Arrow endorsment

[RAM750]

just a quick question... do flying schools usually let u have an arrow endorsment while still on GFPT or does it have to be done post PPL due to the higher performance of the aircraft?

cheers

[Islander Jock]

G'day RAM750,

No regulatory reason at all why you cannot do a CSU/RG endorsement whilst holding a GFPT. Remember the endorsement is for special design features and not aircraft type. So provided you meet the experience requirements (mainly for insurance) and can display an ability to handle the aircraft you can legally fly something like a C210 or Bonanza. Without wanting to sound patronising though , whilst you're still in a steep learning curve finishing your PPL you would perhaps find these types to be more than a handful.

Of course common sense has to prevail here and you should stick initially with the more docile aircraft like P28R or C172RG. I'm sure your flying school would recommend the same.

I know a guy who had only just gained a GFPT and bought himself a very nice Arrow 200. Unfortunately he didn't perservere with flying and never quite got comfortable with the aeroplane. Point I am making is that he was able to jump into his arrow and blast off into the training area. He did fall for the trap though that a lot of Arrow pilots do, that is he had the nav lights on during the day which dims the landing gear down lights to the point of them being almost impossible to see any illumination. A lot of the twr/ATC folk are aware of this one and first question they ask when an arrow pilot declares "pan pan" with landing gear failure is to "check your nav lights" :D

[I Fly]

We do most of our navigation training in a C 172RG and the students have no problem. Check your School's insurance requirements. Remember though, that you are still the holder of a Student Pilots Licence and all endorsements have to type endorsements. The design feature endorsements are only possible if you have a PPL or higher.

[gaunty]

Given enough bucks and a big enough airport or training area there is technically no reason you couldn't do your GFPT in a B747-400.

Now wouldn't that be a buzz hey.

JAL toyed with that concept some years ago and Lufthansa went a fair way down that track, sadly airline economics and other events overtook them.
The idea being that if you get 'em early enough you can train 'em from Day1 on exactly how YOU want them to do it and you dont then have to spend all that time retraining and removing all those "habits" they pick up during their "apprenticeship" out there.:rolleyes:

IJ as usual has wise counsel, learn to walk properly before you run.

And yes a C172RG is the best place to start:D it's just a C172 with CSU and retractable that flies exactly like a C172.
:p

BTW does the Arrow still have that idiot automatic gear thingy??;)

[Islander Jock]

I FLY,
:confused:

I admit to not being an instructor but I beg to differ on you interpretation of when a Special Design Feature endorsement can be given.


CAR 5.68 What kind of aircraft may an instructor permit a student to fly as pilot in command?
An authorised flight instructor must not permit a student pilot to fly an aircraft as pilot in command unless:
(a) the aircraft is of a type:
(i) in which the student pilot has received flying training; and
(ii) that the student pilot can safely fly as pilot in command; or
(b) if the student pilot has passed a general flying progress flight test for the category of aircraft that the student proposes to fly:
(i) the student holds a type endorsement or a class
endorsement for the aircraft; and
(ii) if the aircraft is an aeroplane that has a special design
feature—the student holds a special design feature
endorsement for the aeroplane.




Gaunty,

Yes mate, the Arrow does still have that annoying automatic gear extension thingy. However we normally leave ours in manual override

[McIce]

I think the answer is 'Where does it state you have to have a PPL prior to a CPL'
Para 2:8:5 in Oz Day VFR Syllabus explains what training you may undertake.
i.e as a non PPL holder and GFPT student(Under the correct supervision & conditions) you may take training towards thing such as Multi Engine, CSU, Retractable,spinning, NVR ETC the list goes on

[gaunty]

IJ

I think? you're right.

There is no such thing as type rating on singles nor will there be on multis up to 5700kgs when we get properly harmonised.

There might be an override applied by the operator and/or his insurance but I don't think it is a regulatory thing?

[I Fly]

Islander jock, I stand corrected. My old brain just flys from memory. Merry Christmas

[Islander Jock]

No wukkas IF,

The only reason I went to CARs is because I wasn't 100% sure myself. Usually I ask my good lady wife who can quote verbatim all this crap.

Merry Christmas to you also.

:) :) :)

[rmcdonal]

Yes you can get the endorsment.
I know this because I did it just a few days ago, and I only have a GFPT and a pass in theory PPL.
(not old enuf to get a full PPL License):cool:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Excuse me for diverting the thread but...

what is the "Arrow automatic gear thingy??" :confused:

PAF

[gaunty]

P. A. F.

It was an attempt by Piper to "idiot proof" what in their line was the entry level retractable.

By a simple means of low MAP sensing (closed throttle) and configuration interconnect if it sensed that the aircraft was in the "landing configuration" with the wheels up, it would put them down "automatically" for the pilot.

Problem was there were quite a few configurations flown during non landing ops that "tricked" the system into operation oftentimes exactly when you didn't need it, further confusing the "idiot" they were trying to "save". :D

It was good idea, but introduced a further and unneccesary complication into the retractable loop.

IJ will have a more concise description I'm sure;)

[airstairs]

By a simple means of low MAP sensing (closed throttle) and configuration interconnect if it sensed that the aircraft was in the "landing configuration" with the wheels up, it would put them down "automatically" for the pilot.

From memory the PA-28R had an additional mast on the left side of the fuselage to sense airspeed. If auto's enabled and speed too low....wheels go down (and also speed too low wheels won't come up).

One reason quoted to me for it's removal was the possibility of debris dumped by the pilot thru the storm window (cig butts etc) may catch and block the inlet causing a gear extension at crz speed. Dunno how likely it would be, but.....

Most of the Piper singles I've flown have had the "feature" removed.

[mustafagander]

The PARO auto gear extend abortion has a very big gotcha - if the engine quits, the airflow (pitot) sensor on the fuselage LHS detects the lack of slipstream and dutifully dumps the gear. Tends to shorten the glide a bit!! :o

[McIce]

The Arrow I fly has this system disconnected for training purposes. i.e you dont need the undercarriage deploying during stall training etc.
I am sure most flying schools with Arrows will have a similar set up.

[I Fly]

Again some one might proof me wrong. My understanding is the in the US some pilots developed the habit of leaving the undercarriage selector in the up position all the time and let the automatic do the work. Well you guessed it, the automatic sometimes fails and the 'idiot' lands with wheels up. With the other problems already mentioned a SB or AD was issued to have the automatic removed or disabled and placarded. There should be something in the AFM regarding what was done.

[puff]

Whats the saying make it idiot proof and they make a better idiot :)

The few Arrows i've flown one had the system completely removed and the others operated with it in the override position. The ones I did fly with the system had a flyscreen over it obviously to stop bugs getting in.