LH pilots intoxicated

[flybonanza]

Local news tells that on 20 Dec in Helsinki two Lufthansa pilots were removed from their B737 cockpit just prior to departure for Germany by the airport police and taken for blood tests. The test was positive and the pilots are no more employed by LH.

Too much of this kind of news recently. Why? Is the system today better at detecting such or are there more drinkers in the cockpit? Bad for us all and personally for the idiots involved, quite a career loss not to mention their megabuck income cut. :(

[AA717driver]

I think there's a lot more stress now than we realize. I know my consumption has increased and I am very careful about the FAR's.

But it's there.TC

[Tcas climb]

AIRLINE PILOTS FACE JAIL
Two airline pilots face jail after being caught drinking alcohol before a flight.

They were given blood tests after crew members alerted police shortly before the Lufthansa flight was due to take off from Helsinki in Finland.

Prosecutors said the tests showed some alcohol in the pilots' blood, but declined to say how much.

"Under Finnish law, they could face either a fine or imprisonment of up to two years," prosecutors said.

International regulations prohibit pilots and flight attendants from flying within eight hours of consuming alcohol, while Lufthansa, along with most other airlines, has set a twelve hour restriction.

Lufthansa spokesman Michael Lamberty said the pilots, both German, had left the airline after getting the blood test results.

"In this profession, you can't get away with this. We did not fire them, but they left the company. They won't fly for Lufthansa anymore," Mr Lamberty said.

[Anthony Carn]

AA717driver raises one key issue.

However, not only is stress now much more severe than as little as twenty years ago, but the whole package of flight time limitations, rest periods, disturbance of sleep patterns, lack of provision of crew food, suitability of overnight accomodation, treatment of staff, career dislocation, type conversion workload, attitude of co-workers, forcible geographic relocation or commuting due forcible relocation, professional liability, danger, frequent but unrealistic competency checks, frequent medical checks etc etc all adds up against even the most resilient of human beings.

Some of the above are unavoidable, but a great many are not, provided that Aviation Authorities recognise the fact and take action to legislate in favour of professional pilots.

BTW, closer to topic, alchohol levels above regulation limits is TOTALLY unacceptable. Becoming teetotal is the easiest solution, and should become mandatory for all pilots, commercial or not, IMHO !

[fireflybob]

There are plenty of ways of "de-stressing" without having to resort to booze.

Why can't the airlines be more pro-active in informing and educating their crews about alternative relaxation techniques?

We also have to realise that the culture in our society is to use alcohol to overcome our challenges, witness the "soaps" on TV etc which portray the "glamour" of alcohol.

Pilots have a very responsible job and I tend to go with the post above that states that teetotal is probably the best way to go. Unfortunately there are some companies(this is no critcism of LH) were the drinking culture is endemic and any allusions to teetotal would be laughed at.

[M.Mouse]

Becoming teetotal is the easiest solution

Soulution to what? A few individuals that have no ability to control their drinking?

I drink when I feel like it. I may not have a drink for a week or more. I have no problem either with or conforming with the rules.

Sounds like a complete over simplification to me.

Unfortunately there are some companies(this is no critcism of LH) were the drinking culture is endemic and any allusions to teetotal would be laughed at.

What a sweeping and unsubstantiated assertion. I have worked for three and have friends in several other airlines, both in the UK and elsewhere.

I think your statement is tosh. I have as much evidence for saying that as you have for making the statement.

[BarryMonday]

Someone out there will know for sure but I think a breath test on the ramp has been a possibility in Helsinki for a long time? Part of the local law, I understood.

TeeTotal for pilots is complete nonsense, if pilots, of all people, cannot show greater self control than average then there is no hope, IMHO. So if TeeTotal were the case then presumably we can expect it to apply right across the spectrum of people who have responsibility for other people's lives and well being?
Pilots, Cabin Crew, Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, Train Drivers, Bus Drivers etc. etc. The list is endless.

[Devils Advocate]

Well that's gotta be one of the stupidest ideas I've heard on PPRuNe for a while – those promoting this sound a lot like some of those soddin’ teetotal religious types, about whom the world would be a much better place if only they could just sit down and share a joke over a nice pint of beer, just like mates - mind you, one can be pretty certain that the pubs in Afghanistan are crap, compared to those in Buckinghamshire !

Indeed if I stopped imbibing it'd put dozens out of work at my local boozer and brewery – one might see it as veritably something of a social responsibility to keep them gainfully employed, and wherein one does ones best ! - plus I must say that these new Internet Pubs are just the ticket........ "Another pint of your finest please landlord !"

[Few Cloudy]

They weren't just caught at the gate, according the NZZ (Zürich) - they were seen by ground personnel drinking in bars "before the flight". How long before wasn't stated.

Hard decision for the ground crew but the correct action. To my discredit I once flew with a captain who was under the influence and I noticed it. What did I do? Nothing. As I mentioned in another thread, we need to report more.

[Robert Vesco]

Becoming teetotal is the easiest solution, and should become mandatory for all pilots, commercial or not, IMHO ! Sure Anthony Carn....and the easiest way to improve airline safety is to outlaw flying all together ! Gimme a break ! I agree with the rest of your post (the stress of flying) but don´t you oversimplify things a little bit by making such statements ?

I´m actually a bit supprised to find out that it was a LH crew that got busted as LH does not have a reputation as a ´party airline.´ They also have a lot going for them at the moment, as LH seems to be doing great financially (especially compared to Swissssss :D ).

[707]

The pilot's should both have thier licences ripped up by authorities for drinking before flying, they should be stopped and should never set foot into a plane which they have responcibilities to fly. The cabin crew should be awarded greatly for stopping what might have been an air disaster with serious loss of life. Well Done cabin crew and you should be proud, what ever anyone say's about the inccident.

[saudipc-9]

Of course we all know that cabin crew :never set foot in the galley after a few belts too many:rolleyes:
These two deserve to lose their jobs but lets not go too far with the cabin crew thing.

[B Sousa]

Loss of License for stupidity, if nothing else. Folks know the rules yet they seem to forget the Money, Careers, lifestyle they are about to lose. All for a couple Brewskis.......Yes I think Stupidity is the Violation.

[Lu Zuckerman]

So if TeeTotal were the case then presumably we can expect it to apply right across the spectrum of people who have responsibility for other people's lives and well being?

When I was a contract manager on the Tornado working in Munich (MBB) on several days of the week many of the engineering staff would go out for lunch. In the process of the noontime meal they would consume several liters of beer and copious amounts of Kirsch Wasser (Cherry water) which is extremely potent. Most were in a state of inebriation when they returned to work and I wonder if they were competent enough to perform their duties especially the stress analysts and the designers.

In the company cafeteria they sold both beer and wine with no restrictions on either. In the morning they would have a break and the engineers would go down to the company store and pick up several beers and some meat, cheese and bread and consume it all at their desks. They even had beer machines in the hall so you could drink a beer at your desk at any time. Alcohol is pervasive in Germany and in Bavaria beer is considered to be a food and kids can drink it at the table with their parents. Some of these kids grow up to be pilots or engineers or any of the other trades listed in the above post.

:eek:

[IcePack]

This is the 2nd Helsinki incident I know of (Not LH) It would seem their breathalizer gadget is extremely sensitive so be carefull out there. As I have posted on this site before: When I started flying some of the skippers used to have a whisky on the last sector. We were not all crashing every five minuits, Nore were Air France. who served a SMALL bottle of wine with their crew meals up to about 8 years ago.:p

[Captain104]

Your amazing report about lifestyle in Bavaria warmed our hearts and is a valuable contribution in this thread. You brave man:
How could you survive those awfull habits where little kids(potential pilots) are trained to drink lakes of beer plus Kirschwasser daily because it is considered as regular food?
It was the right time to make this realistic and true picture known to the public. Thank you so much and have a nice day.

BTW: You forgot to mention a Kuckucksuhr, a Jodeldance and eins zwei suffa! :D :D :D

[Lu Zuckerman]

Many years ago when I was in the USCG many of our pilots had been in WW 2 operating seaplanes over the North Atlantic on submarine patrols. The constant danger and the isolation resulted in a lot of drinking. During my tenure in CG aviation many of our pilots used to carry a bottle of whiskey in their nav kits when we were going for a long SAR over water. They referred to it as "engine smoothener." On one occasion I flew with our engineering officer. His nickname was Shaky but I never knew why. That is, until this flight. We flew to Buffalo NY to provide supplies to one of our helicopters that was being used to pluck fisherman off of the ice in the Niagara river prior to their going over the falls.

The truck was late and the weather was very cold. Shaky got a little anxious and went into the Admin building to visit the bar but it was closed. Slowly, he sobered up and then I knew why they called him Shaky. During our flight to Floyd Bennett field in Brooklyn, NY I did most of the flying as I did on our return to our home base.

Many of the pilots were alcoholics and were transferred to other bases mostly in Alaska. It was a sad state of affairs and I am sure it does not exist in today’s Coast Guard.

:cool:

[Pegasus77]

Well Mr. Zuckerman,

Guess you never flew to Scandinavia and observed what and how much the pax are drinking, or did you ever fly to Russia? Ever been to Italy? Visited a pub in England? Saw a real French family at dinner? Spanish wine with tapas?

Please stay away from a discussion if you've nothing but rubbish to say.

P77

[flybonanza]

"This is the 2nd Helsinki incident I know of (Not LH) It would seem their breathalizer gadget is extremely sensitive so be carefull out there."

I am sure what IcePack means is never drink if you intend to fly. It's never a question of will I miss a breathalyzer or not or are they sensitive. I am sure in Helsinki they are just as sensitive as at any other airport in Europe and US.

I recall that the previous such stupid incident was a UK cargo crew in Helsinki about a year ago. I hope such incidents are reported at every airport and that unannounced checks should be performed at all airports to all crew members in a similar way as in traffic to drivers.

[Max Angle]

It's not all that long ago that Air France guys had a little table wine with dinner. Sounds like a bloody good idea to me, wonder if the CAA are game!.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Pegasus 77


Please stay away from a discussion if you've nothing but rubbish to say.

First of all I was not trying to excuse the flight crew from violating a standing order issued by the certification authorities and their own airline. The point I was trying to make or at least intended to make is this: When a person grows up drinking in an uncontrolled manner he/she may have the feeling that they can handle it on their job. This goes for pilots or any other occupation. Alcoholics are in most cases high functioning individuals when under the influence and many of their associates are totally unaware that the individual is stoned. It is when they are not stoned that their secret is out. That is why I used the illustration about the Coast Guard pilots. I have worked in England, France, Italy and Holland and in most cases in these countries they either consumed large amounts of beer or wine because hard spirits are too expensive. I used the MBB example because I worked there. I also worked at another German company and they had beer machines but most of the people either ate in the cafeteria which did not serve beer or wine or, they went home for lunch so the problem was not so bad.

My statement to you is stop being so defensive.



:D

[arcniz]

Pegasus 77 - Acting more like the posterior end of a winged horse, methinks.

Your 'nothing but rubbish' comment is a bit over the top.

Although not quite as ancient as LU, I recall encounters - in times way past- with a few pilots who unapologetically drank their courage, and I saw many occasions where moderate consumption of beer and perhaps some schnapps was normal, open, and uncontroversial at training fields (and larger airports) in Europe. A flirty young bar maid was the chief attraction for arrivals at one sweet little country field I remember fondly from way back when. The aerodrome was out in the middle of nowhere, but it did a great business, nonetheless.

P.S. I do not - in any way, shape, or form- condone the combination of drinking and flying (or driving). Times have changed.

[Burger Thing]

Captain104

How could you survive those awfull habits where little kids(potential pilots) are trained to drink lakes of beer plus Kirschwasser daily because it is considered as regular food?

Well... Your Profile is showing Interests: aviation safety, winetastings .... :D :D :D

Tut mir leid, zu komisch, konnte nicht widerstehen. Schoenen Ruhestand!

[Anthony Carn]

I appear to have touched a few raw nerves with my simple suggestion that all pilots be teetotal.

fireflybob suggests that the drinking culture is endemic in some companies; I would suggest that this probably applies to certain countries, based upon my observations.

M.Mouse -- Soulution to what? A few individuals that have no ability to control their drinking?
Yes. One individual is all it takes to cause a drink-induced accident.



BarryMonday -- TeeTotal for pilots is complete nonsense, if pilots, of all people, cannot show greater self control than average then there is no hope, IMHO.
As a pilot of a few decades, I can confirm that my colleagues are, broadly speaking, no different to any typical slice of the population, including their ability to self control.

So if TeeTotal were the case then presumably we can expect it to apply right across the spectrum of people who have responsibility for other people's lives and well being?
Pilots, Cabin Crew, Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, Train Drivers, Bus Drivers etc. etc. The list is endless.
Excellent suggestion; thank you ! If a surgeon was about to carry out, say, a triple heart bypass on you, what would you prefer that his and the rest of his team's blood alchohol content be ?

Lu Zuckerman -- your description of a day at MBB brings back memories of my visits there. Afternoon meetings certainly suffered ! Your other comments are an excellent illustration of the problem.

[Devils Advocate]

What problem ?

I haven't got a drink problem - I spill most of it ! :D

[noblues]

Helsinki (Finland) has a strict 'no drink within 12 hours of flying' ......

It doesn't matter if you have no alcohol in your blood when you report, if someone can prove you did consume alcohol within 12 hours you are guilty.

That person could be one your passengers, an airport employee etc who saw you in a bar drinking within 12 hours ....

Its just not worth your licence ....... stick to the rules, no one will ever give you any mercy with ref. flying and drinking, and you owe it to your passengers ....

Would you go for an operation if you knew the surgeon had been drinking within 12 hours ???

[M.Mouse]

Yes.


We are developing the US habit of trying to make life entirely risk free. Life is not risk free and never will be. I am sick to death of being nannied and legislated to the point where I am not sure if I am allowed to break wind in public anymore.

I have met one or two sober pilots that might have been safer had they had a drink or two!:D :D

Finally if anyone believes that changing the rules further will decrease the present minimal number of incidences is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Banning handguns in the UK after the tragedy of Dunblane and Hungerford had a dramatic affect didn't it?. All innocent handgun owners lost their guns and er......the incidence of illegal handgun usage and ownership continued unabated. UK gun crime doubled since 1997.

Same with drink drivers. The limit can be zero but those that have a problem will not stay within the limit whatever it is.

I vote to get away from the nanny culture and its associated headlong rush towards wanting compensation for every misfortune that occurs in one's life.

[Celtic Emerald]

Ha ha ha

All pilots should be teetotalers. I just love it!!! I'm surprised ya didn't get some warning points for that. :) Kaptin M, Slasher and probably 99% of the pilots who post here not to mention the ones that don't might as well hand in their epaulettes if that was to be the case.
I mean everyone knows I don't touch a drop & even I wouldn't ave come out with that (I value my life) :eek: Come to think of it all you boozy pilots should move over & let sober little me at the controls. :D

Emerald

Gone off for a good laugh :D

[fireflybob]

I would never advocate that all pilots become teetotal.

However, it is an option which is worthy of consideration from an individual point of view.

I would respect the right of an individual crew member to imbibe legal "mind altering" substances (within the rules) so long as that person respects my right to abstain.

It is interesting to see how this debate has become polarised.

[maxalt]

As a devotee of the Mystic Church of Oenology I am outraged at this insult! Give up Wine? I'll have you know that it is through blessed wine that I commune with my maker...how dare you demand our church breaks its fundamental tennet. Are you a racist? A bigot? A sectarian anti-Oenologist?
I'm seeing our lawyer in the morning!

[Bof]

The more I read these threads, the more I wonder about some of my younger brethren. Often, battle lines are drawn up, cudgels are drawn and the battle starts with all it's verbal abuse, when in reality we all subscribe to the same belief.

Take this booze question. We all agree that anyone flouting the bottle to throttle rules, whether they be 8 hours, 12 hours or 24 hours (depends on the quantity consumed) should be shown the door. Everybody knows the penalty so shouldn't be surprised when the large tome gets thrown at them.

When folks talk about the days of yore and the 'goings on' remember it was a different ball game. Way back, before the breathalizer, we would climb into our MGs or Morris 8s smashed as rats after a thrash in the local pub, and wend our drunken way home. If lucky we got there unscathed, and more to the point hadn't hit anybody else.

As a general rule society smiled indulgently and shook their heads at the foolishness of youth. Even the custodians of the law, with a quick "Allo, Allo, Allo - 'Ad a bit too much to drink 'ave we sir" might send you on your way.

As someone said, Air France and certainly the French Air Force used to partake of a small bottle of the red stuff when flying, and it was always served with lunch in the mess.

Times have changed, and the world(at least in some areas has gained a bit more sense). Society has moved on. When the drink driving rules first came in, there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from imbibers as a whole who thought the authorities were taking a bloody liberty!! Now, even if some haven't stopped drinking and driving completely - everyone is aware of the consequences.

Think back to flying in the 50s. Think of the weather we operated in. No limits for landing (in the RAF anyway). You either got in or you chickened out and went some where else. Diversion fuel? We've got enough for a couple more circuits. On other threads Flatus and others have joined me in reminiscing over the good old days of flying. In many respects, they weren't. We had a hell of a lot of fun but we sure lost a lot of people who crashed in ignorance of a lot of the dangers. They didn't necessarily take chances - they just didn't know any better!

So when we see guys getting the boot for infringing, lets not wring our hands in righteous indignation - just be grateful for the huge advancement in flight safety awareness.

Here endeth the lesson - you may now all wake up.

[Lu Zuckerman]

Way back, before the breathalizer, we would climb into our MGs or Morris 8s smashed as rats after a thrash in the local pub, and wend our drunken way home. If lucky we got there unscathed, and more to the point hadn't hit anybody else.

I drove a TR3

:D

[Tan]

Bof

Ah the good old times we did have fun, men were men, we were all made out of steel or so we thought…but alas times have changed…

Be safe out there.

[Blacksheep]

...and while we're at it, what about the infamous "Green Man"? I'm with Lu; Aeroplanes and alcohol don't mix, flying, building or fixing them...

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Celtic Emerald]

Oh Christ Maxalt!!!!

I'm flying with FR on Thursday. I hope for my sake that you're not at the bleedin controls mate pissed or otherwise ;)

Emerald

[Lu Zuckerman]

Ah the good old times we did have fun, men were men, we were all made out of steel or so we thought…but alas times have changed…

In my case, the steel had rusted.

:D

[Tan]

Lu

"In my case, the steel had rusted"

Me too..