Delta FO Alledgedly Tests Drunk at ORF

[Airbubba]

I can see why some pax have a question in their minds these days. Another in a continuing series:


____________________________________________


Norfolk co-pilot taken off plane for alcohol level
By MATTHEW ROY, The Virginian-Pilot

December 26, 2002
Last updated 6:30 PM Dec. 26

The co-pilot of a Delta airline flight tested positive for alcohol after he was removed from a plane at Norfolk International Airport while performing pre-flight checks early Thursday morning.

A test administered by airport police revealed that the co-pilot, 42-year-old Gary Schroeder of Yorktown, had a blood-alcohol level of 0.07 percent, said Ken Scott, executive director of the Norfolk airport authority.

The Federal Aviation Administration's limit for a flight crew member is 0.04 percent. By comparison, the legal limit for driving in Virginia is 0.08.

Schroeder, who cooperated with airport police, was issued a summons for violating a city code that makes it illegal for an aircraft pilot to be under the influence of alcohol, Scott said. The statute applies to planes "in operation on the airport.''

Schroeder was not taken into custody.

Delta's local manager notified the airline, and the co-pilot was then put on a flight to Delta's headquarters in Atlanta, Scott said. He was accompanied by the pilot he had been scheduled to fly with, he said.

Schroeder came to the attention of authorities when a screener at a security checkpoint detected the odor of alcohol. The screener notified a supervisor, who spoke with Schroeder and also noted the odor, Scott said.

Airport screeners, who work for the federal Transportation Security Administration, did not have the authority to detain Schroeder, Scott said. He went on to board the plane while screeners notified airport police.

Police boarded the plane and asked Schroeder to come to a secure area, Scott said. Delta's local station manager accompanied Schroeder there. Schroeder agreed to blow into an alcohol-detection device.

Delta spokesman John Kennedy said the airline is investigating the incident, which delayed Flight 739 for about 55 minutes. The flight, bound for Cincinnati, had been scheduled to take off at 6:05 a.m.

After the delay, it took off with a different flight crew, Kennedy said.

"We're aware of an incident this morning and we're conducting an internal investigation,'' he said.

He declined to comment further.

FAA rules bar pilots from drinking alcohol for a certain number of hours before flying, said Donald J. Bartnik, the TSA's local security director. A pilot who breaks the rules faces serious sanctions, including the loss of license, he said.

Scott said that Schroeder is due in General District Court Jan. 9.

[Airbubba]

Another account from the Washington Post:


Delta Pilot Accused of Alcohol Violation in Norfolk


By Sylvia Moreno
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 27, 2002; Page B03



A Delta Airlines pilot was pulled off an airplane at Norfolk International Airport yesterday morning and then failed two breath tests for alcohol, the head of the airport authority said.

Ken Scott, executive director of the Norfolk Airport Authority, identified the pilot as Gary Alan Schroeder, 42, of Yorktown, Va. Schroeder had a blood-alcohol level of 0.07, Scott said. Federal Aviation Administration regulations forbid a flight crew member to operate an airplane within eight hours of drinking alcohol or with a blood-alcohol level higher than 0.04.

Schroeder had been assigned to co-pilot Delta Flight 739, which was scheduled to leave Norfolk for Cincinnati at 6:05 a.m.

Scott said baggage screeners detected alcohol on Schroeder's breath when he arrived at the airport about 5:15 a.m. Screeners notified airport police, who went to the cockpit and began talking with Schroeder as he made preflight checks.

After detecting alcohol on Schroeder's breath, police asked him to submit voluntarily to a breath test, Scott said.

Schroeder agreed and went to the airport police office and took the test. Police then asked a Delta service manager to go to the office, and Schroeder was asked to take the breath test again with the other employee as a witness. The second test registered the same blood-alcohol level, Scott said.

"He was very cooperative," Scott said of the pilot. "He didn't say anything, but he didn't resist or wasn't belligerent or anything."

Scott said Schroeder agreed to board a flight to Delta headquarters in Atlanta, accompanied by the captain of the original crew of Flight 739. A new crew was found for the Cincinnati flight, which took off about 55 minutes late.

A spokeswoman for Delta Airlines would confirm only that a "crew-related incident" occurred on Flight 739 from Norfolk to Cincinnati.

"Delta's taking the incident very seriously, and we're conducting a thorough investigation into the matter," Patsy Mulcahy said. "We will follow strict policies and procedures on this matter, and we won't be able to comment further until our investigation is complete."

An FAA spokeswoman would only say that the incident was under investigation. Penalties for alcohol-related violations, if confirmed, are usually suspension and revocation of the pilot's license, Laura Brown said.

"We have the ability to prevent the pilot from flying again," Brown said, "but we don't have criminal jurisdiction in a matter like this."

The pilot was issued a summons charging him with violating a Norfolk city code that makes it illegal for a pilot to be under the influence of alcohol while operating or attempting to operate an aircraft. A preliminary hearing was set for Jan. 9 in Norfolk General Circuit Court.

Brown said the FAA requires airlines to conduct random drug and alcohol testing of pilots and other safety-sensitive personnel, such as baggage handlers. The airlines are required to randomly test 10 percent of such employees for alcohol and 20 percent for drugs annually.

"For the last couple of years, at least, none of the pilots randomly tested turned up positive," Brown said.

[Heliport]

"Drunk"? :confused:
A blood-alcohol level of 0.07 percent.
By comparison, the legal limit for driving in Virginia is 0.08
Drunk? :rolleyes:
That's just the sort of melodramatic misleading headline we condemn the downmarket newspapers for using.

[Unwell_Raptor]

Don't let's play shoot the messenger again. 0.07 blood alcohol is against the rules, and is a level that is acknowledged to cause a marked degradation of performance. In many states the BAC limit for a car is 0.05. The pilot may not have been rolling drunk, but his performance was impaired by alcohol - and one word for that is drunk. This all assumes of course that the reports are correct.

Nevertheless, a personal tragedy. I hope that the employer has a programme to help the pilot sort himself out - nevertheless there are a lot of people who will have no sympathy whatever.

[Anthony Carn]

The UK flying alchohol limits are very "low". It could be argued that any blood alchohol is too much !

Easy to be over the limit these days. If in doubt, suggest you check with your company medical officer as to how much you can drink before flying. Be ready to be amazed at how easy it is to be over the limit !

[OldAg84]

What I noted was different "this time" versus other similar incidents is the amount of detail published immediately in the news- name, etc. That usually comes out a little later. That's unfortunate, I think- it amounts to besmirching one's reputation right off the bat- before they have their day in court so to speak.

Anyway you slice it, it's not a good thing.

[Airbubba]

>>"Drunk"?
A blood-alcohol level of 0.07 percent.
By comparison, the legal limit for driving in Virginia is 0.08 <<

Perhaps you misunderstood, he was about to pilot an airliner, not driving to work in an automobile. Not sure if you're a pilot, but the limits for flying tend to be lower in most countries.

In the U.S. .02 is sufficient for removal from duty, .04 is enough to lose your license and medical and be subject to criminal penalties. As always, the lawyers will have a field day looking for technicalities and loopholes in the termination and revocation procedures. Of course, there is the very human aspect of trying to help the individual recover from his ethanol dependency.

I apologize for not using a more politically correct term for the FO's alleged condition. If he gets fired I'll say he's on unpaid leave with issues concerning his continued employment...

[Flying Lawyer]

"As always, the lawyers will have a field day looking for technicalities and loopholes in the termination and revocation procedures."
I agree Airbubba. Terrible people these lawyers. Obviously no decent person would dream of trying to help this pilot who's found himself in trouble, but no doubt some lawyer will soon be trying to help him save his job/career. It's a disgrace. It shouldn't be allowed in a civilised society.

[JJflyer]

I seem to remeber that there was the " 8 hours from bottle to throttle" rule in the FAR´s. Also remeber FAR´s saying something about "Not under the influence of alcohol". With no traceable alcohol in your blood, but with hangover symptoms you are techically under the influence of alcohol.

Strange how these rules change. In the 1960´s some airlines where still offering beer to pilots with their lunch and dinner while flying. When did Air France stop serving wine with their meals?

[whatshouldiuse]

All;

First of all, let me say whether you're driving, flying or taking a scooter to work, over the limit means over the limit.

What baffles me here is that two different groups of people smelt alcohol on his breath. Short of taking a drink after showering, brushing your teeth etc. how the hell would the smell be picked up anywhere unless the guy was on Vicks, medicine etc?

Andy

[slim_slag]

Strange how these rules change. In the 1960´s some airlines where still offering beer to pilots with their lunch and dinner while flying. When did Air France stop serving wine with their meals?

As recently as the early 80's I was on a UK charter flight to Greece, and my friends and I were drinking some of that cheap wine they sold to you in the back. One of my mates sent a couple of glasses up to the front, and not long after we were invited to the flight deck for a look around, and the pilots were drinking it:eek:! Nasty wine too, I would have hoped they had better taste.

[Cyclic Hotline]

With the way the Internet works today, you can read the arrest documents (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/doc_o_day/doc_o_day.shtml) online already!

Wouldn't want to get caught doing anything anymore!

[britannia66]

A question (perhaps for FLYING LAWYER); what exactly are the FAA, CAA and JAA alcohol limits? Also, how do these numbers translate for the social drinker?
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ironbutt57]

Problem with all this is it all depends on your body mass index, and your metabolic rate as to how much you can drink, then have a "legal" 8 hour abstention, then have a bac below .04...probably no two individuals are alike....24 hour abstention is my personal rule...plenty of time for a few belts on days off....why bother when down route? not worth the hassle for sure

[charlyvictor]

It also depends on the speed of drinking - there still might be an alternative explanation to the case.

I know of a case (not in the US) where a woman was supposed to lose her driver's license because when checked by police in her car her blood alcohol level was ca. 2.0 She insisted all she drank was 1 glass of wine. When she's found a lawyer who believed her he consequently checked with specialist medical scientists and found out that blood alcohol level also much depends on the speed of drinking.
The lawyer then made a special demonstration before the court. At first a MD checked the lawyer's blood alcohol which was 0. Then the lawyer drank 1 glass of wine quickly and had his blood alcohol checked again: It's gone up more or less to the amount his client had when checked by police.
This particular effect's got to do with oxygen, don't ask me the details.
Ths case was won by the lawyer.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Pilots are kept for reasons of safety, and rewarded quite handsomely for their efforts. If a pilot has problems keeping off alcohol 12-24 hours before a flight, then he or she has no place in aviation. The "8 hours from throttle to bottle" rule can not be used. If I go on a all night drinking session and was to report for duty 8 hours later, I would still be under the influence. If I had a single beer, no problem. If a person, who's most important task is the safety of his passengers and crew, is unable to make a judgement call on something as simple as alcohol consumption, then he has no place in aviation.

[Chevy-SS]

where I am flying no drinking is allowed whatsoever.....12 hours before the flight nothing allowed.....24 hours befor the eflight very moderate

We have alcohol tests on weekly bases....and when you have the test you better be sure to have 0.00 in your blood or they kick you out of the airline and the country within 24 hours.........

What I do regret is that the guys namesas been smothered outin the papers and the internet.....is that really necessary?

[ironbutt57]

charly victor..i hope you mean .20 in any event, no matter how it is reached, a blood alcohol content of 2.0 or .20 would render one under the influence, if the lady won the case...our system failed...i can become rather enebriated off one beer as well..if i poke a hole in the bottom of the can, then tip it up, and pull the tab...only one beer...but the bac is suddenly elevated...it's not the quantity consumed, but rather the bac which puts one under the influence...which again, is most affected by one's bmi...

[whatshouldiuse]

Doesn't matter about the body's ability to digest alcohol here, two different parties smelt alcohol on this individual's breath.

I'm probably one of the most liberal people you could ever meet, but if this person was working for me, I'd love to know where the smell came from. Could be medicine, deodorant or just not brushing the teeth...

All I would ask this person if they were working for me is "How come you smelt like alcohol?" and with an open mind I'd wait for the answers.

Andy

[QuackDriver]

I guess with the current atmosphere and approach irrespective of the law it's safer for aircrew just not to - One beer at lunch and bang goes the career. What a way to end it.

You fight to get in the programme, spend 10s of thousands to qualify and then chuck it all away on something so insignificant.

:(

[Ignition Override]

Was the other (or any) pilot not with him when the security guy noticed a suspiscious smell? If not, he was certainly on his own.

But if another pilot was present, he/she should have told the guy to immediately leave the airport and head home or to a hotel, then tell Crew Scheduling that he was sick. This can help save such a fool's career and allow the person to declare himself an alcoholic, and get into treatment, assuming that he had not consumed cough medicine etc. There have been cases in the US where careers were lost because the people did not admit to having a drinking problem.

If you ever become suspiscious of this condition, keep them away from any airplane. This should be the first priority, and it helps prevent media from learning about it and also publishing an airline's name.

If the allegations are true, and if there had been past indications of a problem, did nobody contact the Delta MEC's special staff, which can decide to intervene?

[charlyvictor]

ironbutt: it was 2.0 from quickly drinking one glass of wine.

[Wino]

Charleyvictor.

What you saw demonstrated there I suspect was a demonstration of Alchohol in someone's mouth. I believe a blood Alchohol test can be followed up with a blood test which woud not elevate so quickly.

Furthermore a blood alcohol level of 2.0 would most likely be fatal.

Cheers
Wino

[britannia66]

Will someone please answer my question: what are the CAA, JAA and FAA alcohol blood limits?

[arcniz]

Boil it down, and at the end you have the issue of judgement.

Pilots at work are expected by the authorities, the flying public, and their peers in aviation to have and to exercise especially careful common sense, discipline, and judgement in the conduct of their duties.

Lacking that, one just doesn't belong in the game.

[Huck]

Arcniz: some irony for you: Delta is notorious for a "personality profile" screening test administered during the hiring process. It has dashed the hopes of many who had already passed the intelligence and aviation tests (myself included).

So, whatever DAL Flight Ops may say about this guy - he passed their precious phsychological test....

[PaperTiger]

FAA limit is .04 as stated in the FAR (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=14&PART=91&SECTION=17&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT) (14 CFR 91.17)

[dolly737]

For most airline pilots, 3 (three!) regulations apply simultaneously:

1. The government/state rule (most commonly 0.04% and 8 hours)
2. gov and/or company rules ("...not under the influence of...")
3. Company rules - e.g. 10 hours, and between 12 and 10 hours only one glass of beer/wine.

Company rules usually have a legal liability since they are written down as a FOM!


happy landings

[Vsf]

Brittannia66:

FAA limit is 0.04 percent blood alchohol content.

[ph-heineken]

Yo britannia66,

Check http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars_toc.html to see the JAR regulations...

g'day!

By the way, disregard my name in this case folks!

:D ;)

[arcniz]

Huck:

They may have done you a service, even tho I'm sure it hurt at the time. Pity they did not give you some useful advance warning. But hey, their marbles, their rules.

In my experience, any operation that relies very much on personality tests or other sorts of psychodynamic ouiji magic is looking for a pattern of conformity that tends to filter out the free-er spirits, regardless of their competence or overall quality as humans. What they get, in return, are people who are skillful at faking the flavor of conformity being sought. Your namesake would have had little time for such folks, given the absurdity of the premise.

[Huck]

Arcniz - you speak well, grasshopper. I take comfort in the fact that they probably detected excess personality in me.

It was providence, however. I am in a much better place, and my DAL buddies (and UAL, and USAir....) are asking for help to come over to the big ramp on the other side of the airport.

[arcniz]

Huck:

So the wind shifts and the tarmac turns greener on the other side, eh?

Hope you can help some of them find a new berth.

There's no luck that is greater for the spirit than the chance to be genuinely magnanimous. The choice of generosity over spite feels good, keeps well, and can't ever be taxed.

[charlyvictor]

Wino:
what scientists told the lawyer was:1 glass of wine consumed quickly results in a much higher blood alcohol level than slow consumption.
And that's what the lawyer demonstrated on himself in court.
I suppose we're dealing here with a physiological law.
Also: Y're right: 2.0 blood alcohol is wrong.
The case happened in Germany where blood alcohol is measured
in "promille". The woman had 2 "promille", 4 times over the limit.
I suppose that's 0.2 of what you meant, or someone please correct me...:(
Very sorry for the confusion. Happy New Year everybody!

[Jump Complete]

Whilst I would have a great deal of sympathy for anyone that had a alcohol problem, (and I have known a couple of people close to me with serious problems) I would find it hard to be sympathetic with a pilot who drinks even one beer before duty. Why, for christs sakes?
But what I would like to know is, would a blood alcohol level such as 0.07 be indicative of recent, modereate drinking, such as one beer, or glass of wine, say within the last 4 hours, or of perhaps 3 pints of beer over 12 hours before.
I would have a lot more sympathy with the pilot concered if he'd perhaps had one more beer than he meant to and reported for duty the next day feeling 100% and not affected but was still registering alcahol in his system.

[ironbutt57]

At the end of the day, doesn't matter how it got there fast or slow, whether you "feel" it or not, if the bac is over .04...your technically under the influence as per the FAA..

[griffinblack]

In the australian Defence Force we have defence instruction that require us to have a zero percent BAL and nil effects of alcohol. As most of you will be aware, the vestibular system can be effected by alcohol for several days after a big night. That is why it is hard to remain wings level the next afternoon.

In the distant past it was known for military pilots to be somewhat creative with the regulations regarding drinking. But in this day and age there is simply no excuss. If someone is pissed, and a BAL of 0.7 is a level that provides severly impared function, you suffer the consequences.

I have very little sympathy with the individual involved, if indeed the alligation is true. Particulalry, after the individual was previously challenged and then continued with about his merry way.

Councilling -yes. Kick in the ass - yes. sack him - possibly. The message needs to be made to all and sundry - this is not acceptable.

[Ignition Override]

Edited due to lack of interest in debating.

[tsgas]

Delta Air Lines were all too familiar with what occured at Eastern Air Lines.There was no way in hell that they were going to risk their company's future with some of the same people that helped DESTROY EASTERN.It was just a good business decision on the part of DAL and a very poor one on the part of the ALPA members at EAL.

[GordonBurford]

Good question.

Just that the hell DOES an Airline pilot do if he loses his licence?

It's not like there are many transferable skills, is it? You've got an intelligent, capable, educated, hard-working person who just happens to have skills he is legally prohibited from using. So what does he do? Ground-based "Theory" instructor seems logical.

But flying drugs for the mob, or for airlines to small to give a hoot about licences, (or in countries where it doesn't matter) sounds more romantic.... but much less plausable!

[jet_noseover]

HELSINKI (Reuters) - Two Lufthansa pilots have tested positive for alcohol consumption last month after crew members alerted police shortly before the flight was due to take off from Helsinki, Finnish authorities have said.
Prosecutor Juha-Mikko Hamalainen said on Friday the tests showed some alcohol in the pilots' blood, but declined to say how much.

"Under Finnish law, they could face either a fine or imprisonment of up to two years," Hamalainen told Reuters. He said he expected the investigation to end next week.

International regulations prohibit pilots and flight attendants from flying within eight hours of consuming alcohol, while Lufthansa, along with most other airlines, has set a twelve hour restriction.

Lufthansa spokesman Michael Lamberty said the men, both German, had already left the airline after getting the blood test results.

"In this profession, you can't get away with this...We did not fire them, but they left the company. They won't fly for Lufthansa anymore," Lamberty said.

He said this was first such case he had heard of involving German pilots.


source: http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=J5D4CBZQLHSQUCRBAELCFFA?type=wo rldNews&storyID=1987571

[Airbubba]

>>Just that the hell DOES an Airline pilot do if he loses his licence?


He hires an attorney and goes to rehab:
___________________________

On March 9, 1990, Northwest pilot Norman Lyle Prouse saw, as he later put it, "the end of my career ahead of me." The previous evening, an anonymous tipster had called the local Federal Aviation Administration office to report that Prouse and his crew were tossing back drink after drink at the Speak Easy lounge in a Minnesota suburb of Fargo, N.D. -- even though they were scheduled to fly a plane to Minneapolis at 6:30 the following morning. The FAA's "bottle-to-throttle" rule prohibits drinking within eight hours of take-off, so when they arrived at the airport, the men were met by an FAA inspector. The inspector was concerned by their bloodshot eyes and alcoholic breath -- not to mention the deep gash on Prouse's forehead. But the inspector mistakenly believed he lacked the authority to stop the crew from flying the plane, a Boeing 727 with 58 passengers on board.

Prouse took off in sleet and rain and landed in Minneapolis without incident. There the crew was met by more investigators who conducted blood tests. The crew swore they had had only a few drinks the night before and left the bar by 8:30 at the latest. But lab tests proved otherwise. Prouse had a blood level of .13 percent -- higher than both the FAA's .04 limit for pilots and the .10 level Minnesota uses to define drunk driving. It turned out that Prouse had not left the bar until 11:30, by which time he had knocked off between 15 and 19 rum and cokes and fallen off his chair and cut his head. Prouse, you see, was an alcoholic.

Prouse immediately entered rehab and hired a lawyer [as did the America West pilots in MIA]. The aviation press was incensed at the many rationalizations offered in Prouse's defense -- particularly the argument that, after all, he had landed the plane safely [he claimed his Native American ancestry made him disposed to alcoholism, that as an alcoholic he was less affected than a non-alcoholic by the booze]. They had a point. After all, the true test of safety in the air is not whether you can manage the long boring stretches, but whether you're ready for the unexpected. The judge was equally unimpressed with Prouse's arguments and sentenced him to more than a year in prison.

But Prouse's pessimism about his career prospects proved unwarranted. That's because the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) protects alcoholics who enter rehab. Although Northwest could have tried to take shelter under an exception, it chose to bow to the spirit of the law. Northwest rehired Prouse as soon as he was released from jail. And in July 1995 the company quietly confirmed that Prouse had returned to flying passenger jets [he retired from NWA as a 744 captain]...


http://walterolson.com/articles/washmdrink.html

______________________________________


Captain Prouse was fully pardoned by Clinton in the infamous last minute list as Bush II took power:


http://news.corporate.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/clinton/pardons/prouse012001egc.pdf

[GordonBurford]

Christ...

you could argue that, after rehab, he might be a perfectly sober, sane competant pilot. you might even have a point. But i'd think twice about booking a Northwest ticket, if that's the standard they work to.

[whatshouldiuse]

Gordon;

Not exactly what your dig about not flying NWA meant but please don't blame the minority for the majority.

I've flown, and continue to fly Northwest along with most other U.S / British carriers without any worries.

Me thinks you need to change your attitude mate. Most pilots are upstanding, decent, fair-minded people like I am.

Andy

[Willie Nelson]

I got pulled over on my motorcycle some years back now. On that occasion I was doubling a good friend of mine, and I can now say that I was speeding, not by a lot mind you, however this brought me some unwanted attention from the local constabulary. I managed to talk my way out of the ticket as he had no proof (he was right) as a matter of course however he did the customary random breath test.

I had not been drinking any alcohol whatsoever, no Lemon Lime and bitters, no old jamacian rum and raisin chocolate not pudding....

I had however just eaten a chicken and mayonaise roll, for which there was a lot of mayonaise in the roll. You could hav knocked me over with a feather when I was told that I registered 0.03 (When I had my provisional licence in New South Wales, Australia I was only allowed 0.02)

I had just recently gone back to school to study, and during this time I had studied chemistry. I learnt about the ethanoate ion and how (from what I remember) one end of this ion is exactly the same as the same end of the ethanol ion. the ethanoate ion is present in vinegar which is present in mayonaise which was present in my mouth at the time of the RBT.

I am no expert on this subject but I can only suspect it attatched to the potassium permangenate in the hanheld testing unit and simulated an alcohol content......I am not sure of this.

All I did was rinse my mouthout at a nearby tap and do the test again immediately afterweards providing a reading of 0.00. Much the same as you might do with alcoholic breath spray.

It wouldn't take any weight to court of course because the issue is too easily resolved, just thought I would add my two cents worth.


Willie

[GordonBurford]

This could be the origin of the phrase "They've got more ways to get high then the Air force".

BTW. I wasn't suggest NWA work to a low standard, but i'm surprised they gave this guy his job back. Potential PR nightmare!

People with Alcohol problems can be completely rehabilitated, especially if the root cause of their addiction/self abuse can be identified and suitable help given. A lot of people go through transitory period of over-drinking (I know I have) and they either realise and back off, or pass through that phase or event in their life and stop drinking.