Differences between RW and FW IR?

[Go-Around]

Just out of curiosity;

What are the difference between a rotary and fixed wing IR, if any?

My initial JAA IR consisted of:-
A SID to an airways route, to a STAR, ILS/DME, lose an engine on go-around, single and two-engine GH and partial panel, return for a single-engine NDB hold and approach down to minima, and circle to land. (I think that was all.)

Is the helicopter IR the same? How does single-engine flying compare to both engines going, i.e. what factors do you have to cope with? (I assume it's not called assymetric??)
Has anyone done both, and which did you find most difficult?
And lastly, is a decent twin heli difficult to fly single pilot IFR?
Thanks,
GA

[Herts Helicopters]

Hi,

You can only fly IR in twin Helo's in the UK.

[Go-Around]

Thanks HH,
I knew the IR could only be done on a twin, but is it legal to fly IMC on something like a decent 206 with a lot of kit in it?
Please excuse my ignorance of all things heli. Not for much longer though! (Finger crossed!)

[ATPMBA]

I believe Bristow has a B206 that has been specially modified for instrument flying, you can train and get an IR.

Single pilot IFR - some helicopters used for IFR flights have autopilots or a Stability Augmentation System (SAS) to help the pilot cope with the workload.

[ShyTorque]

It's a UK requirement for IFR helis to have two engines and an autopilot as well as a full complement of IFR instrumentation and nav kit. It makes IFR training very expensive.

It's arguably easier to fly a heli OEI because there is no "assymetric" thrust problem as such, although most types do require careful handling to ensure the required performance is obtained without the good engine being overstretched.

"Double India", the Bristow's 206 is the only UK single engined helicopter allowed to fly IFR (for training purposes only).

[SASless]

Single Pilot IFR with all the fancy kit working is fine.....what gets interesting is when George goes on break...ATC throws a change of runway onto you....and decides you are a mite early thus you should practice making racetracks.....of course I usually dropped my last pencil just before all that happens....which means I sound real bright after my alcohol ravaged brain rejects everything beyond "ATC clears.....".

Plank driving is much simpler really.....!

[soggyboxers]

GA,
The format of the 2 instrument flying tests is basically identical. Many of us in the helicopter world did our IRE courses on the HS125 simulator anyway (though I doubt many fixed wing IRE's did theirs on the S61 or AS332 sims - I wait to be corrected on this if there are any out there!!:D ). The only difficulty I found during the first couple of days of the course was coping with everything happening at around 2 or 3 times the speed one was used to in helicopters in those days! However, the helicopter tends to be a bit more difficult because of its lack of stability.

No, a decent twin eingine helicopter is not too difficult to fly single-pilot IFR provided you have done a suitable amount of training. It's best to have a reasonable amount of experience on type before starting because of the extra workload, despite all the aids that are available these days. You will normally expect to have higher landing minima imposed for those times when you are operating single pilot. If you carry out a single pilot IRR it all gets a bit hard work as, naturally, there will be times when you won't be allowed to use all the nice little gizmos and gadgets which make it so much easier when you're on your own!
:D

[fuel2noise]

My route to getting IR(H) on the S61 was greatly assisted by doing the IR course at Airways Flight Training at Exeter on the BE 76 twin. Having got my CPL(A)IR (single pilot IR of course) made the S61 sim course and subsequent CAA test on the S61 much less stressful but far from easy!

I found the whole procedural deal pretty taxing even though I had close on 3000 hours military helo hours including lots of time on the dials....it must be a nightmare for those with low hours.

[offshoreigor]

My Friend,

Any 2 mile per minute S-61 driver, worth his salt could cope quite easily at 8 miles per minute. It'a all about situational awareness.

The only difference between FW and RW is speed and time. How you manage it is up to you.

Like many of my peers here on this forum, I started out at 6 miles per minute and ended up at somewher between 3 to 4!

IFR is IFR, if you didn't have it in the first place, you may never get it. It's a state of awareness.

Cheers, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: OffshoreIgor:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Ascend Charlie]

To answer the original question of "What is the format of a heli IRT?"

Well, if you do a renewal, rather than initial issue, from Bankstown NSW, you start with a Standard Departure to the west, fly to Camden for an NDB sector entry and holding pattern, then the NDB approach with an engine failure sometime during the descent. This doesn't really cause a problem until you have to do the missed approach - you gotta nail those airspeeds pretty well for a climbout. But at least none of that "dead foot, dead engine" stuff and resultant flying around with one wing low and Class 1 leg muscles.

Anyway, make a circling approach and a rolling landing off the NDB approach. Taxy off the runway, back to 2 engines, then a rejected takeoff back to the runway. Another 2-engine takeoff, engine fails after CDP, continue for another circling approach and OEI landing.

2-engine departure and climb, track for RAAF Richmond and an ILS to minimas and overshoot (RAAF won't let you land, specially since 11 Sep) and then join for a GPS approach back to Bankstown.

Takes about 1.6 hours all up, with a mixture of autopilot and hand-flying.

The advantage of a helo in IMC over a plankie is that we can slooooow down if things get too far ahead of us, so instead of 145 kt we can pull back to 80 if necessary. Might stuff up the queue behind you, though...:(

[IHL]

In Canada the 2 rides are very similar; area departure, airwork, hold , 1 precision and non non-precision approach.

Emergencies: engine failure at altitude, engine failure on the go around ( simulated at altitude fixed wing), engine failure in the hold or on the approach, plus various emergencies to make it interesting. Helicopters do actual rejected take-offs at CDP/V1 where as the plankers just do V1 cuts in simulators.

An engine failure on approach is definately easier to handle in a helicopter than a fixed wing. In fact all engine failure drills are easier in helicopters ( lack of assymetric thrust).

Non precision approahes in aeroplanes are a lot more challenging as well , depending on the ceiling and vis when you break out.

The big advantage though IMHO for fixed wing IFR is you usually have an alternate airport out of the destination weather system, and you don't have the problem of icing in cloud that most helicopters have.