Vb Wants Ya Baby!!

[E.P.]

VB is proposing to increase its fleet by four A/C EACH MONTH, next year.

My very young disciple has 1203 hrs total and a start date.

(Providing she passes her final ATPL exam.)

She will probably be a Checkie by Easter!

[Mr Wright]

What's wrong with 1200 or so hours. Q requires less than half of that!!!!

[E.P.]

This was meant to be a positive post, not a spear chuck.

This is a giggle though. During the interview she was asked

about a certain historical "Aviation event" and her interest in

aviation at that time.

She respectively advised that she was just 8 yrs old at the

time!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Another masterstroke by Virgin management.

The lass is 22yo and will no doubt repay Virgin as a low maintenance employee who would never dream of creating industrial trouble.

With her 69K she will repay her endorsement in year one, then buy a nice little flat in BNE and a WRX ( just like all the bubble gum blondes on Chapel St).

At 23 she will get a 40k a year payrise and become part of the VB publicity machine- youngest female airline Captain in Australia. Can see the billboards and Women's Weekly articles now. The Virgin Blue publicity machine just got itself another 500k of free advertising and publicity.

A masterstroke again by VB!

And what of the risks? Inexperienced pilots and rapid growth. The risk was taken in 89 and a benign air environment saved the day.

On risk management VB may well do what QF has done. 250 below 5000, 210 by 10. On a STAR in Australia, nobody can get in trouble at those speeds!

Skill and experience is being taken out of airline flying for a very good reason.

A genuine good luck to the young lady. I feel we will all come to know her in the years to come. Courtesy of the VB publicity machine.

And my remark about WRX just a dig at all my airline pilot mates who possess this little run about that only looks any good strapped to a young blonde!

[E.P.]

Actually she turns 21 on Dec. 27.

Just had a PVT MSG. from another young female aviator with

almost the same experience, also with a start date.

Looks like VB will have TWO of the youngest female airline

Captains not only here, but possibly in the world.

However, please do not agree to the FHM magazine shoot!! It

would only prove a malediction.

[Sperm Bank]

Good luck to the both of them. I do think however that you may be a little off the mark in regard to when they get their commands. They need 5000 hours as far as I know and then will get in line behind the 180 f/o's in front of them, all of whom have over 1200 hours. Perhaps 3 to 5 years they might be looking good. Still not too bad having a command on a 737 at 25 is it?

[Gnadenburg]

Sperm Bank

Reference your remark about the 180 F/Os in front of them, do you have seniority?

Otherwise their rapid promotion, with all that publicity, may be for the general good of the company.

[Boeing Belly]

Mr Wright, 1200 hours would get you a job as a Second Officer in Qantas. A position that you would fill for perhaps 3-5 years. In that time you would be exposed to many different, very experienced pilots. You would also do many re-newels in the sim as well as revals etc. All of this builds on your "all round" experience so that when you are promoted to the front seat there is a good chance that you will do a competant job.

In respect of this young girl, she is I'm sure a lovely young lady and may even have a natural aptitude for the job. But I'm sorry to say she will probably end up being a burden to the Captain. A Captain has the right to expect that his/her First Officer is up to the job. He/she shouldn't have to carry the load on every leg. I have many friends who have operated with VERY in-experienced F/Os in Europe and more recently in a Regional Airline based in Singapore. Some of the stories are what nightmares are made of!!!

[bitter balance]

Boeing Belly, nothing like making a sweeping generalisation on the abilities of someone you have never met, backgrounded or flown with. There are many, many cases where people of her background have cut it. It is (or at least was) de rigeur in Europe for low time FOs to fly in the RHS.

If she passes the endorsement and subsequent checks she belongs there.

[stick_&_rudder]

Have to agree with Gnadenburg! Believe it's more of a publicity stunt, rather than a genuine want for that particular applicant.

Considering there has been numerous mention on similar threads of people with a lot more experience/skills applying and not even getting a look at.

I personally believe that seeing a bit of experience "up the front" inspires confidence in the travelling public. I know I feel safe when I see the Captain's hair is greying a little.

[E.P.]

It is all perspective. How many of you had 1200 hrs when you

were 20? Age vs Experience, she is quite experienced.

Project ahead, at 900hrs a year she will have 10,000hrs at 30yrs

and almost 20,000hrs at 40yrs of age!!

In any event I believe a stellar and rapid career is planned for

both these young ladies. I can already see Sir Dick grinning at

the very thought of 6 young blondes (2 up front, 4 in rear) ALL

UNDER 23YRS, doing the inaugural flight into some exotic locale!!

It is classic Sir Dick!!

[strewth]

personally believe that seeing a bit of experience "up the front" inspires confidence in the travelling public. I know I feel safe when I see the Captain's hair is greying a little.

A as passenger numerous times over the last 5 years with Qantas, Virgin Blue and Ansett, I have never EVER seen the flight crew. You might feel safe with a grey haired old captain up front, but most people don't even look. So whats the difference!?!?!??!

BTW, congrats to those that got in, and good luck for what looks like a long and fulfilling career. I hope to join you soon!

[Tagneah]

Go for it Girls. Good on ya!

On the subject of if it is a publicity stunt, I dont think the whole female issues rates a mention. Im sure there are blokes in the DJ camp who got in with less than 1200. So, as was said above, if you get a tick in all the right boxes then you have right to be there. If it is a stunt then its not like it hasn't been done before. I recall a story of a 19yo Female S/O in QF who was sent to pick up a new 767 sixth months after completing her cadetship.

Nice work if you can get it!

(and I just got it - seeya online girls!!!!):D :D

[stick_&_rudder]

Strewth

Up until the tragedy of late last year, anyone with an interest in aviation was encouraged to take a look up front, have a chat and if you were lucky, ride in the jump seat for landing.

I am surprised that as a passenger over the last 5 years, you have not taken advantage of this opportunity, maybe if you took more of an interest you would be joining them sooner!

[one ball]

This is a giggle though. She respectively advised that she was just 8 yrs old at the time!!!
Oh how cute, EP, how CUTE.....

[Beech Boy]

Wake up and smell the roses!!

There is an awful lot of work to complete before you get a command- on anything!!

Namely:
Opportunity,
Experience,
Proven Capability, and
Then you have to keep proving it.
Grey hair does not really fit into any of the categories.
If you are doing it well enough, for long enough, you will get there.

Seniority, what was that again???

The roses that you might be smelling could be the ones you take to the cockpit one day - as a token of your professional respect of course. With the little card attached noting the beige WRX goes just as well as the puce.
;)

[Karunch]

Gnadenburg- the Wrx was ok when you borrowed mine!. Girls car, I think not.

[Life as a journey]

Excellent news EP. Another good luck story.

Bummer about the grumpy-bums who just puke any time they hear, read or see happiness, good timing or just plain good vibes.

Go hard EP-girl.

Go hard VB.

[high talker]

Just wondering if these lovely ladies meet all the requirements for VB and had 500 hours twin etc etc.

All the best to them, and the others who make it.

[Farknel]

....... Meanwhile, if you are old enough to be the father of one of these future "God's Gifts to Aviation", with 6 or 7 times their experience - on relevant aircraft types - then VB don't want to know about you!

I wonder if I invested in a bit of make-up, a blonde wig, and a tight mini skirt, would it manage to attract the attention of Sir RB?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Qduck]

15000 hrs +. Mostly turbo props. C & T Brasilia. 15 years service is not enough to get you an FOs slot on the F100 at Alliance!! Yet!!

But there are still people waiting in the queue. Mainly AN types with **** loads of experience who have been blackballed and hate the VJ.

If VJ are going to apply their cabin cew approach to the flight deck then they are goners.

Doing orbits into Darwin because they f* cked up their profile at 1 in the morning means nothing to Jo public. Bending a shiny new Boooinngg will. Over running the runway and having it covered up helps. Having alpha floors save your arse does as well.

I just feel sorry for the good ol'boys at VJ if they are forced to put up with this plastic blonde pilot ****.

We are happy little virginites,
As happy as can be.
We press the buttons,look quite good
But what the hell is VNE.

Good luck boys.



:D

[elektra]

I really can’t believe this…a few hours ago Woomera told us that we can’t go on too much about 198* for a lot of reasons that I sort of understand. Fair enough. Not my bulletin board and I am sure that anyone wanting to know the truth about 198* can find out without some of us making undisciplined posts here for all to see. So we accept some limitations.

I recall that as I approached Christmas in that year I was unemployed, nearing 40 with a good assortment of young children feeling the weight on my shoulders of the decision I had made to stick with the secret vote I had cast (and my friends). This year, after a lot of hard yards, a lot of time on the ground, the kids are older, the bride still loves me and I fly the best Boeing ever made by far. So the 13 years have been good, all in all.

But this anti-female, anti-low hour pilot stuff bugs me. A lot. I was lucky enough to score my single stripe as an F27 F/O at under 20 and under 500 hours. That was then. And without a strong, democratic pilots organization behind me I would never, ever, ever have got a command many years later. I would never have had “the right stuff”.

If a fast growing airline like Virgin chooses to hire a mix of people, old, young, blonde, otherwise etc and not necessarily include everyone who, by their own admission should be hired, then so what? If Branson and JR had never started up the show there’d be no jobs at all and you’d all be sweating blood on the democratic, transparent and unbiased QF recruiting system!

As a result of 198* I have spent much of the last 13 years flogging around Europe and Asia with F/Os probably much less suited to the job than the young lady in question. She will earn her next stripes in an environment much less cosseted than that at QF and will, I’ll bet, be a bl**dy good captain in a few years. Our first ever woman jet pilot has been an asset to KLM for years now and yet she wasn’t good enough for the post 198* Ansett. Well I guess time has shown whose recruiting practices were best. And Virgin has simply followed on and chosen who it wants rather than those who, as in 198*, felt that the world owed them a job.

Good luck to you Miss F/O who ever you are. I’m sorry Woomera if this has upset things. But in my little world all pilots get a fair go even if they’re young and less masculine than some.

Elektra.

[Gnadenburg]

Elecktra

Fair points. But the concerns are...

Virgin blue is leaking like a sieve. We have all heard the stories of the endorsement program and the relaxed nature of C&T.

Great. But 1203 hours is real skinny and a real risk if the recruitment norm.

Forget the 89 aspects but this is the cleaverest and most surreptitious management means of keeping pilot conditions down that I have witnessed. Think about it. JR is a pilot market genius and well deserving of any management bonuses that come his way.

Karunch.

Thanks for the lend of the WRX but didn't get ya Porsche to cruise Mid Levels last month!

EP

Most people i flew with had those hours at 21. Just so happens most didn't see 737 equipment until 23-26, 3-4000 hrs and regional command experience and / or a bit of map folding under their belt; aswell as a comprehensive 737 endorsement !

Good luck to all, honestly, my only concern the lack of Virgin investment in training if 1200 hours the benchmark.

[Mr Wright]

Sorry for my ignorance, but who's VJ??????

[djembe56]

Qduck - "I just feel sorry for the good ol'boys at VJ if they are forced to put up with this plastic blonde pilot ****."

Qduck you are truly pathetic.

Remember reading an article in a newspaper a few years back about Continental's first all-female flight crew. Although not a fan of RB's tacky style of advertising , if he should chose to advertise the fact that DJ have the youngest female Captains in Australia, it will send a positive message to women everywhere that there are opportunities for women in aviation, not just as cabin crew.

Oh dear....perhaps the 'boys' at the 'boys club' are feeling a bit threatened.

[CaptCaveman]

EP,

With reference to Farknels comment about the father/daughter age thing and DJ's well known "it's not what you know but who you know" recruitment methods.

Are they the daughters of DJ pilots/managment, or just two very fortunate young pilots(to get the interview with their low experience/age) who have passed all interview/recruitment requirements?

Some clarification on their backgrounds may make people less cynical regarding their recruitment and DJ's supposed PR plans.

Congrats to the young pilots concerned.

[Capt Claret]

Qduck,

Perhaps Virgin's AOC should be revoked because some one stuffed up a descent? Who cares? We all stuff it up at some time, I know I've watched Ansett do the same, and having cought the cabin, done it myself.

In what walk of life does 'knowing' someone not have some bearing? :confused:

[Dehavillanddriver]

Some of you are amazing.

You get an airline that is prepared to hire across the entire spectrum of experience and you whinge!

The NORM as some put it - isn't 1200 hr girlies. The norm is that there is no norm!!

The recruits joining DJ are from a wide cross section of experience.

When AN fell over last year many many experienced turboprop and jet guys/gals got a start. In amongst that lot were people with heaps of medium/heavy jet hours, and people with nothing but light piston twin time.

Since then the mix has remained about the same - the only thing that changes is the ratio...

what would you all prefer. DJ hires all inexperienced people as F/O's and kept them there forever - hiring direct entry foreigners to fill the command vacancies - or hire a mix of people - some that can be promoted reasonably quickly and some that will need a number of years as F/O's to gain the exposure.

There are plenty of 1200 hours pilots out there that could fly rings around some of the more experienced people - I fly with some people that have heaps of hours and quite frankly they couldn't fly a magic carpet - you fly with others with significantly less experience and they are excellent.

It isn't the number of hours it is the person....

And at the end of the day if you don't like it don't apply

[Aladdin]

JUST FOR YOUR INFO, I KNOW OF FIVE FO'S FROM REX (HAZO'S) ALL STARTING EARLY NEXT YEAR, ALL AROUND 30 YEARS AND 4000 HRS!:D

[Gnadenburg]

Devil

I would suggest all latest generation airliners are "magic carpets". Superb autopilots and flight controls.

"Fly rings around more experienced..." you make it sound like an aerobatic routine.

In light of the above it may just be the management of the show that is critical in todays airline flying. Drawing on you and your crewmembers experience to ensure the safe and efficient operation of the airliner, whatever untoward situation may present.

I am glad you have clarified the recruitment norm.

What does worry me though, in a rapidly expanding airline without all the training/safety systems in place and the possibility of an overburdened flight department, is how liberally some of the Virgin Blue Young Turks dismiss the value of experience.

Agree, a small percentage of very experienced pilots still dopes.

[SydGirl]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is the problem?

Is it because she's female? Young? Or was it because she hasn't "done her time in eighty-nine"?

For *****'s sake lads, wake up to yourselves. It's bloody brilliant to see some fresh blood coming into the airlines without prior prejudice or opinion.

EP I wish your two friends all the best, and I am sure they have a most enjoyable career ahead of them.

SG
:)

[Sperm Bank]

Sydgirl the problem is there IS NO PROBLEM! It's just some of these vacuous morons (and I think vacuous is doing them justice) have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. This anal retentive mentality is all too evident in Oz. All around the world there are pilots with much less experinece than these two girls getting airline jobs. I spent years in Europe training 250 hours sprogs and whislt they are no where near the level of competence of some of the more experienced pilots to start with, they do come good very quickly.

I really do feel very sorry for some of the people who contribute bitter and twisted comments evident on this thread. If we could harness all that negative energy and convert it into something positive what a wonderful place it would be.

Unfortunately here in Oz, that would be far too much like common sense. Just watch al the "well go back to Europe" comments. I rest my case!

[SmallGlassofPort]

I for one am jealous. Man, I've being applying since Aug 01 and hear zip, I deserve that job....

Good onya Girls, go get em!

[Gnadenburg]

sperm bank

Big statements. Will take your word for it but many people I have spoken to feel differently.

One thing for certain, what you are getting paid now at VB is probably what you will be getting paid in 10 years time, if Mr Corrigan discovers 250hr pilots meet your grade.

Market forces, supply and demand and there is no dearth of 250hr pilots around the place!

When a terrible accident is caused by inexperienced pilots, for example some Middle Eastern and Asian carriers. The reaction is to place strict experience requirements on commands/newjoiners etc. This has happend and preserved the pay of pilots in some parts of the world, despite the Sept 11 downturn.

Experience requirments are good, you don't want to be too easily replacable Sprem Bank, as your back pocket affected!

Syd Girl

Most aren't taking issue with affirmitive action policies, we all know deep down females have the perfect temperament and management disposition for the flight deck, more a crack at the experience levels.

[I'm with stupid]

Oh god!!!!please don't get into the experience v no experience argument, it is unwinnable, those with it reckon it's a great asset, those without it reckon you don't need it.

I am led to believe that the hiring of people of limited experience by VB is not a publicity stunt, but in anticipation of them spending a while ( 3-5 years ) in the RHS.

At the present ( as a general rule ) only people with previous jet experience are getting commands in under a year ( much under ! ) and people with T/Prop experience in around a year ( Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, so don't bother with the tirade ).

Virgin don't wan't a heap of 10000hr + guys stuck in the RHS when the expansion eventually slows down.

Anybody who has been involved in C&T in both Europe and Oz would not be comparing the 250hr specials with the general level of competence of an FO in Oz. There are very few pilots who can go into something like a 737 from GA and be an ace straight away ( be they 1200 hours or 4000 ), although there are quite a few that think they are ;)

[E.P.]

Geez kids, I only wished to pass on some positive news before

Xmas, not seethe the sebaceous masses!!

In reply to questions asked:

She indeed has an affluent, grinning, hirsute, limey pushing all the right buttons. (Its three recommendations req'd, right? or just one big one!)

She has Biz Jet experience. (As they say in PNG, "worry belong you.")

During the interview she was asked how she would handle being a Captain inside of 12 months AND how she would handle, say a grumpy 12,000hr jet jock F/O.

Please allow ME to answer; Grumpy chump and every other hetro jock will be to busy wiping the bovine dribble off their chinny chin chins after they hear, see and breathe in the blonde little Miss UK!!,(to even notice that she can indeed cut it.)

BTW, I think you will discover a young fellow with under 3000hrs total doing his upgrade as we deliberate. So why all the rococo??

To: 'Drachm of port', EVERY normal, well balanced, suitable applicant deserves at least an interview. J.R. has some issues, however I believe a change is in the wind. Sincerely, good luck.

Oh and 'One ball' (Damn! I feel for ya mate); Man don't you wish you could have been there when she said that? Cute? I was so glad I was in my mates pool, so nobody knew how hard I laughed!! Remember, you were once a no hour sprog before and achieved a good job, so will you again.

Merry Chrissy kids.

[grrowler]

Geez, what am I doing working towards VB's min requirements, they aren't even needed by the looks of it! :eek:

EP,
I don't doubt she will be able to do the job, but surely you can understand people getting a little narky when pilots who actually meet the requirements aren't even given a chance to prove themselves in an interview.
But hopefully, as you suggest, that will change.

[one ball]

ummm...... actually I was being facetious. But there's no 'smilie' for that.

as for the name, don't worry chicks dig it!!

[I'm with stupid]

Not a betting man EP, but will make an exception.
20:1 she don't get a command within 2 years.

A few low time guys going for them, but not necessarily getting 'em, I can assure you they are not giving 3000 hour guys a go because of the abundance of 12000 hour guys:rolleyes:

[E.P.]

You're on my swarthy friend.

A 1.5Lt bottle of Finlander Vodka, shaken not stirred.

........and please check the current Sim. program for an ex-sunnies fella doing his upgrade. :)

[mjbow2]

EP....

We have all been in the position that many of these posters are complaining about. Less qualified, (read less hours only), recipients of nepotism (cronyism/old boys club....or whatever), affirmative action candidates have and will get jobs before other suitable candidates.

Guys, we know this happens on a daily basis. We dont like it but it happens. Live with it. Long before I got my ATP I realised that my qualifications mean less than my ability to network my way into a job. And thats exactly what I did at 207 hours tt into the right seat of a regional turboprop....

Lets not complain about the goalposts that seem to shift every five minutes, we cant do anything about it!

I envy those two chicks....they did what they had to to get a job and I will continue to do what I know will get me a job. Network not fly!

Good luck girls

[marshall]

Aviation needs more ladies!

Good luck girls!

[amos2]

So mjbow2, are you saying that you do what you have to do to get a job even tho that might mean screwing anybody who gets in your way...or have I misread you? :confused:

[mjbow2]

Simple answer is no....but who got screwed here? <cornfused>!

[LooseConnection]

No offence "marshal" but who said they were ladies? :D

[hoss]

The way I read it was EP's daughter and her female friend had job offers from DJ.

Naturally, EP is a Very proud Father.:)

Safe flying, hoss

[marshall]

I don't understand some people's mentality! :confused: :confused: :confused:

Whenever a lady gets to a high position within a company why is it automatically assumed she opened her legs to get there?:eek:

Grow up guys! :mad:

Welcome aboard VB girls!!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

[SOPS]

I am glad we are back to the thread, but at a later date, I will start another. Just checked to line a 25 yo girl, with 3200 hours, as a 737-800 captain. And she made the standard ( and we do have a BIG one), and she was not alone.

But as I said, I will talk about this later.

And no, I dont work for VB

[knackeredII]

A lot of people missing the point here! What 1200 hrs at age 21 says to the employer is this:

He/she knows exactly what he wants to do and

Has already done the hard work to get there, with no beating around the bush and

This is the sort of person we want in our cockpit.

The attitude shown by an early achiever like this is worth quite a bit of experience and can't be compared to your lowtime, inexperienced F/o alluded to by Boeing Belly earlier (who most likely became pilots because it looks like a good job!).

Good luck to these girls, they've already shown they have what it takes and that's what the management of VB sees.

[outboundjetsetter]

well... good luck to everyone. They say the secret to sucess is to acutually 'mind your own bussiness...?
but hey guys , do you think the bank will loan me another 20 thou to get my 737 type rating- being a 23 yr old male and all ;)

[Gnadenburg]

Knackered2

You sound like a fellow spending too much time in your Fleet Manager's office and blinded by spin!

If experience means nothing, which is generally bellowed by the inexperienced and the Virgin Blue 737 Advanced Flight Training Program is churning out 1000 hour satisfactory products how will this affect pay and conditions in the future?

Why would Mr Corrigan give in to any reasonable pay demands when his specialist work force is so easily replacable? As experience means nothing in this benign air environment.

Brisbane house prices will continue to increase, inflation eats away as always but in real terms Virgin pay will slide further behind.

A recent F/A course was told by managemnt 5 years service max. I am cynical and believe this is because after this long service leave is pro rata payable! Virgin Blue is using turnover( for ground staff and F/As ) and low experience levels to keep wages down. It is brilliant and the aviation risk minimal-brand new planes and easy flying makes experience not so critical.

Don't kid yourself. One big happy Virgin family but shrewd and clever management. Inexperience will always keep Virgin blue wages in check!

Your only hope prohibitively expensive ab initio flying training costs to keep the hoardes away. And i doubt that will do it.

[knackeredII]

Well then I guess experience counts for nothing, Gnadenburg. You're reading far too much into this but, hey, don't let me get in the way of a good conspiracy theory. You're spending far too much time in the depths of your own mind.

[one ball]

You're spending far too much time in the depths of your own mind.
hehe... I think you all are....:eek:


________________________________________________
what is the sound of one ball slapping

[Icarus2001]

Slightly off topic but since it has been raised...what do Virgin crews earn? One post above mentions $69K with a $40K pay rise on transition to LHS, I understood the wages were higher than that for F/Os?

It is interesting to consider how low wages could go. GA pilots happy to be out of 30 year old under equipped aircraft and into a shiny new Boeing in the flight levels. What is that worth? What does a first year graduate GP earn or a law graduate after 5-6 years at university?

Interesting to compare.

[Mr. Hat]

Or better still Icarus - is there a limit? How low can pilots wages go? A geniune question (no bashing please).

What is the award for an FO...69K?

Sorry off the topic...good luck girls and to all those getting a gig - must be nice to be out GA.

Its good to hear of a few GA drivers getting a go.

[longjohn]

Could not agree more Gnadenberg.

Irrespective of age or sex there is no combination for the right mix of experience, training and a level mature head.

If a young pilot receives adequate training and is allowed to apply that and further learn through experience then they should be promoted as soon as practicable. The 5 year command at Ansett after the dispute proved that even in a major airline a quick command was possible (yes, even at 25).

I do not know (honestly) if the DJ training machine is that advanced.

[Knave]

There is the minor issue of what the passengers might think of a 25 year old captain.

[ftrplt]

Knave,

whats the difference between a 25 yr old capt that started at maybe 18, or a 32 yr old capt that starts at flying at 25?

[djembe56]

Can't remember the last time I actually caught sight of the Captain when sitting in 14D. Do they have their date of birth imprinted on their hats or something? Really now, who cares? Flown heaps in GA with very young 'Captains' and always assumed that they had adequate experience and had gone through all the CASA checks which enabled them to fly RPT services. Of course the older one gets, the younger the pilots (and doctors etc) look. Would be far more concerned with the idea of having 4 x 18 yo FAs on board - although perhaps DJ won't be rostering such younguns on together after the fiasco in Melbourne the other week.

[slice]

djembe56 - Oh do tell! Grist for the mill!

[djembe56]

Well.....not that I'm one to gossip of course....

Apparently four 18 yo FAs were overnighting in Melbourne recently and they got so drunk they all called in sick the next morning.

And then there's the one about the DJ FA who had to ask the Captain to close the door to the aircraft. Apparently it's only a CASA requirement that they know how to open the door.

Mmmmmm......

[Knave]

I work in the aviation industry, so Im aware of the fact that its perfectly feasable to have a 25 year old with the background required to command a 737. The problem is that the passengers down the back DONT have an aviation background, and know diddly squat about whats involved.
There is a common mental image the public has of what kind of person has the personality and experience to be an airline captain. If you asked them at what age they believed an individual had reached the point where they were settled down, well grounded, and had learnt through experience's both good and bad how to make sober judgement calls, I dont think many would pick 25. Look at it from an uninformed first time flyers point of view rather than from an insiders point of view. More seriously, look at it from an investigative journalists point of view on a slow news day after an incident.

[ftrplt]

Knave,

'There is a common mental image the public has of what kind of person has the personality and experience to be an airline captain. If you asked them at what age they believed an individual had reached the point where they were settled down, well grounded, and had learnt through experience's both good and bad how to make sober judgement calls, I dont think many would pick 25.'

Is this a known common mental image or your belief of what the common mental image is?

[Snowballs]

I think many pilots see this through rose coloured glasses and greatly inflated egos. In the 1940’s young men 25, flying bombers over Europe etc, were considered old! In the “unmentionable” years around 89/90 unmentionable airlines were shoehorning all sorts of has beens into the left hand seat to get their airlines back in the air.
Airliners did not fall out of the sky because they were being piloted by people of questionable background / age or experience.
If someone meets the standards set by reputable airlines, regardless of age or experience … so be it. The topic “Qantas bombs out in LOSA audit??” should be enough to silence the wingers. Get a life …. I am sure there are many fine GA pilots out there who given half a chance will make fine professional airline pilots, regardless of their perceived level of so called airline experience.
;)

[Gnadenburg]

Icarus

Can only hope a GA airline aspirant has the foresight to realise he spends 5 or so years in GA, but 20-30 years in airlines! Why erode future conditions?

Wages are pretty low at Freedom Air and as Knackered pointed out experience means nothing to Virgin Blue. So how about Virgin Blue "B" Scale?

Knave

You are alluding to the risk Virgin Blue is taking with training and experience. I think you are right. A serious incident will have them and CASA on the chopping block. The media will crucify them as their training shortcuts are well known amongst "Industry Consultants".

Knackered

You maybe a starry eyed office boy but I hope you realise that every million Mr C and Mr R shave off or maintain off your conditions at Virgin Blue would see about a 3% management bonus of those savings. So if they screw the pilot group a million in conditions they get a nice $30k bonus.

Time will tell on Virgin conditiuons. Corrigan has about 90% of the productivity he needs and the other 10% will come from payrises barely, if at all, keeeping up with inflation.

But many Virgin Blue pilots voting with their feet. One captain accepted last week into Dragonair and another 40 on the books.

Flying out of Brisbane( even if void of culture ) as a domestic airline pilot used to be the pinnacle of an aviation career. Not so with Virgin Blue. Poor conditions and tireless duties making it merely an extension of General Aviation.

[Woomera]

Amazing.

There were a number of occasions on this thread, that the sheer testostrone fuelled chauvinism tempted me to edit or lock, but it has been too much fun and too interesting to watch.:rolleyes:
The Princesses Woomera (27, BSc Hons, Senior Ministerial adviser on the environment, (her partner BSc Hons, BEng Hons, PhD running a NASA project), 24, BCom, Admin of large Electrical Trades Training Org were pressed into service to provide some balance for me.:p
It was the most I could do to prevent them from getting amongst it, but I am squeamish and hate the site of bleeding bodies and broken bones and they shoot the wounded too:D

These and many many other 'kids' are doing things at ages, that we would never have dreamed of, perhaps.

But when I think that my father, barely eighteen, was driving Wellingtons and Lancasters over Europe (delivered from the factory BTW by 'girls') and had me on his return in his 21st year, we always do underestimate youth.

Elektra makes a thoughtful and germane post and Gnadenbergs concerns regarding "experience" deserve reflection.

My only comment is to reflect on the introduction of the 'jet' into commercial service.

Might I suggest that there were then, very very few, except maybe the ex B47 or B52 drivers that had any "relevant" experience in "jet" operations.
Gazillion hours thrashing the old piston airliners around in the mid levels was scant preparation for the fundamentally different approach and skill sets required for jets.
May I suggest that the "experience" clock was effectively set to near zero for most, with some not making the transition at all.

Quality training did the job then and will do now.

'D P Davies' had much to say about this and it resulted in his seminal work on the subject.

Gender IMHO has never had anything to do with it, only the social mores of the time. Girls fly combat fighters at younger ages than that argued in this thread, I even found out that there was an all women crew on a Pacific Flight many days after. I couldn't tell.

Girlpower is here to stay dammit.:eek: :) :( :confused:

:edited by the Princesses and Mrs Woomera for politically correct dogma and doctrine.

[Knave]

ftrplt

My opinions are my own, and I can only offer what I believe to be the public attitude towards airline pilots is at this time. Feel free to put this down to the grumpy ravings of an embittered old man insanely jealous of youth and beauty. I personally have no problem with 25 year old captains, and I am in no position to make a judgement of the training standards at Virgin, not having seen them myself. What I can tell you is that aviation is a lot more than just the operation and administration of a section of the transport industry. It used to be we were taken at our word as professionals, but since the New Zealand Dash 8 court case fiasco I believe we have to consider every possible angle. Time to think about public perception, insurance companies, hostile government entities and espescially a sensationalist media out for scalps.
Sure, during the war 25 year captains were the norm. In the military a lot of responsibility is put on young shoulders and if I was ex military Id probably agree 25 was fine. If I was 24, Id agree 25 was fine, but now Im middle aged and bits keep falling off me when I get out of bed, I wouldnt give a 25 year old the keys to the Kingswood. My concern is perception, not fact.

Before everyone wakes up in the morning and starts ripping bits of flesh off me on the subject of age and experience, I think Ill transfer my concerns to a new thread of their own and leave the Virgin debate in peace. Please feel free to rip into me there.

[ftrplt]

Knave,

not trying to rip shreds old man, sounds like you cant afford to lose too many more anyway!:)

I am starting to get old enough to see how perceptions change as you get older, but still have some way to go! I can see where you are coming from.

I still dont believe that someones progression through the ranks should be affected by a belief of what the majority public perception is; its the airlines responsibility to ensure that its assessment system and training department are sufficiently robust to deal with the investigative journalist you seem to be concerned about.

I dont know anything about the Dash 8 fiasco you mention.

[Snowballs]

Gnadenburg

The salary and conditions offered by airlines like VB and Freedom are here to stay. Go back and read Australian history of the late 80’s or the US from the late 70’s.
Commercial aviation up until then was a proud profession but the likes of Frank Lorenzo destroyed the unity of pilots by dividing them and playing on the selfish instincts of some.
Read some books like “Grounded – Frank Lorenzo and the Destruction of Eastern Airlines” or look at the following link.
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/chasingthesun/innovators/florenzo.html
Abeles and his lap dog in Canberra later used similar tactics to divide the Australian profession. What you have left, condition wise, is now a way of life and a direct legacy of recent history.
There is no point whining about conditions in VB or other airlines, it was ALL of our own (pilots) doing.
If history repeats itself, things may go downhill even further.

[Knave]

My reference to the Ansett NZ Dash 8 case was prompted by my own views on media treatment of the pilot community. Thats a subject deserving of a posting all of its own.. not that many years ago news was about reporting the facts and granting people the benefit of the doubt. The NZ police did their best to alter the image of pilots from victims to perps.
My nightmare scenario is 'A Current Affair' looking for a ratings buster exclusive after an incident. You can see the way it would go. The authorities refuse to give up anything juicy because the crash is under investigation, the company likewise. The reporter has a limited amount of time to get something to fill in time between the Fatbuster ads and the nappy commercial. The captain was 25, the F/O 23, and the cabin crew around 18 and 19. I very well may be paranoid. I agree that companies shouldnt let these kinds of scenarios affect their operations, but they should prepare to deal with them if they arise.

[leftfrontside]

Ye're "Knave" wholeheartedly agree with you, I really don't care what age is in the LHS but I have found over the years the difference is that when the "sh....t" hits the proverbial:

THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING - ANYTHING

When I was a junior F/O one of Woomeras Dads mates told me when IT does happen, first item of recall "do nothing" THINK :)

Over almost 30yrs of "heavies" that advice has held me in very good stead. It worries me the 25 yr old "we gotta do something attitude"

:D :D

[Woomera]

leftfrontside

"do nothing" THINK

and

It worries me the 25 yr old "we gotta do something attitude"

I agree wholeheartedly.

However IMHO the problem is that the 25 yr olds nowadays are at once much better and much worse educated than we were.:confused:

I have been humbled and many times amazed by my children and their peer groups "maturity" and "decision making and handling processes" in real world "situations".

I have despaired and been many times totally frustrated by their lack of knowledge of so many things that you and I would reckon they should know. Son (20) and his mates can take it to anyone with computer and mind boggling technical smarts, but and this includes the aforementioned daughters "PhD rocket scientist"
partner, would be hard pressed to show you where the dipstick is and how the engine works, that's assuming that they could find the bonnet latch. :D

And yeah, Dad and his mates did not have the luxury of gauranteed EFATO performance for example, that has been brought to us by the evolution of the design and certification process and such a crisis was generally a real crisis that demanded rapid resolution after the "correct" diagnosis to survive ......yup indeed, do nothing, thimk,:eek: identify, confirm and resolve in that order was a hard learnt lesson. But then Dad and his mates also knew how to find the dipstick in their cars.

We have been fortunate that the certification process and computers have all but removed the necessity for "normal" critical decisions or actions to be made "instinctively" or "instantly" and the youngsters know and are trained for that.

Heavens to Murgatroyd; bubble sextant, drift sight, VAR, doppler nav, Decca chains, Loran even VLF/Omega............what the?
You mean you didn't have an FMC in your Lancaster pop.? :rolleyes:

So I don't think it is the "operation" of the aircraft that is the problem nowadays, it is dealing with the problems that Mother Nature throws up at random, that's something that only "experience", (if I may plagiarise and edit your quote,)

(the difference when the "sh....t" hits the proverbial),

can provide:

They are way better educated than Pop and ourselves and will be even more so in the future, as they won't even get on the " list", without a degree of some sort.
Whether this will be a good thing is moot, but until they can come up with a better "filter" it will most probably be the go.
So here we have bright motivated and educated kids sitting next to what they most probably see as eccentric old duffers, (my son and I would not be good together at least not for my ego anyway), who have much to teach them, notwithstanding that they already "know" everything.

The answer to that IMHO is our problem not theirs.

How do we pick our way through that lot and keep em motivated without stifling their progress.??????:( :cool:


Oh and something I nearly forgot to ask.

Do we want the brightest and the best in the front office of our birds.?
If we do, then we are going to have to make it interesting, challenging and attractive because there are more "career" options out there than I could have dreamed possible ALL competing for the same kids.
Or will the system as we know it, weed em out and leave us with the rest.?
I and many others my age (mid 50's), have already had several separate careers and the kids can expect at least 2 to 3 quite separate careers in their longer working lifetime which is going towards their late seventies.
Why should they not have a "career" in airlines to say 35-40 and go off and do something else.?

[I'm with stupid]

WW2 pilots !!??, do we really want the safety record of world war 2 pilots ( and I'm not including getting shot down ).
Sure, not too many lancs were invoved in CFIT or loss of orientation accidents, but you are unlikely to run into the ground at 25000'

The comparison of ww2 pilots to todays commercial/airline pilot is at best ridiculous, and remember, they did'nt send teenagers up in bombers and fighters because of an excess of experienced pilots did they?? it's called necessity.

[gaunty]

I'm with stupid

Whoa there big fella!.:D

There's some real tender egos round here, I have to keep reminding myself that there are pilots around here.:D

I don't think Woomera was comparing WW2 pilots to todays commercial/airline pilots.

If you read carefully, what he/she said, I think you will find that he/she was responding to leftfrontseats commentWhen I was a junior F/O one of Woomeras Dads mates told me when IT does happen, first item of recall "do nothing" THINK
as being the early post war airline Captains who were almost exclusively those that survived WW2.

NOT comparing WW2 with airlines.

If you haven't already done so I can recommend you should read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernie Gann. It's all explained in there.

As a matter of interest most of the post WW2 airliners were in any event derivatives of the WW2 bombers and transports.

[Guptar]

Excellent post Woomera, summed up the differences between the young of today, andyesterday better than I ever could.

Some things to ponder.

From CNN,

Pilot and nav on an F15 heading to the Gulf this week, 21 and 23.

KC10 crew intervied last week, captain 23. FO 22. Boom operator 21, crew chief 27.

Avarage age of the guys operating on the decks of the US aircraft carriers, 19.

The surgeon who implanted a kidney in my mum a few years back, 26.

I think it more the individual and the system they operate in rather than saying someone a age x has this much maturity.

[drshmoo]

Congrats to young ladies

:) :) :) :)


Boyz ~ Isn't it more pleasant to sit across and make pleasant conversation with a well kept young female pilot during the long days tearing up and down the east coast in the flying tampons.
;)


Q: Whats min age for a F/A ~ someone made reference to four 18 year old F/A ~ surely to young.:confused:

and again
Congrats to young ladies

[Kaptin M]

Just back after 4 days on the road, and only the quick infrequent glimpse at PPRuNe...feeding the addiction.
Whilst away, I had been thinking about this thread, and some of the issues raised - no the usual, "[They SHOULD have picked me instead of him/her!" - but the age vs age, however in a slightly different context.

Most - but not ALL - humans can be taught skills, and I daresay that by starting at an early age, it would be possible to have a 12 year old (male or female) out-performing our "too young" 21 y.o's :eek:

But that has been argued to death.
The issue I would like to raise, goes back to the WW2 pilots, and those who immediately succeeded them as airline pilots. At the periods of time in which they received their commands at a relatively early age, it was because of a shortage of pilots - in other words a NECESSITY, to allow the burgeoning airline companies to grow with the new demands for their services.
There is NO such shortage today.

It was pretty much the "I'm the CAPTAIN" personality that evolved within the airlines during this era (ala 411A), that was eventually recognised as being an often common CAUSE of incidents and accidents, and eventually resulting in the "discovery" of CRM.
Personal experience of one of these individuals is a recollection of a quip he made to me following a CRM course, "I don't need to waste my time doing all that guff - I already knew it before they started!!". He was one guy who could have done 1,000 CRM courses, and he would still remain THE CAPTAIN, unwilling to consider any opinions other than His.

So the question is not one of whether he or she is too young for the lhs, but whether the time spent in the rhs has been long enough to acquire the psychological and "people-management" skills required for a long, long career in the lhs. Because ultimately, the overall safety of each flight and its payload will depend upon how well (or otherwise) the crew are able to act as a TEAM.

[fartsock]

Woomera,

Fabulous that your female relatives / spouses / whatever have degrees and are high achievers.

I can see how, not being airline pilots, they would misinterpret the heart of the issue in this thread.

Its about experience.

Not about age, sex or how you look.

Airline flying requires experience to develop decision making methodologies which are valid, safe and commerically efficient for all circumstances likely to be encountered in the operating environment.

You can train and employ pilots without this experience, but you open up the holes in Prof Reasons piece of 'liveware' swiss cheese - you are increasing your exposure to risk.

If this wasnt the case, companies would not have minimum requirements, both internal and external.

The entire industry knows that VB is sailing close to the wind in this area. The chief pilot is prepared to accept this because in his judgement the operating environment in Aust is benign enough to get away with it.

I am not making comment on the enthusiasm or manipulative proficiency of the young ladies concerned, but there is no subject for experience and that takes time

FS

[Kaptin M]

Airline flying requires experience to develop decision making methodologies which are valid, safe and commerically efficient for all circumstances likely to be encountered in the operating environment.
"ALL circumstances likely to be encountered in the operating environment."...impossible!
Ask the crew of the Concorde crash a few years ago......ask the crew of the B1900 accident a couple of days ago.
Most - hopefully.
ALL - if only that were possible.

The entire industry knows that VB is sailing close to the wind in this area. The chief pilot is prepared to accept this because in his judgement the operating environment in Aust is benign enough to get away with it.

Then again, on the other hand, fartsock, he (the CP of VB) might happen to have complete CONFIDENCE in the C&T system operating within his airline! :)

[bitter balance]

High experience levels don't innoculate anyone from mishap. All the prangs in Macarthur Job's volume of books have one thing in common - vastly experienced crews.

[slice]

Kaptin M, 411A would be so chuffed to know that he has become a CRM example in the negative sense to the Pprune universe. But I can't help but wonder wether 411A is just a virtual persona. I mean does this guy really act as his posts indicate? I know a couple of years back some Cathay pilots claimed they found out who he really was, due to the fact that online he appears to have a pathalogical hatred of CX pilots, but nobody has ever said if he lives up to his posts. I am interested to know if he does? After all, this is windup central!

[Kaptin M]

Hi slice. I doubt that anyone would really enjoy being remembered as the antithesis of good CRM - even 411A.
After all it would cause all of his (many) espousings to fall into immediate question, if he were the self-confessed "square peg in the round hole", wouldn't it?!

411A comes from the era of pilots who immediately followed the post-WW2 airline recruits - his very noticeable "feature" seeming to be the fact that he was not able to work successfully in an airline in his home country (the USA), and was thus destined to be a "soldier of fortune" as an expat.

"Chuffed" as he might be at seeing his name raised in yet another forum, unfortunately it is NOT mentioned in a postive manner, but rather in a "DON'T be like him" advisory.

As a "virtual persona", he does an admirable job!!
We all love someone to hate - as long as that "someone" isn't ME!

Yes, the CX pilots did discover 411A's identity - but again, for every "character" on PPRuNe, there are probably 100 people in the REAL WORLD whom he/me/you represent in this fairyland.

There is no ONE person behind the personas played out here. :D

Just as Woomera has confessed to being multi-organic....I said ORGANIC....Kaptin M, 411A, Slasher, Amos, Binos, Keg, Gaunty, etc, etc, etc....are the literary morphs of PPRuNe-silent, living beings.
Each occasionally adding some (hopefully) interesting debate and wider horizons.

[I'm with stupid]

Gaunty
whoa there yourself, I don't know how you arrived at the fact that I have a tender ego, you could'nt be further from the mark.
I believe Woomera made reference to a fairly young Wellington Captain, and in the context of his post I thought it fairly reasonable to assume he was saying that a very young person could have a command on a ww2 bomber, as could the person who originally was the subject of this thread, have a command on a 73.
I was pointing out that alot has changed in the last 60 years, and VB have a wealth of experience at their disposal, if indeed, they wanted it. ( which they obviously don't )

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Woomera
Reluctant as i am to say it, i am compelled to comment on your post about 18 year old WW2 pilots and those who introduced the jet age.
Firstly, there was a huge amount of WW2 pilots that never came home, along with their crews, totally due to lack of experience. That is to take nothing away from their courage, and commitment to the job at hand. Just stating a fact. Many of those guys were in those aircraft simply because of the logistics involved in training pilots. It is not a feasible argument to compare those guys and the operations they were undertaking with that of a modern airline and the safety of commercial paying passengers.

Secondly, you are quite true in saying that those fearless aviators who introduced the jet age had a sum total of zero hours experience on jets. It is also fair to say that large numbers of them died learning their craft. Along with many unfortunate passengers. The only reason that we can safely put 20 somethings in the left hand seat of a commercial jet is that the lessons learnt by those who went before us are written in blood and translated into the rules, regs, and SOP's we all now operate with. Not to mention the design rules and certification criteria that exist as a result of lessons learnt.
I want to be clear that i am not against young captains. I have supported the appointment of younger captains on several occasions. I was one once. I just want to make the point that (in my opinion)your argument is not a good one.

[Gnadenburg]

Was it the Beaufighter or the Hudson that had a VMCA 20KTs beyond the usual rotate speed? Put some bombs and rockets and a full load of fuel on and EFATO was always a crash.

Hell of a plane to learn the trade on!

Yep, Bomber Command lost more in training than on ops over Germany. Which is probably why Churchill insisted on multiple(near unsurvivable odds) tours for Colonials-another right Pommy bastard he was!

Weren't the bulk of airline pilots who evolved from WW2 off Dakotas and Catalinas?

Chalk and cheese to civillian ops though.

[mauswara]

sounds like the "new age" has arrived.pilots soon to be phased out in favour of computer systems mngrs.(the FMC used to be a person sitting at a small table, drawing lines on charts.i think he was called a navigator) bitter balance "all the prangs in Mac Jobs vol. of books have one thing in common - vastly experienced crews." back in the good ol' days, you had to start at the bottom of the list, and work your way up.in the '60's,70's & 80's, this meant RHS piston bangers, then turbo props until you reach the Holy Grail- Jets! if you delve a little more deeply into the esteemed Mr. Jobs stories you may notice little gems like; Capt Collins was on his first trip to the Antartic when he encountered Whiteout/ Mt. Erubus. Palm 90, Air Florida B737 crashed into the Potomac River too iced up to fly,the capt had approx. 2400 hrs on type, but less than 8 tkof's "or" ldgs in "falling snow".the f/o ( former F15 pilot by the way) had only operated "twice" before in mod/sev icing. the B727 that CFIT'd at ngt/vis on a rushed appr. into Cincinatti ;the skipper had 14 yrs airline,8 yrs as capt. 14000 hrs (the usual- DC3/4/6 Convair etc.) but less than 25 hrs jet he was ICUS at the time of this accident. the point is, very experienced crews alright, but inexperinced in the phase of the operation in which they came unstuck. Fate is still the Hunter.

[Hudson]

Gnadenburg. I don't know about the Hudson or Beaufighter but both the Meteor and Canberra had Vmca speeds around 40 knots above lift-off speed. If you were quick enough you could reduce power on the live engine and regain yaw control.

Mauswara. Might be generalising too much if you say that all the prangs you mention were low hour pilots on type, and that contributed to the accidents. Probably the most spectacular accident of them all was that which killed over 500 people involving a KLM B747 at Tenerife where the captain had hundreds of hours on type.

[Sheep Guts]

Just to back up Gauntys post regarding Im with Stupids dig at WW2 Vintage Airline Pilots compared to todays Professional aviators.

If we didnt have those WW2 pilots we wouldnt have companies like Cathay Pacific.

Recomended Reading:
In addition to Ernest GannS "Fate is the Hunter", I suggest reading "Beyond Lion Rock" Story of Cathay Pacific. Cathay was founded by a pair of WW2 aviators and Aussie and a Yank.

Regards
Sheep

[bitter balance]

mauswara, my point is that experience does not innoculate you from mishap and I think the accidents you list prove that. With 2400 hours on type the Captain of the Air Florida 737 encountered a situation (falling snow) where his experience did not help him. As did Capt Collins etc

[redsnail]

Hudson,
I agree with you about the KLM captain being very experienced on type. However, he was not very current on line operations as he'd been spending most of his time as a sim instructor.
(IMHO I think his desire to get home was more of a problem)

[ferris]

IMHO young people are very adept at learning something complex, yet repetitious (such as operating a modern jet). But the experience part enables you to better handle the unusual (maybe because you once flew a twin with an engine out/hydraulic failure etc etc.). SOPs are written to try and cover every situation, but there will always be the 'next thing' that no-one has seen before (half the roof comes off/hijackers prising the door open/computer has a bug etc etc).

Even the ability to be cool under pressure. Experience helps.

Maybe oz is benign enough to allow low experience operators to get away with it. But that's what you are doing- 'getting away with it'.

[MAXX]

congratulations to all those pilots who have jobs with an airline.

just have a quick Q?,

whats a bloke supposed to do to get an interview with someone that has dash 8 and bigger.
ive been applying to those airlines for years with not one bite at an interview,whilst continually hearing of younger lower time pilots getting slots
i am mid thirties 5000+hrs 2500+command multi turbo prop,1000 night hrs 13 renewals 500+if time.

i dont want to sound bitter and twisted and certainly dont want to take anything from anyone lucky enough to be called for an interview but jees it would be nice to be at least given a chance at least.

[marshall]

they meet the min req...... what is the problem?

(ohh...... they are doing a man's job!) :D :D :D

[Ramboflyer]

The fact is VB fly people around who know nothing about aviation and to them experience counts.
Word is out and some people will not fly VB for this reason they want to see older experienced crewsit makes them feel at ease.
Nobody ever had a grudge with the AN pilots while they were flying it just seems they were overpaid and underworked and that makes them unsuitable for a flying job with VB.

[Woomera]

The fact is VB fly people around who know nothing about aviation and to them experience counts.
Word is out and some people will not fly VB for this reason they want to see older experienced crewsit makes them feel at ease :rolleyes:
I am rising 57 but for reasons that escape me for the moment, (Grecian 2000 really works :p) most would not put me over 40 on looks, or at least the colour of my hair anyway.:D Does that mean I would be perceived as being less capable than someone who looks his age. :confused:
Or if the youngster has his/her ends tipped to make them look older that they become "more experienced" as a result.

So what is the role of the Regulator in all of this then?

The 'body politic' (the passengers of who you speak) entrust the regulaton of standards and their safety to the Government who in turn set up a Regulator who regulates to accepted "world standards".
There are many here who suggest that they in fact overregulate.
They have given Virgin the big tick by issuing them an HCAOC, the HCAOC has to meet the same standards as those required of Qantas.

So what is the real difference besides one of perception perhaps, and to suggest that "one" is "safer" than the other because the pilots look older is a very long call indeed.

The C & T standards are the same, the management "registered" with the regulator as those fit to make the yes/no decisions on the suitability of "candidates" are essentially "delegates" of CASA and carry the responsibility of the airlines HCAOC and therefore the "business" on their shoulders.

IMHO only, by the above logic the arguments proposed here, are, especially the attitude of those passengers who make a differentiation or are encouraged to do so, moot.

[EPIRB]

Ramboflyer, I did over 900 hours in a twelve month period of which approxiamately six months of that was spent away from my family. Then there were the early starts and late finishes. Don't you think that I deserve appropriate rumuneration for that? Qantas pays similiar. With the duty and flight time dispensation that Ansett had and Qantas has, they don't have to employ as many pilots. Also Ramboflyer, if what you state is fact, why is it that Virgin have taken on around fifty ex AN pilots? For your information Virgin pay well below standard world rates whilst the owner gets richer. Even Air Nauru pay more than Virgin. Fact is that tech crew cost is around $4 per hour per passenger ticket on a 737.

[PEE PPRUNE]

Maybe Virgin Blue can start a cadet course for Pilots.