Legitimacy of MALGUS

[The Graduate]

Can anyone confirm to me the legitimacy of the offers made by Malgus Ltd?

I gave a call to BAE Systems in Jerez yesterday. The man in their marketing department sounded very clued up legally and was not saying anything that would legally count as a confirmation.

what he did say is that he could confirm that Malgus have made the *intention* of putting sttudents through their training. BAE Systems also have nothing to do with the offer. They are simply "being asked to train the cadets for Malgus as they do by BA, Aer Lingus etc".

If anyone can confirm the legitimacy of the offer before I commit my £147 for testing and a flight to Scotland that would be great!

It seems almost too good to be true, don't you agree?

[fritz_2001]

All indications say that the offer is legit. Although we appear to be banned from talking about this offer in this forum!!

You would known this already if the previous threads on this topic hadn't been removed!! This is exactly why threads on this topic should remain in the forum - to help wannabes.

rant over

mw

[Sir Algernon Scruggs]

What is on offer?

Malgus are offering 100% sponsorships to 16 applicants to get a FULL ATPL (frozen) for absolutely no cost to themselves. The training will be done at BaeSystems in Jerez. All accommodation and food is included. Do not know if travel to and from is included.

Each applicant is required to pay up front £147. This amount has been arrived at by Malgus as £100 towards training and £47 to Malgus - to cover the cost of staff, advertising and 'other' costs. It has now been established that Malgus are proposing to 'fund' the project themselves.

These are their terms and conditions:

You shall pay Malgus Limited the sum of £147 (inclusive of VAT)

Malgus Limited shall arrange for you to participate in the necessary basic examinations and tests with a view to proceeding to a full Training Course to obtain a Joint Airworthiness Authority Commercial Pilots License. You will be given at least 2 weeks notice of the date of the first Examination which will take place at the Glynhill Hotel, Renfrew where Malgus Limited have arranged a reduced rate for candidates wishing to stay overnight.

At each stage in the process the examining body will select those candidates who are to proceed to the next stage. The decision of the examining body will be final. Malgus Limited will have no involvement in this process.

If you are successful in reaching the final selection interview, you will have to enter into a further, more detailed agreement with Malgus Limited

For successful candidates, Malgus Limited shall pay the full cost of accommodation and training (with exception of multiple resit fees) to achieve such a license. For the avoidance of doubt, on successful completion of the course there is no obligation to make any reimbursement to Malgus Limited of the sponsorship money.

Refund of fee. If you tell Malgus limited at least fourteen days before the first Examination date of your intention to withdraw from the program you shall receive a full 100% refund. If seven to fourteen days notice is given before the Examination date then you shall receive 50% of the fee paid. Under no other circumstances ( including failure to pass the JAA FCL Class One Medical Examination at the final stage ) will a refund of the fee be granted.

If Malgus Ltd in their sole discretion decide that the project is not viable and decide to cancel the sponsorship offer at any time, all candidates who have applied will receive a full 100% refund of their initial fee.[/list=a]

How do the numbers stack up?

First some assumptions:

[list] £147 per applicant

£40k per course in Jerez (approx) = 400 applicants

£100 used as basis towards all training costs.

Figures:

Fundamentals:

To put 16 selected candidates through BaeSystems will cost £640,000.

No of applicants required by Malgus to fund the 16 courses is 6400.

If Malgus get 6400 applicants they will automatically receive £300,800 for their running costs. i.e. £47 from each applicant. (less possible refunds and charges from Parc Aviation).

Now for some other relevancies;

I doubt that we can assume that they will get 6400 candidates in one go. It will take a period of weeks. So they will have on going costs for Parc and for the Glynhill Hotel but they will have revenue which they can turn into further cash, so I think it's clear that they are NOT doing it for altruistic reasons.

They are probably doing it for business purposes only and not solely for the welfare and future of wannabes.

Finally, there will be 6384 disappointed applicants for the 16 that are chosen (399 for) each one chosen.

Conclusion:

Even if Malgus get enough first time round applicants to pay for one or two courses there will not be enough people left or entering the market for a second round of operating the scheme - the bad feeling from the 1000's of rejects will ensure that... however, where they are going to get over 6,000 wannabes who are prepared to part with £147 is anybodies guess and I suppose if people are desperate enough then maybe, but I doubt it.

Althought the company is legitimate and they are offering a chance to get on a course they require many more people to part with their money to be able to fund it. It is all a bit of a lottery. you have a 1 in 400 chance of getting on a free FATPL course for a £147 ticket but you may think your chances are better than that if you feel you have more aptitude than your fellow applicants.

It could be you... but I doubt it!

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Sir Algernon Scruggs ]

[RickPhucked]

What if Malgus turn round after the interviews and say they couldn't find anyway who was good enough for the position, they are in there legal rights to, and can dissapear with a nice tidy sum. Strange that the company didnt exist up until 3 months ago, and also strange that it became a LTD, do they need financial protection etc? Why not setup as a charity?
This sounds pretty dodgy, particularly when a company that is supposed to be commiting nearly £1 million to training people has a home made website, can't they afford professional website engineers?

[The Guvnor]

Wasn't there a similar thing a year or two ago which turned out to be a scam? I forget what it was called, but there were a number of rather extensive threads on the subject.

And yes, I agree with Rick*****ed - one would have thought that at the very least they would have had a more credible front than the one they present!

However, I don't see anything sinister in their using a limited liability company as their vehicle - though I do think that it would help, considerably, if the details of those involved with the company were made public: ie are they people with a AAA track record in the business, chancers, or known scam artists?

Another warning bell to me is their timing - right now, there are a lot of people out there who were hoping to get on courses which have evaporated. £147 is not too large a chunk of change for them to buy a lottery ticket with ... and I suspect that in earlier years (without the availability of sites such as this where people can share their concerns) many would do so. Yet what makes them think that they have a better chance for their 16 newly minted pilots than all the other airlines that have cancelled their trainee's courses?

Seems highly suspect to me!

[rigidity]

It all sounds a bit too much like the Flying Start scam that got much publicity on this forum a while back. Resulting in strange letters announcing the cancelling of the scheme due to sudden illness within the company. Needless to say the company was never heard of again. :p :p :p

[Token Bird]

Bear in mind that bmi is a part-sponsorship where the successful applicant has to provide £15,000 towards the training. I think this sum may have put more people off than the £50 application fee. Still, I think 6000 applicants is unlikely to happen.

As for Flying Start, I rang OATS at the time and they seemed to think it was on the level, in fact they were very insulted that I suspected it was a scam. Therefore just 'cos a company can fool a flight training establishment it doesn't mean they aren't dodgy,

TB

PS. As far as Malgus making money out of it, will it simply be from the application fees or are they planning to bind people into some horrible contract with crappy pay?

[EGDR]

Once you do the sums I think it speaks for it's self. They may get enough people for 1 or 2 to go to Jerez but after that who knows. Those who do apply will probably do so once due to the cost and then where are the rest going to come from.

I would rather put the money towards the substantially costs of gaining a CPL/IR, exams, accomodation etc.....

From I personal point of view I would also be bitter about £147 which I would have to scrape together to probably finance somebody elses ATPL. ( I mean, I know I'm good but with these odd's....)

[moggie]

I'm an instructor at BAE Jerez, and I have been told that the company is happy that Malgus are legit. Malgus themselves are using the money from the selection procedure to fund the courses and have also some kind of support from Scottish Enterprise (but I am not sure if that is financial, legal, business or just moral!).

I believe they have said that if insufficient numbers come forward they will refund the money in full (i guess they won't spend money on tests until they know how many applicants there are).

If they do not get 6400 applicants, they will put a lesser number of cadets through here. If they get more there will be more sponsorships to follow.

I am surprised that this thread is still here as any Malgus threads were being deleted yesterday because Malgus have declined to advertise here and PPRuNe don't want to give "free advertising" - as I was told by PPRuNePOP who closed the threads down.

I was also accused of being a trouble maker for raising that point - but there you go!

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

[seekingfirstjob]

One thing that nobody seems to have noticed is the terms and conditions. If the course is not run it would seem that we get a full refund of our fee. Their website has details of the directors and the company is registered with companies house website.

As far as I can add up if they get around 700 people they can send 2 people to Jerez. not counting any fees to parc etc. so possibly they need 800 to send two to jerez and pay parc and still have a sum left over to pay their staff and bills etc. Its not the best offer but its on the table now and I for one cannot stump up the 32000 wanted for other sponsorships on offer. If not enough people apply will it still go ahead? I doubt it and I guess then it wont happen again.

WWW seems to think their legit so I guess its worth a shot.

Good luck to all

[seekingfirstjob]

Hi all again

Just got off the phone with Malgus, as has been said they confirmed that the more people they get into the tests the more they can train. They didn't give any numbers etc but did stress the refund policy to me.

Apparently they are trying to advertise on pprune but have been told that all advertising slots are full for the next few weeks or so. Does anyone know if this is true?

Still Seekingfirstjob!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can say nothing more on this topic.

WWW

[seekingfirstjob]

Dear friends

Once, a long time ago I used to frequent this site just as many of you do now. I stopped using the site over the past year as there were always the un-named people behind the scenes who decided to edit and control this, supposed, open speech forum.

I think that the un-named are at it again and their target is Malgus. I dont know what the problem is but if they are not letting Malgus advertise and stopping all threads about them then somebody somewhere must be taking this personally.

I for one am with Moggie who says let Malgus topics be discussed in open chat and let them advertise if they want.

As Malgus are a business then advertising must be the key to success.

I really hope that the attitude of those in charge of this site is not that of malice as they are harming any chance for the Malgus offer to work.

Don't get me wrong I think that PPRUNE is a great site for all us aviators to chat on but I just get sick of people controlling what we are allowed to see and read.

Sincerely

Seekingfirstjob.

[Vref +50]

You lot must be mugs to fall for this.

It may well be a sound company but the whole premise is that there will be one place for every 400odd applicants.

Thats rubbish odds. Add your travel costs to the 4 sessions and you are looking at wasting well over £200 apiece.


You WON'T be the one to be selected will you. Lets face it:

a) They will only get enough applicants to send one or two people.

b) Of those one or two there might be one or two who apply who are in some way connected with the management of the scheme. A son of a friend of a friend for example... Oh sure he will have to pass the tests.... no question of him seeing the papers beforehand... and he was very good at interview.... completely impartial selection. Cough.

Get real people. If these people are airline pilots as they have claimed then you can bet their bottom dollar they have either friends or family members who want to be airline pilots like them. They went to the pub one night and came up with a most cunning idea for financing that ambition.

I wish I had thought of it first.

And they can be all above board about it. The only rule broken might be showing someone a test ahead of it being taken and then picking someone at interview whom you already know.

Neither of which is going to get anyone in jail or even found out.

Hey - presto, an ATPL course for the son/nephew/best mate.

There is no way this scheme is going to run for years and years is there...? There are only about 450 new pilots a year in the UK and they need this many just to send slightly less than one cadidate per annnum.

Wake up Boys and Girls - the coffees ready

:rolleyes:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well. What a suspicous man you are Vref +50. Shame on you.

WWW

[Mooney]

I paid a lot of money to BAE for one of their spoof schemes in the past, in which no one ended up getting jobs.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Never heard of them, but the old adage "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" springs to mind. (As well as "there is no such thing as a free lunch; you don't get something for nothing", etc)

[seekingfirstjob]

Its good to see that this thread hasn't been deleted yet, thank you oh god you tells me what to think.

Sorry folks just letting off steam

I was in the same mind as VRef + 50 until I spoke to Parc Aviation. They are running the selection scheme and Malgus has nothing to do with it.

The odds are bad but hey for 147 pounds you *could* get a free licence.

Who knows may be I'm suckered in too, but I can see how it would work.

BAE seem to say that they have nothing to do with the sponsorship also just to provide the training

may the comments roll on!

[The Guvnor]

Spoke to Scottish Enterprise today - much consternation as they cannot understand why they should be backing something which isn't benefitting Scotland - or even involving Scottish based training. That said, they were rather surprised to hear that BAe is no longer at PIK!

Wasn't Flying Start also allegedly Scottish based?

What's their website url - and the names of the people involved?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The thread won't be deleted. Email me if you have something to get off your chest.

WWW

[Flypuppy]

It would be interesting to know what the connection is between Malgus and Flying Start. The concept seems exactly the same, the geographical location of the organising body is the same. Despite WWW's recommendation something just doesnt seem quite right.

Tell us Andy, what is the difference between this scheme and Flying Start?

[rolling circle]

I was at Oxford when the Flying Start scam was running. The marketing bunch were putting out the same cr@p that BAe are putting out now - "We have been approached by ....... and are prepared to provide training for the appropriate fee". Don't be fooled by the salespeak, nobody is in the flight training business for your benefit, only for their own.

If you have £147 to throw away then good luck to you, but be under no illusions, you will be throwing it away.

***Real cargo doesn't complain - Ever!!!**

[SuperSpanner]

Vref+50 is a very astute individual.

Malgus is an anagram of al mugs. :eek:

Next week I will have up my new phone in site where for a fee of £2.00 you will be able to register your name for the opportunity to win an all paid flight training programme. No catches, no tricks.

You may enter as many times as you wish, the charge will be added to your phone bill. It's just like the lottery, but better! :)

Don't let your ambition get the better of you!

[TomPierce]

Vref+50 has posted an amusing but cynical post. But, in essence, what he says is right.

He makes good points and I quote from his post.


There is no way this scheme is going to run for years and years is there...? There are only about 450 new pilots a year in the UK and they need this many just to send slightly less than one cadidate per annnum.


This is almost true. The ACTUAL figure is ONE candidate goes for training for - every 470 who apply.

Have you sent your £147 yet?

:o

[sammartin]

I've sent my £147, I've booked my trains and I've booked my flights. And I can tell you now - this is the the best chance any of you are going to get in the next 2 years without having to fork out £40000 for a ATPL.

[schooner]

I think it was WWW who mentioned recently that only 600 applicants were prepared to pay the £50 appication fee for the last BMI CEP drive. .

The reason only 600 applicants were prepared to pay that application fee is because they had been invited onto the next stage of the selection process. I`m sure if 1000 were invited, they would have all coughed up the necessary dosh. The number that actually applied from the off to the scheme was a lot more.
That said, 6000 applicants is a rather large number to shoot for, I would think they would be doing well to get enough applicants to fund one place, if that :rolleyes: .

Anyway, good luck :( to those who do apply, hope you don`t get stiffed

cheers,

Schooner

[RickPhucked]

EnglishPilot I mean 'EnglishwannabePilot' you stupid, you would have a better chance on the lottery, or even playing the horses with your £200+ (cost+expenses), you could even of bought a couple of introductory lessons in flying to see whether you actually enjoy it. But Malgus aren't gonna give you your ATPL, they only been trading 3 months, isnt that strange!!! If you really wanna be a pilot you should apply to the British European Training Course, because at least you'd have a professional decision by an airline whether your a good enough person to employ, and ok you would have to pay £31,000 but im bloody sure that if you showed the bank you're acceptance on the scheme they would most definatly say YES.

[EGDR]

Englishpilot - do you work for Malgus ? because you keep telling us you have booked your place/train fares and you keep telling us to apply before we 'miss the boat' ??????

[sammartin]

Firstly, I already am a pilot with my PPL + Night, so don't patronise me. Secondly, I don't think you should keep putting people off going to Malgus because for people like me who have a genuine determination to get in to the top end of aviation (unlike you lot who can't even spare £147 for the chance), I do not think it is fair. All that you are doing is decreasing the amount of people that would have applied, which makes it harder for those who are applying to get on to this programme. Just keep your mouths shut if you aren't applying, leave it up to us, the people who are keen enough to get into flying, to decide.Thirdly, no, I do not work for Malgus. Fourthly, I have never EVER said "You will miss the boat if you don't apply" - all I have said is I think that malgus should get as many people as possible, to give everyone a better chance.

[Springbok220]

Cut Englishpilot a bit of slack folks. He/ she sounds intelligent enough to weigh up the risks and chances and should be given some respect for making the decision and commitment to apply for the scheme.

I personally have not totally decided, but at this stage, think I will give it a go.

[The Guvnor]

If it's a kosher scheme, then it shouldn't matter how many people apply. Of course, if it's a scam, then they need as many people as possible to take the cash from and run off laughing.

In fact, the fewer people apply, the better your chances of getting selected will be - if it's for real ... so if I was you, Englishpilot, I'd be warning everyone off it! :D :D :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flypuppy - unlike Flying Start I have been able to speak on several occassions to the man behind Malgus, to his father and to his associates. I have checked his address, his employer and his own training history. I know who he is, what he does and where he lives.

I am therefore confident that this is NOT Flying Start II. Which at first I thought it was. Hence the investigation.

I leave it solely to the judgement of the individual Wannabe as to whether to apply. Judgement is such a critical skill in aviation.

WWW

[Malgus]

Hi all

We appreciate that many of you are scared that we may be running a scam. We're not, I know it won't convince many of you, but we're not.

We do require a large number of people to make our offer valid and if we don't get near those numbers we can't run the offer.

All will get a full refund, and we will go back to the drawing board and to try and see how we can offer our sponsorship offer again and perhaps get more approval for a different offer.

Thank you for all who support and understand us in this hostile environment.

MALGUS

[The Guvnor]

Malgus - can you confirm, then, that the figures provided elsewhere in this thread are correct and that this is merely a 1:470 lottery?

Also, can you clarify what the role is of Scottish Enterprise and what they think they are getting out of it?

Finally, what form of security or escrow account is provided by Malgus Ltd to ensure that all funds will be returned to the applicants if you decide not to go ahead with the programme?

I'm sure that your answers to those and the many other points raised in this thread will go a long way towards settling the doubts raised as to the validity of this scheme.

[The Graduate]

It seems like the thread that I started is causing quite a lot of interest. Can I please ask though for this not to be use for insulting matches between individuals. Please keep the posts aimed at the topic in question. Thanks.

I myself am still not decided whether or not to go for it but I think I probably will. Yes it could be a scam and they could get our £147++, but then it could also be genuine. However, the ultimate question is can you/I really afford NOT to take the risk of losing 200 odd pounds when there is the possibility of essentially getting a free training? Someone afterall has to get the place (if there genuinely is one/two/...) and I want it to be me!

Not all of us can afford to pay our own way through an ATPL course and an offer like this, especially at the moment, is great (if it is legit)! It would be a lot cheaper to risk £147 and possibly lose it than to spend 40,000 pounds and still have no job guarentee.

I shall be calling the Scottish Enterprise, trading standards and anyone else that could confirm this offer or provide information and tips. Sorry Malgus, but you have to understand our scepticism. Will keep you all posted.

Please keep up the interesting views and if anyone has any further comments or info then please share! Thanks

The Graduate

[Capt Rommel]

There should be a simple solution to this uncertainty. If it isn't a scam, Malgus should have no trouble getting an independent, tangible legal party to verify the authenticity of the scheme. Essentially, no matter whether the course itself is real or not, this is gambling against unlikely odds with a small increase in chance if you're outstandingly good, right? But just like any other form of gambling, a solicitor or similar should be able to oversee both that the price is real (BAe saying "a party has approached us" doesn't mean that), AND that the tests are administered in such a way that nobody associated with the scheme has a way, even themselves, to manipulate it. Wannabes could then approach this independent party for verification.

I don't know if this is even possible. But until it's proven, I'd be forced to agree with VRef and Rolling Circle etc. Too much mystery and uncertainty surround this scheme.

"If it smells like sh*t and looks like sh*t, it's probably sh*t...!"

Malgus should be able to shed some light on this.

[moggie]

Come on chaps - you should know that prices agreed between an FTO and a customer (individual or airline) are confidential. However, I think anyone with a few grey cells should be able to see that there may be the odd "mid season sale2 or two under wya at the moment.

To tell the truth, I have NO IDEA what Malgus, BA, Air2K etc. pay - and anyone who says they do is using his imagination.

[Capt Rommel]

Ah.

Mid-season sale? But Malgus must have started the planning for their scheme, including their spreadsheets, *way* before anyone could predict how this whole mess of 11/9 would affect the training industry.

Beyond that, airlines get considerable discounts from the big training outfits only because they do serious block bookings for their CEP people over repeated and long periods of time. Any airline - even with a tiny CEP scheme - is big compared to a scottish startup.

How can Malgus secure an almost 50% discount? The company can have no reliable forecast of how many people will apply, never mind get through the exams. How can they, then, secure a fixed discount rate from a training supplier?

And even if they did, how could this information leak into the public domain - assuming Malgus is a reputable company?

Mysteries, mysteries....

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Capt Rommel ]

[sammartin]

I agree with you AMS. Leave them alone, give them a chance to show us what they can do and go and apply! If you just keep slagging them off ALL the time, how the hell do you expect people who are really serious about this to get in? Just keep your opinions to yourself unless they're going to help Wannabe's get into the Malgus scheme. If you can afford £147 then go for it. If not, shut up.

[InFinRetirement]

Thought for today! Had to come in with a few points.

OK. It's not a scam. Malgus are a legitimate company. They WILL place you in BaE/Jerez for training. Fine.

The odds of YOU getting selected for ONE place are 1 in 470. But first they have to get 470 people willing to pay £147 each - that may well take time. So it will not be quick.

So, some simple advice. First you have to decide if you are a participant. Then you have to decide if you have a realistic chance of getting through Parc Aviation's rigid selection process - they have been doing this for years and know their stuff.

Then, a few what if's?

3 actually pass all the tests on the first selection process. Only one is chosen. Are the remaining 2 then selected when the next process takes place? In fact, waiting for another 940 applicants to pay their £147 before they can? If that is the case the 940 will NOT get ONE place allocated to them!

Check the sums. What ifs are a natural function of business. They are also a natural function of decisions. I strongly suggest that read what Sir Algernon has written on page one, and then get down to making a decision. It's yours and yours alone, as WWW has said many times.

Finally. It's no good feeling all enthusiastic, raring to go, and getting annoyed with those who try to dissaude you. They have merely done the sums and feel it is not for them. You really should be doing the same - shouldn't you? Still your decision though.

[rigidity]

I agree with EnglishPilot. Its up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to go for this. There are very few opportunities out there at the moment and the most committed amongst us will go for any opening that we can find. Maybe those sceptics are not committed enough, but if you look at the people who are being critical about the scheme you`ll notice that the majority are not in a position to apply anyway (I am not sure why certain people are taking such an interest in something that really does not even affect them???).
When it comes down to it to get a job in this industry you have to take hell of a lot of risks - isn`t this just one of them? Ultimately £147 is not THAT much money and if it gets you where you want to be then its an absolute bargain. Who else is there to turn to for a sponsorship at the moment?? Air 2000, Airtours, BA, BMI, Air Atlantic, BEA, Aer Lingus......I don`t think so.

At this stage of the Flying Start saga, the whole thing had been rumbled and hey we did actually get our money back. Ok, so this scheme may sound too good to be true and it may not work out (Who knows!), but its got to be worth giving it a shot. I bet the cadets who were on the Aer Lingus, Airtours and BMI courses that got chopped recently thought that they were onto a winner ( and why wouldn`t they?), which only goes to show that you do take huge risks in this industry. However, you certainly will not end up in that left hand seat without taking them. :rolleyes:


Edited for spelling....

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Rigidity ]

[The Guvnor]

[edited to avoid confusion]

Remember that in the UK (according to Vref + 50) there are only some 450 new pilots per year. Now, I'm not sure whether that covers the whole gamut from PPL up to ATPL or whether that's ATPL only, but whatever it is, it's one tenth of what Malgus require to get every three months!

The thing that makes it seem really fishy to me - and to everyone else that I've discussed it with - is that they give you your rating and wave you a cheery farewell. If I was doing something like this, you'd be bonded to me for the next five years, during which I'd be subcontracting you out to whoever was prepared to take you - and the money from that part of the operation is where the real profit would come from.

It would also have the added advantage that those applying for selection would know that you'd be working your butt off trying to organise them work when they come out of the other side of the course, clutching your shiny new FATPL. This, in turn, would incentivise far more people to apply - which means you could run more courses; which means you'd have more people on your books at the end of it.

As I said in a previous post on this, Scottish Enterprise were really rather puzzled as to why they should be backing something which has no benefit for Scotland - and doesn't even involve any training there. My contact there is investigating the matter (she's very senior in their transportation department) and I'll post the results there. She did, however, say that it may well simply be that they are getting help from the Small Business Gateway scheme - which is like the old Enterprise Allowance Scheme - in which case definitely don't take that as any sort of a recommendation!

Finally, according to my solicitor (who being the former owner of a small airline knows a thing or two about this industry) if you're guaranteeing to repay funds in the event that the project doesn't go ahead, all applicants funds must either be held in a separate account (an escrow account) and not touched until the 'go' decision is taken; or alternatively bank guarantees must be in place to cover the monies taken. I've asked that question of Malgus and it will be interesting to see what the response is!

What I will say is that if it's done properly and as I've described above, with that ongoing commitment where you're effectively paying back the investment then it's very viable. In fact, so much so I'm going to look into doing it myself! :D :D :D

Incidentally, with the Flying Start scheme (or scam, depending on your outlook) did everyone get a full refund of their money?

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[Vref +50]

Why do you think the fee is pitched at £147? It might be because thats just small enough for the average desperate wannabe to consider write-offable.

The million dollar question is how many people will stump up the cash.

Looking for reasonable comparators one might look the to BALPA employment conference. To attend requires a modest cost and a reasonably serious intention to become a pilot, i.e. its not full of dreamers with nothing better to do that day. Now in the very good years they were getting just under 500 people attending.

My hunch is that they might get up to 1,000 applicants at this first event. Subsequent adverts will draw only a small fraction of that number.

Therefore Malgus might just be able to send one or two men to Jerez for free training. Which will be nice for them. I do hope they aren't the sons of Mr Malgus's old school mate... If the tests are set at a lowish pass level and the final selection runs off an interview, employment discrimination law would not apply, and hey presto. Jobs for the boys.

But probably that is not going to happen.

Probably what is going to happen is that you englishpilot AMS and others will pay for Bob Evans and Paul Bloggs to get their ATPL's. They might even buy you a beer one day for your help.

The odds and hundreds and hundreds to one. IF you like those odds then go ahead.

But please don't questions the motives of those like the Guv, IFinRetirement, Sir Algie or Wannabes very own WWW when they point out the high odds and dubious merits of this new business venture. All of them have no other motive than to pass on their advice in your best interests.

Frankly you should thank people for taking the time to put negative posts here. It allows you to have considered all the angles of what you are getting involved with. It allows you to frame and compose your own questions for the time when you meet Malgus Ltd.

There were people at the time of Flying Start whose puppyish enthusiasm blinded them and they too decried the nay-sayers on these pages.

"It Could Be You."

VREF

[EGDR]

This , on the face of it, appears to be genuine. I do however feel that is somewhat like going down to William Hill's and putting £147 on a 1-470 bet. If I had the spare cash, to squander, I would go down to the bookies or maybe I'll put on the DJ and goto the casino tonight.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

It has been said several times the final decision will rest with the individual,but they are very high odds.
There is an alternative.........You could all send me £100 and I will guarentee you a RHS.....unfortunatly this will only be for about one and a half hours and in a C152 whilst I fly it around booking P1 at your expence..... :D :D :D
Just be careful folks £147 is still £147.

[moggie]

well, buy my sums you arrive at £147 by taking £125 (maybe £100 for the training, £25 for the expenses?) and adding VAT. That comes to £146.87 - rounded up to £147.

Here's a thought - the Spanish government does not levy VAT (or IVA as it's known here) on pilot training - having your pilots trained is not deemed to be a "luxury" like Gordon Brown believes.

There is a strong likelihood that a similar regime (no VAT on training) would make pilot training in the UK cheaper, more attractive to self-sponsors who can't claim it back like the airlines do (unfair or what?) and so UK schools would not be moving overseas or subcontracting to the states. That would mean more money earnt and spent in the UK, compensating for the loss of VAT income.

We took 100 jobs away from Ayrshire when we relocated to somewhere where we could afford to provide quality training at the sort of prices less "quality-oriented" providers can charge. Read it and weep Tony, Gordon and the Scottish "Pretendy, Wee, Parliament" (to quote Billy Connolly).

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

[sammartin]

"Remember that in the UK (according to Vref + 50) there are only some 450 new pilots per year." Quote from "The Guvnor". Absolute Crap. You invalidated your claim anyhow - the 450 pilots is the people who get in, not the people who apply. BA alone get 30000 a year, what about flying instructors, other part sponsoring airlines, regional airlines, etc, etc. Those figures were just made up on the spot with absolutely no evidence to back them up at all. Get your facts right people. I recommend this post be taken down. There is too much speculation against Malgus. :( :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Malgus]

Hi All

OK, there have been a few viable questions asked. I will try and respond as best I can.

Scottish Enterprise - They are a government body who help start up companies who base themselves in Scotland. We have support from them as we require to employ around 10 people to ack as invigilators when we run the tests and then employ around 2-3 in a back office to process all the paperwork. Since we require staff scottish enterprise help us find suitably qualified unemployed people to help us. We have also set up in an area of Scotland called Renfrewshire which entitles us to support from certain departments of Scottish Enterprise to help find us premesis and IT equipment.

BAE SYSTEMS are not offering us courses for 26,000 We are paying the current cost.

I will be pleased to provide anyone with our legal team contacts who are also based in Glasgow.

For now however I would request that all questions are sent to [email protected] as we have not paid for advertising on PPrune yet and do not wish to annoy the owners here any more.

I hope this helps.

Malgus

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

englishpilot - the 450ish figure is correct and I have used it myself many times. It is the number of pilots that get hired for full time flying jobs other than instructing and excluding cadets.

It is an educated guess derived from data held by the Co-Pilot Register at Gatwick, the Independent Pilots Association and BALPA.

The figure cross checks roughly if you look at data from the CAA showing the numbers of pilots at retirement age each year coupled with CAA Medical data on the annualised losses of Class One medical status.

It also 'feels' about right to many people in the industry myself included.

You are quite correct to assert that many more people apply and get some way down the road of becoming commercial pilots than actually make it. Similarly there are significant numbers who get the licences but for various reasons never make it into an airline position.

You appear to be a trifle hysterical about people pointing out potential pitfalls about your application. There really is little need to become so irrate is there. Its your £147 and its yours to spend as you see fit and I doubt anyone would persuade you otherwise.

Good luck,

WWW

[TomPierce]

Guv. Wrong again! It's 16x£47k. THAT.....is £752,000! :rolleyes:

[The Guvnor]

Uncle Tom Cobbley - I was using the lower figures postulated by Rich Tea on page 3 of this thread. Malgus themselves have confirmed above that this is incorrect and they are paying the standard rate.

Of course, if they are paying the full whack of £47,000 and only intend to put through one person, then the sums come out as follows:

Income:
'Training fee' @ £100 x 470 = £47,000
'Management fee' @ £47 x 470 = £22,090

Expenses:
Transaction costs (estimate) £5 per application = £2,350
PARC and hotel fees (estimate) £5 per application = £2,350
VAT @ £21.89 x 470 = £10,228
€50pw pocket money x 54 weeks = €2,700 (approx £1,800)
Travel say £500

Total expenses: £17,228

This means that they are trousering just under £5k gross per person that they put through the course. However, from that they still need to pay their office staff (2-3 people), plus management expenses, rental, print, postage, travel, etc. It all looks rather iffy to me - certainly as a business proposition I wouldn't back it!

Moving on...

Scottish Enterprise - so as I said in a previous post, they are not, contrary to what someone said earlier, supported or endorsed by them in any way other than through the Small Business Gateway scheme. Incidentally, what's with needing ten(!!) invigilators when I was under the distinct impression that Parc are handling the tests?

Security of funds paid - I note that this question - together with that about the lottery nature of the operation - was ducked completely by malgus and is one that really needs to be answered as a matter of some urgency.

Finally, malgus, as it has been made clear that this thread will not be closed and it is of significant interest to the wannabes, I suggest that your own cause would be best served if you are able to answer all the questions raised on here.

[eagerbeaver]

IMHO dodgy! do you honestly think think they are doing this out the goodness of their hearts? Don't be a sucker, save that £147 for something worthwhile.
Checked out the website too....... says it all really!

[Capt Rommel]

"Malgus ltd is a new company with one objective in mind - we wish to allow everyone the chance of becoming a commercial pilot."

Ah, how charitable. :p

Have you had a look at the FAQ section of their site? It's aimed at wannabes that haven't a clue. Why are BA's entry test so hard? For a good reason. How can Malgus administer tests that are "not very hard"... covering only "basic questions" (see FAQ 4.4) and then still get just the right person - out of hundreds?

Never mind. You can always try again. "We will be running future tests during the year. You are welcome to try again, but you will need to pay for the tests again. " (FAQ 8)

hm... hmmmmm....

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Capt Rommel ]

[machone]

Just a couple of points
1. Nothing in life is free. regardless how good it seems however takes up this offer will end up paying the piper in the long run.
2. Who is supplying the money?? if an airline who, in the present climate of cost cutting layoffs etc . when most have frozen all recruitment who has the money, will the deal that was struck months ago still be valid.
3. having spent a long time in the avitation industry before getting that flying job, and meet a lot of people!!. Watch what you are getting into.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[carromking]

Malgus? HellllLOOOOOOoooooooo, ANYBODY THERE?

There are a few points raised above that could do with your clarification. People are clearly cynical which obviously isn't in your interest. Here is your opportunity to straighten the record. ?

Thanks in advance,
ck

[Malgus]

Hello all

We do not monitor these forums as part of our working day so please direct all questions to [email protected] then we can reply more efficiently.

We ARE supported by Scottish Enterprise and I'm sure those of you who find the right department you will find that out.

The funds to be retured. We have spoken to our bank manager and on his instructions we can keep the funds in our own account. The bank will honor all refunds made by Malgus.

The Guvnor. Your look at our cashflow is way off, perhaps you should do some research.

We need invigilators as Parc are only providing qualified staff to perform the tests and the interviews. We need to use our own staff to collect papers etc on the selection days.

Again please send questions to [email protected] so we can respond faster.

MALGUS

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Malgus ]

[purple haze]

im sorry but please correct me if im wrong

its up to malgus to honour agreements not the bank, so basically what you are saying is that the money will stay in your account and we are at your mercy if things dont work out.

the bank simply follows your instructions, if you say dont pay the bank manager cant do jack.

[The Guvnor]

purple haze - I agree with you 100% - I find it almost inconceivable that a bank manager would advise his client - as is alleged by Malgus - that he can secure his customer's security interests by co-mingling funds in a regular account.

I also find it very interesting - not to say telling - that Malgus is desperately trying to take any questions or criticism off the public forums such as this and is instead trying to keep them on a one-to-one, private email basis. If I was running a legitimate operation and was coming in for stick such as this, I would be doing my utmost to answer any and all questions being raised - after all, my business' future depends on it!

Malgus says: "We do not monitor these forums as part of our working day..." - well, if I was aware of people raising questions about by business then I'd be checking up on it on a very frequent basis indeed; especially given that the people raising these very real concerns are my potential customers. To do anything else demonstrates either a complete ignorance and lack of concern about the market; or alternatively an overwhelming arrogance about it. Either way, it shows that there is little in the way of business accumen or ethics being employed.

Malgus then goes on to say: "We ARE supported by Scottish Enterprise and I'm sure those of you who find the right department you will find that out." - now, again the logical thing here would have been to provide the contact details for that 'right department'. Other than through services provided to everyone that wants them through the Small Business Gateway Scheme, how precisely - Malgus - are they supporting you?

Next, he says: "The Guvnor. Your look at our cashflow is way off, perhaps you should do some research." Fine - so where exactly is it off? The only figures I estimated are the costs of the Parc fees, hotel charges, and the transaction costs (ie the costs of processing credit/debit/charge cards levied by their service provider). The VAT is readily calculable; and the €50 per week pocket money comes from their website. They have confirmed the cost of training.

The person named in their website as their managing director is an FO with Aer Lingus.

There is another organisation which has been established for considerably longer and which has far more credibility than Malgus Limited - Pilot Assist Limited, which is associated with the Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators (GAPAN). Instead of gambling your £147 with these chancers, I'd suggest you contact GAPAN instead!

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Seems it's a bit like a '200 club'. Each month 200 put £1 each into a fund, and each month someone wins the lot. Due to the law of averages, your name should come up at some stage (usually when you've paid about £200!)

So, 470 people, each month puttimg £147 into a fund, and each month someone wins the lot. Due to the law of averages......

Or else whilst you're waiting, take your £147 and invest it in yourself.

[EGDR]

AVCP - Wow, you must have studied statistics at school.

The real question is - is there 470 wannabes a month ? perhaps for the first month/ month & half, even then .......

[InFinRetirement]

Correction AVCP. The figures on page one are correct until the following was established.

The figure is 470 people putting in £147. £47 of which go to Malgus for "expenses" and such. A course at BaE has been confirmed as £47k - hence a requirement for 470 people.

I find I am deeply in suspect that their bank would utter such comments. It will require a guarantee by their bank that all refunds will be met - nothing less. I'll guarantee though, that if there are no funds, or insufficient monies to effect refunds, the bank will NOT refund anything.

Make up your own minds. Getting matters 'clear' by e-mail is non-conclusive and a bad idea, and since PPRuNe likes to offer support for it's wannabes, it think it also likes to see it in the open.

[mickey mouse]

In reply to the earlier msg from the Guvnor...GAPAN!!! now they are a legit organisation...one for which most people would give an arm and a leg for.The whole Malgus thing seems very suspect...i mean, i have grown up in aviation my whole life..and now as a young budding pilot, with ppl lookin for "the big job"...malgus does look tempting....but for £147....with all the current doubts, it doesnt seem as attractive. i know that at present GAPAN arent lokin for new people for their sponsorship, coz i applied, was turned down because i was a month to young...however..there is always next year everybody! which, may be better in because the airline business will hopefully have picked up by then...although nothing in life is garunteed.

i am still unsure of waht to do... i can hardly afford to spend £50000 odd on training, but then again can u afford to lose 147quid which could be better spent!

(someone by the way asked earlier if those people in flying start flop got their money back...yes i did...i i remeber rightly they sent the cheque back..)

also the fact that they will not admitt everything in the open (malgus) is suspicious...maybe co its a fraud...or did anyone consider the possibility that they are legit and maybe because this is such a good offer people are bound to think that its toooo good to be true, and that may be why....still suspect, yet a posibility.

i for one would ove to spend £147 and get an ATPL course...who wouldnt?? its a gamble....but, how much better chance have u got in winning the lotery if u spend £147..and millions of people play that, id say u have a much better chance out of 6000 applicants!..so maybe ill give it a try... :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

[purple haze]

sorry slightly off the thread

but could someone give me info on the GAPAN scheme. what exactly is it , when and where is it held?

cheers

[Hamrah]

Can I just point out that if ONE THIRD of the registered PPRuNe Members contributed £20 per year, the PPRuNe Fund could train 6 canidates up to their ATPL EVERY YEAR

No risk, No scam, no problem.

It's worth a thought.

H

[QUERY]

Many
Aviation
Learners
Gullible
Unwordly
Suckers

Any other conclusions on this?

[Capt Rommel]

Money Accidentally &Ludicrously Going Underground Swiftly...

[InFinRetirement]

It is a thought Ham, and a good one, and I would do it if I thought it had a chance. I am copying here the post I put on the other Malgus thread.


Errrrrrr! Just a minute. I would be very happy to see one third of PPRuNer's put in £20 but that is just dreamin'. It wouldn't happen.

The fund stands at around £4600 at the minute and that has taken a long time to accumulate, and I am here to tell you that I have worked hard to get even small amounts of money in, let alone 10,000 people putting £20 each. They would run a mile! Even further. Especially in today's circumstances.

It would pay for sponsorships but that's where the similarity ends I am afraid.

However, who knows? I am still working at it and I will get more cash coming in - eventually. I still have 470 TSR2 prints, and even badges are not selling as they did.

But rest assured I will not give up.


Having said that there is something I am working on and I will see what can be done with it.

More to come on that in due course. Maybe!

[The Graduate]

I have been doing a load of research the last few days about Malgus. I have been in touch with Trading Standards and Scottish Enterprise in the last few days (sorry Malgus but have to be certain before handing over my money).

The posts by Malgus towards the top of this page concerns me! Not the bit about the bank and the money but the bit about "we ARE supported by Scottish Enterprise..." I have been talking to people at S.E. including the project managers for Malgus at SE. They have said to me several times that "We do not SUPPORT malgus or offer any kind of security. We have simply offered business advise". They say that they have not even provided any money for IT hardware or personnel as someone earlier suggested. They have done a director search for me and say that there is not connection with the Take Flight scheme and the malgus directors. They are doing more research for me. I wil keep you posted.

Trading standards could not help too much. They cannot research too much when just one or two people get in touch with them about a certain Company. They did say however that the only way to have any guarenteed comeback on your money would be to pay by credit card. If the Malgus couldn't or didn't return the money then the card insurance *should* pay up on grounds of "breach of contract".

If it interests anyone I think I have decided to not pay up this time.this time I am going to wait. If they are legit then they will probably have enough people to put at least one person through. If they run it again after this then I (along with lots of others I think) will apply!

I will keep you informed of any developments in my research...


The Graduate


PS Some of you are not being very clever with what M.A.L.G.U.S. stands for. Do you have nothing better to do with your time??

I think it is more likely from the names of the directors maybe??? But then I may be wrong.... but their names are MALcolm and AnGUSGUSMAL

[The Guvnor]

The Graduate - thanks for confirming what I reported earlier re Scottish Enterprise.

I understand that WWW is trying to establish their current status and will hopefully report back soon; and I also heard on Friday - actually from one of the SE people - that Strathclyde's finest were paying them a visit.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Malgus are returning all cheques received and hope to re-launch the scheme next year.

WWW