
Having said that...bush flying is much more difficult than airline flying. ....anyway now i'm starting to sound like an arrogant little know-it-all expat

mjbow... whoops now i see you're in the land of the free and the home of the brave...
i guess you know all about that stuff i mentioned anyway.

to crownies!

[TIMMEEEE]

Although holder of an Oz Passport and having learnt to fly in Oz (including ATPL theory + I/R) the bulk of my flying was bush/airline flying outside of Australia.

On arrival back in Oz my experience was gladly accepted as long as they could verify my credentials, which they did.

For someone coming from offshore (complete with foreign licenses) employers and companies tend to treat with some uncertainty until the candidate can prove themself in my limited experience.

Good luck!!

[mjbow2]

Hog Driver,

I see what you mean. I fly thoughout the rocky mountain states and see DA/H etc routinely around 10000ft, snow storms and traffic congestion that I can only presume isnt quite the same in oz. I think that at the least, my experience is no worse than if I had been flying back in oz!

Anyway, I seem to remember some years ago reading in the Age or Herald that Australians have the tall poppy syndrome. Do we still have it?

Are we at least xenophobic?

[The Enema Bandit]

Maybe employers view flying in America the easy way with their easier standards and would prefer to employ someone who has done it hard over here?

[Hugh Jarse]

Providing you meet the minimum experience, Australian licencing requirements and have the right to work in Australia, it does not matter one iota where you gained your experience if you apply for a job in the company I work for.

I see a lot of guys currently working in a variety of O/S countries coming through the interview process. Quite frankly I couldn't care less where they achieved their experience as long as it meets the Company requirements. Australia has some of the best weather conditions in the world. Personally, I would highly value someone who has worked in places with sh!t weather such as Europe or North America.

If you jump through the hoops you get the slot. Simple.

I think some people on this forum are reading a little too much into the O/S flying theory.

[mjbow2]

E.B.
Yes, that was one of my initial reactions. Its a possibility I guess. However I see no correlation between my proven ability as a safe airline captain and the path I chose to get there!

As druglord suggests..."most employers don't have a similar international background and so they disregard any flying that's different to theirs."

If this attitude is true then it stems from xenophobia! If what youre suggesting is true then that also is xenophobia with a touch of sour grapes perhaps.

I would suggest that any pilot who had the opportunity to half the cost of flight training, get an airline job, build valuable multi turbine RPT experience from less than 250 hours, would take that opportunity in a heartbeat! Why should anyone be punished for it?

If I told you EB that you could have got your multi, commercial IR with 100hrs of multi time for less than AU$22,000, would you have done it?

If this is truely why some employers look unfavourably on U.S. experience, then Its kind of childish.....I hope its not what they think.

[abroad]

Cheers for your reply Hugh.

Being an expat with a big desire to make it home soon, i too often wonder how my time accumulated o/s is and will be viewed. The flying i am doing right now, i probably wouldn't have the opportunity to do back home, at least not at this stage in my career--and that i often wonder how that is viewed by those at home--i like to think i've put in some hard yards, spending quite a few years away from my family and friends, and the country i love and living for the job-- however the yards i've put in have been different than a lot of my mates back in oz.

It's refreshing to hear your comments and it's a good thing to hear that some operators, do in fact take your o/s experience 'as it is'--we've all put in a lot of effort, and as you know it takes a lot of sacrifices to move up in this industry-regardless of where in the world you give it a shot.

Care to allude to what company/operation you are involved in recruiting with? charter/airline?

Cheers,

abroad

[Hugh Jarse]

Check your personal messages, Abroad.

[TurboOtter]

Yup, I am another expat and proud of it!!!
I like other expats, do fly in the REAL world of aviation, where the weather is not even near minimums etc...But let me say that Australia is a far more difficult place to obtain qualifications. I had a buddy come over here from north America a fly for two years on a tempory Aus licence, I think it cost him $100 for three months or something like that.
I have been flying out of Aus for a few years now and really need to get back home, I miss Oz big time.....:(
It is true that pilots and employers look unfavourably at expat pilots, one guy even said that they feel that expats shouldn't be able to return cause they haven't worked the hard yard like most Aussie pilots. Let me tell you I have worked alot more than a hard yard or two during my career and my heart has been there for evey aussie back home during their hard yards.

This is a small planet, an airplane is an airplane anywhere in the world. The toilet might flush the other way in the states but the prop still spins the same way anywhere in the world!
:cool:

[mjbow2]

You know...the more this expat prejudice is revealed the more ashamed I am to be an ozzi!

I am getting kinda sick of hearing first hand (and on this forum) that we did it the 'easy' way by going O.S. The only distinction that ozzies can legitimately claim is that the written exams are 'harder' in australia. Thats it!

every check ride i have done over here has been accompanied by a minimum 2 hour oral exam (3 1/2 on my ATP). I am now studying for my ozzie ATP theory credits. I personally see no difference in the level of study for these exams from the study i did for my 3 1/2 hour ATP oral.

Regardless, why should anyone be punished for taking a 'different' route to an airline career. Would it make more sense to punish the stupidity of those who chose a 'hard' route. No of course not. Stupidity is everyones birth right.

Are we ozzies that petty? Im begining to think so and its quite embarrassing.

For the record. In my expat, 'less than equal pilot' opinion, spending the last 5 years away from family and friends has not been the 'easiest' thing in the world. I have made more personal sacrifices for my career than I care to acknowledge. It hasnt been easy!