Full stuck left pedal!

[Steve76]

Just wondering how many of us out there have ever practiced or been unlucky enough to have to deal with this emergency.

I met an instructor the other day who routinely tests his pilots with this and additionally doesn't believe in power recovery autos. Often for PPC's they are required to deal with jammed collective as well. I think it is really quite incredible to see this all done.
Personally I have never practice jammed collective or completely stuck left pedal. Like all of us, I have no qualms about landing a partial LH or RH jam but to see these guys do a full left is something unique.
His pilots have renamed the "stuck left pedal" to "completely NO right pedal":D

It seems this level of attention and quality of training is becoming a thing of the past. I think that his pilots must be the "highest" trained guys flying VFR that I have met. The minimums for a PPC usually run close to 10hrs. Seems unaffordable to me but what a refreshing change to see an operator investing such time into his guys to the benefit of them and the company.

Our average IFR renewal only arrives to about 5hrs training generally with the VFR component, confines and hover exit tossed in for good measure.

[John Bicker]

You did train somewhere I hope. What's the big deal about autorotation to the ground? Have been taught, practised and demonstrated the "stuck left pedal" scenario which is not taught in many places.

As for "full" left pedal - would like to see that. Care to elaborate on the "full" left pedal technique. Apologies to the French equipment viewers.

The left pedal technique I am aware of involves in essence an increase in power and then gentle reduction in RRPM as the TR becomes less effective at a lower RPM. You kind of have to be there thing. It does involve no more pedal than you would care to normally execute in the first place.

[What Limits]

One of the Operators I work for does this every six months for the OPC. On an MD 902 Explorer with NOTAR and VSCS, I can tell you that this is as much exitement as anyone needs in a lifetime! But with traning and a certain level of expectation it is survivable.

In a former incarnation, I used to teach this in a 412 EP simulator and found it quite benign, as long as you follow the guidlines in the RFM.

[TomBola]

Routine with the last 2 operators I have flown for - except that with my present operator we fly Eurocopter equipment, so do right pedal. Fairly benign in the Bell 412 as 'What Limits' says. Are you talking about power recovery autos in singles or twins? All the companies I have worked for had compulsory full engine-offs in singles, but many aircraft have an RFM prohibition on deliberate engine-off landings for training.

[Steve76]

Thanks for the opening snide remark John Boy,
I have done engine off auto's plenty of times. Th gist of this thread is that it is becoming increasingly rarer to find operators who take this much attention to detail. Most are more concerned about the potential for tears during a training exercise than bringing a pilot up to his/her ultimate potential.
As for the left (power) pedal exercise it is completely full left, to the floor, no further to push left pedal. Please reread the original post if that did not seem too clear for you.

The trick is very shallow powered approach and a well timed throttle reduction (B206) to overpitch to a landing.
As for the stuck collective that is another story.

The only reason I though this may be interesting to you all, is due to the fact that his company pilots who average from 3000 to 12000hrs are all overwelmed and surprised to experience these problems. I wonder if they have been trained before?

[KENNYR]

As the QHI, I made sure that all the pilots in the Sqn were competent in this skill. At the time we were using the Scout so it was a very gentle, shallow approach and prudent use of throttle at the last, to accomplish a virtual zero speed landing.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

For what purpose and to what end would we practise a full left (power) pedal situation except to intentionally incur ridiculously high risk? Can one of the so-called "experts" in here give me ONE example of how a 206 (or any ship with an unboosted t/r) might find itself in such a predicament?

Some instructors are fond of showing off their expertise. "Let me show you how good I am!" Maybe...*maybe* mind you it might result in the student becoming more proficient in the aircraft, but I doubt that it's a given. So why train for something that will likely never occur? ...Except to play, of course, which is inexcuseable and needlessly risks my machine.

If I ever heard of one of my instructors requiring or even demonstrating such a maneuver, I assure you he'd be sacked on the spot!

[Xnr]

To me it all depends on the aircraft type.....some have way more left pedal authority that others....obviously the more pedal authority they have the more serious your emergency.

[t'aint natural]

When I did my last flying instructor renewal seminar, the eleven rotary pilots present (of vastly differing skill levels) were asked who had had engine failures, and who had had tail rotor control problems. Two had experienced engine failure, but five had had tail rotor control difficulties of various types. It was agreed that in the PPL world, we should try not to concentrate on the former at the expense of the latter.

[helmet fire]

I am firmly with XNR here - it depends upon aircraft type. Two examples to demonstrate - a UH-1H and a B212.

The UH-1H is operating at almost full left pedal for most high AUW hovers, even at sea level and requires very small main RRPM bleed to cause the tail rotor to lose authority. You can generally achieve a left pedal stuck full forward landing at high AUW just by beeping down - let alone reducing throttle. Worth practicing as it is a pedal position that is often reached and can be practiced with little risk to the airframe when kept below 30 kias with full pedal deflection.

The 212 is a different kettle of fish. At sea level, it is my opinion that you would be unlikely to be able to bleed off enough main RRPM (until you crashed due to this) to cause the tail rotor to lose enough authority with a full forward case. Particularly if fitted with a "mixing unit" downstream of the jam like some of the IFR birds have. Thus I believe practicing this is overstressing the airframe at low DA's, it is a much higher risk manouevre than the UH-1H because of the main RRPM bleed required (always outside of the aircraft operating limitations) and is a considerably rarer event due to the different tail rotor pitch control mechanisms and the significantly less time spent with full left pedal applied - very rare at sea level. You can practice a left pedal forward case to get the procedures down pat without going to the extreme. Then again, these concerns dont necessarily apply at higher DA's (at least over 5000 ft).

Such training can therefore be justifiable and good for the pilot confidence, manipulative skills, and emergency management, but it is not justifiable in all aircraft types. As usual, this question comes down to your assesment of "acceptable risk", and that is a very subjective term on this forumn!

:D

[KENNYR]

PPRuNe Fan.............I think you will be on the losing end of this argument. May I ask whether you are an owner or CFI? One cannot, I repeat CANNOT practice emergencies enough. If you are the unlucky one who experiences this problem and screws up the emergency what will you say then "If any of my instructors dont teach this from now on they will be fired". I personally would not work for a company with that "head in the sand" attitude. You fire me for practicing emergencies and you will find yourself at the wrong end of a "wrongful dismissal" lawsuit.

Helmet........Very good answer!

[Av8r]

I agree with PPRUNE FAN#1, when the hell would you EVER have full left pedal in, and then have it stick there?
If you require full left pedal in any manoeuvre, you shouldn’t be doing it.
This appears to be one-upmanship on the part of overzealous instructors.

An example, double asymmetric engine failure practise in a 707, just for fun, we’ll throw in a rudder hydraulic failure as well…..guess how that ended up.
I feel this sort of practice is along similar lines.
Great stuff for interest's sake in the sim after you've finished everything else, but definitely not in the field.

[helmet fire]

I agree with PPRUNE FAN#1, when the hell would you EVER have full left pedal in, and then have it stick there?

AV8r: I think Pfan was asking about non boosted aircraft like the 206, but scince you did not distinguish, I will assume you are asking about all aircraft.

The first question is "Can the tail rotor controls jam?" I hope that you would acknowledge that there is a (albiet VERY rare) possibility that it can happen in just about any helicopter. So, acknowledging it is possible to "stick there" brings us to when would we have full left pedal in?

Ever flown a 206, 205, 212, 412, BK117, an AS355, an AS350 or an EC120? I have reached full power pedal in each of these aircraft at one time or another. Therefore you have the possibility of pedal sticking AND the possibility of having full pedal deflection at one time or other. Lets just hope like buggry that the they dont happen together. :eek:
That answer your question?


If you require full left pedal in any manoeuvre, you shouldn’t be doing it.

Why??? See above.

BTW, whilst I do not find fault with your 707 comments, I dont think it applies here. Each emergency practice requires a risk assesment - is it worth the risk? How can I minimise or control the risk? As I said earlier - I think this is subjective, but in the case of the 707 I think the more predominant causes were that ther was no risk assessment applied, there was no "corporate knowledge" within the organisation that would have enabled risk mitigation measures to be applied, and there was no standardised approach to the exercise. The fact that it had been practiced many times in the past proved that it was not a manouevre that is gauranteed to fail - but that it could be performed if the risks were managed properly. Remember that landings can be stuffed up too, but the risks of not landing are too severe not to attempt it!

Post the 707 accident the RAAF deemed it an unacceptable risk to continue training for this emergency in the aircraft - but prior to that, and despite several similar overseas accidents, they deemed it an acceptable risk. But that's why we all read crash comics and this forum, so we can learn from others mistakes and consistently develop and adapt things like our risk assesment of these sort of emergencies' without having to have the risk come and kick us in the ar$e. Your determination of the risk is yours to make (and Pfan too!).

[Fortyodd]

Maybe I'm the unlucky one then, having had not one but two incidences of jammed pedals - both in the Lynx and both due to mechanical problems. The first as a fairly new front seat crewman, (where all I could do was tighten my harness and the only damage occuring during the ensuing run on was to a Cricket pitch), and the second as a more experienced Captain. (This time a zero-zero landing provided the answer). Where I was particularly fortunate was in having a training system that had a simulator and staff with much more experience than I who were prepared to pass on their own extensive experiences and, perhaps more importantly, allow me to F*** up my own early attempts at sorting it out in the simulator where only my pride could be dented. Out here in the wilds of civilian flying, I do not have the benefit of the simulator to get it wrong safely and, as most owners/operators are reluctant to allow practice emergencies to be flown "to the ground", I have to admit, I do feel less prepared than I used to be in dealing with emergencies.
Any emergency practice is worthwhile, make the most of it and learn from it.
Experience may be the best teacher - but experience is something you don't usually get until just after you needed it!!:)

[Cyclic Hotline]

The following SafeCom (http://www.aviation.fs.fed.us/safecom/psearchone.asp?ID=27) demonstrates precisley how anything can happen! If you ever meet the pilot that this occured to and hear his account of this (after a few beers) it is an eye opener. The report is very typically dry and factual, the actual sequence of events was incredible!

Incidentally the distraction that caught his eye, was a lead plane that continued a descent through heavy smoke after the tanker aborted the drop due to a total lack of visibility!


" The pilot was decending toward the surface of a lake for another bucket fill. While on short final transitioning to vertical reference, something caught the pilot's attention in side the cockpit. At about this same time, with approximately 15 knots of forward ground speed, he felt an abrupt tug on the aircraft. He immediately went to vertical reference to see the bucket full of water in the lake back behind the aircraft. He lowered the collective and applied aft cyclic to level the aircraft. The helicopter began an uncommanded left turn. He attempted to stop the turn by applying right pedal pressure, but the tail rotor pedals were jammed with about 1/2 left pedal. He applied power to stop the turn, released the 50 foot longline and bucket with the electrical release, and attempted to fly the helicopter and regain controlled flight. He recieved a radio call from helicopter 99R saying that he had "smoke" comming from the bottom of his aircraft. He looked into the outside mirror and saw fuel pouring out of the area around the cargo hook. He lowered the collective to attempt an emergency landing in a yard below, but he began to turn left again. He reapplied collective pitch to stop the turn and headed for Flagler County Airport which was about 1 mile to the east. He called the helibase at the airport and told them that he was inbound with and inflight emergency. The helibase manager called back and said crash rescue had been notified and was ready. The pilot elected to make an approach to a closed runway so he would not "tie up" the active runway. As he started his approach to land, the helicopter again tried to turn left. He aborted the approach and made a go-around. He then set up a steeper than normal approach and began rolling the throttles back. He terminated the approach to a hover and set the aircraft down in a level attitude. He then shut down the engines, turned off the electrical and exited the aircraft without futher incident. "

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Some of you blokes are really, truly messed up. To advocate the practising of stuck-FULL-left pedal emergencies is just insane, especially at low d.a.'s. It's just not going to happen, lads.

Of course we practise stuck-pedals, but we do it realistically in the modes they'll most "probably" happen. Which in itself is a stretch, because the number of incidents of stuck-pedals in 206's is scant. To say that the pedals "might" get stuck, and they "might" just get stuck at full travel so we better train for that is just ridiculous.

If you want to go out and risk your machine by practising for an emergency that will likely NEVER occur, be my guest. Just don't do it in my machine(s). Save the hero-test-pilot stuff for guys like Shawn Coyle.

[helmet fire]

PooFAN,

Why not take your hand off it long enough to read what was posted?:p :p

Says some pretty similar stuff to what you are ranting about.

blah blah blah......low DA's..... unlikely to happen...not always appropriate...risk Vs gain.....own risk assesment...... blah blah blah.....

all been said previously. Blah.

:rolleyes:

[weedflier]

If something can go wrong, it will. All too often, when things go wrong in aviation they are not exactly the things for which we practise. However, practising for some of the more unusual things which might happen, should at least open our minds to thinking about how to deal with things other than just the 'standard' emergencies. I hope I'm not a passenger with PPF#1 if he ever has to deal with something that he considers out of the ordinary. A significant proportion of the world's helicopter fleet (and before you ask, I have no idea whatsoever what that proportion may be :D ) spends a lot of its time flying at high DA's with low power margins and high pedal inputs being the norm at high masses during take-off and landings. Don't restrict your thinking only to flying passengers around onshore or offshore at low DA's - that's not what a lot of helicopter flying is about.

[Yoho]

One would think that having the knowledge of how to get out of situations or at the very least make the best of a bad one would be an absolute. To not want to know, regardless of the chances of it happening, would be totally ignorant, irresponsible, and unprofessional. My .02$.

Cheers

[Shawn Coyle]

It's worthwhile looking at a few things.
First of all, when can the emergency happen? For the Jet Ranger, there is no hydraulics to the tail rotor, and the design is such that nothing will throw on maximum pitch (i.e. left pedal). So it's unlikely that it will just happen in the cruise. Which is a good thing, because someone putting in maximum left pedal at high airspeed stands the chance of putting in so much flapping on the main rotor that you are severely reducing your safety margin for mast bumping. If you are going to practice this emergency, then do it from the high power (main and tail rotor) demanded condition (i.e. hover).
Secondly, what is the easiest way to determine the cause of the problem and decide what should be done about it. There are probably a thousand ways to look at this, and I don't want to get into a discussion of how to do it. But there is really very little guidance out there on how to identify, for certain, the cause and subsequent actions. Training is certainly needed, but it needs to be safe as well as realistic.
Other machines may have different characteristics, symptoms etc. Know your machine and what these are.

[Thomas coupling]

Helmet Fire: Concur in every respect, having been there.

PP#1: Christ, man sit on the fence why don't you. Are you familiar with tail rotor control problems, when they can happen and what to do about them? I hope for the public's sake, you aren't a company boss who has sweeping statements similar to this littered throughout your entire AOC.

PS: can't you change that confusing 'handle' of yours:)

[Steve76]

It would seem that those who have operated helicopters outside of the circut area, agree that this is an unusual but not impossible problem to encounter.

I certainly think it has merit and that training for it, not only produces a very very good pilot but also allows the pilots to fly with an increased level of confidence in their ability. Done during training and taken to the "edge" with an experienced instructor means there is no hesitiation in your reply when someone asks you "can you handle a stuck left pedal?" Anything less than full left is a doddle.

Its the same with full on autos, is it not?
The student knows that if he has space and time to set it up; he has great odds of saving himself the pax and the machine. In my mind it is the "been there done that...not sweat" thought process. It is a gamble to fly around without training in full-on (engine @ idle) autos.
How much does an accident cost?.... a heck of a lot more than training to avoid it.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

How much does an accident cost?.... a heck of a lot more than training to avoid it.

What if that accident happens while training?