If I had to go low level, I'd choose a.... [Archive]

Ali Barber

31st Dec 2002, 13:36

How about a B-1? It would have to be flown by Brits as the Yanks use too much O2 at the low level the operate at.

If they get bounced by a fighter, they light the reheats and run for an hour, then see if he's still there! Once had one ask if he could stay and do some "low level" after the exercise part of the sortie and he would meet us again on the next wave! :confused:

rivetjoint

31st Dec 2002, 13:51

Yes please, a Bone with a full 208,000lbs of fuel on board for me too. Now show me to the valleys please.

Woff1965

31st Dec 2002, 15:04

I saw a table showing the number of 0.5G bumps encountered by various aircraft at low level the Mirage III was the worst with something like 50 0.5g vertical accceleration events a minute.

Not something to fly low in but probably OK if you want to REALLY shake that Martini.

BEagle

31st Dec 2002, 19:43

Actually, having had second thoughts, I think that I'd prefer an Aston Martin DB7 V12 Coupe! British Racing Green with either cream or pale green leather seats - I'm not fussy really.....

Happy New Year to all - probably my last one in HMFC though.

twinboom

31st Dec 2002, 20:12

Surely a THUD (and no I'm not old enough to have flown one - read a lot 'though)

FJJP

31st Dec 2002, 22:08

The Mighty Vulcan. Queen of the skies and unbeatable at low level in the hands of the right crew. Used to regularly beat the pants off the Yanks at LL bombing. Bomb in a bucket a regular feature of this tremendously stable bombing platform - and all that without any of your modern fancy kit, such as fited to the H GR7...(which is dead in the water if ther computer goes 'phut'!)

Woff1965

31st Dec 2002, 23:57

Turn off the computer and use the FORCE.

(PS this only works if your name is Luke)

BlueWolf

1st Jan 2003, 04:45

I've always wondered; why wasn't the F-14 ever developed further as a mud thumper? Big swingy wings, it can go low and slow as well as high and fast.
New engines, avionics, maybe some canards and vectoring....if the Eagle can be continuously reinvented, why not the Tomcat?
Just curious.

Ghostflyer

1st Jan 2003, 06:20

BluntM8,

15E might have a big wing but thats because you can attach 81,000lbs of weight to them including as many rockets as bombs take them 800 miles and then pull 9g. (Not really a low wing loader in the true sense of the word)

The ride is fine even in the hills on windy days. LANTIRN does a perfectly good job in the hills at night, only snag is that with FLIR you can see the rocks coming; ignorance used to be bliss.

More importantly if you then want to pull out of low-level; you can climb into the 30s using 58,000lbs of thrust and then have the best toys in the business to play with.

Ergonomics, avionics, airframe and system wise the F-15E will lead the field until someone actually makes a 4th generation fighter work (When is EF FOC now 201?).

To become an F-15E fan, all you have to do is fly it and operate it. I shudder to think what an RAF squadron could do with the jet if they were to get their hands on it.

If you want ultimate comfort I'd recommend Seat 1J on the 777.

Ghost;)

STANDTO

1st Jan 2003, 11:22

How about a pair of well broken in Brasher GTX Hillmasters, from the Brasher Boot Company, armed with a hip flask of Lagavullin.

Or, if working, a pair of Belville TLS with full goretex sock, armed with an AR15 and optical sight, with a goretex ghillie suit.

BEagle

1st Jan 2003, 11:41

Memo to STANDTO: Delete all except the hip flask of Lagavullin :D

To be consumed once one has arrived courtesy of the DB7 V12!

Happy New Year!!

Grimweasel

1st Jan 2003, 14:27

F15E..

Read the other day in a magazine though, that nearly all the crew who fly in it are sick on most sorties at LL. Can any Eagle drivers verify this?

Can't be as bad as 150ft through Nellis Ranges in a pressurised ally tube with small round windows to look through..Feeling very ill from the delights of Vegas the night before?

The old Typhoon of WW2 days gets my vote. What a beast she was! Ask the gerrie panser crews!!

West Coast

1st Jan 2003, 16:31

Bluewolf
The F14 has air to ground capability. If memory serves me correctly, it was developed in the early to mid 90s. They call it the bombcat also.

L J R

1st Jan 2003, 20:02

Fastest thing in Nth Vietnam - A Thud headdin' South!

.....pity it had a critical field length of 10,000'

KENNYR

1st Jan 2003, 20:16

It all depends on how low you want to go. If its below tree top height then it has to be the Westland Scout AH1. If between tree top height and 250' AGL then it has to be the Westland Scout AH1. If you want air to ground capability, yep, you've guessed it, the Westland Scout AH1 with SS11 missiles and forward mounted GPMGs. Anything above 250' AGL cannot be classed as low level.

LJR........are you kidding.......10,000Ft!!!!!!!!!

Proletarian

1st Jan 2003, 20:35

Sparkvark

Hang some bombs from the wings - jam the bu%8&$ry out of everything on the way in - let 'em go and then jam them all on the way out!!

Coriolanus

Rotorhead

1st Jan 2003, 22:48

Harvard (T6G) one of North American with Pratt and Whitney R-1430-AN-1 nine cylinder radial engine driving and Hamilton two blade constant speed propellor which was

1. Flown through the Pub tent (tent fell down spilling boss`s drink) during a low level "hello" earning the driver a "Vulture". ie cold tea f11k all biscuits with the boss

2. Bounced off the sea on a aspirant contsructors course due to a large swell! Formation leader given hell! Propellor bent, oil cooler gone, leading edge not so good, water like substance tasting of salt still dripping from wing after landing. Lifeguard witness`s who phoned before a/c landed believed to have been partaking of mind altering substances.

3. Bounced off dam by student pilot near end of course whilst formating on friend to impress young ladies, prop bent. Ego`s bent when taken out in helo and shown wires flown under and unseen.

Aeromachi 326 Impala

Bounced off ground a few miles yes miles short of the runway 08 at Port Elizabeth during night appraoach.

Puma SA 330

Bounced off Sea during no light approach to ship at night, brown underpants all round.

Flown through tree during night appch in unfriendly area leading to extended uncomfortable stay without cold beer.

Various types flown through all sorts of wires leading to cold teaetc but the best!

Take one Mirage photo recce type at 50 feet balls to the wall pull up to 1000 feet roll inverted pull hard roll level take photo`s of runway roll inverted pull hard and roll out level again at 50 feet.

Our Jettie goes out to practise while rolling the ext fuel tank comes adrift-uncontrollalable flight followed by miraculous pull out through live monster power lines. Aircraft flies away with bits of power lines and just about every panel welded shut and lands.

Best low level macine is the ALO 3: slow a/c, powerfull engine, fully articulated rotorhead all mean a comfortable ride while everyone else is being bounced.

CONFUSED BUT DETERMINED

Magic Mushroom

1st Jan 2003, 23:57

Bluewolf,
The F-14 has been doing very little else operationaly except dropping bombs for about the last 8 years or so. It's wired for most of the modern toys like LANTIRN, LGB's, JDAM and is particularly useful as an AFAC. It also doesn't need to visit the tanker every 5mins like the girlie Hornet does. It's dropped bombs in BH, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq but it's days are now numbered due to the FA-18F.
However, the F-15E is still FAR and away the most capable all round piece of hardware in the skies. Unparralleled BVR air-air capability, excellent WVR (unparralleled once it gets HMS and AIM-9X), JTIDS, a superb sensor fit, and clearance for almost any air-ground weapon.
Regrettably, I suspect that it will still be embarrasing the Typhoon in another 10 years.
Regards and Happy New Year to all,
M2

Ghostflyer

2nd Jan 2003, 10:00

Grimweasel,

Total tosh I am pleased to say. In my 3 years, I only made 2 studes sick (which is understandable if you've seen me fly) and Jeremy Clarkson had a barfex too The studes were wedges with less than 300 hours total flying on their first air-to-air missions.

One of my buddies was a barfer and gave up the 15E to go to the B2 but he used to barf in the 111 too. In generally, you get such a good view out of the Eagle it is easier to hang onto your lunch than on a lot of other types.

The reason most WSOs chuck is because they are heads in working the systems whilst the jet is maneuvring under g. Nothing per se to do with the ride at low-level. Same goes for any other high performance 2 seat jet. As you know, from your peeks through the port holes, its much easier to keep the lunch down when either you are flying or looking out the jet.

By the way, I didn't know Tin Triangle crews ever left the bar when they were in Vegas!! I thought all that Flag and Giant Voice flying was mythical just like the Loch Ness monster. All the people you talk to had heard stories but had never actually seen the real thing..... ;)

Ghost

STANDTO

2nd Jan 2003, 17:52

or a tunnel. tunnels are good for low level.....

Grimweasel

2nd Jan 2003, 18:36

Ghost,

Thanks for clearing that one up for me. I take it that you love your current frame. You guys must love the LL system over here. Bombing about thru Scotland in your jet! I'd love to go up in one. Why on earth was a back seat ride wasted on that Idiot Clarkson? Made good TV seeing him 'blow chunks' tho!

Re Vegas... well, sometimes we have to leave the bar, drat! All that skimming about waiting for you guys to come and have a pop at us, and usually being very surpsied at how hard it is to shoot down the 'Tin Triangle'!!

Big up the 48th!

The Weasel

mutleyfour

2nd Jan 2003, 21:19

Santa's Sleigh would be good.
Firstly, its never been seen by RADAR or the mark 1 eyeball.
Secondly, My kids tell me it travels faster than you can see.....perfect after a nice respray into Army Green..:D

Ghostflyer

3rd Jan 2003, 05:23

Mutley,

The only problem with Santa's sleigh is that it seems to cost you and I a sh*t load to run! Come to think of it its a bit like Eurofighter.

Ghost

AllTrimDoubt

3rd Jan 2003, 07:08

...a chauffeur driven ministerial jaguar! As a politician these days seems to be about as low as you can go!

;)

rivetjoint

3rd Jan 2003, 08:49

Sorry but don't NORAD track Santa every year on their website?

Another choice for low level would be an MH-53J, yee-ha!

Kolibear

3rd Jan 2003, 13:52

Thrust 2.

Goes like stink, but can't turn.

mutleyfour

3rd Jan 2003, 13:58

Ok then, I obviously can't have santa's sleigh, but what about Thunderbird 2. NOW if thats too expensive I'll have puff the magic dragon!

let em rip guys...........now thats a hercules!

freddoir

3rd Jan 2003, 14:07

For those addicted to the moving of mud, opinion would seem to be that the best thing for flying at low, low level was the Buccaneer (queue the song). Have heard of a good story about an F-3 over the desert and a stray Winnebago.................:)

SASless

3rd Jan 2003, 22:45

I will stick with the real Queen of the Skies....CH-47.....only 150 kts wide open......but when the Gunner walks up to the office and dumps an arm load of rice straw in yer lap and suggests that "enuff is enuff, Skipper!" Seems it was building up on the cargo hook at mid-frame! We used to have to pull up slightly to get enough height to roll the ol' girl into the turns....wouldn't do to go weed whacking with something that expensive.

solotk

5th Jan 2003, 14:54

If we're on the subject of Vietnam era props for mud moving...

A/B-26. What an aeroplane, and certainly my first choice for trailblazing....

DuckDogers

6th Jan 2003, 12:22

Always thought it would have been great to get the chance of an A-6E Intruder trip! Low level at night with NO defensive weapons, what a challenge.

Having read the book on all US air losses in the Vietnam war, Intruder losses were quite low compared to other types!

West Coast

7th Jan 2003, 04:53

Thats because Viet. Gunners fealt sorry for it. Face only a mother could love, but it had one hell of a kick.

NorthernSID

8th Jan 2003, 14:56

To go to war at LL, I'd take my GR4, preferably at night on NVGs.

I've done the GR1 war at LL and survived and have a great respect for the aircraft.

I've sat in an F15E at Vegas and the view is awesome. With that computing power and that fit......

Ghostrider is right. Most RAF aircrew, given an aviator's choice would have traded the GR1 for F15Es anyday. We create havoc at Flag in GR1s, just think what we could do with F15Es!!

For familiarity a GR1/4

In my dreams, an F15E

Marconi Boy

8th Jan 2003, 19:14

If I had to go low level, I'd choose a.....

fighter controller to give me a picture and advice, thus enabling me to defeat whatever the enemy put in front of me.

Thanx for your trade G'day.

singlestranger

8th Jan 2003, 21:11

gotta be happy with that marconiboy, forewarned is forearmed, if you're flying LOW keep your SA HIGH!

Busta

8th Jan 2003, 22:40

F4J, saw 800 one day whilst chasing a Raven.

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

Swingwing

9th Jan 2003, 01:46

No doubt the F15E is the duck's guts these days, but I can't believe that there isn't more support here for the mighty F-111 AardVark!
This is an aircraft that was dropping bridges in North Vietnam when the current crop of plastic fantastics were a gleam in the designer's eye! Throw in Operation El Dorado Canyon (the Libya strike), Desert Storm and so on, aand then consider that nearly 40 years later, in it's present manifestation with the RAAF, it is still delivering the latest PGM's with the same pinpoint accuracy.
As far as low level performance goes, it is just about without peer as far as I can see. I haven't been privileged to fly in Beagles or Vulcans et al, but an F-111 is quite capable of Mach 1.2 (750KIAS +) on the deck, with the fuel to sustain it for a realistic time. Do it in cloud on TFR if necessary, armed with GBU24 and AIM 9, and it would have to be hard to beat, in the comfort stakes if nothing else! They don't call her the Cadillac of the skies for nothing - it's like sitting in your armchair at home. That's only one end of the performance spectrum though. Consider that the same aircraft will also do Mach 2.5 at 60 000 feet and you get some idea of the awesome performance of the beast. Hornet and Viper drivers will criticise it for it's turn rate, sure, but at 6.5g in full blower, you're still talking about a pretty respectable number of degrees per second.

So, taking into account it's sheer longevity, the fact that in many performance departments it still equals or beats today's platforms, and it's proven combat record, I respectfully submit the mighty F-111 as the finest interdictor of the jet age.

Cheers,

Swingwing

Zoom

9th Jan 2003, 09:59

I agree with BEagle that it was a tragedy that the TSR2 (best looker ever!) was 'murdered' by the Labour Government, but I feel that it was a bigger tragedy that the F-111 went the same way a little while later. The TSR2's tiny wing would have rendered it virtually useless for anything other than straight-line strike work, whereas the F-111 would at least have got round some corners and so would have a been a reasonable attack aircraft as well. So I concur with Swingwing's comments above, but do so from a position of having flown neither of these machines, sadly.

Back in the Barrel

9th Jan 2003, 10:14

SwingWing - an excellent reasoned argument and I'm inclined to agree with you for aircraft that are still operational today. Nevertheless, I think that if one was to take all aircraft over the history of aerial warfare and choose the type that at any time outstripped all others in the low-flying department, my choice would have to be the various bomber variants of the ubiquitous De Havilland Mosquito. The aircraft was very clearly streets ahead of any similarly conceived aircraft of its era, was faster than almost anything else around, delivered dumb bombs with the precision of a JDAM and had no defensive armament. In short, it rocked. The Mosquito, and the many roles it carried out in its different guises, can be viewed as the direct ancestor of all the multi-role combat aircraft that were conceived during the Cold War (and nearly all those nominated above). It is perhaps the only aicraft that was conceived as a bomber that made a successful transformation into a fighter, thus confirming it as a true great (Tornado mates take note). And to cap it all, it was made from wood! In its era, it would have been the clear choice of anyone wanting to bomb from low-level. The choice is not so clear today. Vote Mosquito!

A Civilian

9th Jan 2003, 10:52

Your talking about a plane that was only built because they couldnt find enough aluminium to build the proper ones :)

What Limits

9th Jan 2003, 19:03

Why hasn't anyone yet mentioned the Islander?

kmagyoyo

9th Jan 2003, 21:22

Can this be multichoice?

For 'general poling around at 50' like a wildman'; Douglas A4K.
For 'going super at 100' burning sh!tloads of gas'; F-111C
For 'dreams are free' F-15E
For 'when I am a rich airline pilot/win powerball'; P-51D

Kmag

RRAAMJET

10th Jan 2003, 02:19

I'd let Guy Gibson and his crew fly me, I think.....when you look at the terrain around the Mohne and (particularly) the Ehde Dams...hmmm, pretty skillful crew, really - 60ft at night under fire on someone's wing to deliberately draw rounds....
Think what those chaps could have done with a Strike Eagle.
The retiring first generation of Vietnam boys I fly with really liked the "scooter" A-4 for low-level chuck-about-ness, and weapons flexibility. Took a real pasting though - just flew with a guest of the Hanoi Hilton.
Personally, I really like a stretch limo with 3 blonde babes...:D
Skol.

Ps. RotorHead - that Mirage incident wouldn't be the Screaming Skull at CX now, would it?

moggie

10th Jan 2003, 12:55

SWB Land Rover turbo diesel!!!! But do put a decent stereo system in, please!

A Civilian

10th Jan 2003, 21:29

Id choose one of these (the top picture) :eek:

http://www.aleniadifesa.finmeccanica.it/A4c_co1.htm

L J R

11th Jan 2003, 23:25

Rraamjet,

Have to disagree slightly.

Remember that most of those guys didn't come back. - lest not forget.

I would say that the F111F was a good ride - and no one seemed to care about G limits - yes it did 7G at 700 KIAS [briefly I might add!]. The F111C can do it for longer and the GR-4 whilst comparatively slow and uncomfortable to sit in [compared to 'Vaark] has more toys for the pilot to play with during its relatively brief time at low level. Like Swingwing states, I cannot comment about the Beagle on its actual capability should it require to go Low, but the idea of a nice Radar and some big sticks would at least make the ride less stressful should some gomer elect to give you a go from the front.

:p

UncleFester

26th Jan 2003, 17:07

Try a herc.....great fun, out turns everything except hills!! I'd put a great picture here if I knew how!

blind pue

26th Jan 2003, 22:27

Gazelle AH1

The slick version no stores boom or sight, 130 knts no problem,

Watching the ground rush between your feet, you know when you are too low you can hear the skid shoes scraping on the ground.:cool:

mutleyfour

27th Jan 2003, 17:49

Blind Pue - couldn't you just leave the groundhandling wheels on and save replacing said skid shoes!

;) ;) ;)

blind pue

28th Jan 2003, 20:13

Mutley

The name 'blind pue' was given to me for a reason, I think the sound from the Skid shoes was louder than the wheels.

But thanks for the idea if I fly the Gazelle again I will keep it in mind. :cool:

smartman

28th Jan 2003, 23:08

Got to be the Bucc. In what else could you carry a hefty load of Martels/paveways/iron bombs etc at 560 kt+, in ride comfort, and also stuff a huge load of Marsovin (sp?), prawns, hams and other such goodies in the bomb bay. Provided, of course, that you didn't roll the bomb bay ay Wainfleet on the way home? I remember one such OC that Pitched a valuable load of F1369's doing just that!

BlueWolf

29th Jan 2003, 04:46

UncleFester

Try right mouse button, select all, copy.

Then, in your post, right button again, and paste.

Look forward to it.

Mike Murphy

1st Feb 2003, 13:29

Hawg with lantirn pod :yuk:

Vertico

2nd Feb 2003, 22:53

BEagle - not still harping on about TSR2!!

Absolutely the right decision when it was cancelled, even though the decision was taken for completely the wrong (political) reasons.

A typical English Electric bit of kit - aerodynamically brilliant, but the engineering was appalling. Had it ever made RAF service, it would have been the greatest Hangar Queen of all time. Up to the time of cancellation, the flight-test programme had been one long tale of failure and delay.