The cockpit door

[kavu]

Hi all and a merry xmas.

After Sep11 last year the doors to the cockpit were closed to everyone. (barr a few exceptions). The doors were supposed to be closed and locked before takeoff and opened after landing.(or there abouts).

I was recently flying to the US and sure enough this was inforced. Good on them.

However I then jumped onboard an United flight around the states and low and behold the door to the cockpit was left open for passengers boarding. Okay I thought they'll close it for taxi and takeoff.

Nope, the door stayed open for the entire flight.

What gives???:( :(

Coming to America the doors are closed but once in America they are left wide open?

Am I missing something here????

[A-V-8R]

I seriously doubt that a UNITED flight departed with the doors open....

but you may have flown on UNITED EXPRESS which, depending on the aircraft, may not have had a cockpit door installed.

If it is United Express, please remember that you are not flying on United, but a contracted subcarrier who cannot afford services like a reservations system. The paint on the aircraft may be the same, but.........

It would be nice if you would email me the date and flight number; I can search the computers and tell you more about your flight.




Merrry Christmas

[vmommo]

If it is United Express, please remember that you are not flying on United, but a contracted subcarrier who cannot afford services like a reservations system. The paint on the aircraft may be the same, but.........


Well, let's hope United can keep afording it.....

As far as I know none of their express carriers are in Chapter 11..

[A-V-8R]

UAL pays their Express partners 16 cents a mile flown. It is on a departure basis, whether or not the airplane is full or empty.

United own seat costs are between 11 & 12 cents a mile, depending on which source you access.

Go figure. I certainly can't.

[kavu]

it was a united flight between LA and chicago.

very friendly crew from san fran. very camp guy who never stopped talking.

and yes the door was left open. the captain came out at least twice to go to the head.

it was an A320.

[Colonel Klink]

I have always been aware that if a US carrier did not lock the door for takeoff, it was a $10,000 fine if an FAA inspector caught them. That was imposed in the 1970's after all the hijackings to Cuba and therefore well before Sept. the 11th hijackings. The rationale was that most hijackings occur soon after takeoff, so to keep the door locked then was paramount. Such behaviour now is foolish, and surely punishable by a much bigger fine?.:rolleyes:

[FlapsOne]

kavu

The fact that the Captain came out to go to the head is not relevant to this debate.

If you gotta go, you gotta go.

[Ignition Override]

Just a question (I usually have several, and would hate to now let anyone down).

With the newer cockpit doors on our twin-turbofan so-called "city-hopper" models, we have NO light or beeper in the cockpit to indicate whether the door is locked or not. We push and pull them after the lead FA closes it. There have been more than a few such planes which have taken off and the door has swung open. It was quite interesting when it happened with an Air Marshal sitting towards the front. You should see the numerous pages in our COM Supplemental section which attempts to explain these doors and the various combinations of functions. Many pilots' understanding of this info is not very clear.

Do some aircraft have indications which tell the crew that the door is locked or not quite locked?

[A-V-8R]

Kavu,

I think what we are talking about is confused by syntax.

At our company, which would be the mainline flight you took from ORD to LAX, the cockpit is locked and barred from pushback to arrival. That procedure has been in effect since the late 70's. Because of Crew interaction, (between Cabin and Cockpit), I cannot imagine the door being left unlocked and unbarred.

However, there are several exemptions which allow the crew to come out during taxi and flight, and I think this is what confuses you.

For instance, mandatory by regulations, to ascertain the conditions of the wings pertaining to de-icing before take off.

For physiological needs, bathroom, perhaps walking to prevent deep vein thrombosis.

To deal with certain irregular procedures.

And there are others which could be justified.

There is a protocol to be followed by both the cockpit and cabin crew if the cockpit dooor is open in flight, however , this forum is not the place to post it.

Inclosing, I'd like to point out that the salient point is not the crew coming out.

It is about other people getting into the cockpit.

[Heliport]

kavu
Since it looks like the Captain could get into trouble for not enforcing the rule (which many people have always thought was stupid anyway) best not to provide any information which could identify him.

[Dunhovrin]

The captain went to the head TWICE from LA to ORD. Weenie.

[turbspeed]

As we all know, the locking of our cockpit doors at all times are a MUST now. Some airline, or rather ONE airline I know practices this at the expense of the ASSIST CABIN CREW. Right after his/her safety demo in the cabin, this person rushes towards the cockpit and occupies one of the jumpseat just to operate the latches which were recently retrofitted to the cockpit doors. This person will only leaves the cocpit after the seatbelt sign's switched off and one of the pilots gets to leave his seat to latch the door during climb, cruise and descent. For any nature call, the pilot shall be replaced by any cabin crew member to safeguard the door from inside until he comes back. SAFETY IS UNCOMPROMISEABLE but will this sort of practices help????

[Kalium Chloride]

I still think the decision on flight-deck access should be the captain's. He (or she) is responsible for just about every other safety aspect of the aircraft while in flight, so I don't see why this one should be up to the government.

[Notso Fantastic]

I suggest you add your comments to the long discussions that have run in the past rather than start a new thread on this hacked to death subject. For a start, why not be a bit more precise about what airline you are talking about and what your criticism is and what you suggest doing about people whose ambition is to kill as many innocents as possible?

[Tcas climb]

The goverment decides minimum requirement about everything Kalium Cloride:
Your education
How your check ride is build up
What your crew composition is
Your fuel requirements
Your oilrequirements
Your minimum weather requirements
Your alternate requirements
Your blood alcohol level
Your minimum rest requirements
How the aircraft you fly is build
And I could keep on going

You name it the goverments regulate it.

[fiftyfour]

In addition to what tcas climb says:

and if something goes wrong it will be the company, or you that has to defend itself in court against claims from passengers or others. The government makes the rules but neatly avoids being actually legally responsible for anything.

[Kalium Chloride]

Point taken, Tcas, but I still think there's a difference between basic overall regulated requirements and the on-board operational decisions which are left to the people who know best, ie the crew.

[Tcas climb]

I remember a lot discussions after 9-11, most were, should we or should'nt we lock the door. I used to fly with the door open also during taxi and almost all cabin crew liked it. But most cabin crew also like that the door is now locked, they are very aware that we are not supermen, that will come rescue them if a highjacker put a knife to their throat. The reason for this is that the cabin crew knows that the potentional highjacker knows that is how it is.

The determined, with no regard for him self and anyone else, highjacker is offcause harder to to deal with and carefull considderation, about how to deal with such a sitiuation, should have been done by all flightcrew.

What I'm saying is that comen rules makes procedures simple, but I'll give you, it's stupid that crew can not sit in cockpit jumpseats.

[Roadtrip]

Sorry. I just don't believe it. The door is required to be closed and locked. I can't believe any Captain would put his job on the line by violating a FAR so flagrantly where everyone could see it. I also can't believe that the cabin crew and F/O would take him to task for it. If a captain I flew with didn't close and lock the door, according to company and FAR regulations, you can bet that aircraft might go somewhere sometime, but not with me inside it. And then the captain could explain to the chief pilot why his F/O walked off the aircraft and used the jetbridge phone to call union professional standards and the company's chief pilot.

[Tcas climb]

Roadtrip, as we don't fly according to FAR rules all over the world and our company procedures let it be up to the captain weather the door should be closed or open, I chose the latter. We quite often had cockpit visits during cruise and Joe pupblic apreiciated it!

[FlapsOne]

Roadtrip

The whole world is not governed by FAR rules. In fact a very large chunk is not.

Thank God.

[Tcas climb]

I don't know if it was evident enough from my previous postings, but before 9-11 it was up to the captain weather or not the door was open, closed or locked. After 9-11 we now fly with locked doors, from cabin clear signal to parking brake on after ended flight.

[ChrisVJ]

Just because the horse bolted once does not make it sensible to leave the stable door open now.

This debate is surely now moot. It went the rounds in the eighties, and it went the rounds in the nineties. If cabin doors had been barred as a matter of procedure for all that time 9-11 would never have happened, it would not have been worth trying and then all the millions wasted on window dressing 'security' and all the inconvenience and stupidity of the last couple of years would never have happened. And Oh yes! A large chunk of the aviation industry would be a lot healthier financially than it is today.

Oh, and another thing, my kids would still be able visit the occasional cockpit, after the appropriate checks.

A plague on all of you who put your vanity or your comfort above the safety of your passengers.

[Tinstaafl]

ChrisVJ,

You seem to have missed the point.

The USA already had a locked door/restricted access policy that had been in effect for around 15-20 years.

In all that time there have been only a few cases where approved access to the cockpit was used for nefarious purposes.

The locked door policy didn't stop the 11/9 hijackers, none of whom were part of the 'approved access' crowd. Nor could it.

Up until then guidelines & recommendations ALL advised cooperation with hijackers, with the intent of getting the aircraft on the ground where negotiations could take place. After all, the a/c's time in the air is finite.

The 11/9 hijackers changed the 'accepted' norm.

They were able to assume control of the a/c because current policy specified that cooperation is appropriate.

It matters not whether they boarded with box cutters or whatever. Just about anything would have served as a weapon. Glass bottles (think how many are on board or are available by the thousands at the duty free), an innocuous strip of metal eg those often found in spring steel clips or on folders, even a sharp pencil or fountain pen would have sufficed to slice someone's throat open. Shall I mention safety razors? Or karate?

All that was needed was a means of threat + demonstration of willingness to proceed with the threat ie slice the throat of the nearest flight attendant or passenger, and cooperation that includes access to the flight deck was assured.

It was the then policy of cooperation that was instrumental in their gaining control, not the discression about who is allowed up front.

Of all the thousands upon thousands of flight deck visitors or jump seat rides how many resulted in 11/9 events? None.

Meanwhile we have the ludicrous situation of flight & cabin crew being searched for inane items are deemed to be offensive weapons or being refused access to the jumpseat, conveniently forgetting that we already have access to the flight deck just by turning up for work.

Idiot rules devised by bureaucratic idiots in the name of some laudable goal doesn't excuse the idiots.

[ChrisVJ]

I don't disagree Tinstaafl, in fact I agree, (Pedant!) While I dislike the policy expounded by the US (No negotiation, ) and probably they break their own rules too, in the end, the very end, no negotiation it has to be. People will die as victims of this policy, it may be me, it may be people I love, mostly we don't get to choose, it is, like the victims of war or terrorism, mostly random. In the very end it is probably the only viable policy. unless we want to be subject to everyone with the most minor grudge, ( or unless you have a way to remove all the causes of such grudges.)

There was a lot of debate in the eighties ( or was it earlier, it seems like last year as I'm getting rather old,) about cockpit doors and security. Like nearly all 'preventions' all the steps have to be in place.
1. Secure door.
2. Policy and procedure to maintain and use it.
3. Policy and procedure if terrorists gain the cabin.
4. Appropriate passenger screening ( and I don't mean the farce we are going thru now.)



I freely admit I did not foresee 911 but there are people whose job it is to foresee these things and ( with hindsight) it was not very 'unforeseeable.' They should have bitten the bullet. That ounce of prevention might have saved this pound of cure.

I was not questioning the stupidity of banishing flight crew or other screened personel, I even think appropriate other visitors should be allowed. Howerver it is manifestly stupid to fly with the cockpit door open all the time. Far too easy to walk up as though going to the head, take one step further and hold pretty well anything sharp under a pilot's chin and basically the plane is yours.

I miss the cockpit visits. My first was to stand beside Nancy in the pointy nose of a Dragon Rapide as we flew down the Thames and banked around the Tower of London on the 5 pound sightseeing trip from Heathrow. There was no security check for that flight, any way I don't think any one would have dared.