214s & Kmaxs Working Aussie Fires

[All Blacks]

For those that are interested the fleet on this years fires in NSW is varied. Superior Helicopter from Oregon have one Kmax with a second arriving in a couple of days and McDermott Aviation have got three 214s working, out of the five they got from the Middle East - Oman I think it might have been. Then add into the mix the Skycranes and the local Bk-117s, AS-350s and other assorted.

Seems like the Kmax and 214 are getting rave reviews. However the Kmax is pulling similar weights as the 214 but with a lot less expense.

AB
P.S. John could probably enlighten us on what else is there.

[John Eacott]

Most fires have cooled down for Christmas, but we've got 5 BK117's, 1 205, a UH1, 2 206's, a 206L and a 350, plus 3 stiff wings and an S64 on the Jindabyne fire, which has been going for about a week so far.

The K Max was very impressive during its debut at Blackheath, as were the 214B's. The usual list of suspects also include a Heinz 57 variety of UH1 variations, which are in the "restricted" category, and unable to carry pax, but still good water haulers.

No sign of an end in sight, with some hot northerlies on the way right now....:rolleyes: I've been tasked this week for buoywall filling, makes a change from emptying the darn things!!!

[Capn Notarious]

Does this mean then, that water is hauled in to the tempory tanks, by helicopter, extracted at later time and then dropped/sprayed by helicopter. Or do you also use road tankers for water replenishment.
Do home owners get financial incentives/ tax credits to collect water.

[John Eacott]

CN,

Buoywalls, or collar tanks, are usually filled by road tankers, to supply either helicopters or fire crews in remote areas. In this case (Jindabyne fire) we are topping up buoywalls to support the ground crews, who have put in a fairly massive control burn over the past 4 days, and need the water. The track is not suitable for road tankers, so we got the guernsey to haul water from the Snowy River.

It's a lot easier to get the water out with a Bambi bucket, than to put it in ;)

[spinningwings]

John, I don't doubt that for a minute.... arr the smell of smoke! :D :D :D

[John Eacott]

The first K Max is named "Wild Thing". Farthing to Threadneedle Street the second will be "Mad Max" ;)

[All Blacks]

John

Whats the latest, who is working where.

AB

P.S. Where is the Kmax working out of, if at all.

[chopperdr]

installed simplex tanks on two as 350b3's in perth, affectionetly named mini-me 1 and 2.

[The Auditor]

If this suggestion of putting a Simplex Tank under a B3 is true.........what does the client require????????

A B3 operating in a typical "Fire" mode is nearly a hinderance on the fire ground........compared with a capable and proven firfighting helicopter/aircraft.

From experience in North America.........at ISA plus 25.......you might as well stay at home with anything other than a medium.........

Can anyone supply the specifications for this operation......?????

[John Bicker]

Fairly narrow assumption Mr Auditor. Elaborate as to what you are on about. 350 B3's are the models in question or are you living in the past and thinking 206B3.

Which medium is so great at ISA +25 anyway? Would love to here your suggestions - or do you charge for that?

[Red Wine]

At one stage here in NSW there were 74 helicopters plus an unknown number of ag airplanes on fire duties..........what a mess..

Whilst I am in a Twin Medium aircraft, I can see the advantages of the "Heavies" with a similar turnround time as myself, but with 300% the capacity........

I agree,,........what really ****'s me off is the light aircraft dropping a small volume of straight water on an outbreak, whilst we try to dodge all the helicopters/aircraft as we carry over twice the retardant underneath...!!!!

A few mediums and heavies in Perth would be great........who are the operators of those B3's.....was that a government tender/ or Adhoc...????.....as we did't see it if its was gazzetted...?

[chopperdr]

sirs: the aircraft in question are as-350b3's. the simplex tanks carry 1100L, with a foam inject capability. this combination can go litre to litre with the 205 / 212 and at the end of the day do it cheaper. the company that is operating the astars is helicopters australia. i received an email last night that FESA is very pleased with the results of three fires attacked during the last week alone.

[407 Driver]

1,100 L of Water/Foam in a B3? That sounds like it's a bit over the B3's Internal GW of 4960 lb. Actually it sounds like that is up to the max external AUW. Is the internal load in this situation considered "jettisonable" ?

[helmet fire]

chprdrv said:

as-350b3's. the simplex tanks carry 1100L, with a foam inject capability. this combination can go litre to litre with the 205 / 212 and at the end of the day do it cheaper.

With all due respect - absolute bullsh!t sir.:p

Good read straight from the marketing pamphlet though. By my reckoning, a B3 (best case with bare avionics pack, no cargo floor) does not come in much under 1350 KG empty. Lets add a pilot of say 90 KG and an hour of fuel plus 20 mins reserves: 180 kg. So far thats 1620 kg TOW. Add the 1100 litres = 2720 kg. Wow - 80 KG under max gross - but wait, did you say simplex tank? And foam inject kit. And I presume at least a 20 litre foam reservoir at more than 1 kg/litre. Not including all the fire contract survival kits, repair kits, fuel pumps, etc. Pretty close to 2800 MGTOW is my guess. Now go to 2000 ft at ISA =25 and doesn't simplex require OGE hover in the supplement?

For your info, the 212/205 A1 will carry up to 1800 litres in a bucket - though more practically a 1635 litre model PLUS 40 litres of foam. The B3 with a bucket will not get much over the 1100 litres given bucket weight of about 60 kg and foam weight. Fitted with a belly tank which typically weighs about 140 kg, the 212/205 A1 will carry at least 1400 litres plus 40 of foam all day. They will also haul 14 passengers Vs the B3's 5 (or 6 if you have weight in the tail for CofG and reduce water capacity accordingly).

So matching litre for litre? Big call. Cheaper per litre - probably is, and definately should be because they are a simislar purchase price. As usefull to the fire ground? No. They do not have the pax/cargo capacity. Are they the best machine for the WA budget? - yes. But don't start thinking that because they suit the budget over there that they are some how suddenly a 212/205 class aircraft.

A more reasonable competitor would be the BK117.

It is fantastic to see the B3's out on the fire line finally, and I think they are a great start for the WA mob.

Just as an aside: I assume the belly tank is considered an "external load" for the purposes of AUW calculations - though I am not sure how unless it is primarily suspended by the cargo hook attachment points.



:cool:

[The Auditor]

John, No you can have it for free [at the moment]...:)

Without heading to the office and getting the actual spec's......the B205"B" and the B212 with PT63B's are two examples of what I am referring to......dedicated and capable systems.

Chopperdr......

Please don't assume that we all believe that a AS350B3 can go head to head with a dedicated B205B, B212, B412 fire attack helicopter.....the AS350B3 simply can't do that......your insinuation is misleading, and can not be backed up by actual appraisals.

The Government Regulatory Authority [CAA] must have "approved" the tank installation as a "Hook" "Suspended Load"......which also means that there was some redesign and remanufacture of the airframe, to allow the increased Take Off weight of the "Hook" load to be carried by the hardpoints........I would be interested in this concept for other operations around the globe.
After the Xmas break, I will ascertain if the extra load capacity of the AS350B3 Internal v's External is due to Skid Limitation, Deck Limitation or CG limitation.......I thought in this case it was the strength of the Skids......hence I guess there would be a heavier set of skids with this tank fit?

As I am in touch with my colleagues in Australia.....can you advise me [Private Message please] as to which Auditor was involved with this project......I would be most interested in discussing these developments with him.

[All Blacks]

Obviously chprdrvr must either work for Simplex or do their installations. What happened to the Isolair tank, that you have conveniently forgotten about. I know a lot of operators who wont touch the Simplex version for a number of reasons including expensive purchase price, lack of customer support etc etc.

Brevard County Mosquito Control just bought a new tank for their B3 and actually looked at the Simplex one before going with Isolair. Also if the tanks are so good then why did McDermotts go with the Isolair tanks for their 214s.

I would suggest you change your logon to Simplex.

Helmet Fire - Just on way home from your old stomping grounds. Spent past few days at around Kikori, Kuri and Moro.

AB

[chopperdr]

sirs: poor choice of words on my part, as helmet fire points out on a dollar per litre comparison the as-350b3 would be a strong competitor to the medium bell. helmet fire is correct on his calculations.
did not mean to insinuate anything other than the combination of the tank and helicopter is a viable alternative.
the tank is attached to the cargo swing attach points and considered external, the all up weight is limited by the skid gear as there are no special airframe modifications required to install the tank.

[Red Wine]

By your calculations......that means the B3 could never land or take off with retardant in the tank or crew in the back...whilst above "Internal MTOW"........wonder if the crews know [or practice] that.......or the client??

Can anyone tell me how this obvious Government tender was released, bid and won without any of the recognised companies being aware of the option..........????

Also would love to see the specifications........bet my leftie, that this aircraft fit can't meet them, unless the specs were written for the aircraft!!!........I reckon about 850 litres tops at ISA plus 20.......and if there is a crewman onboard...then 800 litres or less......compare that with the machines on the East Coast at the moment........1400 plus each trip.

[John Bicker]

The Auditor---
Bell 205B? Which one of the possibly 6 at most in service are you referring to? BTW Bell only
ever made about 320 odd 205 Commercial aircraft. How many are still alive - 200?

With regard to all the blether about exemptions, redesigns and other waffle it
is no different to the B205A1. 9500 Internal, 10500 External, the condition being
that the load is not imposed on the gear. i.e it's picked up and dropped off in flight.
The Simplex and Isolair kits both attach to the cargo swing points which are at the gear saddles.
If these points can handle the gross weight of 2250 kg's plus the dynamic load surely 1400 kg's in
the opposite direction is of no consequence. Hardly rocket science.

What do you "dedicate" all these Mediums to in the off season. Don't say IFR/Offshore. A lead pig like that would be
useless as a firefighter. BTDT. A B3 is definitely easier to market.

Let me see - I have about 7000 odd hours in helicopters, 1000 of them in the smoke in Australia and Europe,
1200 in Bell mediums, and 400 odd in the 350. Oh! can repair most of the above legally as well. Maybe you
need a "consultant" you could pay!


Granted Chopperdr may have been handling the truth a little carelessly but a B3 would certainly keep
a Bell medium pretty honest.




helmet fire---

Let me apply the same math to the 205A1.

Average EW B205A1 2586
Pilot 90
1 hour and 20 370
3542 Bambi (1590 ltrs) 1667

Gross weight 4713

or 10388 lbs.

2000' and ISA plus 25 is a DA if the QNH is normal of at least 5000'. Quote me the performance page
in the flight manual where this happens OGE as you have imposed on the B3. From my fuddled memory you are on
the stops at about 4000' DA.
It's been about 10 years. I would say your claim of 1400 litres all day is close at those temps and altitudes.
Maybe the Auditor could measure it for you.

OK a 205A1 with a few STC's like a -17 and 212 MR dynamics etc is a completely different story, even a 212
wouldn't see which way it went.


"the 212/205 A1 will carry at least 1400 litres plus 40 litres of foam all day" - really?
Interesting to note that the Isolair tank is only physically capable of carrying 1223 litres
and that Simplex quote 1420. Are Australian Isolairs bigger?

Would love to know the weights that the UH-1's are lifting seeing that they are only certified to 9500 lbs maximum
in all cases. And people wonder why they break. A UH-1 is not a "205".

The B3 next to me weighs 1252 empty

EW 1252
Pilot 90
1 plus 20 180
Simplex Tank 115
Water 1000

Gross weight 2637

Ex the 350B3 Flight manual 2000' ISA + 25 OGE Hover = 2640 kg. Just but still OGE. This would give you about a 200' drop
from above the highest point in South West WA. So I guess at lower temps and heights you could pick up the claimed
1100 litres.

Sounds like you may have the smoke but forgotten the mirrors with your guess. Would love to see some REAL numbers as
to what is lifting what in AUS. Maybe the Auditor should pedal his wares down there.

Red Wine--- Yes there is more than one helicopter operator in Australia. The one that got the contract has been in operation
since 1955. Interesting to note that their hydraulic accessory drive that was developed years ago still powers all the 315B
Lama tank installations here in Europe.


"I'll bring my own fish and chips thanks"

[Red Wine]

Settle down Mate.......take a cold shower.


To date........Eurocopter has yet to challenge BHT in the Fire Ground Market.........it may be good if that happens.........but not yet an issue.

Any ASXXX can't to this day compete with any BHT fire aircraft..........

Ask yourself truthfully [yes truthfully].........if your farm and house with family on the ground was on fire........what would you want to see overhead......a B3 with 700 litres or a 205B with 1500 litres......my case rests.

Money in these circumstances only belongs to the politicians.

[John Eacott]

Lot of speculation here. Just to add to it, the rumour from Helicopters Australia's engineers is that the average load for the 350B3 is about 800lt, increasing with fuel burn off.

Eurocopter products yet to challenge Bell on the fire ground? RW, the 117 is a Eurocopter product, and has become very popular, and very capable, in the NSW fires over the past 6 years. Mine was the first, six years ago, and there are now three on government contract, and between 3 and 6 CWN in use at any one time. The ability to lift up to 1000 litres (or slightly more in the case of the HeliPro machine, IIRC their 'Spray' bucket has about 1100 lt capacity), put 8 troops into the same area as a Squirrel, all with twin engine safety and a good overall performance, has made it a reliable and popular machine.

As with any machine, there is always a trade off early in the action when heavy on fuel resulting in a reduction in payload. Fixed capacity buckets such as the Bambi inevitably are cinched in 10 or 20% to allow for this, whereas the tank equipped machines, or those with DUFAS or Spray buckets can adjust the water pickup through the flight. Even the larger mediums are prone to this, I noticed more than one 214B and Huey variant with 80% on the cinch strap, and the Aircrane certainly doesn't start off with full load when it has full fuel. My Bambi is set at 90%, and when I use the DUFAS I go a bit heavier on fuel (stay out longer) and start at 70% (700 lt), but can haul 100% (1000 lt) after an hour.

The 350B3 sounds a very capable set up, and deserves support. Western Australia has suffered from an anti helitack mentality for years, any opportunity to break the nexus is more than welcome, IMHO!