View Full Version : RE: "RE:'89 warning"

20th Dec 2002, 22:47
Well W I am curious to hear what you have to say.....

If a subject causes you so much trouble and a way to avoid that trouble is provided in the form of another forum why are you intent on making sure it is not used?


21st Dec 2002, 00:04

First up I really do appreciate your attempt to defuse the angst, that surrounds the '89 issue in this Forum, I always intended to respond but life is a little busy at the moment.

Why did I close the Thread and delete the URL?

It goes something like this;

Part the First:

It was never my intention to censor or ban the discussion of '89, PPRuNe has never done so beyond trying to keep ourselves and/or the individuals concerned out of the courts.

If I may reiterate Rob Lloyds thoughts on the matter.

Despite Woomera's repeated attemts to clarify the situation for those determined not to understand this thread still continues along predictable lines.

History - personal and factual yes - abuse never.

Recent case law in Australia, for those of you following the press, exposes me and Danny even further than ever before. Our names and addresses are a matter of public record for us to be able to run this site for you.

Every time one of you presses the submit button our houses and livelhoods ride on the contents you transmit. The level of abuse and invective regarding '89 puts us in the position of knowing that someone will take us to the courts. However, they can't argue with facts so they are entirely welcome.

We happen to think that the Woomera team is the single most effective and tolerant one anywhere on the site. Since giving you the multiple forums we in the UK have allowed them to run their own ship entirely unhindered but Danny and I are putting the Australian forums on notice.

Ignore the policies created by your own, local moderators and Danny and I will take it personally. Australian case law and precedent now endangers our personal liberty and freedom more than any other country in the world.

Any of you willing to lose your home just so one foreigner can slag off another??

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

As it often does the debate was again becoming much too willing, I don't need to go chapter and verse on this and needed a reality check. My inbox volume is a pretty good barometer.

And I also happen to have a bit of an affection for Maison Woomera.:D

Part the Second:

From a purely legal and self protective viewpoint hosting a thread that points to another site, that hosts that which what we are trying to avoid here, amounts to the same thing.
WE are still exposed.
In case you didn't get that, It's the same as saying we can't sell you drugs/guns or whatever at this address, but if you go there.............?

Any of you willing to lose your home just so one foreigner can slag off another??

Part the Third:

In so far as '89 the subject is concerned I believe it rightly belongs here.
Not because we want, need or even have ownership of it, but because '89 needs to remain in the context of Australian aviation overall for it to make any sense of the subsequent events.
And that is what happens here.
Also perhaps of equal importance, as a history lesson to the youngsters who weren't there and trying to make their way in the aviation world.

In any event "advertising" of yours or any site without approval, is prohibited and in this case even if you paid for it, for the above reasons.

By all means keep the site going, those who want to, will find their way there, but they will not get any help doing so from here.

21st Dec 2002, 00:46
W Thank you for your reply :)

In response may I say the following

Part the first:

I can see exactly where you are coming from, litigation is never nice, and the stakes can be very high indeed! As is often the case ones inbox is, as you correctly point out, a good indication of the mood of the people.

Part the second:

I hold a contrary view regarding the legal position you are placing yourself and all at PPRuNe Towers (via your act of omission if you did nothing about the thread) with respect of a link to another site. However I accept that as you are charged with the responsibility to "keep a lid on" events that occur via this forum, your decision is, in that context, not unreasonable.

Part the third:

I agree with you that the subject of '89 is an integral part of Oz aviation as it is today, and there are lessons to be had on both side of the argument.

However I feel that the core issue of this matter is finally addressed in your second to final paragraph,

In any event "advertising" of yours or any site without approval, is prohibited and in this case even if you paid for it, for the above reasons.

This is something that has become more and more obvious as PPRuNe has grown in popularity, the commercial imperative to stop any "leakage" of traffic outside the site.

I have been with PPRuNe many years, in fact from not long after its inception, however with another identity. I have seen the changes that have come from the exponential growth of the site.

I accept and understand the reasons behind the "tightening of policy" as the site has grown; however it now lacks some of the sense of community and willingness to 'push the limits' that was the great strength of the concept in the beginning.

I wish you good luck in 'restraining' the robust discussion that will always be attached to the events of 'that year'.

I trust it is acceptable for my e-mail address to remain, so anyone who wishes to discuss this issue further can do so via it :D


89ersmate ([email protected])

21st Dec 2002, 06:40

Thank you for your thoughts.

Sometimes you can be the victim of your own success.

It now costs Danny the equivalent of a QF Senior B744 Capts Salary to run this site and make it available for all to use free.

Having said that, there has never been any change in the "advertising" policy.
The whole point of the Forum would be lost were it to become an advertising free for all.
That is why the ban is for all "advertising" except that approved by the boss.

No exceptions, no other agenda.

Believe me were it not so, every other thread or post would be someone trying to sell you something, to the point where it would lose that "community spirit" of which you speak.
This is a jealously guarded policy and one of the reasons for the success of PPRuNe.
There have been more than a few, very clever attempts to circumvent this policy and gain free access to the 50+ plus thousand mostly pilot members.

For those not within the publishing business, that is a very serious number.

To put this into context one of the well known and respected International Aviation Magazines can only lay claim to around 2,500 pilot subscribers.

Judicious, discrete and aviation related banner ads have helped defray the costs.
Those advertisers deserve our support, but there is no other motivation as far as a;
commercial imperative to stop any "leakage" of traffic outside the site.
it's simply to keep it the way it is supposed to be .

I am disappointed that many heavy duty PPRuNers have failed to take up Dannys offer to buy a user thingy to help.

I have been with PPRuNe many years, in fact from not long after its inception, however with another identity. I have seen the changes that have come from the exponential growth of the site.
That is true.

In case you haven't to the new Home Page yet, nothing has really changed it's just got better, and no "the sense of community and willingness to 'push the limits' that was the great strength of the concept in the beginning" hasn't changed either.

This on the New Home Page from Danny who should have the last word on this;

Welcome to the new PPRuNe Home Page
Welcome to the new revamped PPRuNe Home Page. Special Thanks to Marcus Eby, the Marketing Director for the International Pilots Group for donating his time and expertise in redesigning the home page for the benefit of all PPRuNers. We have changed to a dynamic format with constantly changing information which we hope will improve your experience when visiting the site whilst at the same time keeping graphics to a minimum.

Over the last seven years as PPRuNe has grown we have watched with interest as new forums were added to cater for the diverse number of groups who have an interest in professional aviation. We have added forums for private pilots who want to be able to learn from the safety culture (or lack of it) in the airlines. Don't forget that many of us airline pilots started off as Private Pilots. The Pax & SLF (Passengers & Self Loading Freight) forum was added to cater for the large number of end users who benefit from our skills whenever they fly.

PPRuNe was originally set up to cater for airline pilots. Our jobs prevented us from having the normal 9 to 5 office lifestyle which is largely the norm for most people, so we do not get to hear the usual type of gossip and it was only when downroute in a night-stop hotel that we got to meet up with other crew and the rumours could circulate. As more and more people who are involved in our industry become interested in our 'network' we accommodate them with their own forums and now they are the core of the website.

Our most popular forums are Reporting Points where any news that may be of interest to pilots and which encompasses information or discussion that directly relates to our jobs. Wannabes where anyone who is interested in training to become a professional pilot can ask their questions and get their answers. Military Aircrew where the professional pilots of the armed services can and do discuss topics that are of interest to them. Jet Blast, where anything not directly about professional flying gets discussed and fraudsters are exposed as long as the 'hotel lobby' rules are followed. There are over 70 forums to choose from although some are private airline specific and only accessible by invitation if you are employed by the airline.

Feel free to browse all the public forums and should you feel the urge to take part in any of the discussions then just register a Username for yourself and as soon as you are approved you can take part. Remember to read the FAQ's (Frequently Asked Questions) and if you are not too au fait with the internet or computers there is a forum dedicated to answering your questions too.

The PPRuNe community is made up of professional pilots and people from the thousands of other professions and trades that are all a part of one of the most exciting businesses in the world. If you have an interest in the business then you should be reading PPRuNe. After a while you will learn to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff'. The forums are moderated by a team of over 60 volunteers who are involved in the business and have some speciality knowledge of the subject area their forum covers. Our aim is to keep the content relevant and to stop the few troublemakers who are unable to learn 'netiquette' from turning some threads into flame wars.

PPRuNe started out as a hobby but has grown into an organisation dedicated to providing the ability for anyone with an interest and something worthwhile to say, a platform directly to the people who make the aviation world go round. Use it but please don't abuse it. It can be addictive, so be warned!

- from Danny - 15th November 2002 22:05

PPRuNe Towers
21st Dec 2002, 10:48

First and foremost we wish you the best of fortune running your site and have no objections to folks mailing you to discuss items of mutual interest.

Having said that, let's cut to the chase. You've been with us a very long time and must know that every single iteration or link to 'the list' has always been expunged from this site. We have satisfied ourselves through very experienced legal assistance that errors in each of its various iterations left us wide open to legal action.

By allowing a link to a site which at may, at some point, contain the list or a link to it we open ourselves again to such action. Here at the Towers we are comfortable that overall the service we provide 24/7/365 far outweighs the few times we have to act to protect ourselves.

It is often mooted on this forum that outsiders simply don't simply don't understand a culture that prides itself on forceful, even bellicose, debate. Here at the Towers we see the other side of any argument and, in this case of cultural difference, we are the ones coping with the flip side.

Latest threat to sue arrived 3 hours ago. As is usual (over 90% of threats during 7 years of running the site) legal actions emmanate as the result of posts on the Australian forums. Next time someone, yet again, wants to trot out that tired old canard think about this paragraph before pressing the submit button. Ozmates actually have the most fragile egos in the aviation world in terms of running to a lawyer - perhaps due to the frustration of not being able to simply thump the 'speaker'......

If you or others have a different opinion that's entirely to be expected but until or when a site is registered to your real name and address you're not walking that famous mile in our shoes. What we say goes - as you've found, creating a site is ridiculously easy and anyone can do it. Getting and keeping an audience is an entirely different matter once you start attracting the attentions of m'learned friends.

Best Wishes, especially to those having to work away from home this Christmas,