View Full Version : To scab or not to scab in Cathay, that's the question !

28th Jul 2001, 16:21
To scab or not to scab in Cathay that's the question !

When the 'veil' of who's who, is lifted by Cathay Management at 00:01 hours local time in Hong Kong on the 1st of August the 'future shock' will be in the office and its bearers of the Cathay pilot's union (Association). The least shocked will be the world's contract pilots and certainly Cathay Management who know the way pilots think.

The rhetoric that's been driven hard by the Cathay 'resistance' pilots on pprune is exactly the same sort of blind madness that the lads on 'Go Around' the AFAP's daily rag in 89 used to send to all the troops "keep them running over the cliffs come hell what may". The blinded passion being shown by the Cathay pilot group is exactly the same perilous path that we all took in 89, the head in the sand all the way mentality and TODAYsadly to say "its all over as there is now, no dispute" (Bob Hawke 25th Aug 89 - The Day After!) for the Cathay pilots dispute.

The Cathay blokes have so terribly misread history of modern company resolve together with City Hall (News Ltd's Wapping UK journo strike of the mid 80's or Reagan's PATCO stitch-up even Continental as well as 89 just to start with) and the CX-ppruners are so to the opposite of the scale of their own fellow Cathay colleagues silent majority who I've being seeing throughout this dispute. Just about all the CX-Aussies will sign the letters to the company, if not already done so then cretainly within the next 24 hours, they all know that the company has won and they know they are still one of the few and unrealistically best paid pilots left in the world airline industry. They know only too well that contract pilots are the way of the future and that contract captains earn less than the Cathay first officers don't even talk about accommodation, schooling, free medical, best pubs to stay in on lay-overs etc etc etc as the contract pilots would have to get out a dictionary to read up on those meanings.

The Cathay pilot's association have to be honest to themselves and accept the fact that their 54 colleagues are finished and that no Asian company or manager will be prepared to lose face for these sacrificial lambs especially in the eyes of their "own" Hong Kong business folk and in front of ALL the Cathay staff. The press are doing such a great job at reminding the public as to the facts that HK citizens are contemptuous to the CX pilots but more worrisome, so are ALL the Cathay staff (ask the UK staff) there's no way in the world that the 54 boys are coming home guys, its finished, tell them to get out those flight magazines guys, sorry but join the club.

The Cathay pilot, is now in a serious dilemma, as already, he is considered a "Claytons scab" amongst all of us, as they are flying whilst their 54 sacked buddies commence the realization that they are back into the real world of aviation, bloody hard contract work for very little pay and zilch conditions with a 3 months contract to live on (contract by notice is how we are all employed, upset anyone and you're out i.e. "shut up and fly, mister") for the REST of their flying careers.

The Cathay resistance pilot group talk all along about principles and loyalty, if they really believed their cheap jingoism then these Cathay pilots should not be flying whilst their colleagues have fallen but more to the point as of the 1st of August there WILL BE NO DISPUTE (thanks Hawkie) so will the Cathay pilots continue to fly?

Sure will ("gangway gentlemen, please, I'm in a hurry" say the current 89er's in CX).

And the company knows that only too well, because pilots are the easiest group of workers to split, look up in the sky and you'll see many thousands of contract pilots from all over the world highly experienced and qualified who are all perched on the H.K telegraph poles with shoulders crouched over, beaks dripping, for the 89 syndrome to take its final act in Hong Kong, they are all awaiting the first Friday of August's Flight Magazine back page where Cathay are looking for direct entry 330 340 777 747 Captains and F/O's and yes, please be assured there are thousands who will swoop down and walk in the door to fly for Cathay and immediately mind you. And all these folk will be only too acceptable to the Cathay Flight Ops department and the HK CAA regarding experience and licensing and ease for the purposes of "fast tracking".

The Cathay pilots must surely be aware of the numerous after dinner-evening cigars and 'complimentary' Cathay duty free Remy Martin VSOP that old Dave has had with Rod in BA, Geoff in Qantas, Sir Rupert out of his local HK office and asked "Geoff and Rod what should I do with my pilots, how did you guys "fix" the Aussie pilots?", "what's your recommendation Rupert, how can you help me with your past experiences with "fixing" problem unions and setting up a smear campaign, how would you resolve it?" OR try some "Dear Mr. HK and Mr. Very Honorable Beijing Government's, can you support our shareholders in our glorious airline, if I get rid of all the Cathay pilots and rebuild like the foreign devils did to themselves in the past, can you think about a system to FAST TRACKING FOREIGN LICENCES, H.K RESIDENCE AND WORKING VISAS for new captains and first officers from all over the world please?" Doesn't this all seem rather familiar guys?

The totality of the Chinese people in HK/Mainland and the pilots in their own airlines' have some very different views on the way they see the Cathay "problem" (that being the "foreign" pilots of CX themselves causin 1# embaressment 2# greed by foreigners as compared to holding up their own airline a Chinese owned airline) as compared to how the "foreigners" (Cathay pilots) see it!

The Cathay pilot's dilemma is even greater than ever before and is snowballing day by day, as the same CX-ppruners that berated the ASL pilots over the last 4 years with astounding rhetoric about being low class whores and scabs and these same CX pilots with so called "professionalism" displayed open contempt to the ASL pilots in the Cathay crew room, crew bus, hotels, dead heading etc now find themselves flying over their own 54 fallen angels careers already we're seeing the "justification" of the new commands and current employment acceptance in the last week on pprune, hey guys its us you're talking to. No matter how the Cathay pilots stack it up, they are already busting the very essence of unionism - something about, one for all and all for one or such like. But hey, pilots are pilots. They're just like cabbies and its every person ("whore?") for one's self.

For an analogy of hypocrisy then surely the current crop of Cathay pilots talking about scabs and as to what they themselves are actually doing by currently flying, getting paid, grabbing the commands shortly on offer, certainly sets a pretty good example. Remember boys the word scab is an Americanism from the 18th century Appalachian coal mines…..SCAB - Still Continuing All Benefits - be careful with the rhetoric guys.

Rest assured guys and be very very clear, Cathay is determined to go right through with this and rebuild if necessary just like the two Australian airlines did and the Aussie airlines (and the scabs) never looked back since. Likewise Cathay Management will do the same, for a short-term pain they will fast track and rebuild all within 3 to 6 months its that simple and easy.

More importantly the Cathay pilots need to know that there's a Hoover Dam wall of pilots who are ready to start tomorrow morning in HK and all highly qualified, hopefully the Cathay pilots will not be under the old fifties and sixties illusion that Cathay Management will only employ their current pilots because their the "right sort" and "the chosen people".

The very notion of the "right" sort of pilot is a thing of the past, as they were once the only 'acceptable sort of pilot' that would "fit in" to their Royal Empire Flying Boat Squadron in HK. The Cathay pilots are in for a seriously rude awakening next week and should be prepared to see very good pilots from around the world in all shapes, sizes and colours as direct entry captains and first officers into Cathay Pacific Airways from Central & South America, North Africa, the Med, Gulf, Indians and Pakistani's and the current abundance of experienced Sri Lankan 330/340 pilots. Apart from all the usual suspects i.e New Zealanders, South Africans, Aussies, Zimbabweans, good old USA and Canadians. Don't be fooled guys, 3rd world airline pilots are very very sharp and can match anyone down on procedures,SOPs, by the 'book' and simple flying, you should see where these blokes fly into and with what, year after year after year, without the nice home comforts of flight watch and infrastructure that mother Cathay provides let alone all the dough!! Sure they mightn't have the fancy Eaton accents with cravat and reefer jackets "hey I say old bean" but they sure as hell can help rebuild Cathay overnight and Management know it only too well with the Flight Department's acceptance and being only too happy with the caliber of professionals that all these guys bring into CX let alone with a savings in costs to go with it. Cathay can be like any other world airline full of contract pilots at half the cost of the current offer on the table to the Cathay pilots.

Did I read or hear someone in the Cathay pilot group in pprune the other day say "Cathay have to pay for quality!" - excuse me for a moment whilst 35,000 contract pilots spray their beers in laughter - what utter conceit guys, come on. Take a look at Heathrow, Frankfurt and JFK for example and see the Nigerians, Ghanaians, Arabs, Moroccans, Mexicans, Brazilians, Chinese, Japs, Indons, Indian sub continent, Turks, Greeks etc operating on all sorts of heavy metal they seem to be coping with their own capabilities quite well, thank you very much and don't just think that they're all flying within their own national airlines which they're not. These good folk are in major International airlines such as SIA, Emirates Gulf Air, BA Air France KLM QANTAS and Ansett, these top airlines, as an example, seem to get over this ill conceived colonial attitude quite well and as of the 1st August so will Cathay.

Cathay management have now played a superb masterstroke, by now two timing the Cathay pilots Association, one has to give then ten out of ten. The pens are frantic tonight in Hong Kong I'm sure, the association has badly misread their own pilot body.

But the real question at the end of the day is to scab or not to scab? Well discounting the small 'resistance' rhetoric of the Cathay wharfies and the old adage of "to maintain the rage" the answer is undoubtedly YES. Just ask the wives and families especially an 89'er missus.

Compare us bums flying contract work to our once best of friends who scabbed on us in 89, if you manage to ask them how's their lot, you first would have to wait for a moment whilst they moor their 40 footer next to their parked BMW in 'Pacific Waters' the Gold Coast's best area to live it up (and he's only on a 737 for Christ sake!). Do they care about me flying my rear end of for $7,500 per month in some sleaze hole in the worlds aviation bowels, because I kept my principles, oh hello "NO WAY FORGET IT"…..and for what I can pass on to any Cathay pilot is your loyalty is to your family and your company, as Cathay will continue paying Noddyland salaries and conditions compared to all of us with our tongues pressed against the window and snow falling on our rags looking into the last of the Royal Empire Flying Boat pilots club, watching them rubbing hands against the fire of fat pay cheques AND not forgetting HK accommodation, school fees, great working conditions etc etc.

Being an ex-Ansett operator for 14 years of hell bent 'company loyalty' and end up flying in the Mid East and now in Europe on the 320 and now the 330 I am quite at ease with myself to apply for a direct position in Cathay should I see the ad. Every single 330 757 320 767 737 pilot in my airline and mates airlines here in the UK who are majority non UK and many Aussie and Kiwis will be on the phone to start in HK the next morning. We can all, very easily handle being called a scab even if Cathay pay half the going offer and a bit of "reasonable' accommodation we would be all flying the line in Cathay within 4 to 6 weeks like the contract world of pilots do from airline to airline. With the current pay and conditions of Cathay being offered by the company we would be mad not to come over. I know for a fact that we would be killed in the rush by the 89'ers etc in SIA, Emirates, Gulf Air Saudia blokes and others as we all want to be able to go home once or twice a month, instead of once a year like we have been doing since 89. My loyalty cost me too much 12 years ago, if the Cathay pilots can't see what a good wicket they're on then they've only got themselves to blame when we all come in to replace the rebels.

Don't pile on the venom to me like you have on poor retired 411A and others, as we seem to all be talking the truth to you all and which, Cathay resistance pilots, seem to have forgotten all notion of reality, don't shoot the messengers please guys, we're all actually trying to give you sound advice, I'm sure you might all be surprised to see an 89'er prepared to scab in CX, but I'm sorry to tell you that I'm not the only 89'er that will. Many 89'ers out here in contract-land are all hoping that Dave Turnbull will place his 'ad' in the Flight Mag, Like other ppruners, I'm just trying to forewarn Cathay pilots that you have lost your battle it was simply insanity what you guys were even contemplating of doing in this day and age, especially with a slowing world economy (bad timing guys real bad) and now just go and accept, RIGHT NOW, sign up otherwise you will end up on the pile heap like we have all paid, we can only go up, you guys can only go down.

But you do realise don't you, that as you are all signing up behind the association's back tonight, you are turning into midnight pumpkin scabs yourselves like the way the rest of the world is going, sorry but its that simple, be smart and sign up, if not for your sake then for your families, don't blame us blokes if we come in and fly with you as we will all be scabs in arms. I trust the CX-pilots who heaped it on the ASL blokes will do the right thing and of course NOT sign up, principles gentlemen please, principles.

Sorry to write the simple truth.

28th Jul 2001, 16:48
Whether or not our friend above speaks the truth, he/she is quite obviously right about one thing: he/she speaks simply. So simply, in fact, that one wonders whether this individual ever went beyond a primary school education.

If this person actually holds an ATPL it occurs to me that someone else must have passed the examinations for him/her. Either that or the licensing authority in question ought to be challenged as to its apparent incompetence.

God save us all if persons the calibre and competence of this one are in reality poling our airliners around the world.

Or is it that I am just becoming too old ... ? :confused:

28th Jul 2001, 17:14
Scab.. (according to dictionary) is a skin desease.

fire wall
28th Jul 2001, 18:28
all scabbed up, I am afraid I must disagree with you. Inside info tells me that 1100 of the 1300 pilots have signed the rejection letter. Granted some of them may be taking the sneaky option offered by the company but after they see such numbers I am sure a few will get the courage to recind the hidden doc given to the company. While I have no doubt that numerous more sackings will result and possibly mass postings of new jobs to contract pilots, your senerio of events comes now to a grinding halt because there are very few C+Trng guys who have not backed the AOA stance....so who are to train your Black Knights ? I know all said the same with the advent of ASL but this little stouch is not in the same league as previous.

On second thoughts I do not beleive such black sentiments are those of a '89er ... least not the ones I knew ... I'll leave it there least I get angry and call you nasty names....@&%$#^^%$*&( !

28th Jul 2001, 20:00

Interesting post, and nearly on the mark IMHO. Suspect however that the "don't confuse us with facts, our minds are make up" crowd at the HKAOA will look upon it with disdain...until the advertisements appear in Flight International.

28th Jul 2001, 20:50
All Scabbed Up:
Your point is well made and easily understood. It's a dog eat dog phenomena in this crazy business and it will repeat over and over.

But there are exceptions to the rule and one was the most recent 3 month strike at Comair.
Much to the astonishment of the U.S. airline community, this strike was airtight! No scabs had emerged in this brutal tug of nerves. The airline management was stopped dead in its tracks because it couldn't move a single airplane.

The CX pilot group could have learned something from those Comair (Delta Connection) pilots: Stick together like superglue.

If all the CX pilots had supported their 54 fallen comrades and stayed off the job, the public and stockholder pressure on CX management to bargain in good faith would have been overwhelming.

There are no desperate situations, only desperate people. And scabs.


28th Jul 2001, 23:25
I think there’s a fair to middlin’ chance that “all_scabbed_up” works for Cathay’s PR or psych department and his ‘letter’, (with the standard of English carefully ‘dumbed-down’ to Management’s idea of a ‘real’ Australian pilot’s level of intelligence), is just another all too accurate shot aimed at the waterline of the CX pilots’ solidarity. (First post for him, I notice.) For his sake, I hope he was paid by the word. (That would have to go close to being the longest post I’ve seen on Pprune.) And he deserves whatever it os they’re paying him, because he’s pressed nearly all the right buttons in his lengthy tome.

I say only ‘nearly all’, because I think he comes a little unstuck with his comment “I know for a fact that we would be killed in the rush by the 89'ers etc in SIA, Emirates, Gulf Air Saudia…” You tried a little too hard with that comment, a_s_u. There’ll be applicants, and plenty of ’em, (and who knows, some might be disaffected 89ers), but most will be from be the same ‘class’ of person who went to Oz in 89, (and who knows, in some cases, maybe the very same people thanks to Ansett’s current travails) – the flotsam and jetsam of Aviation, not people working for a real company like the ones you mentioned.

28th Jul 2001, 23:53
You have a good point, except that there is one very big hole in your argument. The Comair guys accepted virtually the same offer from the management....only it was offered the second time 'round. Almost no changes. So, the three months off work cost them dearly. And, in HKG the CX pilots cannot strike without the approval of management. The labor laws in HKG are stacked against them.
Wonder if SFO's are licking their chops at the thought that more senior Captains might bite the dust?

29th Jul 2001, 01:02
Just thought I would add that not one of the many '89ers' that I have met over the years was ever inarticulate to the degree displayed in that post by a_s_u above. If this was a product of Cathay's PR or psych departments, then it was the most inept imaginable. For this reason alone, I seriously doubt whether that is so.

29th Jul 2001, 01:08
After the strike, the senior Capt annual base pay immediately jumped from $66K to $85K. That's no small change for driving a small bizjet.

But the overall point is that management was unable to attract any scabs to fly a single flight. This tightly knit force of CRJ commuter jet jocks has achieved unprecedented respect and honor in the US aviation community.

411: I was not aware that HK law can force a "free" citizen to go to work. Surely, if all 2000+ CX pilots don't show up for work at the same time, leaving CX jets stranded at airports all over the World, that HK lawmakers would become severly alarmed over such impractical, uneforceable law. Such total pilot solidarity would instead focus investors, shareholders and inconvenienced air travelers' attention unto the bankrupt CX management team. :eek:

29th Jul 2001, 02:38
1. Regarding Comair. Anything 'Labour' that happens in the US is not translatable to the rest of the world...especially China.
If it was we'd all be on 300K p.a.

2. An Aussie '89er whom I once contracted with for 12 months (and was quite pally with) told me over a beer that if my own company ever struck he'd walk in and take our jobs without a second thought...mates or not. This guy was hurting.
In vino veritas.

29th Jul 2001, 03:10
A.S.U......mate if you are as good as your gob(don't you EVER shut up?)..you'd be here already....

29th Jul 2001, 03:51
Suggest you continue reading further in your dictionary.
The Concise Oxford offers additional meanings of 'scab':
'Mean low fellow'.
'Person who refuses to join strike or trade union or takes striker's place or breaks rules of his trade or group'.

If the cap fits, wear it !

29th Jul 2001, 03:54
A.S.U.: I will never fly with anyone with your kind of attitude. :(

Kaptin M
29th Jul 2001, 05:06
Having been out of action for a while - nothing serious I'm sorry to say - my reaction to All_scabbed_up (and nowhere to go?) 's post, was the same as Wiley's - he/she is part of CX's (losing) management team's poor attempt to try to indicate that there are hundreds of pilots waiting at the floodgates. A sign of desperation.

It might well behove All_scabbed_up to recall the FINAL outcome of the 1989 Australian dispute, from the Airlines' perspective. A dispute that STARTED with FOUR Airlines companies, and within 5 years ENDED with ONE - Ansett!! And look at its financial condition since.

Certainly the majority of pilots didn't get to go back to work for their original airline, but those who WANTED work found it, and in general, prospered.
UNLIKE the participating EAST-WEST, IPEC, AUSTRALIAN Airlines (TAA), and ANSETT.

The CX dispute is almost one month down the track, with the pilots not yet having done anything other than work as per their Company's O.M's.
Conversely, CX management has squandered hundreds of millions of dollars of the company's assets. Hundreds of millions that could have been saved through simple negotiation.
It is too simplistic to try to justify this excessive, unnecessary waste of money by stating "this management is focused". It makes a mockery of any past or future attempts to freeze or reduce ANY of CX's workers' salaries in the name of "cost-saving", when it is patently clear that management are able, and willing, to blow hundreds of millions of dollars in several weeks on a project obviously undertaken to try to save their collective "face"!

Shame CX management, shame! (Gough Whitlam, 197..something)

Cisco Kid
29th Jul 2001, 07:24
It goes like this , 6 weeks strike = Airline bankrupt !411A you are so "flying club "

Cisco Kid
29th Jul 2001, 07:34
All scabbed up! ;only pilots please,...you speak unaldalterated crap,are you chinese,possibly trainee accountant la?

Tool Time
29th Jul 2001, 08:46
Er - what was his/her point in not scabbing in '89?

29th Jul 2001, 10:14
All_scabbed_up ......I would be very very surprised if you are not a part of the management.

As I have pointed out here and on other threads, this is a pilot R & N site, not a site for management propaganda.

It is time that pprune membership be edited to remove non pilots....please

Be careful

Liam Gallagher
29th Jul 2001, 14:16
All Scabbed Up,

I have never met anyone involved in Oz 89 that was not deeply affected by what occurred and carries with them, justifiably in my view, very strong views on Unions/collective bargaining.

Please be aware that the majority of CX pilots do not even read Pprune. The Resistance and others are not indicative of the CX pilot mindset.

You will be aware that there are sufficient numbers of 89ers within CX to ensure that no pilot is unaware of how brittle unity can be within a union. Equally, no one is under the illusion that the world pilot brotherhood will wholly support us. Further, both the company and any pilot who was in CX in 1999 will be aware that when faced with a "sign or be fired option" the pilots will sign. To that end the AOA has spent 2 years rebuilding unity after 1999 and is desperate to avoid a "sign or be fired option".

I do not believe the most recent letter received from CX is a case of "sign or be fired"(famous last words..oops). However, the more letters I receive from the DFO, the more convinced I become that he is trying to manoeuvre the pilots into a such a position and is relying on a group of guys to step out of line; he wants an excuse to fire/termimate a lot of guys. Whether he is trying to settle old scores before he retires or is doing the hatchet work before the "new" regime arrives I don't know.

I remain unconvinced that CX sees what you refer to as Contract Pilots as the future, and I am frankly bewildered by the stance the DFO is taking. He is either playing a blinder, or is playing blind.
Yours.. soon to be fired..
Liam G.

29th Jul 2001, 14:58
While consulting the dictionary, check on the spelling of "disease".

29th Jul 2001, 15:46
Let me begin by proudly stating tha "I am NOT a pilot". Why is that every time someone air a differing opinion, on a sensitive subject, that in this case was easily read and to the point, 90 percent of the responces are to the effect of "are you a pilot", "lets ban non pilots","you must be management" and other more simplistic responces.
I havn´t been following this Cathay strike, so I will abstain from making any comments pro or con, but it really gets on my nerves this arrogance displayed by a handful of contributor to theese columns. If you are outraged by a post why not sit down an formulate an intelligent and well thought through answer, and therby making a mokery of the offending post, I mean you might even get your own view across.
A viewpoint of a humble engineer.

Kaptin M
29th Jul 2001, 16:47
Put simply, Doc, this IS a pilots' forum, and the views of All_scabbed_up are NOT those of the MAJORITY of pilots.
So when someone attempts to represent him/her self as one of our profession, and the characteristics OBVIOUSLY belie the profession, he/she attracts the flamings you have witnessed!

beaver eager
29th Jul 2001, 19:55
Hear! Hear! Kaptin M...

It's a bit like going on an Anti-Hunting or anti Fur Trade bulletin board and making a posting that boasts about the new Fox Fur coat that you've just made out of animals you've killed yourself.

Flame away, fellow Pilots. :mad:

Oh! And up the workers... I hope you pull it off Cathy Pilots, it seems to me that Cathay always did well when you all had the best job in the aviation world.

Seems like some dumb middle or senior managers trying to make names for themselves in case the revolution comes!

It wasn't broken... So why fix it?

29th Jul 2001, 20:56
Dear Doctor A300

With respect, dear chap, this website is known as the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. As such, it is perhaps to be expected that responses from some professional pilots are likely to be in the form you seek to criticise.

I do not suggest for one moment that others, including engineers like yourself, are not perfectly entitled to post and express their views. Indeed, the vast majority of PPRuNers would certainly welcome such input.

However, I think you cross a line when you seek to gag comment by those for whom the website was originally created, viz. professional pilots.

Having said that, there are many occasions upon which I am led, as a professional pilot, to wonder as to the 'professionalism' displayed by some fellow PPRuNers. :rolleyes:

By the way, to assert that you are 'proud' to NOT be a pilot, does suggest that those who ARE pilots might have something of which to be ashamed. Is this what you intend to imply? :confused:

To borrow a phrase from one of my colleagues: 'nuff said. :D

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

29th Jul 2001, 20:58
Hardly an apt analogy Beaver. I believe the original poster is a pilot, and as such is entitled to his opinion in this forum, as are you.
Doc, though your point may be valid this is a pilot forum. And why would you wish to "proudly state" you non-flight status, do you hold pilots in such low regard?
Eagle, chill on the spelling fetish, who cares? Was the message clear?
And those of you who advocate "flaming" anyone for simply stating their views should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves. This is simply the childish and wrongminded behavior of a few ppruers with nothing to add and a perverse need to anonimously bully. Maybe some of you (and I think we all know who) should start your own site, allowing only those with opinions identical to your own to log on. No intelligent, controversial, divergent, insightful discussion allowed. I don't many other ppruners will be joining you though, sounds boring.
That's my 2 cents, I shall now stow the soapbox (and I'm sure a few you will be willing to tell me where to stow it). Thank you and good night.

Tool Time
30th Jul 2001, 04:39
What's a "mokery"?

30th Jul 2001, 06:27
A place where "moks" pray ?

beaver eager
30th Jul 2001, 12:50
We'll have to agree to disagree then, Brad737.

I'm with the conspiracy theorists, and don't believe that any pilot would actually write the original post.

Believing as I do, I think my analagy is fine. Also, I happen to be one of those rare people who believe in the "greater good".

I would hope that if I had suffered as all_scabbed_up says he/she has in the past, I would be even more determined to act with a sense of honour in similar scenarios in the future. Two wrongs don't make a right and I need to be able to sleep at night.

30th Jul 2001, 17:37
I confess at not being full bottle on the CX melee, but the superfluous ASU does have one thing right.
There are many (unquantifiable, I agree, but I speak to heaps downline all over the world) ex-89ers who would readily sprint to HKG to take a contract job in CX for about US$10k pm and 10 sequential days off. Make no mistake about this: there are heaps. Enough to satisfy CX management? Dunno. But enough to break the lines of A-scale lemmings!
Tread carefully, lads, can you expect troops to hold firm in their resolve? It doesn't seem likely to me, as work -to -rule doesn't cut it. It's got to be all out or none out. (see Comair/United/Lufthansa).

30th Jul 2001, 18:52
Isn’t it amazing how all these doom-sayers, (particularly those predicting how many Australian “89-ers” will “flock” to HKG to “scab”, are very, very new to this site?

I think Wiley has a point. Many of these posts are quite obviously not si subtle scare tactics by management.

Good luck to all of the troops in HKG, even those making oodles more money than I am. If CX management get away with this, it won’t take management elsewhere long to try their luck on the rest of us.

30th Jul 2001, 21:37
I've had to re-rub-up my username (I lost my password - "Doh" ) sorry about that as I'm not too used to writing into pprune my first time ever, I've been an avid follower of this great info tool, contrary to Singapore Airlines management who are beside themselves at the leakage of the working environment of their 'fine' organisation, brother, no wonder no one is going there to work!

Shame that I can't get into my original email username as I'm sure that there would be the odd abusive and threatening email from some of the Cathay wharfies with "the last man standing hold the flag will you" being told to me where in fact the cx-resistance wharfie is actually telling himself that, so as to make him feel better, to justify his own flying suicide, hasn't thought the bit about on how will he tell his missus and kids and the bank in a months time that they will have to live apart forever, doesn't bother me.

I'm going down to China town tonight here in Leicester Square, to get into the swing on how to order some Tsimtsatsui shark soup and seeing if I can order a cold Nathan Road beer I'll even try to saddled up next to some lovely little Suzie. Getting quite exited thinking of going across on the Star ferry to walk up to the lovely empty Victoria peak apartments with beautiful views to have a nice fist full of cash compliments of CX and take the best flat in the house. The boys would remember how well the foreign scabs were treated like in Auz, nothing but the best with security guards thrown in.

Seriously everyone, this is bloody serious, very sad AND ALL UNNECESSARY, that after 48 hours time, there will be many hundreds and I mean many hundreds of people from Cathay pilots to friends and families whose lives are going to be completely turned upside down, it will be the most traumatic experience about to be unleashed to moms and kids, the stress you are about to experience, God, you have no idea let alone the financial crisis that is about to be experienced, I'm trying to scream this out to you all to let you know its not worth it, for God sake guys listen its finished, sign whilst you still have the chance, Cathay which is a bloody fantastic airline will continue to employ you, get your commands pay your bills have the kids looked after, a good retirement plan well set up, in 48 hours time if you don't then you will be just like all my mates and I who have lost the lot spent all our 'super' throw in the divorces and being away from your kids the next thing you know your 5 year old son is shaving and getting married without you being there.

I'm just reconfirming to the Cathay resistance 'mob' that I've been in Gatwick over the last few days talked to my mates in HK and quite a lot are Brits and Irish but the rest are all Aussie A scalers captains and f/o's some are B scalers and guess what THEY HAVE ALL SIGNED UP. I'm simply trying to pass on my advice of my own terrible mistake. Your responsibility is to yourself and to your missus and kids and to your future of your life's expectations. Your close friends will turn right against you within seconds likewise your friends that have scabbed will forget you even quicker.

Its amazing how 90% of the ppruners on this string really believe their own 'BS' that is self perpetuated by themselves thinking that "I'm management" - Get real guys, I'm just a 51 year old bum captain who should have scabbed in 89 like the rest of us should have, but I didn't. Why? Because I was under the same illusion that the so called ANZAC spirit was alive and well and that Aussies just don't do things like that its not in our culture just like you don't 'dob' a bloke in….and look who's laughing, the blokes that went back. They've stayed home (and in their holiday homes along the coast) in the best country in the world, were with their kids everyday, with his missus, didn't bother him being yelled abuse by some poor 'rebel' bastard at Brissie airport, getting back on board a SIA or MAS 747 to go back to some dump around the world and has to stare at 4 walls watching TV that's not in English and waiting for his time to go back home (a year away) all the while getting older and older and is emotionally destroyed, did his scab pal worry about - nahhhh no way, throw beer over him every time you go home he doesn’t care, he's laughing. WE'RE NOT.

Some of the nonsense that the ppruner-cx-wharfies are saying here (as I said earlier) to "maintain the rage" " best of luck boys" "don't give in" (yeah right buddy and lose everything you have and possibly could've had, but blew the lot away this coming Wednesday morning because of the "mate" BS) I say it again and again CX management know that they have sufficient numbers and "NOW HAVE CRITICAL MASS". Who was the idiot in this string that said "how will Cathay survive without any Training and Check captains" boy you don't learn from history boy'o do you? You're now gonna repeat it, MATE, how many T & C's do you honestly think Ansett and Australian had by late Sept 89, even the top and best T&C's being both Henry and Jimbo had left AN/TN, virtually ZERO were left in the two airlines , BUT HEY GUESS WHAT? They rebuilt and bloody quickly ..do you really believe your own BS to believe CX won't have at least a handful of T&C's, be very clear in your mind pal, CX have enough T&C's.

Are there any contract piloted airlines you say? Cathay from this Wednesday will be like SIA Gulf Air Asiana KAL Saudia (it goes on and on) just employ off the street contract pilots direct entry capts and f/os and "shut up and fly" and Cathay will. There's nothing wrong with it it’s the way the world's going. Sorry mate. You'll see for years to come Catahy ads for pilots like you've seen all the others do and CX as they are showing how clever they are, won't bother about training new blokes they'll get experienced pilots over the years from other 777 747 Airbus operators.

If I'm some spook CX management then how many of these lofty chaps would know about FNQ doing a beat up in Alice one day, mind you TAA did its little beauty scouring below cloud beside Table Cape until the F/O blew the whistle to his old man a few nights later over dinner, who as hinself a TAA 727 capt and nearly got the capt sacked….we had Fang on the 727 whilst TAA had "chipboard mother Bar" and "SID-BUSTER" we didn't trust F/O's in Ansett as we were told they couldn't fly from a runway that had more than a 90 degree special procedure like out of HBA or CBR or CNS (Captain only runway take-off's fellas if you don't mind) mind you TAA went to the other extreme and had this thingy thing called monitored approaches, their F/O's had to do all the flying down to minima and the captain lurched ahead and grabbed control if visual. Me Cathay management "I don't think so" oh in case you still think I'm a spook, then CZM (that’s a AN 737 mate) had the best porn-spreads in its RTOW folder (sorry Debbie), satisfied now.

I'm very sorry that I've used such a terrible nom de plume such as scab and talk about it as I feel that both SCAB and the "n" word are some of the most obscene words in the English language and my opening thread was for shock value to get some common sense going amongst all of this as I don't want to see both good young and old men go on to the scrap heap, for example of the 54 mounted stuffed-heads now stuck on the wall of the CX DFO's office how many were within cooeee of a command? Now what are they going to do, simple of course, do another 10 years in the right hand seat, IF they get a job.

Maybe Cathay won't employ me, as I've less than 5 years to go till 55 but hey, a simple phone call from CX Management to Mr. Very Honorable Beijing CAA and bingo retirement will be 60 like the rest of the world "please not to forget my fast tracking I will look after you with more flights to wherever in China, Sir" -- "Xe Xe and no worriesh Mishter David T, we will help you in any way we can for our coomon shareholders".

We're all set to come across and work as hard as can be in CX like we've been doing for the last 10 years in contract land, I'm sure the Cathay flying would be more enjoyable than my morning mad Athenian ATC tower and approach blokes let alone Corfu. mind you they seem a bit better that Southern French ATC nowadays and that's saying something.

To the cx-wharfies who are so smug that they are proud "old timers ppruners" and abuse folk who only have one entry please grow up weren't you knew as well, and the self serving ppruner scholar who seems to think that to write on pprune one has to write to the levels of the John Keating's and Walter Scott's of the world, so that we might end up winning The Booker Prize, buddy please get real we're just "glorified bus drivers" (thanks again Hawkie)…and to the fellow ppruner who says I've got a big "gob" then on this very subject I'm only too happy to mouth off if I can make at least ONE CX'er bloke to see reason if not for his sake then his destiny's and family's.

Bet you boys, that over half the cx-ppruners and wharfies usernames will scab after wednesday....you'll be really surprised when you see some senior Association pilots in with you and all of us.

Now how come the cx-wharfies haven't answered their ASL behaviour, it'll be mighty funny being a fly in a CX cockpit Wednesday night as I'm sure it'll resemble the French Foreign legion that our own President of the AFAP famously said filled up with "bums, misfits and mercernaries".

Front headline in the South Morning China Post:-


30th Jul 2001, 23:32
Now let me see if I’ve got this right… All_scabbed_up is keen as mustard to take a job in Cathay, but he’s a bit old for their optimum profile for a “contract” pilot. If that’s the case, All_scabbed_up, surely logically you should be hoping like hell that as many as possible CX drivers don’t sign.

But you’re encouraging them to sign up quickly “so the don’t make the same mistake you made in 89”.

Definitely management.

(Oh, and I’m really impressed with para 2, All_s***’ed_up. A 99 word sentence! Wow!)

31st Jul 2001, 00:05
Well, enough of this 'pilots pretending to be management', and 'management pretending to be pilots'. No-one believes you are who you say you are, unless you post along anti-establishment, anti-management lines. That's the mentality we are dealing with here.

Well, I am Management, and I say Good Luck to the Cathay Management and all hard working, brave professional people that striking scum call Scabs.

Joyce Tick
31st Jul 2001, 00:28
Bourbon - I reckon you're management, pretending to be a pilot who's pretending to be management. And I think you're really for the CX pilots but have made a satirical posting in their support.

But all this will be lost on them - 'cos their heads are buried in the sands of Clearwater Bay...

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Joyce Tick ]

emiel luther
31st Jul 2001, 00:35

I have followed your posts with interest. I have over 8000 hours flying time, in my early thirties and have been wanting to join the majors for a while.

I cannot get a Direct FO position YET 'cause I dont have Jet time. If CX should strike, that situation may well change.

Gentlemen, please exercise caution, "all_scabbed_up" speaks sense, think carefully and play your cards well. I will not accept responsibility for your actions.

If the job offer becomes available, I shamefully would have to say " I will take it!"

You can never Be, if you havent Been.

Kaptin M
31st Jul 2001, 01:01
All_scabbed_up_again has researched the 1989 Australian dispute quite well (not too hard with all the Aussie pilots around the world) to try to give his "character" an air of authenticity, but fails, however, to hide his native American/Canadian heritage which present themselves in 3 or 4 places throughout his second epic, and for a supposed ex-Ansett pilot of 14 years, has made a glaring fopar when he mentions the "RTOW folder"...that terminology was NEVER used for the Special Information book".

From CX managements point of view, this forced confrontation with their pilots has collapsed like the proverbial house of cards, and cost the gambling management fistfulls of dollars.

all_scabbed_up_again also needs to remind the readers WHY the Airlines in Australia were able to attract so MANY scabs there in 1989.
Because they offered extraordinarily HIGH SALARIES, IMPROVED WORKING CONDITIONS (eg. overtime commencing at 55 hours), an AUSTRALIAN PASSPORT, and a LIFESTYLE in a great country.
Cathay is NOT offering that to their pilots - YET!!

If all_scabbed_up_again's posts are the best ammunition that CX management have (via their "PR" company), then they have yet again demonstrated their total UNACCOUNTABILITY for the hundreds of millions of dollars they have blown in their "war" on the pilots!

Chimbu chuckles
31st Jul 2001, 03:52
I personnaly don't believe that an Australian with the education required to gain employment in the pre 89 Domestic Airlines of Australia could have such poor writing skills as to make a post almost unreadable!


31st Jul 2001, 04:10
ASU again:

1. What is going to happen in 48 hours? How do you know that? Why is it going to happen?

2. Why would there be A-scale Aussie pilots at Gatwick?

3. Why do you bother to post all these comments here so people can **** all over you?


31st Jul 2001, 04:22
>>...but fails, however, to hide his native American/Canadian heritage which...<<

Don't think I've ever been accused of being a Canadian <g>. There's a big difference in being an American and being a "North" American. Beware imitations...

31st Jul 2001, 04:35
Attn KaptainM

Air Traffic Controllers, Engineers, Cabin Crew, Operations, Crewing and Rostering staff are also welcome as well as anybody else with a connection or interest in professional aviation.

You agreed to this when you signed up;
Put simply, Doc, this IS a pilots' forum, and the views of All_scabbed_up are NOT those of the MAJORITY of pilots.
So when someone attempts to represent him/her self as one of our profession, and the characteristics OBVIOUSLY belie the profession, he/she attracts the flamings you have witnessed

These are the rules, you agreed by signing up to PPRuNe. Don't slag off your non-pilot colleagues.

Otherwise just following this thread out of interest

Bob Hawke
31st Jul 2001, 05:44
I can't but wonder how the disasterous A & B scale came to be. Surely that alone would have caused division and resentment in the first place, between crews.

As for that, to my mind, haven't, or didn't the A scalars sell out their colleuges, B scalars, along time ago, by allowing such a division. Having people on different terms and conditions, is a recipe for disaster. The CRM must be terrible at times?

Good luck to you all.

31st Jul 2001, 05:53
There is nothing on earth that should make one scab. The only good scab is a dead scab. Talk about selling your soul to the devil....

Chimbu chuckles
31st Jul 2001, 06:11
An A scale mate told me a few years ago how B scale came to be. The company came to the pilots and said "Hey guys we need to cut costs, this won't effect you but we want to hire all future pilots on a B scale".
Said A scalers said " Well it won't effect us so who cares". Unfortunately they didn't recognise the the thin edge of the wedge driven by a management with no scruples.


31st Jul 2001, 06:39
>>I personnaly [sic] believe that an Australian with the education required to gain employment in the pre 89 Domestic Airlines of Australia could have such poor writing skills as to make a post almost unreadable!<<

Agreed, that fellow could never have typed his own AFAP resignation fax!

>>I can't but wonder how the disasterous A & B scale came to be. Surely that alone would have caused division and resentment in the first place, between crews.<<

The B-scale was the brainchild of CEO Bob Crandall of American Airlines, implemented in a 1983 contract. It was sold to the pilots as "don't worry, it's only for the new guys..." It spread through the U.S. airlines like a virus until the unions wised up. A later variant is the "Express" alter ego operation with lower wages and less favorable work rules, this still exists at some places like Delta and US Airways.

31st Jul 2001, 10:20
"the best country in the world"??

That just about says it all.

Tool Time
31st Jul 2001, 14:34
It should've scabbed - talks (writes) like one.

31st Jul 2001, 17:02
A_S_U IF..... you were involved in '89 then you probably tried to scab but they wouldn't have you.

31st Jul 2001, 20:07
Beats me where people get these astronomical salary figures for CX from. The highest paid pilot in the company must be the DFO who is at present making sure no one else gets close - ever! Bet his is the salary the SCMP uses as an illustration of 'overpaid pilots'.Please be assured no one gets a pension from Cathay - just a lump sum, which to the average 15 yr retiree who has to invest it somewhere, falls far short of that necessary to give a pension of even half that received by a similar guy from BA. Also the price of £2.50 for a pint in London is a snip compared to Nathan Road! Maybe encourage people you dont like to scab in H.K then they will end up worse than they are now!! :D

Kaptin M
1st Aug 2001, 07:07
A final torpedo for CX management`s All_scabbed_up_again[\b]. The profile presented was too specific - 14 years with AN, never scabbed, now 51 years old, current aircraft type, and location - make you too easily identifiable, as you (the "creator" of [b]All_scabbed_up_again) was obviously unaware that ALL the ex-89`ers are on a computerised record maintained by one of guys...the details include dob, AN Coy number, date of joining, etc.

Bye bye, All_scabbed_up_again!

For those of you who MIGHT be tempted with any Cathay offers that have yet to appear, the change in lifestyle between living and working in Asia - esp. Hong Kong - is only ONE reason for CX paying the salaries they have HAD TO, to attract pilots.
But MOST importantly, you really would NOT want to be labelled a "scab" for the REST of your life, which you will be, if you try to replace any of the current Cathay pilots.

All the best CX guys - hope the APU problems in FUK didn't infringe on your crew rest!! :D

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]

Sunshine Express
1st Aug 2001, 07:43
I have no idea if "I lost my password-doh!" is for real and I really can't be bothered to read all his postings BUT he is one bitter and twisted poor S.O.B.

He and his friend's wives all left and his Son didn't invite him to his wedding.

Poor b*st%!d could be management!

Good luck guys, I hope no one has the regrets that this bloke claims to have....

2nd Aug 2001, 00:28
"all-scabbed-up" I thought I knew how to rub people's noses in it...but you take the prize...good post about the sad truths of our decaying industry.....

2nd Aug 2001, 00:59
Yes indeed, down the slippery slope. The CX guys "action" is dead, they just don't know it yet. The company management is calling all the shots. HKAOA=RIP.

2nd Aug 2001, 01:22
Dear Gentlemen!
I am not with CX but with Lufti and would like to spill my 2 cents - make it 20000 cents. Pleeaaaaaseee excuse my spelling etc.. english is not my mother language and I am writing here in a cafe without the time to structure my words.
We had a strike and it was a nasty one. The company did everything to discredit us in public and inside the company.The gave out infos to the press which were deliberately wrong eg. we only work 78 hrs inkl preperation, turnaround etc.. make x amount cash etc.. the usuall bull. I wrote our management that all I want is what they publish and i will be a scab. LH cancelled a newspaper ( Süddeutsche Newspaper) which wrote a few balanced! articles immediately, of course because of lack of demand.. We found out through calling them why they no longer are offered on board our flights, and they told us - most pilots ordered a subscription.
Mgmnt organised a "sponanious" demonstration against us of with the catering, Maint. and Groundstaff.. Funny thing was they all had printed high gloss posters...normally take a week to do... Basically it was a bit nasty. We all stuck together and we got a good deal, not perfect but there are still some contracts up for negotiation, and now we are trying to get back to normal, which is impossible in my opinion, since the actions from the mgmnt side inkl flying mgnt were unexcusable. They feel the pinch now and will for a long time.
A few scabs flew during our strike. We published a list of them internally and rest assured they are going through hell!! Just had a 5 day trip with one from the list. I gave him a chance to state his reasons. He couldnt and those 5 days were not funny for him! And this will go on for a loooong time. There is a lot to do and let happen in 5 days, belive me.
This should be considered by those charakterless spinless pilots (I remember a GA Bush flyer and a few others)when you join CX now. It will stick for a long time and believe me its no fun. It s because of such uneducated pricks like them that our industry is slowly going down. If we all could wait a few weeks, it will be for the benifit of all.
But stupit bushfliers like him dont see the big picture.
He complains about his current working condition but has he ever thought why his working conditions are so low? Maybe because the likes of him will fly for food? Will pay for their own rating? Will do anything to get a job? Well there you go!! And now you want to do the same thing again? I am sure you will be dumb enough to complain in a few years when the condtions of service at the new company you basically scabed into go down!! Your entry date will show up and its not funny to come into the crewlounge with all the other people there already informed what you are. I did it and will do it again with our scabs.
Maybe somebody could publish a list of your managers, CEO, Personell and flight ops guys involved in the sackings. Just a list here with name and function, like your ceo, deputies, fleetguys, personell office guys etc.. just for info for everybody so we know who works where in CX, not to be missused of course against them.....
You never know who asks for a jumpseat, upgrading "voluntary" offloading, lost baggage etc...Also if one of these incompetent pricks comes to a company nearby it is good to know where he came from. Or just mail it to me if Danny is unhappy with a simple list of names and functions with no add. text. Should not be illegal i think.
Remember It is up to us pilots to make a flight from a-b profitable or a huge loss!A few mini decisions where nobody can piss up your leg and they can scrach their bonus pay, did it bevor and will do it again.

We pilots are always directly responsible for our action. We stuff it up there are 3 options: Dead, Hospital or Court room or a combination of all.And we will get no money whatsoever! albeit our daily risks. Managers can f... up as much as the want and they get 3 options: Golden Handshake (take a few million marks), Promotion or nothing happens!
They argue since they can be replaced day to day they need these fall back options in their contract. Well it can happen to me as well, day to day even more than a seat warming pencil pusher. And lets not forget, what these guys are doing is not a big deal. Although my english is bad, I have a Magister (Degree in Europe) and elected to go for my passion, but I know the mgmnt is only cooking with water like everybody else. When I finished my degree in my first job as a product mngr I woke up. Could have saved me the 5 years of learning. It was all comon sense and logics. Its information, vision and decision. So we should also consider the fact that they can as well be replaced immediately and there are hundreds waiting to get in 4 years of experience in HKG, just like me when I finished my degree. So dont be intimidated by them. What angers me is that because of the current system every mgr brings up the stock for the 4 year goal so he gets his options in, and that there is no possibility to hold him accoutable after that. In reality it is just a game of cashing in on your options as a friend of mine told me - he is Head of marketing with a carrental. You come, bring up the game and leave for better grounds for another round. And all the upper mgnt staff that stays follows the four yearplan of the ceo in respect to the stock price, then you sell and wait for the new guy. There is no nostalgic touch to build a company, build values, blablabla - sad, but true. So lets force them to at least let us live. We have to spoon out the soup they cook and I want money for that.
CX Fellows, stick it out ( till all are reinstated), remain united and get advice from ALPA and the like on PR and tactics. They all cook with water, so we all can cook as well. Rostering is the most important thing in everybodys life next to job security and pay. All three are gone with cx and I cannot imagine that to many good pilots are interested in a job there. colleages of mine applied and retreated after the sacking.
There is a good book "The dairy of a union buster" seems like the mgmnt read it. Ours did! By the way is the work to rule, what we all do anyway everyday, also with the based guys in Europe. Saw no disruption here with the cargo ops in FRA , which runs under a LH Flight number. Is their rostering also influenced by HKG or are the VETA guys considered a seperate lot in CX?
Sorry to bore you guys here, but one more thing. Be aware that on a "hundred dollar" flight ticket only 1.9 dollars are the costs for the flight crew! 40 Dollars are Marketing,Sales and Admin!! Have it in writing from our CEO in a gloosy infobrochure on the costs involved on a 100DM ticket. Very interesting i might say. Lets save a bit of money on the 40% factor!! Sorry once more for my spelling, its very late.
All the best and GOOD LUCK!
edited for the most obvious mistakes, good night!

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: cws ]

2nd Aug 2001, 01:45
Another great post. Thanks CWS...so good I read it twice! :D

2nd Aug 2001, 01:58
CWS, Dank für einen guten Pfosten. Ermuntert mich, um zu denken daß, nachdem alle " schmutzigen Tricks " durch Ihr Management, Sie nach allen folgten. Danke.

2nd Aug 2001, 03:23
Good post CWS :cool:

Tool Time
2nd Aug 2001, 08:49
He's right.
The cheapest two professionals in the operation, are the two looking through the windscreen.
2% for two!
Pretty cheap costing.
And still the managements complain.
So what is the reason?
Easy targets. Always hope to get enough to scab.
Doesn't always work though - if you stick together.

Ignition Override
2nd Aug 2001, 10:10
Bob, Chimbu, Airbubba, and especially CWS: very good points about our business: the mostly retired SOBs at American who sold the future new-hires' salaries down the river, and about the scabs or scabs-in-waiting.

We had a list of Eastern scabs (who now work for us) posted in the main flight bag room at a northern crew base. Nobody can go back in a time machine and change the fact that they decided to work as a SCAB. Their names stay on permanent lists in order to remind everybody who the most selfish pilots are, whether their pilot group is now represented by ALPA or not (i.e. Continental). That still does not change what they did.

They care nothing about the market value of their skills as a pilot. Some might need to impress women (and guys/gals at a high school reunion) with their pilot uniform in order to "get lucky". They are the most self-seeking chumps and suckers in our profession. Continental allegedly hired one during their strike in '83-84, who was a convicted child molester. Maybe it was true or not, but Continental would hire whoever it needed, in order to move airplanes from point A to B.
Lorenzo's only goal was to break the back of organized labor, no matter what the results. Look at what Continental was like between the iron-fisted exploitation of Lorenzo (check on how the seniority lists were put together...) and the rebirth under Gordon Bethune. Is it a paradox that highly-successful Southwest Airlines has been heavily unionized for many years?

Maybe it is not a paradox- Southwest seems to be one of the few US airlines to have had inspired leadership and a commitment from upper management to look at more than just the short-term cost structure.

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

2nd Aug 2001, 14:15
Ergo what Ignition Override? All pilots hired during a strike are child molesters?

Oh dear oh dear oh dear! :(

2nd Aug 2001, 16:34
The arguments and counter-arguments between the 'true believers' (unionists) and the 'individualists with the right to decide what's best for themselves' (apologists for pilots employed during strikes) is like a CVR endless loop tape - the same protagonists (myself included) making the same points over and over again.

Maybe it's time to accept that this argument is a bit like two people from vastly disparate cultural backgrounds discussing religion. There's no hope of agreement because there's simply no common ground to start with.

Perhaps because this is a UK-based web site, (and perhaps not), many of the 'individualists' seem to be UK-based, so I'm wondering if this difference of opinion isn't in the main a cultural thing. Although the majority of people now resident in the ex-colonies can trace they family trees back to the Old Dart, I'd make so bold as to say the England of today bears very little resemblance to the country - and the culture - that the now colonials' great great grandparents left, (either willingly - or not so willingly, under 18th or 19th century 'assisted passages' courtesy of HMG).

Those who did arrive in the new lands quickly found they simply had to co-operate to survive in what were often extremely harsh and unforgiving circumstances - both natural and man-made. The 'individualist', who always looked to himself with an attitude of 'devil take the hindmost', frequently came unstuck because like it or not, in the harsh colonial environment, he needed friends quite frequently just to survive, let alone prosper. This engendered a fierce tribalism in the majority of these people, an innate understanding of the common good and a fair go for all.

What was honed in the frozen wastes of the Canadian north or the opposite extremes of the Australian or African bush became national characteristics when those fledgling nations sent their sons to war in defence of the Old Country. The people in England saw that these young men had become subtly (and often not so subtly!) different to their own sons. Roughly spoken, frequently rough in manners and totally dismissive of authority, these men would speak their minds and make no attempt to hide their feelings or their opinions of people who had not earned their respect. They did this even to those whose position on the social tree demanded respect (or at least a public pretence of it). They also did not understand something every English child understood almost from the moment he drew his first breath, the all important matter of class and where one stood - and remained because that's what you born to - on the complex English social class tree.

Like all generalisations, this argument has some gaping holes. There are people in the each of the countries - and quite large groups of them - who'd fit far more comfortably into the mould I've drawn for the other group than into their own so-called 'national character', (eg, supposedly the person who started this thread). But the fact remains, there seems to be a large proportion of the UK population - or from within that section of it from which many pilots are drawn - who honestly and quite sincerely see nothing untoward or dishonourable in taking a short term personal advantage at another's expense. Perhaps it's time we colonials came to accept this as a fact of life.

2nd Aug 2001, 19:39
Wise old bird as usual, but I think I'll stick to the old colonial way.
I believe that we colonial oiks have actually maintained what was the "stamp" of Empire and that was the rule of "it's just not cricket" and even that great game has been debased.
The Huns are at the gate.

Kaptin M
a_s_u's peroration is faintly reminiscent of our old friend 'Tokyo Rose'.
'Hong Kong Bauhinia' perhaps?
Or is he realy a later incarnation of 'Lord Haw Haw'

3rd Aug 2001, 00:36
So what about All Scabbed Up's point that all the CXers who haven't downed tools since the 54 got fired are scabs themselves? Hmmm?

3rd Aug 2001, 00:52
Sorry to attack your spelling nerves once more. I posted some more unstructured thoughts to all scabed up etc which I didnt think of yesterday by error on the other topic, "wahts happening at cx".
Thank you for your replies to my first posting.
All the best,
cws :)
etdited even this short one for the most obvious mistakes..

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: cws ]

3rd Aug 2001, 05:05
"All pilots hired during a strike are child molesters? "

No, but they are certainly treated in the same category...

3rd Aug 2001, 11:30
Well first I have to declare myself an Englishman. I think that to postulate that we are bereft of conscience is a bit rich. Have you seen the way the Aussies play cricket? What a magnificent team, but why do they have to introduce bad manners and intimidation into the game? Yes it works - they're stuffing us - but surely that isn't the point.

On the subject of national character, and the ex-colonial's sense of fair play, do the Aussies, Kiwis and Americans have a sense of common good and give a fair go to all Aborigines, Maoris and native American Indians? No they don't, they sh*t on them.

None of us is perfect folks. It is not the right time for international name-calling and amateur social anthropology. It just isn't cricket! ;)

beaver eager
3rd Aug 2001, 13:41
So... all_scabbed_up(_again?) seemed fixated on something that was supposed to happen on Aug 1.

It's now Aug 3... What the current state of play? Has the management's attack collapsed or are the pilots making a desparate last wicket stand?

3rd Aug 2001, 14:29
I very much doubt that direct entry pilots will appear at Cathay,getting type rated pilots is one thing,but getting them up and running as line pilots at CX is another,and time ladies and gents is money.The DFO knows this,and goodwill is very,very hard to regain once lost,this is sailing very close to the wind indeed,it is a "Cold War" stand off.As the Americans found later,the perceived threat was far less potent than originally thought.Only time will tell on this one,either management ease up,or I believe CX will go under eventually in time,certainly as a place to work.

Cathay have an enviable reputation amongst first world carriers,with passengers and pilots alike,however,this is partly due to the fact that in the SE Asia region Cathay have not suffered a hull loss,whilst neighbouring carriers have a somewhat less enviable reputation,passegers know this too.
Why I hear you ask?Because of the standard of the Flt Ops division and pilots,which is now quite amazingly being jeopardised.
It will IMHO be a SHORT term gain,but almost inevitably a LONG term LOSS to Cathay if contract pilots are hired to break the pilots,I for one am shocked to see this type of behaviour from a once great airline.I use the past tense,as I fear the best days are well and truly gone.Good luck,I sincerely hope a successful outcome is achieved.Quo vardis

3rd Aug 2001, 17:17
Sir4Short. You are indeed very short of the knowledge of labour rules in Hong Kong. It is unlawful to strike during working hours without the approval of the company involved. You may however, strike during off duty periods. As you will appreciate, an all out strike is no go in Hong Kong. The only recourse is a work to rule, or a WOE campaign (withdrawal of effort) which has been tried before. Unfortunately, neither of them have much teeth.

4th Aug 2001, 02:44
Rommel,you are correct when you say "I believe Cathay will go under eventually in time,..."
Tyler and Co are doing to Cathay Pacific what Abeles and Co did to Ansett over a decade ago. A very sad state of affairs to watch the demise of what were once two very outstanding Airlines.

I wouldn't bet on Cathay having no contract direct entry pilots in the near future. Singapore Airlines have always had them and are a very successful airline,although you operate on a less liberal "conract" than in Cathay.

Good luck fellas.

4th Aug 2001, 04:31
To scab or not to scab.....when y'all go on strike and there's a picket line to cross...then worry about it...

Edmund Spencer
4th Aug 2001, 04:54
Beware the interim results due out, I believe, on 8 August.

There have been none too subtle hints that things will look pretty bleak and I don't suppose we will have to look very far for who is to blame.

If I remember correctly the last time Cathay announced poor results there were quite substantial numbers of lay offs although the 'airgroup' enjoyed a degree of protection at that time.

I suspect that any sympathy for the pilots has largely disappeared in the present climate and shouldn't be in the least bit surprised if there are a significant number of sackings due 'belt tightening'!

Kaptin M
4th Aug 2001, 06:04
Blowing $10 million per day (on wet-leased aircraft) for 40 days , on the OFFCHANCE that the pilots MIGHT have gone on strike, leaves no doubt as to who is costing Cathay the BIG money.
Haul their asses up before the shareholders to try to justify this ludicrous, unnecessary expenditure, rather a their lack of accountability!

4th Aug 2001, 22:28
The Scab

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab.

A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and Angels weep in Heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.

No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a SCAB is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.

--Jack London

Established !
5th Aug 2001, 03:54
Judging by news reports, the bottom line:
Ops normal !
This issue like old soldiers will fade, fade away.
Sorry for the 53 though !

Ignition Override
5th Aug 2001, 08:49
TR4A: Excellent description. The TR4 was a fun English car.

People rarely mention the doctor's union (the American Medical Assoc.) and the attorney's union (the American Bar Assoc.).

How about the airline mgmt unions, the Air Transport Assoc. and the Regional Airline Assoc.?

Do foreign airlines also belong to similar associations?

5th Aug 2001, 15:06
a tr6 is much better...the next to last paragraph in your "soliloqy" there tr4 is a bit off the mark...take CO for example...scabs as they officially were were rewarded with permanent jobs, and union membership eventually...the union leadership has to invent another approach to ward off possible scabs, because after the CO "mass forgivness" the stigma of being a scab is cast aside..

5th Aug 2001, 22:13
>>>>a tr6 is much better...the next to last paragraph in your "soliloqy" there tr4 is a bit off the mark...<<<<

This was written by Jack London (1876-1916)
from Oakland California.

The TR4A is a great car. All steel and a wood dash with real knock wire wheels.

Ignition Override
6th Aug 2001, 08:41
TR4A: Our Dad had to sell the TR4 because we got too big for the back seat. Jack London was very perceptive.

At Continental, at least the scabs will gradually retire. And they are not "Super Scabs" under Gordon Bethune, according to an older CO guy who jumpseated with us from EWR. He said that you can often spot them because of the way they walk. But think about this formerly well-kept secret: several years ago, "Aviation Week" stated that about 20% of Delta's pilots did not belong to ALPA. Apparently almost all belong now. I guess they finally admitted to themselves that they too are blue-collar employees. This is a difficult concept for many civilian and military pilots (Citation, Beech-1900, FB-111, KC-135, SD3-30, take your pick) to grasp, if they are too impressed with themselves and/or the stripes on their shoulders and sleeves.

One of my FOs flew with Cathay, and has been back in the US over two years: he was an FO and has the 777 and 744 type ratings from there, but has no plans to convert them to US ratings or fly widebodies again (body clock).

He said that many of the remarks on PPrune in the past about Cathay were nowhere near the truth.

[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

emiel luther
6th Aug 2001, 09:58
Friend or Foe. To be or not to be. Them or us. If you are NOT in my gang, then you must be ENEMY.

Those dubbed as SCABS have questional values, but they appear no WORSE than the greedy, selfish, intimidating bullies that are attacking them.

As the baddies are always the people on the other side, it stands to reason I am the goody.

Now which side should I choose ? Anyone got a coin ?

6th Aug 2001, 15:22
As much as I hate to admit it, Mapshift makes a valid point re scabs ultimately being accepted into the fold.

Following the Ozzy 89' dispute and the Australian Airlines/Qantas merger the Qantas pilot group happily embraced the Australian Airlines scabs...which is why I have no time for Qantas pilots any more!

Not that I had much time for them before mind you!


Kaptin M
6th Aug 2001, 17:02
Sorry to disagree, Amos, but "scabs" are never 'embraced'. They ALWAYS remain an ODDITY - individuals who are never accepted unilaterally, but who carry the stigma of their actions, not only by their fellow workmates, but also by their family. Unfortunately for them, it is an issue that will ALWAYS be raised when tempers flare within the family circle....as supportive of their actions as their family may have seemed at the time for a quick resolution to the pressure!

The QF International pilots (to my knowledge) have never, EVER, "embraced" these people. Remember that QANTAS went through a strike in the '60's which say the (few) scabs then, ostracised to the extent that even when the son of one of "them" drowned, NOT ONE QF pilot felt the compassion to support that pilot at the funeral. Certainly a hard decision in my mind - but then the act of "scabbing" similarly requires no LESS heartlessness, when one considers the consequences that the company intends to be reigned on the employees and their families, by the utilization of scab labor.

To scab, or not to scab - whether it be Cathay, Continental, Ansett or whomever is next - requires a CONSCIENTIOUS DECISION by those who decide to do the act, that they will promote their own future at the the expense of several others. In the short term, the company will use one scab as a replacement for 3 or 4 workers - hence the term "scab"...a temporary cover (crust) that has a limited period of application!

6th Aug 2001, 18:21
Very temporary...they only last until retirement...now most with full union bennies...c'mon guys...not advocating sticking one's nose into someone else's dispute...but there has to be a more enlightened way to address the scab problem.....

Tool Time
6th Aug 2001, 19:49
If a coin is needed to choose, then the choice has already been made.