University of Newcastle Aviation Program

[Uniflyer]

It seems that the University of Newcastle will shut down its aviation program. This is quite sad because it was the first University program in Australia and it was the best.

[Checkerboard]

Newcastle Uni course was one of the best until a new head of Dept. took over around '93 with no aviation background,and things have just gone down hill since then. All the good lecturers started to leave end of '95 as they saw the way things were going i imagine.:(

[Hornetboy]

RMIT's degree course down in Melbourne is closing down as well. What's happening with these things??

[CurtissJenny]

I seem to recall that the Newcastle Uni aviation course was a carry over from the NASA operation at Cesnock.

Interesting to see that the Newcastle Uni, the Southern Cross Uni and now the Melbourne based RMIT course have all been reported as winding down their aviation courses. Are there others ?

A specific reason has not been stated on this forum so one can only speculate as to the real reasons.

If we are to speculate could it be because there are too many UNIs' and TAFEs' running aviation programs for students who all have the same aim - that of getting into QF. There used to be Ansett AND Qantas but those days have now gone.

The end result is that with such a number of tertiery education facilities all competing for a reduced (reducing ?) number of students all aiming for the same thing, that of getting into Qantas.

I for one would be very interested to know just how many new pilots Qantas has taken on board each year for say the last four years.
I feel sure it could not be the hundreds that are aiming for a flight crew position with QF.

[drshmoo]

Why would people be interested to enroll in mickey mouse courses at backyard universities? The idea of getting a degree is to be proud of the piece of paper it is written on, not just being proud of your ability to fill in the coupon. In New South Wales there are 2/3 REAL universities, UNSW, USYD and UTS. There is only one aviation course at these choices, so kiddies, do yourself a favour and enroll in REAL uni course, not just a mail order backyard, kellogs cornflakes deal.
However I do empathise with UNIFLYER, as do we all at UNSW - it must be hard offering an Av Degree in our "wake"
The Good Dr

[Uniflyer]

It is true that most Universities scale down their aviation programs. Does that mean that our Universities are too rigit, stupid or incompetent to adapt to something modern and futuristic? Let's face it, pilots are not only needed in Australia and overseas business could be attracted.

In the case of Newcastle Uni it is amazing to learn that they only have one lecturer who knows about aviation and he is on a one year contract only. There was an ex aero club CFI on contract who had no clue about aviation academics. The aviation experience of the man who is in charge of the program is limited to two joyrides as passenger with the Air Force in a Mirage, he was a junior engineering officer there.

I have been told too that the Newcastle aviation department had all their funds taken away to support psychology.

drshmoo is a really charming fellow. He obviously feels that any Uni not located in Sydney or Melbourne is not a real Uni. Gee, I wonder how many medicos, lawyers and others found their degree in a cornflakes packet....

When it comes to aviation training the so called cornflakes packet is somewhere else. People who get most of their degree credit points by attending commercial training organisations for their aviation training and only attend the last year at the Uni have got their degree from a cornflakes packet since they have the degree from a Uni which only rubber stamps commpercial schools training.

How many students do the Sydney Unis have now? It isn't that great, is it? I wonder how UWS would have fared without people like Irene Hanley, Scott Taylor e.t.c., all from Newcastle.

May be drshmoo should be less aggressive spitting on others, aggression clouds the judgement.

[drshmoo]

Dear Uniflyer
I, Drshmoo agree that any degree where you can go and train at the learn to fly with mickey mouse school, pass a **** weak CPL test (possibly by chance), where the schools only care about cash flow and not quality training gives you half, if not more of the credit points required to obtain your cornflakes packet Av degree. I think that to have true quality control, there needs to be an in-house training school, manned by the cream of the industry and hell bent on producing quality pilots to the industry. By doing this there is a real standard. Right on the money UNIFLYER;)

Oh and uniflyer, where i stand its CAVOK mate, regardless of so called aggressive tones. :rolleyes:

ps - I didn't mention UWS at all, i would prefer to go to UNI Newcastle anyday b4 UWS. :confused:

[*Lancer*]

CurtissJenny, you make some interesting points. Qantas however have indeed been recruiting the 'hundreds' over the last years... there is a seperate thread in DG Reporting points about the QF intake of late. :)

drshmoo, your comments are clearly not founded. Have you been to UWS or Newcastle? I think you will find that these Universities do not have application forms on the back of Kellogs boxes, and you serve only to lower the perceived intelligence of UNSW students. 'Backyard' Universities are not defined by their distance from your sheltered Sydney upbringing. :rolleyes:

Checkerboard, is pretty close to the crux of the issue:

When the DR took over in '93 he had big plans for the program. For a number of years I think the degree continued to do very well. The DR forged very strong ties with the boss of the local airline of the times, paving the way for a very profitable and publicised recruitment program. This relationship would have seen the degree secured ad-infinitum but for two things:

1) The pilot body was a separate contracting organisation, not particularly fond of young Uni graduates jumping into the RHS of their turboprops, and;

2) The boss saw a more profitable route for his airline to take within the Australian domestic market, and apparently lost interest in the Uni ties.

The potential relationship (and obvious ramifications) was always indirectly communicated to the students right up until it ceased. Since then many of the staff have gradually been seeking greener pastures, leaving the Uni with a shortage of qualified staff. The outsourcing of lecturers was perhaps indicative of the reducing health of the degree. Additionally, the adminstrative location of the program was shifted to a separate School where it was apparently subjected to the agendas of that particular department.

The halt of student intake at Newcastle, and closure of other degrees signals an aviation academic industry shift in thinking, and a change in focus of aviation degrees. If the Newcastle Uni powers that be recognise the advantages, and give the program a chance, the benefits for everyone are huge.

Uniflyer, the man you refer to has an enormously strong engineering background which can be an advantage if supported by staff of other backgrounds. The previous 'guy-in-charge', was remembered more for his significant navigation and human factors experience, rather than his CPL.

Lancer

[drshmoo]

thank you "lancer" but what I said was a little tongue in cheek :p and as for my sheltered sydney upbringing??? I was raised in the wastelands of freezing Siberia and I didn't even learn english till I was 18 and went to school in Syd. My father was a poor goat hurder. Then went to uni then bush for work but keep the stereo types goin!!:rolleyes:

[drshmoo]

Hey "Drphil" ive not limited myself to sydney. Not at all. Im working flying planes in the bush for a good operator doing max hours, not maxing out on throwing luggage. ;) In fact this is my second job flying, that is outside NSW. Labeling stereo types is a lot of fun but when you post a thread, please do not post the same thing twice! It must take a great deal longer at your uni if you need to do everything twice. ;)
I live in a country town in the kimberleys ( WA just in case ). Fuel is about $1.10 per litre. Fill up car once every 3 weeks, parking is nothing - just like what you and your misinformed argument has.

[CaptainToBe]

Better late than never i suppose....

I am currently enrolled in the aviation program at Newcastle and I find it to be an extremely good course. I find it sad that Newcastle is closing down as the whole reason I went there was because everybody I talked to said it was the best. I started flying when I was 13, and believe it or not, it was at this age that I started asking around as to where I should go to get the best head start in the industry. Needless to say that all signs led to Newcastle.

Now that I have that out of the way, I would like to mention something about the person in charge of the program. At this time, the person to whom 'Uniflyer' is referring to has stepped down as head of the course and a much more capable person has taken his place. My comments, however unproductive, are directed at the previous person in charge, the person to whom Uniflyer directed his comments.

This person, lets call him Alan, is a genious. He knows just about everything that can move on an aircraft, and how he loves his Marage jet! The problem that many of his students have is that he gets so enthused in his teaching that he loses the class when he tries to teach us with nothing but graphs. Now having said that, out german friend comes along and simplifies eveything and in the end, the class knows what the hell is going on.

My point in all of this is that while the course is shutting down and people are brought in that dont know how to teach, the course all in all is still quite good. Looking back, I am glad that I chose Newcastle and not another school.

[save_dan]

I missed this thread too but I'll throw my two cents in....

I am a Newcastle graduate. I loved the course however frustrating it may have been.

"Alan" is a genious and you can learn off him, I did alright (97% in aerodynamics).

I think its as simple as a first year psyc class get 300-400 studenta and an aviation class gets 50.

Its probably cheaper to teach one class of 300 that one class of 50.

Maybe Johnny Howards to blame with his uni funding policy?

PS It didn't help with the attitudes of some of the students :( "when am I ever going to need to know that?"

[tealady]

Could be that evewryone's starting to realise at last that you do not need a degree to get into QF _ those on the cadetship don't have to get one and the Diploma they get issued with is no better than any others around. Lots of disgruntled grads and their parents out there who (in some cases several years after) still don't have their promised airline job!

[Transition Layer]

Ah tealady, good to see your favourite hobby of uni student bashing continues...

No-one is ever promised an airline job, and anyone who thinks they are "owed" one is either naive, stupid or both!

TL

[tealady]

TL, I guess by your ignorant comment that you didn't read the congrats I sent you when you started your first GA job. When was that?- about 2/3 years ago? When do you start in your airline job? I do not bash uni degrees - just the reasons some people do them for and the false hope they give to many would- be airline pilots. In fact, over the years I have recommended to quite a few students that they would be better to complete a degree rather than face up to the harsh realities of actually (shock, horror) having to work for a living! or to some who need to spend the 3 years maturing before venturing out into the grown up world. There are yet others who are actually really interested in their uni courses and do gain something out of the course other than just a piece of paper that they believe will get them into the airlines earlier . Too many start a variety of Pilot training courses without doing their homework.
By the way, did you go back to Instructing and are you still in Sydney? (You see, I saw a resume of yours once and was actually impressed by it and have attempted to follow your career ever since to see if I am wrong and that the Degree really does help you into the majors before the non-grads).

[*Lancer*]

Tealady,

"Too many start a variety of Pilot training courses without doing their homework"

Its a particular demographic of people that serves to create a negative image for Universities... NOT the University courses themselves. This isn't a reflection of a poor quality of training, or invalidity of a programme, but rather on a minority of students that are in degrees for the wrong reaons (or at least, not fully researching the right ones).

If you go to Uni, it can work wonders for you if you're realistic about what it will provide you. I have an aviation degree (!), and absolutely believe that I would not be flying (with Qantas) today had I not gone to University... not becuase I got a fancy piece of paper, but becuase the 'life' experience as a whole was invaluable.

CaptainToBe,

While everyone currently within the programme (staff included), and those that have left are fully conversant with the qualities of "Alan" (and there were a lot of good things), don't get too clouded by crazy German stories... The student's ATPL results will ultimately decide the quality of his instruction. Unfortunately, (maybe coincidently?) he has seen fit to remove the ATPL from the degree requirements.

Interestingly, as Psych continued to make a loss, Aviation (even with all that space) remained profitable. Unfortunately, it was plundered over time as the exodus of qualified and capable lecturers failed to be replaced.

Lancer

[Transition Layer]

Tealady,

Perhaps I was a little harsh in calling you a "uni basher", but I have just gained the impression over the years that you were of the belief that there is no place for them (degrees) in aviation. I guess I'm wrong.

You are dead right that it is all about how the student approaches the degree - and now that i'm on the other side of the fence I too see it in my own students. Those who are doing it because they want the bit of paper, and those who are striving to be the best they can be. There is a big difference.

The 3 years definitely allows some maturity and the opportunity to gain some life experience through working part-time whilst studying - especially if that work is in some part of the aviation industry.

I do remember the well wishes you gave me a couple of years back and I'm rather chuffed you've taken an interest since then. FYI I'm back in Sydney for the time being, instructing and finding it quite enjoyable and rewarding. Miss the freedom that charter flying in the bush provides you from time to time but they both have their own advantages. No airline gig yet, and not in the forseeable future, but getting there is half the fun!!!

Cheers,
TL

(This thread seems to have got way off the topic of Newcastle Uni!!!)

[drshmoo]

Dear TL,
can you see the M5 from the right hand seat of UNA whilst in the CCT?
Must arrange hook up due to SI arrival!!

[Condorflyer]

It is true that University Aviation Degree Programs close. This is mainly due to the funding arrangements by the federal Government and proposed CASA legislation (CASR 61). Let me explain.

Universities have had their funds cut. Each University gets a number of HECS places allocated and the University allocates these HECS places to faculties and schools. Aviation attracts only a small number of students (about 30 - 50 a program) but require specialist staff and special resources. Other programs (psychology for example) attracts more students and for the additional students less, if any, additional staff and resources are needed hence it costs less for the University to cater 40 more psychology students than 40 aviation students.

The proposed CASR 61 requires candidates for a CASA exam to be signed out by an authorised person. Unfortunately the University cannot, by law, demand that students attend lectures or tutorials and/or refuse any student of a degree course to sit any exam. Even if the student has no hope they would have to be recommended for a Government exam or they can successfully sue the University. However, those people will fail and if too many fail the University will lose the right to recommend people to sit CASA exams and the degree course falls over anyway.

People who are upset about Universities to cancel Aviation degrees may that the Federal Minister for Education, Brandon Nelson, as well as CASA, who obviously try to unload work and responsibilities.

However all is not lost. The University of Newcastle is in the process of designing airline pilot courses as "industry" courses with industry (airline) input. These courses will be of high quality preparing people for the job and not just teach them how to pass exams. Since these courses are not degree courses they fit into the CASA CASR 61. Students who successfully passed the industry airline pilot program will be deemed to have the qualifications to enrol in a Master of Aviation Management higher degree course (available as distance education) hence can aim for a Master Degree. The new course is on the net at a seperate address,
http://www.avspace.net/index.htm
if you are interested.

I hope that clears up a few things.

[*Lancer*]

"Condorflyer"

Just throwing around a few ideas here...

Why can't the University provide a final exam similar to the ATPL All students that pass then get submitted to CASA to sit the real one. At least it would ensure many, if not most students were given a legitimate, coordinated opportunity to sit for, and graduate with an ATPL, without the Unversity facing a high CASA failure rate.

While I appreciate the consequences CASR 61 may have, what is UNSW and UWS doing about it? Is there anyone out there that can comment on what allowances they are making for the new Regs?

What kind of lobbying took place with CASA regarding the implication of the regs? There was nothing really wrong with the system Universities had been employing, so surely some allowance could have been made for them rather than the certain death of the 7 or so aviation degree programmes in the country.

The final recommendations from the Review Board did not make any mention to HECS funding allocations, or upcoming CASA changes... rather it underlined systemic organisational issues that have failed to be addressed over the last 5 years.

Lancer

[Condorflyer]

Lancer, you need to look at the background. The review board for aviation was appointed as a result of the decision to review the programs offered by the University. Aviation was and is not the only discipline under review. Several programs are supposed to be axed. The review board simply established that it is uneconomically to continue the aviation program considering the resources and investment required to elevate the program to an Asia-Pacific centre of excellence. Admittedly it was not helpful that the then program director severely resisted to accept more international students in fear they could be terrorists and "bomb us" and his absolute refusal to consider offering the courses to airline cadets with the reasoning that "nobody tells me what to teach".

During the past two years the University exams were similar to CASA ATP exams and even more difficult. The CASA pass rate is very good now in Courses like Flight Planning, Air Navigation, Air Legislation as well as Performance and quite satisfactory in the other subjects. The problem is somewhere else. Firstly, the passmark of any University exam is 50% by law. There are students who just don't attend lectures and tutorials or make no efford hence fail the exams or just pass the University exams with 50%. These students still demand to sit the CASA examinations and, unless the law is changed, the University would have no right to refuse any such student to sit a CASA exam.

There were talks with CASA but to no avail. The people pushing through the proposed legislation do not support tertiary University degrees. I have more than good reasons to suspect that CASA aims for a pilot training system into which Universities and even TAFE would not fit. However, let me not go into this in this thread, it is a separate issue.

There are some who, correctly, say that the number of students from the University of Newcastle who failed CASA ATP exams was quite high up to mid 2003. May be some find it interesting to learn that the University had trouble recruiting suitable teaching staff and contracted Sydney TAFE to provide the instruction at great expense.

This is over since the beginning of 2003 since the University managed to engage someone with an airline background and who is experienced in ATP training. Now TAFE is not any longer used and the pass rate has significantly improved.

[exmexican]

Drshmoo, these young people take the bait quite easily, don't they. Your arms must be getting tired from all that winding-up. Anyone reading your posts must realise by now that anything useful you have to say is is generally obscured by bulls**t.

[*Lancer*]

Condorflyer,

I'm looking forward to seeing what will replace the course, but its disappointing to see the old one wind-up in the manner it did.

I won't quote the first two sentences of the review's "Terms of Reference: Background" on this public forum, but it certainly doesn't imply the review was a standard undertaking by any means. It clearly shows that there were serious underlying problems within the staffing of the department itself.

The whole review process stank of a set-up. The Chairman of the Review Board was the head of another institution's Aviation programme, and remained on the panel despite the obvious conflict of interest. Another on the panel was also from a 'competing' institution. While three industry representatives were invited to take part, only one did - a graduate now employed by QantasLink as an F/O. The course was railroaded by the HofS who seemed to pay lip-service to the concerns of staff and students while furthering her own agenda behind the scenes. The School simply wanted more funding and places for itself at the expense of the aviation degree that should never have been part of that School.

The course was close to being considered an 'Asia-Pacific centre of excellence' until it slid into decline. Had the 'Head of Aviation' been more proactive during the wider restructure, many of the organisational issues that resulted may have been mitigated. Newcastle was widely considered the best aviation degree in the country (and it was the first) until the 'course management' issues appeared following the collapse of talks with Impulse, and were subsequently exacerbated following the re-aligning with the parent School.

The day of ab-inito programmes may indeed be over, but I wouldn't hesitate too much in saying that it's largely a result of hidden agendas conflicting with the steps necessarily to align the course with the regulatory and industrial needs of the time. The regulatory environment was the same 10 years ago as it was when the programme was suspended. The issues of pass-mark discrepancies and the like have been sucessfully tackled for over a decade.

Lancer

[drshmoo]

nice call exmex. too funny. will try to unobscure the bs. Arms will still wind up the easily led astray though. take care and thanks for a laugh

[Condorflyer]

Lancer, you must have a good insight in proceedings and I am not saying you are totally wrong. What I am saying is that the number of programs were to be slashed in an effort to make the University more effective and efficient. Yes, there was the potential of conflict of interest considering that the review board was chaired by a competitor and still had at least one competitor who wanted to market an Aviation "Mickey Mouse" program which left all the aviation instruction and training to flying schools (mainly BAE) and, after additional not aviation related studies, handed out an Aviation degree. It suited BAE and the University in question since BAE could market their services claiming their training leads to a degree and BAE fed the University with additional international (full fee paying) students. I am not denying there was a staffing problem.

I am sure the new venture will possibly be even better as it will be more appropriate for modern times. The aviation program itself will be an industry program and not a degree program but at the end students will be qualified to straight away enrol into a higher degree course. The school employed a new staff member a few years ago who is an ex European military and airline pilot and is an experienced aviation teacher with even formal teaching qualifications and, as far as I know, he is now in charge.

Let's see what happend.

[TopperHarley]

Why did Taylor, Henry, Nendick et al leave ??

Was it purely dollars ??