Did i read 4 Forces have gone bust too ???

[avrodamo]

I was flicking through the threads last night when it was late and i was tired. Did i read that 4 Forces have gone bust too? I've tried to find it again but with no luck. Anyone know ???? :confused:

[Sensible]

Try http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010532 (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010532)
and http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010471

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: Sensible ]

[TheSilverFox]

Yes it is true.

One of my students called me today and advised me that he had received a letter confirming that 4Forces had indeed ceased trading and that he would not be able to complete his ATPL course. Who will be next? (I don't want to start rhumours but keep a close eye on a well known Bournemouth outfit!!!!!

[scroggs]

Silver Fox,
you are 10 days too late with your scoop. PPSC went bust about that long ago.

[TheSilverFox]

scroggs

I think you will find that i'm early.

I'm not talking about PPSC ( old news!!)

[As The Prop Turns]

I agree with Silver Fox -

Some interesting developments down on the South Coast! :eek:

[QUERY]

I doubt it but are Fox and Prop insinuating that SFT are about to go?

[Lightning ace]

Don't fanny around guys. If you know of some interesting developments in Bournemouth. Tell us what the 'rumour' is. I like many other people are just about to hand over several thousand.

If you don't want to air it. Send me a private message. My email hasn't worked for weeks. (Line one , Suck). :mad:

[Polar_stereographic]

Crickey, not more bad news on this front.

But, we should be realy carefull here. On the one hand, just a rumour alone can cause a business to go under, but if anyone has SOLID evidence that it is about to go, well I'd shout about it, if only to stop others sending their cash in for nothing.


Fingers crossed it's not true.

PS

[poli]

I assure you it isn't true. Why would we be doing a rescue package for PPSC if we were about to go under. You narrowminded little people that have got nothing better to do than spread rumours to try and destroy someones livelyhood get off the bandwagon and get a life. Financially there is nothing at all wrong with SFT. They are in actual fact quite secure. So please stop spreading rubbish rumours that you can't even validate.

Poli :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: poli ]

[Polar_stereographic]

poli

I can understand your fustration, and do I take it that you repesent SFT?

May I suggest that you quash the rumours with a profesional reply backed up with hard facts.

PS

ps., I have nothing to do with any aviation outfit, nor am I about to put up large sums up front to one. Just an observation.

[poli]

Alot of the guys using this site know that I work for SFT at the moment. I put a great deal of work into helping the PPSC students when they were left high and dry.

I have also been a student here too. I hold a CPL/IR Fr ATPL, so I know exactly where they are comming from and I know exactly how much it cost's to train - I've paid for it! I am now job hunting in case you were wondering why I work here instead of flying.

Exactly what proof would you like that SFT are solvent? We are pretty busy at the moment with course starting all the time.

Quite honestly I would not let some one pay a deposit if I thought the company were in trouble.

Poli

[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: poli ]

[Polar_stereographic]

poli,

appologies if my reply left you feeling like I'd had a pop at you.

Actualy, what I was trying to say (probably badly mind you) was that rather than have a go at the list members, IN MY VIEW you would be better putting together a profesional reply to the allegations.

What to put, well, if you where the other side of the fence, what would you want to hear? Well for starters, I'd say how busy you are, how profitabe the co's been etc etc. Back it up with actual numbers.

I'm actualy tring to help in this matter. I've no axe to grind, but I hate wrong rumours particularily malicious ones as much as anyone. There are no winners out of them.

PS

Good luck job hunting. I may meet you one day...

[Blackshirt]

Guys:

If in doubt, get a credit check done.
http://www.infoprompt.com/index.asp

Just got a report on SFT. Fairly low credit limit (presumably because of being a small organisation), but other than that good. No CCJ's, no insolvency proceedings and a lower than average risk of going insolvent. Looks fine as far as I can tell.

Email me if you want further details.

Be very careful about spreading doubtful rummours about a company's finacial state. This can do a lot of damage to a business if it gains currency, and is hurtful to the individuals who work for that company.

It's like someone spreading it around to all the single ladies in your district that you're an AIDS-ridden faggot. They'd cross the road to get away from you, right? Ruin your pulling power pretty quickly. You wouldn't like that, would you?

[Lightning ace]

'THE SILVER FOX' & 'AS THE PROP TURNS'

Still Waiting for you to expand on your comments. Careless blabber is dangerous unless you back it up with details / facts.

:mad:

[Send Clowns]

Thanks very much for the support, Lightning.

Silver Fox, Prop Turns. If you cannot bring your points into the open, then kindly retract your hints.

[scroggs]

Silver Fox,
check your private messages in 'my profile'. In case you can't, or won't, I'll repeat the gist of it here.
You appear to be an instructor, presumably not with SFT. It doesn't require a huge leap of the imagination to guess how you might benefit from the demise of a rival school, and we are all aware of the danger of unsubstantiated rumourmongering to small companies.
Please substantiate your allegations or withdraw your post, with a suitable apology to SFT. Or be prepared to possibly defend yourself in court, if SFT take exception to your post!

[TheSilverFox]

Response to all interested PPRUNERS
Plus a response to the personal threat that I received from SCROGGS (the moderator??)
I feel that it is necessary to clarify my earlier post on this thread.

I would like to apologise for what is clearly a fundamental error in my post.

I thought that I was posting on the Professional Pilots RUMOR Network, not the Professional Pilots GUARANTEED FACT Network!( I'll change the settings in my favorites list!)

It's interesting that so many people are mentioning one particular training organization. I didn't mention any! - Have you heard a rumor?

You will see from the number of posts that I have submitted that I am not one for sitting day after day in front of my computer submitting posts just for the hell of it.
On this occasion I was responding to somebody's enquiry about 4Forces. On that same day I had heard a RUMOR, yes a RUMOR from two quite unconnected sources that another organization in the Bournemouth area were having problems. I was not offered any further detail, THEY WERE RUMORS!! However, quite a coincidence that I should hear both of them on the same day and from totally unconnected sources. I mentioned this in my 4Forces post to see if it provoked a response from any other people that may have also heard something. IT DID! The very next post!

The subject of trainee pilots potentially losing money through no fault of their own is one that is very close to my heart as someone who in my dim and distant past paid up front for a full course of flight training and lost it all due to the overnight disappearance of the FTO (That was 20 years ago) it took me 10 years to recover from that experience.

Let me clarify my posting.
It was a RUMOR that I heard-NOTHING MORE.
I have no detail (at this time) but if I subsiquently do, I will advise you.
If anybody else can clarify the situation one way or the other, I urge you to do so.

By the way, the organization that everybody else seems to be refering to is one that I have heard numerous complementary reports about and infact (despite the twisted imagination of SCROGGS) is an organization that I have reccommended to numerous students!

There were RUMORS about SECOAT and they went bust.

There were RUMORS about PPSC and they went bust.

There were RUMORS about 4Forces and they went bust.

There were RUMORS about MICROSOFT and they seem to be doing quite well!

A RUMOR is just that, A RUMOR! Sometimes they are accurate and sometimes they are not!

If the PPRUNE is no longer the forum for rumors then what is??

On a final note, I object to receiving personal threats in my E-Mail from SCROGGS (The Forum Moderator????) along with allegations that I might be trying to obtain some sort of pecuniary advantage from this issue!

SCROGGS, I have no idea who you are or what your background is, but you certainly appear to be a nasty piece of work. At least I have your threat and personal accusations confirmed in writing! See you soon!

[As The Prop Turns]

Scroggs/Lightning Ace

Listen mate/s, before you send out wild accusations I suggest you check you got the right thread - especially as I have just picked up a lovely email and then seen the jeer from Ace - nice welcome back to the forum. I do not live in this forum so give me 24 hours to respond heh?

I read from Silver Fox:

Yes it is true.
One of my students called me today and advised me that he had received a letter confirming that 4Forces had indeed ceased trading and that he would not be able to complete his ATPL course. Who will be next? (I don't want to start rhumours but keep a close eye on a well known Bournemouth outfit!!!!!

To which I responded:

I agree with Silver Fox -
Some interesting developments down on the South Coast!

So whats your glib???????

I merely agreed with Silver Fox in that 4 Forces had closed and that there is indeed a question"Who will be next?"

Get your stories straight before you go and attack someone! We are not all meatheads out here trying to start wild rumours, so back off!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[As The Prop Turns]

Scroggs :o

Sorry I implicated you, it seems my email message was from a disgruntled Clowns.

My apologies! I was just so mad I answered a little too quickly! :o

[Clive Hughes]

Looking at this thread, I am very disappointed by the number of people who have - or are intending - to pay up front for a course. ALL flying training companies are at risk of going under at some time so NEVER PAY THE LOT UP FRONT!!!! particularly if they are offering large discounts for doing so. As stated by me for the last ten years and recently on this forum by Alex Whittingham (Bristol Groundschool), for large course costs, always pay by installments and by credit card if possible. You may then be sure that you are protected regardless of whoever you sign up with.

[OneMileHigh]

There's a lot of people out there who are getting very hot and bothered about all this, and with reason in the case of the students who have been left out of pocket and the instructors no redundant. What is needed now is an effort by all concerned to try and turn this around for the benefit of those students.

I know that other schools are certainly not gloating about the demise of PPSC and 4Forces as it sends a collective shiver down the spines of all in this business. Also many of the other schools are bending over backwards to help at little more than cost price. Alex Whittingham for one, and I know that Atlantic Flight Training are approachable, as no doubt are the other schools.

There are still plenty of schools out there. See what they can offer, and check their answers to the question, "what are your long term prospects".

Scroggs, I think you ought to reconsider your response to a fellow Pruner who, at the end of the day was just exercising his right to pass comment on this board, whether one agrees or not.

[scroggs]

Let's get a few things straight here. The failures of 4Forces Aviation and PPSC have, quite naturally, made potential customers of other schools a little jumpy. That's quite understandable, and has generated a couple of threads along the lines of 'is so-and-so school financially stable?'. Of course, it's very difficult for anyone without access to a company's accounts to know the answers to those questions, so no-one really ends up any the wiser. As a result, the threads go round in circles.
However, we are also getting a rash of speculative posts about other schools which, whether deliberately or not, create uncertainty which can very tangibly affect those companies' income. Speculation is not rumour, and harmful speculation is not acceptable here.
What I was getting at in my message to Silver Fox was that his speculative post about 'another Bournemouth operator' is in itself damaging, and, as he appears to be an instructor for another school, could be taken as malicious by the subject(s) of his speculation. That is potentially dangerous legal ground, and I don't want us to go there - partiularly as it is Pprune that is legally liable unless we can identify the poster.
I made no threat to anyone, and I am not doing so now, but I do warn all of you that Prune's rumour network status does not give you carte blanche to say, or imply, what you like about who you like. This is a public message board and that carries legal liabilities and responsibilities. If you abuse us by speculating in a way that could have legal repercussions for us, we will react. If you don't like that, tough. Take your speculation elsewhere.
Edited for late-night typos!

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sometime in the last week I had to damp down specualtion that SFT were going bust on another thread here somewhere. I have dug around the FTO industry and can find nothing to support such rumours.

By phrasing a rumour in vague "Bournemouth based" terms you damage more than just SFT. What about Airbourne school of flying or PAT or the other schools at Bournemouth?!?

I think you'll find that the problems at the moment fundamentally lie with JAA GROUNDSCHOOL providers.

The heinous possibility of someone using this forum to smear a commercial rival NECESSITATES a very firm line from the Moderators. We WILL NOT tolerate malicious underming of schools.

*IF* this means that genuinely posted rumours by well intentioned PPRuNe'rs occassionally get scrubbed then SO BE IT. Negative unsubstantiated rumours about a FTO is uniquely damaging. This is one of the reasons we require someone actual name before letting such posts stand.

Scroggs was absolutely correct in his action. Action I would have taken had I reached the thread first.

Everybody just chill a little please.

WWW

[TheSilverFox]

Scroggs.


Rumour:-

General talk or hearsay of doubtfull accuracy.

Current or unverified statement or assertion.


If those two definitions do not accurately describe the nature of this site(or the comment that I made), then I suggest that a change of name should be considered to avoid the potential liability mentioned in your post

[Ivan Ivanovich]

I think what the Moderators are trying to get across here is that there is a difference between rumour and libel.

Libel can and does ruin lives. All right, this is a rumour network and rumours can also be libelous. But I think we need to exercise some responsibility when we post our rumours.

[scroggs]

Fox,
would I get you to defend us in court on the basis of your definition? No chance. Look up libel and slander and, while you're at it, check out the legal liabilities of those who publish anonymous bulletin boards. If, after that, you are still wondering why we are sensitive to this sort of thing then you are less intelligent than I'm still prepared to give you credit for.
Let me put it simply: if you anonymously say, or imply, 'I think Wonder Planes Aviation is on dodgy ground' on this board, without including justification, it is legally Danny Fyne and the rest of us moderators that are liable if in fact that company is in good health and takes exception to any suggestion otherwise on Pprune.
As we all run Pprune in our spare time from professional aviation, and without payment, we are naturally keen to avoid anything which might have severe financial consequences for us and our families.
Of course you, under your cloak of anonimity, run no such risk. That is why we insist that any posters of potentially damaging, slanderous, or libellous 'rumour' provide us with both their real identities and contact details and the source of the rumour. You are, of course, aware of this, as you signed up to the rules of this site when you joined.
Like I say, you are not at liberty (in any walk of life) to say what you like about who you like. Responsibility is a heavy burden, and we aren't shouldering it alone.